Interesting, I thought the GTX 750 Ti was not capable of SLI. Perhaps this is a new part?
As for the Darbee effect, I have to wonder how much it will add to the cost of the card. The Darbee Darblet (standalone HDMI passthrough device) retails for $270-$320 alone; I can understand it'll be up to the licensee (Galaxy or whoever) to integrate this into the logic board, potentially cutting costs. But it's likely going to be significantly more expensive over a standard 750 Ti.
Oppo has players that integrate the Darbee processing and they retail for $100 more than the non-Darbee versions. The Lumagen video processors also added it but the cost isn't known on those. So I could see a video card adding it for a markup under $100 since they just need to implement the algorithm and not the full hardware of the Darblet.
I'm not sure what incremental benefit this might offer over *any* nvidia GPU and a madvr+lav filter setup. I don't believe the darbee us anything other than a proprietary mix of a similar approach they bake into hardware they sell. Maybe someone can offer a tangible reason to get this card?
The more important question is Why would anyone want to replicate the monstruosity that is Darbee ? It's just adding tons of Edge enhancement, the very feature that you should always disable on your TV set. For me it's just like over saturated displays : the image looks more punchy in the store, but I would not watch my movies like that.
I have not seen the results first hand, however several HIGHLY respected members on AVS who normally fight against all forms of digital tinkering claim that the Darbee processing is excellent.
you guys need to see it in person. my friend has a Darblet and it makes DVD's look like Blu-rays when in motion from a distance. still captures don't do it justice, and I agree, just make it look oversharpened.
I have an Oppo 103-D with Darbee and I'm an ISF trained calibrator (since 1997). I have a Sony 4k television and a Samsung 8500. The Darbee effect is not just "edge enhancement" or any type of oversaturated anything. It improves any picture...even on the most pristine Blu-rays (albeit at lower levels) it adds a clarity to the picture that is unrivaled. I look forward to Darbee being available on more products; Oppo wouldn't add it to their players if it didn't offer a benefit to the picture; I know that Lumagen has added it and that there are many other manufacturers coming out with products including Darbee. I look forward to using Darbee integrated into my next video card!
My hope is that the Darbee process doesn't make a "lite" version of their product to meet cheaper products' price points.
Oppo wouldn't add it to their players if it didn't offer a benefit to the picture
Oppo add it because people will pay for it. Note that even the highest end TVs ship in 'showroom mode' with massive oversaturation and contrast pushed up to 11. We all know that it looks dire, but it still happens. Hell, just look at how many HD devices ship with overscan on!
You're not going to magic information from nowhere. You can add a sharpening filter to the Luma channel and add a nice chroma blur (or even upsample and interpolate chroma if you have 4:2:0), but none of that requires a dedicated $300 box to do, and none of it will provide any extra visual information.
It's a darn sight better than catering to the oversharpening crowd by adding the filter to the disc through!
Yeah, I'm confused by this...like why would we want it? In my experience any kind of post processing effect is usually bad, save for deinterlacing...
Well, okay, some of Nvidia's video settings are great to punch up a picture for better contrast, particularly on a TN panel, but this doesn't seem like something I'd need or want...
I haven't seen any footage of Darbee in action but just by searching for a few captures in google it does seem to use a unsharp masking filter with something to mitigate the amount of noise introduced back to the image, maybe some edge detection too to prevent/minimize the halos.
Not trying to bash here but it seems to me like you could replicate most if not all of the effect in software using avisynth inside ffdshow in real time.
Whatever they implement, it is clear that a high power CPU/GPU can also perform the same task, and very likely in real time. The point of having a dedicated FPGA is doing it with a good energy efficiency. That would also explain why they launch this concept with a 750Ti, and not with some high-end GPU.
Let's say this addon costs 100$ extra and does all decoding and postprocesing with 10w, now compare it to doing it with the CPU taking 100w(I can decode video and add a fair amount of postprocesing on my old q6600 and that's slower than the slowest i3 on the market), at 12c kWh it would take over 8300 hours for the dedicated solution to start being cost effective, if the average movie is 90 minutes long that would mean over 5500 movies.
Watching two movies per day it would take longer than the useful lifespan of the system for the FPGA addon to actually save money(unless I messed up the math really bad).
I see how this can be worth the money if you like the results and don't want(or can't) to try to replicate them with software but the energy savings angle doesn't convince me.
Your mistake, if I may call it that, is to translate "energy saving" to "money saving". For me, it translates to "less noise", making this card more of a media player / home theater option than a high-end card, or your Q6600, would be.
Also, in countries with a less subsidized power industry, electricity costs up to 35c/kWh.
You can but the setup and reliability of the software when all connected together is a major headache. After 10 years of trying every post processing software out there, the Darbee is by far a better solution. This isn't an all or nothing solution either, you can adjust the amount you would like.
The only thing I would wish for is an hdmi in so you could route other devices through it.
Artificially added "clarity" is NOT clarity, no matter how good the algorithm looks in typical examples. Many people prefer oversaturated colors to accurate colors, and would say they look better, even when presented with accurate color. Does that make oversaturated video "improved" over color-accurate video?
All Darbee does is produce an image alteration that some people subjectively think looks better. That's not an image improvement. It does not improve clarity, because you are not seeing what the source presents better, in any way, you are just introducing differences that were never there to begin with.
The Darbee actually works as more of a contrast enhancement device, which by increasing the contrast between dark and bright areas of the picture creates the effect of added sharpness by adding apparent clarity to the signal. The final look to the human eye is more detail and greater "depth" or 3D-ish feel. It actually works better with higher-quality sources like Blu-ray feeds. The higher quality the source signal, the better Darbee's algorithm works.
And it doesn't add any of the nasty side effects like edge enhancement or "sharpness" tools do.
Some people like it, some don't. I have always eschewed any type of video enhancement tool/process for my calibrated home theater displays, but I found myself really liking what the Darbee can do to my picture when set at lower levels of enhancement (I use the "high-def" mode at around 35-40% on my Darblet)
It's a fair point. If this technology is so great then why doesn't Hollywood use it in its rendering? It doesn't seem like it's all that complicated to introduce into post-production.
The most logical explanation of its lack of use is that the director/editors/cinematographer/etc. think that the effect ruins the aesthetic of their films, which then begs the question of whether you want to see the film as intended or "enhanced" with post-processing.
The only thing I'm looking at here is that nice little SLI idea there. I would love to see more info about that. 750 ti SLI, even at a higher price, is a killer idea.
I just want a card that will all me to quickly render my videos as well as 3D modelling and animation in programs like Maya and Blender (which is what I use). When a gamer gets 200 fps and it takes me 15 minutes to render a high quality 3D model to life like precision, I get disappointed by most graphics cards. Even the 780 Ti is only about twice as fast as my old 650 Ti.
I don't want to have to spend a couple of grand for a good rendering card when you can buy a decent gamer card for $200. Very disappointed in the graphics cards available for things other than gaming. Yes, I know there is much more to rendering...but still.
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AZengus - Thursday, June 5, 2014 - link
Interesting, I thought the GTX 750 Ti was not capable of SLI. Perhaps this is a new part?As for the Darbee effect, I have to wonder how much it will add to the cost of the card. The Darbee Darblet (standalone HDMI passthrough device) retails for $270-$320 alone; I can understand it'll be up to the licensee (Galaxy or whoever) to integrate this into the logic board, potentially cutting costs. But it's likely going to be significantly more expensive over a standard 750 Ti.
cheinonen - Thursday, June 5, 2014 - link
Oppo has players that integrate the Darbee processing and they retail for $100 more than the non-Darbee versions. The Lumagen video processors also added it but the cost isn't known on those. So I could see a video card adding it for a markup under $100 since they just need to implement the algorithm and not the full hardware of the Darblet.praktik - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
I'm not sure what incremental benefit this might offer over *any* nvidia GPU and a madvr+lav filter setup. I don't believe the darbee us anything other than a proprietary mix of a similar approach they bake into hardware they sell. Maybe someone can offer a tangible reason to get this card?SirMaster - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
I've yet to see any software filters match a Darbee in what it does to the perceived video sharpness/clarity.I'm not saying its not possible, but nobody seems to have cracked the formula yet.
BlueScreenJunky - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
The more important question is Why would anyone want to replicate the monstruosity that is Darbee ?It's just adding tons of Edge enhancement, the very feature that you should always disable on your TV set. For me it's just like over saturated displays : the image looks more punchy in the store, but I would not watch my movies like that.
surt - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
+1 ... I look at the Darbee side of the image and think 'yuck'.HisDivineOrder - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
Good. I'm not the only one thinking this looks like a sharpening filter with some contrast "enhancement" (read: mucking).Yeah, I'll skip this "innovation" I think. Just render the image the way it's meant to be rendered.
nathanddrews - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
My first instinct is also *insert Vader No!*I have not seen the results first hand, however several HIGHLY respected members on AVS who normally fight against all forms of digital tinkering claim that the Darbee processing is excellent.
Samus - Monday, June 9, 2014 - link
you guys need to see it in person. my friend has a Darblet and it makes DVD's look like Blu-rays when in motion from a distance. still captures don't do it justice, and I agree, just make it look oversharpened.TheRealAnalogkid - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
I have an Oppo 103-D with Darbee and I'm an ISF trained calibrator (since 1997). I have a Sony 4k television and a Samsung 8500. The Darbee effect is not just "edge enhancement" or any type of oversaturated anything. It improves any picture...even on the most pristine Blu-rays (albeit at lower levels) it adds a clarity to the picture that is unrivaled. I look forward to Darbee being available on more products; Oppo wouldn't add it to their players if it didn't offer a benefit to the picture; I know that Lumagen has added it and that there are many other manufacturers coming out with products including Darbee. I look forward to using Darbee integrated into my next video card!My hope is that the Darbee process doesn't make a "lite" version of their product to meet cheaper products' price points.
edzieba - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
Oppo add it because people will pay for it. Note that even the highest end TVs ship in 'showroom mode' with massive oversaturation and contrast pushed up to 11. We all know that it looks dire, but it still happens. Hell, just look at how many HD devices ship with overscan on!You're not going to magic information from nowhere. You can add a sharpening filter to the Luma channel and add a nice chroma blur (or even upsample and interpolate chroma if you have 4:2:0), but none of that requires a dedicated $300 box to do, and none of it will provide any extra visual information.
It's a darn sight better than catering to the oversharpening crowd by adding the filter to the disc through!
Wolfpup - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
Yeah, I'm confused by this...like why would we want it? In my experience any kind of post processing effect is usually bad, save for deinterlacing...Well, okay, some of Nvidia's video settings are great to punch up a picture for better contrast, particularly on a TN panel, but this doesn't seem like something I'd need or want...
Gauner - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
I haven't seen any footage of Darbee in action but just by searching for a few captures in google it does seem to use a unsharp masking filter with something to mitigate the amount of noise introduced back to the image, maybe some edge detection too to prevent/minimize the halos.Not trying to bash here but it seems to me like you could replicate most if not all of the effect in software using avisynth inside ffdshow in real time.
ShieTar - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
Whatever they implement, it is clear that a high power CPU/GPU can also perform the same task, and very likely in real time. The point of having a dedicated FPGA is doing it with a good energy efficiency. That would also explain why they launch this concept with a 750Ti, and not with some high-end GPU.A5 - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
FPGAs are a lot of things, but "power efficient" isn't usually one of them.Gauner - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
Dunno about ShieTar.Let's say this addon costs 100$ extra and does all decoding and postprocesing with 10w, now compare it to doing it with the CPU taking 100w(I can decode video and add a fair amount of postprocesing on my old q6600 and that's slower than the slowest i3 on the market), at 12c kWh it would take over 8300 hours for the dedicated solution to start being cost effective, if the average movie is 90 minutes long that would mean over 5500 movies.
Watching two movies per day it would take longer than the useful lifespan of the system for the FPGA addon to actually save money(unless I messed up the math really bad).
I see how this can be worth the money if you like the results and don't want(or can't) to try to replicate them with software but the energy savings angle doesn't convince me.
ShieTar - Saturday, June 7, 2014 - link
Your mistake, if I may call it that, is to translate "energy saving" to "money saving". For me, it translates to "less noise", making this card more of a media player / home theater option than a high-end card, or your Q6600, would be.Also, in countries with a less subsidized power industry, electricity costs up to 35c/kWh.
Dug - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
You can but the setup and reliability of the software when all connected together is a major headache.After 10 years of trying every post processing software out there, the Darbee is by far a better solution. This isn't an all or nothing solution either, you can adjust the amount you would like.
The only thing I would wish for is an hdmi in so you could route other devices through it.
Sancus - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
Artificially added "clarity" is NOT clarity, no matter how good the algorithm looks in typical examples. Many people prefer oversaturated colors to accurate colors, and would say they look better, even when presented with accurate color. Does that make oversaturated video "improved" over color-accurate video?All Darbee does is produce an image alteration that some people subjectively think looks better. That's not an image improvement. It does not improve clarity, because you are not seeing what the source presents better, in any way, you are just introducing differences that were never there to begin with.
Shadowmaster625 - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
If I had this card would my SVP still work?Influence - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
The Darbee actually works as more of a contrast enhancement device, which by increasing the contrast between dark and bright areas of the picture creates the effect of added sharpness by adding apparent clarity to the signal. The final look to the human eye is more detail and greater "depth" or 3D-ish feel. It actually works better with higher-quality sources like Blu-ray feeds. The higher quality the source signal, the better Darbee's algorithm works.And it doesn't add any of the nasty side effects like edge enhancement or "sharpness" tools do.
Some people like it, some don't. I have always eschewed any type of video enhancement tool/process for my calibrated home theater displays, but I found myself really liking what the Darbee can do to my picture when set at lower levels of enhancement (I use the "high-def" mode at around 35-40% on my Darblet)
Gnarr - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
So... it's a real time sharpening GPU? Why would anyone want that?Preset post-processing is never going to beat hollywood post-processing, or even no post-processing.
Who are those cards aimed at?
The Von Matrices - Friday, June 6, 2014 - link
It's a fair point. If this technology is so great then why doesn't Hollywood use it in its rendering? It doesn't seem like it's all that complicated to introduce into post-production.The most logical explanation of its lack of use is that the director/editors/cinematographer/etc. think that the effect ruins the aesthetic of their films, which then begs the question of whether you want to see the film as intended or "enhanced" with post-processing.
Tw1stedAltair - Saturday, June 7, 2014 - link
The only thing I'm looking at here is that nice little SLI idea there. I would love to see more info about that. 750 ti SLI, even at a higher price, is a killer idea.DrApop - Monday, June 9, 2014 - link
I just want a card that will all me to quickly render my videos as well as 3D modelling and animation in programs like Maya and Blender (which is what I use). When a gamer gets 200 fps and it takes me 15 minutes to render a high quality 3D model to life like precision, I get disappointed by most graphics cards. Even the 780 Ti is only about twice as fast as my old 650 Ti.I don't want to have to spend a couple of grand for a good rendering card when you can buy a decent gamer card for $200. Very disappointed in the graphics cards available for things other than gaming. Yes, I know there is much more to rendering...but still.
Antronman - Wednesday, June 11, 2014 - link
If you've ever actually seen a gorilla, it looks more like the Darbee off image.