Steam Machine is about open standards. They're making OpenGL fly. They don't want another API that's locked down to one vendor. Hell, not even just one vendor. It's a FRACTION of one vendor since most AMD APU's and any card before the 7xxx series is going to fail to run it, too.
I wouldn't count on seeing Mantle in SteamOS very prominently, if at all.
Yeah, as much as AMD implemented CUDA... No vendor will EVER implement an API designed by a competitor, especially one tailored closely to a fundamentally different hardware architecture, 3rd party open standards like OpenGL are the only solution. And quite frankly, OpenGL is low level enough. Shame on MS for spending so much efforts on preventing developers from using GL in an ill attempt to prevent its monopoly from collapsing.
Of course that assumes that Mantle is significantly different from D3D11.x's low level programming constructs. We won't have the full details until next month, but we are still expecting the two to be highly similar, if not identical in all the important respects. After all, the goal is to ease portability.
Though whether further developers besides DICE pick it up remains to be seen. AMD does need to be able to attract developers to take the time to support Mantle, even if the work is trivial.
"All alligators are crocodiles, but not all crocodiles are alligators"
"Of course that assumes that Mantle is significantly different from D3D11.x's low level programming constructs."
That almost makes it sound like they just "rebadged" Microsoft's API as Mantle. But why would Microsoft go out of there way to state that Mantle will not work on the Xbox One.... and AMD confirmed it would not be on consoles....
Too much marketing, we need one of their software guys in here to clear it all up.
"we need one of their software guys in here to clear it all up."
You'll get no objection there. But for the moment this is all AMD will be saying; the bulk of the details on Mantle will come next month at APU13 when Mantle is closer to shipping. Though keep in mind that the first game isn't due until December anyhow, so there's still plenty of time for analysis before anything ships.
Funny this sounds like AMD pulling one out of Intel's playbook of optimizing for their processors on x86 compilers. Well gotta have the software to make the hardware look good- don't mind as long as we the consumers get the advantage!
An API is not an implementation, it's an interface (thus the I in API). They could replicate the API and ABI of the consoles (and they should and likely will given what their stated goal is). That doesn't mean that they don't have their own implementation under the hood, it just means that when a programmer calls the foo function, it's there and callable.
You could just admit you were wrong when you implied Mantle is the same as the low level API MS is using for Xbox One. I mean, seriously. That nonsense has spread across the internet now. The least you could do is acknowledge that what you "suspected" turned out not to be the case.
If someone at AMD truly implied that to you, you should go back to them and let them know what you think of their implying untruth to you. You'll be much like the people who believed the AMD PR guy who "implied" Bulldozer performance that didn't turn out to be based in reality.
I think he just made an educated guess on that and I don't think he was that far off. If you looked at the actual low level code it would probably be very similar, a few header or operand differences. It probably could have been worded more carefully, instead of saying "same" it could've been "similar", just not compatible.
But I agree, certain people have taken what was written and just ran with it making all kinds of links to Mantle and the consoles that did need to be cleared up. I'm glad MS did so sooner rather than later.
I would like to see at this point optimization for the already abundant resources a mainstream computer already has as at this point. Before moving forward with hardware manufacturers on the hardware and software side should stife and reiterate previous models with a more designed focus on optimizing it for Linux and Windows before we move forward.
While I would like to see more games that take advantage of AMD's 8 core I would also like to see hyperthreading properly implemented in non-half assed ways into the games core engine, and of course SLI and Crossfire hardware and software specs that surpass what we already have for the 4k revolution about to hit us like a brick wall with the next few years as mainstream.
I know this is a pipedream because the hardware typically moves at a pace where things can get outpaced quickly, and software manufacturers can't keep up, but we already have seen problems with Vista, most people will say it was 1 of Msofts worst flops, the truth for people whom know what they are talking about realized that Vista marked the birth of stable(after a couple months release) 64 bit home use as xp pro 64bit had no support what so ever. Vendors drivers were the cause of most of the problems and by the time 7 was released a better optimized and looking version of Vista, 8 strikes me like Vista and Millenium, and 9 will be the perfected version. Msoft has to be the middleground between the walled garden and completely free ballin Linux, but this is no excuse for non-polished OSs and lack of co-operative efforts with hardware and software segments.
To move forward we first have to look and analyze backwards, most of the power we can leverage is wasted on non-optimized segments consoles have proven that even outdated hardware that is standardized can look amazing when properly taken advantage of.
Dice apparently got paid 8Million to pick it up. Considering AMD is almost bankrupt I expect nobody else to pick it up. Unless AMD makes some money soon. But that would require them to quit giving away free games, make better drivers, and actually make some cpu's worth buying vs. Intel.
So, as i've said before, MANTLE is DEAD. Bring on OpenGL games! I'm hoping DirectX is right behind Mantle (along with consoles...ROFL). All dead. Everything can run OpenGL, so this is where they will all migrate. SteamOS couldn't have come along at a better time. MS will have a hard time competing with FREE (android and steamos).
Yeah, if Mantle isn't (more or less) running on one or both consoles, it's dead. More important to focus on getting Direct3D/DirectX and OpenGL as good as possible.
"Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC."
But now...
"The fact that Mantle isn’t supported comes as no surprise"
Which is why that's a one-way arrow in our API diagram. It's our belief that Mantle is the Xbox One's low level API brought to the PC; but it's not a low level PC API brought to the Xbox One. The symmetric property wouldn't apply here.
"Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC"
Overall, I've been confused by AT's obsession with the Xbone API, considering the Xbone and PS4 are near identical on paper. Anyway, try re-reading that above statement a couple times. The key words are "brought to the PC". I don't believe this was ever literally, specifically the Xbone API, but AMD's PC equivalent. At least, I never interpreted it that way. If that's what AT meant, then it's definitely wrong, but figuratively it is spot on.
Mantle isn't an API for Xbone, but is a means for games to achieve low-level calls using GCN GPUs on Windows/Mac/Linux. AMD plans to use Mantle the same way Microsoft uses their own low-level calls. Compatible? Likely not. Effectively similar? Yes.
I'm looking forward to more information. So far I can't say I'm a fan of the way AMD has handled this launch. I've nearly lost interest in Hawaii. At this point it would have to dominate Titan and be priced significantly lower in order to live up to AMD's hype.
The reason why I don't understand the insistence that the Mantle api is so similar to low level dx is that the point was made, several times, that Mantle is intended to be x-platform. With that in mind, is dx's low level constructs the best possible to represent GCN? If AT thinks so I'd love to know why.
Agreed. I don't get this, either. I mean, it was very specific. It was all about Xbone specifically, not PS4. Nothing about OpenGL. It was specifically Xbone, specifically the Xbone API, and I'm not sure where they were getting that from EXCEPT FROM AMD on the side.
Mantle is Dead Before Arrival, All your assumptions were crushed with that Direct3D 11.x blogpost, Just accept your assumptions were wrong or don't accept it but please don't further push that theory on a reputed site like Anandtech.
The blogpost does not disprove the theory that AMD's Mantle is largely identical to the Xbone's API. Don't further push your foolishness on a reputed site like Anandtech.
Those who claim wild things need to prove their claims not disprove you idioit, That Direct3D blogpost has soundly smashed the theory that xbox low-level API and Mantle are same or similar, this was just a wild assumption which has become a laughing fodder for normal people with brain whereas creatures like you who possess Pea-sized brain are still supporting this stupid theory.
Thanks for covering the most interesting bits of the blog post Ryan. If anything, I think all the talk of Mantle and especially SteamOS has lit a fire under Microsoft's proverbial ass to improve DX on the PC. I'm really looking forward to the optimizations they can bring from the XB1's version of DX to the PC version.
Any guesses on how they will do that? Looking on the OpenGL side of things, Valve and Nvidia have been boasting about vendor specific optimizations and OpenGL extensions that expose additional hardware functionality, like bindless graphics, that offer tremendous speed-ups over DX. Do you think it's possible MS incorporates vendor-specific optimizations in DX for the PC going forward?
Even if MS makes improvements to D3D, will they make them available in Windows 7? A huge chunk of PC gamers are still on Windows 7, and game developers would be forced to target the common denominator. This is another major reason why the industry needs to move over to OpenGL. Having a dependency on a single company with its own narrow motives is insane.
I agree Microsoft's position to force upgrade to Win8 for DX11.1/2 optimizations has been frustrating. But I think the hope, with these revelations about increased DX development on Windows, is that Microsoft will relent from this position and also push these upgrades down to Win7. I think they view the SteamOS/OpenGL threat to Windows/DX as very real on the PC, what better way to disrupt that momentum and prevent widespread adoption than to offer similar performance improvements/optimizations on all existing DX11 platforms? Last I checked, I believe Win7 held an astounding 90% share of Steam survey machines.
I agree with the concerns about a single company holding sway over an entire platform, but I also think in the big picture, a single API/OS for the PC platform is still the better way to go to keep it in a strong position against the console competition. Stratification with multiple platforms, APIs, low-level vendor specific APIs is a bad way to go imo. It reminds me far too much of the early days of PC gaming when you had serious issues with different PC platforms: PC/IBM compatible, Mac, and Amiga.
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Fatgigs - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
I'd to see you guys talk more about this on the next podcast. Thanks.Wreckage - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Mantle is dead even before it launched. Without console support, no developer will want to maintain 2 code paths for no reason.Kevin G - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Mantle could still exist on the PS4 side of things, thus giving it a console connection.Then there is potential for it to exist on the Steam Box too.
Wreckage - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
AMD has confirmed that Mantle is "PC only"HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Steam Machine is about open standards. They're making OpenGL fly. They don't want another API that's locked down to one vendor. Hell, not even just one vendor. It's a FRACTION of one vendor since most AMD APU's and any card before the 7xxx series is going to fail to run it, too.I wouldn't count on seeing Mantle in SteamOS very prominently, if at all.
Gigaplex - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
The Mantle API isn't locked to one vendor, AMD have said that others are free to implement it.ddriver - Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - link
Yeah, as much as AMD implemented CUDA... No vendor will EVER implement an API designed by a competitor, especially one tailored closely to a fundamentally different hardware architecture, 3rd party open standards like OpenGL are the only solution. And quite frankly, OpenGL is low level enough. Shame on MS for spending so much efforts on preventing developers from using GL in an ill attempt to prevent its monopoly from collapsing.banvetor - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Dear Nvidia employee,Thanks for sharing your comments.
Sincerely,
Everyone else.
Ryan Smith - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Of course that assumes that Mantle is significantly different from D3D11.x's low level programming constructs. We won't have the full details until next month, but we are still expecting the two to be highly similar, if not identical in all the important respects. After all, the goal is to ease portability.Though whether further developers besides DICE pick it up remains to be seen. AMD does need to be able to attract developers to take the time to support Mantle, even if the work is trivial.
"All alligators are crocodiles, but not all crocodiles are alligators"
Wreckage - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
"Of course that assumes that Mantle is significantly different from D3D11.x's low level programming constructs."That almost makes it sound like they just "rebadged" Microsoft's API as Mantle. But why would Microsoft go out of there way to state that Mantle will not work on the Xbox One.... and AMD confirmed it would not be on consoles....
Too much marketing, we need one of their software guys in here to clear it all up.
Ryan Smith - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
"we need one of their software guys in here to clear it all up."You'll get no objection there. But for the moment this is all AMD will be saying; the bulk of the details on Mantle will come next month at APU13 when Mantle is closer to shipping. Though keep in mind that the first game isn't due until December anyhow, so there's still plenty of time for analysis before anything ships.
MADDER1 - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Funny this sounds like AMD pulling one out of Intel's playbook of optimizing for their processors on x86 compilers. Well gotta have the software to make the hardware look good- don't mind as long as we the consumers get the advantage!chadwilson - Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - link
An API is not an implementation, it's an interface (thus the I in API). They could replicate the API and ABI of the consoles (and they should and likely will given what their stated goal is). That doesn't mean that they don't have their own implementation under the hood, it just means that when a programmer calls the foo function, it's there and callable.HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
You could just admit you were wrong when you implied Mantle is the same as the low level API MS is using for Xbox One. I mean, seriously. That nonsense has spread across the internet now. The least you could do is acknowledge that what you "suspected" turned out not to be the case.If someone at AMD truly implied that to you, you should go back to them and let them know what you think of their implying untruth to you. You'll be much like the people who believed the AMD PR guy who "implied" Bulldozer performance that didn't turn out to be based in reality.
chizow - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
I think he just made an educated guess on that and I don't think he was that far off. If you looked at the actual low level code it would probably be very similar, a few header or operand differences. It probably could have been worded more carefully, instead of saying "same" it could've been "similar", just not compatible.But I agree, certain people have taken what was written and just ran with it making all kinds of links to Mantle and the consoles that did need to be cleared up. I'm glad MS did so sooner rather than later.
1Angelreloaded - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
I would like to see at this point optimization for the already abundant resources a mainstream computer already has as at this point. Before moving forward with hardware manufacturers on the hardware and software side should stife and reiterate previous models with a more designed focus on optimizing it for Linux and Windows before we move forward.While I would like to see more games that take advantage of AMD's 8 core I would also like to see hyperthreading properly implemented in non-half assed ways into the games core engine, and of course SLI and Crossfire hardware and software specs that surpass what we already have for the 4k revolution about to hit us like a brick wall with the next few years as mainstream.
I know this is a pipedream because the hardware typically moves at a pace where things can get outpaced quickly, and software manufacturers can't keep up, but we already have seen problems with Vista, most people will say it was 1 of Msofts worst flops, the truth for people whom know what they are talking about realized that Vista marked the birth of stable(after a couple months release) 64 bit home use as xp pro 64bit had no support what so ever. Vendors drivers were the cause of most of the problems and by the time 7 was released a better optimized and looking version of Vista, 8 strikes me like Vista and Millenium, and 9 will be the perfected version. Msoft has to be the middleground between the walled garden and completely free ballin Linux, but this is no excuse for non-polished OSs and lack of co-operative efforts with hardware and software segments.
To move forward we first have to look and analyze backwards, most of the power we can leverage is wasted on non-optimized segments consoles have proven that even outdated hardware that is standardized can look amazing when properly taken advantage of.
TheJian - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Dice apparently got paid 8Million to pick it up. Considering AMD is almost bankrupt I expect nobody else to pick it up. Unless AMD makes some money soon. But that would require them to quit giving away free games, make better drivers, and actually make some cpu's worth buying vs. Intel.So, as i've said before, MANTLE is DEAD. Bring on OpenGL games! I'm hoping DirectX is right behind Mantle (along with consoles...ROFL). All dead. Everything can run OpenGL, so this is where they will all migrate. SteamOS couldn't have come along at a better time. MS will have a hard time competing with FREE (android and steamos).
HunterKlynn - Friday, October 18, 2013 - link
Something something "year of the Linux desktop!"ufon68 - Saturday, October 19, 2013 - link
Too bad you can't tell the difference between directx, direct3d and openGL. Also too bad that doesn't prevent you from voicing your opinion on these.jasonelmore - Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - link
I doubt other developers will use mantle unless paid by AMD like DICE was paid anywhere from 8-12 million for the BF4 Mantle Contract.Wolfpup - Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - link
Yeah, if Mantle isn't (more or less) running on one or both consoles, it's dead. More important to focus on getting Direct3D/DirectX and OpenGL as good as possible.StealthGhost - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
"Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC."But now...
"The fact that Mantle isn’t supported comes as no surprise"
Well it is to me! I read your stuff!
Ryan Smith - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Which is why that's a one-way arrow in our API diagram. It's our belief that Mantle is the Xbox One's low level API brought to the PC; but it's not a low level PC API brought to the Xbox One. The symmetric property wouldn't apply here.MADDER1 - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Ironically that seems like a DirectX is waste if they can get 9x Draw calls with Mantle. That means Direct 11.x is that much better?nathanddrews - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
"Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC"Overall, I've been confused by AT's obsession with the Xbone API, considering the Xbone and PS4 are near identical on paper. Anyway, try re-reading that above statement a couple times. The key words are "brought to the PC". I don't believe this was ever literally, specifically the Xbone API, but AMD's PC equivalent. At least, I never interpreted it that way. If that's what AT meant, then it's definitely wrong, but figuratively it is spot on.
Mantle isn't an API for Xbone, but is a means for games to achieve low-level calls using GCN GPUs on Windows/Mac/Linux. AMD plans to use Mantle the same way Microsoft uses their own low-level calls. Compatible? Likely not. Effectively similar? Yes.
I'm looking forward to more information. So far I can't say I'm a fan of the way AMD has handled this launch. I've nearly lost interest in Hawaii. At this point it would have to dominate Titan and be priced significantly lower in order to live up to AMD's hype.
Hrel - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
I love calling it "xbone".tuxRoller - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
The reason why I don't understand the insistence that the Mantle api is so similar to low level dx is that the point was made, several times, that Mantle is intended to be x-platform. With that in mind, is dx's low level constructs the best possible to represent GCN? If AT thinks so I'd love to know why.HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Agreed. I don't get this, either. I mean, it was very specific. It was all about Xbone specifically, not PS4. Nothing about OpenGL. It was specifically Xbone, specifically the Xbone API, and I'm not sure where they were getting that from EXCEPT FROM AMD on the side.AMD Center perchance?
BMNify - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Mantle is Dead Before Arrival, All your assumptions were crushed with that Direct3D 11.x blogpost, Just accept your assumptions were wrong or don't accept it but please don't further push that theory on a reputed site like Anandtech.kyuu - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
The blogpost does not disprove the theory that AMD's Mantle is largely identical to the Xbone's API. Don't further push your foolishness on a reputed site like Anandtech.BMNify - Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - link
Those who claim wild things need to prove their claims not disprove you idioit, That Direct3D blogpost has soundly smashed the theory that xbox low-level API and Mantle are same or similar, this was just a wild assumption which has become a laughing fodder for normal people with brain whereas creatures like you who possess Pea-sized brain are still supporting this stupid theory.HunterKlynn - Friday, October 18, 2013 - link
Big man with his big ad hominem.chizow - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Thanks for covering the most interesting bits of the blog post Ryan. If anything, I think all the talk of Mantle and especially SteamOS has lit a fire under Microsoft's proverbial ass to improve DX on the PC. I'm really looking forward to the optimizations they can bring from the XB1's version of DX to the PC version.Any guesses on how they will do that? Looking on the OpenGL side of things, Valve and Nvidia have been boasting about vendor specific optimizations and OpenGL extensions that expose additional hardware functionality, like bindless graphics, that offer tremendous speed-ups over DX. Do you think it's possible MS incorporates vendor-specific optimizations in DX for the PC going forward?
jwcalla - Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - link
Even if MS makes improvements to D3D, will they make them available in Windows 7? A huge chunk of PC gamers are still on Windows 7, and game developers would be forced to target the common denominator. This is another major reason why the industry needs to move over to OpenGL. Having a dependency on a single company with its own narrow motives is insane.chizow - Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - link
I agree Microsoft's position to force upgrade to Win8 for DX11.1/2 optimizations has been frustrating. But I think the hope, with these revelations about increased DX development on Windows, is that Microsoft will relent from this position and also push these upgrades down to Win7. I think they view the SteamOS/OpenGL threat to Windows/DX as very real on the PC, what better way to disrupt that momentum and prevent widespread adoption than to offer similar performance improvements/optimizations on all existing DX11 platforms? Last I checked, I believe Win7 held an astounding 90% share of Steam survey machines.http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
I agree with the concerns about a single company holding sway over an entire platform, but I also think in the big picture, a single API/OS for the PC platform is still the better way to go to keep it in a strong position against the console competition. Stratification with multiple platforms, APIs, low-level vendor specific APIs is a bad way to go imo. It reminds me far too much of the early days of PC gaming when you had serious issues with different PC platforms: PC/IBM compatible, Mac, and Amiga.
Haider - Tuesday, October 15, 2013 - link
Hmmm like Java and Perl? Pretty similar code...