I still don't understand how people can't distinguish between simply being able to connect a Windows PC to a TV, and NOT wanting to. There are many reasons why people don't want to. By this logic, why do people buy tablets? When they can easily just take a cheap laptop? Sure this is an argument some confused people make, but we should know better by now...
How about the Steaming Heterogeneous Entertainment Attainment Portal? I think it could work... though people may start abbreviating that last part, eh?
I really hope this ends up spurring universal support for linux in the gaming world. Microsoft just keeps making terrible decisions and are killing their OS. Which is impressive considering they have a monopoly. (I'm referring to the unusable Windows 8.1).
Gaming is really the only thing stopping Linux from finally killing off Windows as a home PC platform once and for all. I'm cautiously optimistic that in the near future (pre-2020) we won't be exclusively reliant on Microsoft for a home based OS. Chrome OS is neat I guess, but it's not really useful for much. If I can't unplug my router and still be able to work then the machine is useless. It's just absurd to think cloud based computing is viable. You can't have any expectation of privacy, realistically, and if everyone ever does go to cloud then they'll have you, and they'll raise prices consistently and there won't be anything anyone can do about it.
"Microsoft just keeps making terrible decisions and are killing their OS. Which is impressive considering they have a monopoly. (I'm referring to the unusable Windows 8.1)."
You're wrong. Windows 8.1 is their best OS to date.
If you are unable to use a mouse to click on larger tiles vs icons, I just don't know what to say. Also....it has a full, functional desktop, that is in no way, zero zilch, hampered. (desktops)
The start button is overrated and should have been done away with since 98', it's unfortunate that it has lasted this long.
You've got it the wrong way round. A computer mouse allows single pixel precision, therefore if a button is large it's just as functional as a small button, but taking up way more space where information could be displayed. You have to move the mouse around more, get less info on one screen, so you're always always scrolling, it's not a good UI for desktop. Good for tablets so fatasses can press big buttons with their porkchop fingers.
Windows 8.1 rocks, if you are not able to use it then its your pea-sized brain's fault, if you don't like metro ui then just install startisback or start8.
You Linux fanatics are funny, want to kill windows and further establish the monopoly that is Steam but your dreams will be shattered when this experiment remains at less than 5% of worldwide PC-gaming market even after all the big hype.
There's also ClassicShell which is a free alternative to start8, and imo actually works better. Those who want aero glass can also lookup BigMuscle's aero glass utility. Adds it back into windows 8 natively, and soon to be 8.1 support as well.
Its not a question of not able, its a question of not willing. Way to put a spin on it.
If these solutions exist from 3rd party, and people will only upgrade because of these solutions, anyone would have thought that ms would just implement their own alternative to metro, the one people want. They turned 180 on the Xbox one, why so hesitant with windows? People can use metro, they just plain don't want to. Its nothing to do with capability to use it. Even my dad, a plain Jane average Joe computer user, hated metro so googled a workaround. Look at 8's sales records. I myself used vista up until a month ago, happily, but I and others will most likely agree that despite being usable, it had serious issues.
So we're going from a start menu with a alphabetized listing of installed programmes, and graphical icon shortcuts whereever you want them on the desktop, to... a bunch of radomly placed icons that don't fit on one desktop... and THAT'S an improvement?
There are a very large number of things keeping Linux from killing off Windows on the desktop, and I say this as a former Linux zealot. The "year of Linux" on the desktop is never coming, unless one or multiple large (well funded) companies takes the kernel, the GNU tools, and puts a hell of a lot of polish on it (similar to what Apple did with the Mach kernel and some BSD bits). Grandma isn't going to be able to get her new printer from Best Buy set up with CUPS. It's still an OS for people who like to tinker, and that rules out almost the entirety of the home desktop market.
Yeah, if only there was a large company invested in Linux. Perhaps in Mountain View, California which could take Linux and have a version of it pre-loaded on laptops which boot quickly and hypothetically launch a fast web browser. The next thing you'd know they'd have it on SmartPhones and tablets.
Your attempt at sarcasm isn't what I was referring to. The always online, cheap (minus the Pixel), your world is a web browser Chrome OS isn't my ideal situation. And it's not really what the person I responded to was talking about. I mean this fool's dream of 'Linux on the desktop' where distros like Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse "kill off Windows". There isn't remotely enough cohesion or polish in those experiences for that to happen. Chrome OS has a future, but it isn't pushing high-end gaming or becoming the OS the majority of the people use at home or work. The pricing of those devices make them ideal for developing markets, but those are the same markets that have the hardest time dealing with an OS designed around the fact that you've almost always got a good internet connection. And we're less than a week away from a world where Chromebooks will have to compete with sub $300 quad core Bay Trail Windows 8.1 tablets with full copies of Office (Home & Student). At that point price is almost gone from the equation and Chrome OS has to grow on its even simpler UX and security.
What I meant was something much more akin to OS X than Chrome OS. Perhaps some tie-up from someone like Intel and another company that takes the kernel, GNU tools, Wayland, picks one damn UI framework for all of the core apps (e.g. QT), and actually builds a compelling user experience. The trick is, who will sink all of that money in and how do they monetize their effort? Google's is easy, close ties to all of the Google services and corresponding ads. But will we see anyone build a great "full" (non-mobile only) OS based on Linux that ends up ruling the desktop?
I completely disagree with you on this. What rock have you been living in that Windows doesn't ever have driver issues? I have found that, on the contrary, Linux (let's call it Ubuntu really) is incredibly plug and play friendly. I can name example after example of real world things I've seen with my own eyes ... where, for example, my HP 1320 laserjet sometimes was difficult to install on Windows (although not recently, it's very "plug and play" lately) and just worked on Linux. Likewise for a scanner that I just gave up trying to use under Windows.
I will say this about Linux, the very latest and very greatest usually don't work super fantastic. However, grandma isn't buying a super modern machine.
I've put grandma on Linux and BECAUSE there was no built-in expertise/intuition on Windows anyway, she had a slightly easier time.
Another example: You can open all documents you want to open with Ubuntu. Unlike Windows where you can't open anything by default and have to get external sources to handle that software. Be it MS Office or not, my point is that it's very much not built in which is incredibly confusing to Grandma.
The card games, majong and all that stuff that older people absolutely love are also part of the appeal with Linux. Harder for them to get viruses and end up with weird toolbars and stuff.
Anyhow, I don't buy this premise as to why Windows "has a monopoly", I think Windows is just better and proprietary and Windows + Office = pretty functional for most people. I would argue that the monopoly time is already over though, you can absolutely find and acquire Linux for free right now. You can absolutely find and acquire a Mac right now.
The rationale is probably exactly what Gabe has said on numerous occasions: they want to get an open entertainment platform into the living room before Apple establishes their closed platform there.
Gabe wants to further establish his Steam monopoly on the PC-gaming market, nothing else!! I like steam as just one client to get games, just like origin and other options available on Windows instead of supporting a proprietary DRM-induced closed platform like steam.
I have to agree with Mr. Walton's assessment; these are just PCs in custom cases. I really don't see how they're supposed to be some kind of paradigm shift in gaming. They offer nothing that I can't already do on my gaming rig -- in fact, they offer less since there's a large catalog of games I wouldn't be able to play on it. Unless I was streaming... but I could do that with a laptop doing double-duty as an HTPC.
Even if you really hate Microsoft and/or Windows 8, you can already make a PC and install a Linux distro on it. What's the big deal with these things?
Some people can't see past hardware. Maybe these are the ones that praise Samsung, because all they can see is specs =P, and can't see it's on a crappy body with a crappy touchwiz? =P
Anyways, the big deal about SteamOS is that it's a platform, it isn't really about the hardware. It's promised to be a flexible one, and open one, and should have features to compete with consoles, and pc's. Anand himself has said MS could have turned Xbox into a platform, not made a console... etc. The space needs to evolve. We should all welcome such changes.
Isn't the PS4 going to be running a Linux based OS? If so then AMD will probably have already helped develop better Linux drivers, and more then likely some version of the Mantel API for it as well. Which may give them the same benefit it does on the Windows side, where developers using Mantel to develop for the XBO can push the same benefits to a PC game. Developers writing for PS4 would have an easier time moving it to a Steambox with a similar OS that could potentially use the same rendering path for AMD hardware.
I see not point, i repeat, NO POINT, in building such a rig with such powerful hardware and NOT installing Windows on it. You'll save what, 100$ With 600$+ worth of GPU alone?
And i see a point not to encourage too much Steam and promoting some competition into game e-retaillers. Right now steam is basically alone. So the argument to kill the windows monopoly to promote the steam monopoly doesn't hold.
Microsoft should have tried a similar route. An XBOX certification program that would make a PC strong enough to play XBONE games with a Xbox mode incorporated into windows. (AMD should make 8 core jaguar available to the PC). Or simply an Xbox app in windows 8. You could still use you steam app too with big screen mode. Best of both world.
Promoting competition in game retailers would only be necessary if Steam started over-charging. As it is, I resent if I have to install crap like Origin (all hail the Ori) on my PC, when Steam works so well.
"Promoting competition in game retailers would only be necessary if Steam started over-charging"
How about those people who feel they are overcharging now? Competition is ALWAYS good, and with good alternatives, you will see lower prices and better features and support. Valve is doing nothing more than trying to take a foothold of the market by exploiting steam's popularity. The real fix is to come up with a viable alternative to the way steam works now. My proposal is to have digital distribution models based on protocols that can be implemented and shipped with a third party client, very similar to how third party IM clients work today. This way, Valve, EA, Ubisoft etc can all have their own stores, own method of managing digital distribution under a single standardized model with no intrusion on the end user other than entering account information for each separate account. After that, you will see more games and better prices as publishers open their doors to better rates for people like indie developers. Don't like that Valve takes a 30% cut of your profit? Go to competitor A or B who only takes 20%. Each publisher can get an equal share at distributing games while saving money on their end and offering end users better value.
once a Steam monopoly is established you will start giving a crap, i use Steam and origin too specially after that last Origin Humble-Bundle deal, even use GOG sometimes, more competition in Digital distribution sector is good.
They started overcharging when they put in place regions and 1$ = 1€ rate several years ago. In Europe games on steam are usually up to 30% more expensive than in retail (e-shop), sometimes even two times more expensive.
Please don't misuse the word monopoly. Neither Microsoft nor Windows are a monopoly. Windows simply has a large marketshare.
"...right now. If a free OS would run the games you wanted to play, why would you spend $100+ on Windows?" Ever think that some people actually like Windows? I for one happen to like the Windows environment. I do heavy amounts of C/C++ programming and I've never once enjoyed my experience programming in Linux (it's a nightmare and I cannot stand the APIs) and I've never once enjoyed using Linux anytime I've ever had to. To be quite frank, you couldn't pay *me* to use Linux.
So that i can use a proper OS with all the paid-for programs and games, not to forget MS Office which is the Gold standard in the industry and proper support for all the 3rd party peripherals.
Besides, Windows 8 upgrade cost was just $40, students get it for free and even the price of $100 for a OS which will be useful for many years is not significant.
Also, I can use the steam client on windows which has all the AAA games, Origin, Amazon Digital and GOG digital publishing services with no vendor-lock unlike the proprietary steamOS.
Then it's not for you lol. Doesn't mean people couldn't make do without Windows.
Why are people so threatened by what is supposed to be an expansion of a platform. You that insist on Windows will always have your Windows, MS isn't going anywhere. Keep building your Win PC's, SteamOS isn't yet for you, move along.
I always wondered what it would take engineering wise to have an enthusiast grade igpu from amd. Perhaps we would have to wait until we have truly heterogeneous compute in a single package, but a super beefed up version of what is in the ps4 would always seem interesting.
Of course rhe rub is delivering that much power to a socket and then dissipating all that heat. I wonder if the engineering for the 5ghz chips that pump 200+ watts into a chip is some kind of prep for seeing what is available. I know that needs water cooling but you could get some fairly small form factors if it is all in a single die.
They're setting themselves (and others) to have an OS that won't abandon the user-installed application model that Windows 8 seems to suggest is on the way out. Microsoft seems less vested in continuing the current application model Windows (and even OSX) is known for and instead focused on mimicking the app store in the long run.
Valve knows this will shut them out of the digital marketplace at MS's leisure, which is encouraging them to get Linux up to par immediately. They tried just integrating Steam into Linux, but that's just not enough to compel publishers to see Linux as a viable alternative.
But the time is right. If AMD is to be believed and middleware (engines) are the future of interoperability, then getting the Steam Machine in the heads of developers of those engines right now is key because right now is the shift from console to console for the next gen. Right now is the key moment for the next 5-10 years before another such cycle happens.
If developers are already going to be coding OpenGL for PS4, OpenGL for PS3, OpenGL for Android, OpenGL for Apple anything, then they might as well code OpenGL for Linux/SteamOS. That's what they're trying to make obvious. Look at the Steam controller. It has nearly every feature of a PS4 controller (including the d-pad when used for weapon swapping, etc, if you count the four buttons around the touchscreen) excluding the gyros and PS move functionality. That is, it has all the essentials.
I see SteamOS and Steam Machines as Valve's attempt to legitimize Linux as a gaming platform ahead of MS actually killing application support in favor of apps only purchased through their app store. If you think they wouldn't do that, look at how much they LOVE Xbox and remember that's precisely what that platform is. Locked in purchases that don't even transfer from generation to generation, compelling you to buy the same games again and again.
Valve's trying to get Linux up to par BEFORE Microsoft might make such a transition. Why? Because if Microsoft is eventually going to make the argument, "Well, so what if you can't run your applications and are going to an all new platform? You'll have all the apps you ever want on the new platform!"
To which, Valve wants to reply, "Well, if you're going to switch platforms anyway, you might as well switch to SteamOS since you're losing all your old applications regardless, but at least with Steam you'll have all your old licenses for Linux-versions of many of your games."
That's what SteamOS is really doing. Backing MS into a corner where if they try to do a platform lockdown, they'll suffer a huge amount of attrition for doing it. Even if SteamOS doesn't destroy Windows (and it probably won't especially at first), it could serve as a "Google Chrome" for the OS market. Pushing a certain amount of performance and feature parity to keep things moving at a pace more conducive to active progression.
Google doesn't care if Chrome wins the browser wars. They just want it to be enough of a player to compel the other guys to keep moving and improving. Same goes for SteamOS and the Steam Machines that will legitimize it.
Jarred, I belive the argument is that current Windows versions (Vista, 7, 8) are not currently walled gardens. Given how popular legacy versions of windows (XP probably the best example) were/still are, it's going to take a great deal of time to convince the majority of users to upgrade anytime soon - especially as the price for Win8.1 is now essentially full-price for an OEM license (I know that Win7Prox64 works just fine for me - both at home and the office).
Gabe has publicly voiced his concern that Win will go to a curated walled garden model on numerous soap boxes, which is the stated reason for pushing a Linux-oriented strategy.
My biggest head-scratcher about the Steam Machines initiative is that the prototypes, if in a case as small as has been bandied about (12x12x3), could generate amounts of heat that would be problematic at best to cool or keep to an acceptable living room degree of quiet. Falcon charges a huge premium for the Tiki and that thing only has watercooling for the CPU. Put a Titan in a Steam Machine and you'll have to underclock or undervolt the thing to keep the thermals manageable in that SFF chassis. Oh and how do you fit an effective cooling solution in there with that small a volume of case?! Even if you somehow managed to watercool the GPU, you would still need a respectable amount of airflow for the radiator. Thoughts?
The PC platform is dying out and will be replaced by Gaming Consoles and Laptops/Tablets. It only makes sense if you see these beta machines as an advertising ploy to get peoples' attention and introduce the Nvidia fanboys to the adaptability of SteamOS. After the public is introduced to the OS and decide they want to install it on their gaming machine and hook it up to their TV (or build a second machine for their kids, or buy a pre-built Steam Box) they will decide that Linux is a more friendly alternative to gaming than Windows (due to the gaming-specific optimizations) and will leave Windows to the realm of Office PCs, Laptops and Tablets, which is where Windows is headed anyways.
A Steam Machine with two graphics cards, one of them AMD, would be the best of both worlds - use one graphics card for Linux, and the other for Windows running in a virtual machine via VGA passthrough, which many AMD cards allow. Then, you can switch between Linux and Windows games just by choosing a different HDMI input on your receiver or TV - no streaming or rebooting necessary.
I would like to see the performance of such a setup. My initial impression would be that it would likely suffer from all the virtualization, but it'd still be cool to get some numbers. I haven't used it, so I'm unaware of how well it works in practice. If Windows games take a 30% performance hit, for example, that wouldn't attract many people. In that case, people might find the slightly higher latency to be a good tradeoff to retaining high throughput performance.
I think Valve is throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks. If Steam Machines trigger a Linux gaming era, they'll go with that, mainly big, beefy hardware. If it's most popular as a streaming service that also has some native game capability, they'll cut it down to whatever will run the few native games acceptably. Or perhaps it will fit some other niche - LAN parties? Aggregating multiple consoles the way the Xb1 is supposedly able to in a limited way? Hell, the hardware initiative could fail completely and they could still spin it as a successful "Linux gaming distro".
No one seems to have mentioned the performance benefits that SteamOS could bring. John Carmack has already suggested on a tweet that some Nvidia GL extensions would far exceed DirectX on draw calls, as would Mantle.
How many Windows users would be content NOT switching to a SteamOS for gaming IF they could potentially lose ~20% gaming performance with the same hardware?, that's a good question!
Meh, who knows what this will bring, steam seems to be playing the consumer interest card, either way something like an Asus Matx that has the combo card msata will bring Steam OS partitions that could be accessed in a windows environment, I believe most people will simply dual boot Linux the way they always have. This comes down to optimizational levels with linux from hardware vendors, If steam can support higher numbers leveraging the greater hardware they win by cutting down on the windows bloat and crappy stack priorities that have plagued gaming. If anything in the future PC setups will use msata, or extra SSD configs for a dual booting the way they always have, this will allow the competitive hardware industry to still move forward. TBH I think Microsoft and software/driver creators are responsible for holding back the industry a great deal, getting them to make the move to 64bit with vista was a disaster, which will be holding back the next move to 128bit if there would be some advantage within the platform that would make use of it.
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Conduit - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
It's important since future games will be native to the GCN architecture.EnzoFX - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
I still don't understand how people can't distinguish between simply being able to connect a Windows PC to a TV, and NOT wanting to. There are many reasons why people don't want to. By this logic, why do people buy tablets? When they can easily just take a cheap laptop? Sure this is an argument some confused people make, but we should know better by now...jasonelmore - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
They will be native x86, not native GCN. and only a small portion of console ports will even use mantle.inighthawki - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Any console game written to take advantage of mantle should have no issues suing mantle on the PC as well. The porting will be trivial.AngelOfTheAbyss - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Gaming on demand (video streaming) seem to be the next logical step.Let's help them with naming a future service!
How about "Steaming Cloud"?
HisDivineOrder - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Steam Vapors.jdon - Monday, October 14, 2013 - link
How about the Steaming Heterogeneous Entertainment Attainment Portal? I think it could work... though people may start abbreviating that last part, eh?anubis44 - Sunday, October 20, 2013 - link
No it won't. Too much latency.Hrel - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
I really hope this ends up spurring universal support for linux in the gaming world. Microsoft just keeps making terrible decisions and are killing their OS. Which is impressive considering they have a monopoly. (I'm referring to the unusable Windows 8.1).Gaming is really the only thing stopping Linux from finally killing off Windows as a home PC platform once and for all. I'm cautiously optimistic that in the near future (pre-2020) we won't be exclusively reliant on Microsoft for a home based OS. Chrome OS is neat I guess, but it's not really useful for much. If I can't unplug my router and still be able to work then the machine is useless. It's just absurd to think cloud based computing is viable. You can't have any expectation of privacy, realistically, and if everyone ever does go to cloud then they'll have you, and they'll raise prices consistently and there won't be anything anyone can do about it.
BlueScreenJunky - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
"Microsoft just keeps making terrible decisions and are killing their OS. Which is impressive considering they have a monopoly. (I'm referring to the unusable Windows 8.1)."You're wrong. Windows 8.1 is their best OS to date.
HisDivineOrder - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Windows 8.1 is their best OS under the hood with some of the most baffling UI designs in a modern OS used predominately by mouse and keyboard users.elitewolverine - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
If you are unable to use a mouse to click on larger tiles vs icons, I just don't know what to say. Also....it has a full, functional desktop, that is in no way, zero zilch, hampered. (desktops)The start button is overrated and should have been done away with since 98', it's unfortunate that it has lasted this long.
Origin64 - Sunday, October 13, 2013 - link
You've got it the wrong way round. A computer mouse allows single pixel precision, therefore if a button is large it's just as functional as a small button, but taking up way more space where information could be displayed. You have to move the mouse around more, get less info on one screen, so you're always always scrolling, it's not a good UI for desktop. Good for tablets so fatasses can press big buttons with their porkchop fingers.B3an - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
I agree. 8.1 is the best OS i've used and i've used them all since Windows 3.11.piiman - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
I hear by counter your claim and say its the worse I've used and I've used them all since Dos 3.0.I win! :-)
inighthawki - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
"I'm referring to the unusable Windows 8.1"Explain, please.
teiglin - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Please don't feed the trolls. :|BMNify - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Windows 8.1 rocks, if you are not able to use it then its your pea-sized brain's fault, if you don't like metro ui then just install startisback or start8.You Linux fanatics are funny, want to kill windows and further establish the monopoly that is Steam but your dreams will be shattered when this experiment remains at less than 5% of worldwide PC-gaming market even after all the big hype.
inighthawki - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
There's also ClassicShell which is a free alternative to start8, and imo actually works better. Those who want aero glass can also lookup BigMuscle's aero glass utility. Adds it back into windows 8 natively, and soon to be 8.1 support as well.hughlle - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Its not a question of not able, its a question of not willing. Way to put a spin on it.If these solutions exist from 3rd party, and people will only upgrade because of these solutions, anyone would have thought that ms would just implement their own alternative to metro, the one people want. They turned 180 on the Xbox one, why so hesitant with windows? People can use metro, they just plain don't want to. Its nothing to do with capability to use it. Even my dad, a plain Jane average Joe computer user, hated metro so googled a workaround. Look at 8's sales records. I myself used vista up until a month ago, happily, but I and others will most likely agree that despite being usable, it had serious issues.
anubis44 - Sunday, October 20, 2013 - link
So we're going from a start menu with a alphabetized listing of installed programmes, and graphical icon shortcuts whereever you want them on the desktop, to... a bunch of radomly placed icons that don't fit on one desktop... and THAT'S an improvement?Bob Todd - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
There are a very large number of things keeping Linux from killing off Windows on the desktop, and I say this as a former Linux zealot. The "year of Linux" on the desktop is never coming, unless one or multiple large (well funded) companies takes the kernel, the GNU tools, and puts a hell of a lot of polish on it (similar to what Apple did with the Mach kernel and some BSD bits). Grandma isn't going to be able to get her new printer from Best Buy set up with CUPS. It's still an OS for people who like to tinker, and that rules out almost the entirety of the home desktop market.quagga - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Yeah, if only there was a large company invested in Linux. Perhaps in Mountain View, California which could take Linux and have a version of it pre-loaded on laptops which boot quickly and hypothetically launch a fast web browser. The next thing you'd know they'd have it on SmartPhones and tablets.Bob Todd - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
Your attempt at sarcasm isn't what I was referring to. The always online, cheap (minus the Pixel), your world is a web browser Chrome OS isn't my ideal situation. And it's not really what the person I responded to was talking about. I mean this fool's dream of 'Linux on the desktop' where distros like Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse "kill off Windows". There isn't remotely enough cohesion or polish in those experiences for that to happen. Chrome OS has a future, but it isn't pushing high-end gaming or becoming the OS the majority of the people use at home or work. The pricing of those devices make them ideal for developing markets, but those are the same markets that have the hardest time dealing with an OS designed around the fact that you've almost always got a good internet connection. And we're less than a week away from a world where Chromebooks will have to compete with sub $300 quad core Bay Trail Windows 8.1 tablets with full copies of Office (Home & Student). At that point price is almost gone from the equation and Chrome OS has to grow on its even simpler UX and security.What I meant was something much more akin to OS X than Chrome OS. Perhaps some tie-up from someone like Intel and another company that takes the kernel, GNU tools, Wayland, picks one damn UI framework for all of the core apps (e.g. QT), and actually builds a compelling user experience. The trick is, who will sink all of that money in and how do they monetize their effort? Google's is easy, close ties to all of the Google services and corresponding ads. But will we see anyone build a great "full" (non-mobile only) OS based on Linux that ends up ruling the desktop?
gochichi - Thursday, November 7, 2013 - link
I completely disagree with you on this. What rock have you been living in that Windows doesn't ever have driver issues? I have found that, on the contrary, Linux (let's call it Ubuntu really) is incredibly plug and play friendly. I can name example after example of real world things I've seen with my own eyes ... where, for example, my HP 1320 laserjet sometimes was difficult to install on Windows (although not recently, it's very "plug and play" lately) and just worked on Linux. Likewise for a scanner that I just gave up trying to use under Windows.I will say this about Linux, the very latest and very greatest usually don't work super fantastic. However, grandma isn't buying a super modern machine.
I've put grandma on Linux and BECAUSE there was no built-in expertise/intuition on Windows anyway, she had a slightly easier time.
Another example: You can open all documents you want to open with Ubuntu. Unlike Windows where you can't open anything by default and have to get external sources to handle that software. Be it MS Office or not, my point is that it's very much not built in which is incredibly confusing to Grandma.
The card games, majong and all that stuff that older people absolutely love are also part of the appeal with Linux. Harder for them to get viruses and end up with weird toolbars and stuff.
Anyhow, I don't buy this premise as to why Windows "has a monopoly", I think Windows is just better and proprietary and Windows + Office = pretty functional for most people. I would argue that the monopoly time is already over though, you can absolutely find and acquire Linux for free right now. You can absolutely find and acquire a Mac right now.
jwcalla - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
The rationale is probably exactly what Gabe has said on numerous occasions: they want to get an open entertainment platform into the living room before Apple establishes their closed platform there.MySchizoBuddy - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Oh yes an open platform playing a proprietary game is so much better than a proprietary platform playing a proprietary game.HisDivineOrder - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Actually... it is? Hm. I mean, it really is better.BMNify - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Gabe wants to further establish his Steam monopoly on the PC-gaming market, nothing else!! I like steam as just one client to get games, just like origin and other options available on Windows instead of supporting a proprietary DRM-induced closed platform like steam.kyuu - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
I have to agree with Mr. Walton's assessment; these are just PCs in custom cases. I really don't see how they're supposed to be some kind of paradigm shift in gaming. They offer nothing that I can't already do on my gaming rig -- in fact, they offer less since there's a large catalog of games I wouldn't be able to play on it. Unless I was streaming... but I could do that with a laptop doing double-duty as an HTPC.Even if you really hate Microsoft and/or Windows 8, you can already make a PC and install a Linux distro on it. What's the big deal with these things?
inighthawki - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
The difference is that they're "optimized for gaming" and Valve is pushing support for them. Otherwise, they are just Linux PCs.EnzoFX - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Some people can't see past hardware. Maybe these are the ones that praise Samsung, because all they can see is specs =P, and can't see it's on a crappy body with a crappy touchwiz? =PAnyways, the big deal about SteamOS is that it's a platform, it isn't really about the hardware. It's promised to be a flexible one, and open one, and should have features to compete with consoles, and pc's. Anand himself has said MS could have turned Xbox into a platform, not made a console... etc. The space needs to evolve. We should all welcome such changes.
djc208 - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Isn't the PS4 going to be running a Linux based OS? If so then AMD will probably have already helped develop better Linux drivers, and more then likely some version of the Mantel API for it as well. Which may give them the same benefit it does on the Windows side, where developers using Mantel to develop for the XBO can push the same benefits to a PC game. Developers writing for PS4 would have an easier time moving it to a Steambox with a similar OS that could potentially use the same rendering path for AMD hardware.phoenix_rizzen - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Most information shows it running a custom OS based on FreeBSD.Da W - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
I see not point, i repeat, NO POINT, in building such a rig with such powerful hardware and NOT installing Windows on it. You'll save what, 100$ With 600$+ worth of GPU alone?And i see a point not to encourage too much Steam and promoting some competition into game e-retaillers. Right now steam is basically alone. So the argument to kill the windows monopoly to promote the steam monopoly doesn't hold.
Microsoft should have tried a similar route. An XBOX certification program that would make a PC strong enough to play XBONE games with a Xbox mode incorporated into windows. (AMD should make 8 core jaguar available to the PC). Or simply an Xbox app in windows 8. You could still use you steam app too with big screen mode. Best of both world.
JeffFlanagan - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Promoting competition in game retailers would only be necessary if Steam started over-charging. As it is, I resent if I have to install crap like Origin (all hail the Ori) on my PC, when Steam works so well.inighthawki - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
"Promoting competition in game retailers would only be necessary if Steam started over-charging"How about those people who feel they are overcharging now? Competition is ALWAYS good, and with good alternatives, you will see lower prices and better features and support. Valve is doing nothing more than trying to take a foothold of the market by exploiting steam's popularity. The real fix is to come up with a viable alternative to the way steam works now. My proposal is to have digital distribution models based on protocols that can be implemented and shipped with a third party client, very similar to how third party IM clients work today. This way, Valve, EA, Ubisoft etc can all have their own stores, own method of managing digital distribution under a single standardized model with no intrusion on the end user other than entering account information for each separate account. After that, you will see more games and better prices as publishers open their doors to better rates for people like indie developers. Don't like that Valve takes a 30% cut of your profit? Go to competitor A or B who only takes 20%. Each publisher can get an equal share at distributing games while saving money on their end and offering end users better value.
BMNify - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
once a Steam monopoly is established you will start giving a crap, i use Steam and origin too specially after that last Origin Humble-Bundle deal, even use GOG sometimes, more competition in Digital distribution sector is good.BwwwJ1st - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
crap like Origin (all hail the Ori) +1risa2000 - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
They started overcharging when they put in place regions and 1$ = 1€ rate several years ago. In Europe games on steam are usually up to 30% more expensive than in retail (e-shop), sometimes even two times more expensive.nafhan - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
...right now. If a free OS would run the games you wanted to play, why would you spend $100+ on Windows?Plus, Steam OS makes better general Linux game and GPU driver support likely. That does help break the Windows desktop OS monopoly.
inighthawki - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Please don't misuse the word monopoly. Neither Microsoft nor Windows are a monopoly. Windows simply has a large marketshare."...right now. If a free OS would run the games you wanted to play, why would you spend $100+ on Windows?"
Ever think that some people actually like Windows? I for one happen to like the Windows environment. I do heavy amounts of C/C++ programming and I've never once enjoyed my experience programming in Linux (it's a nightmare and I cannot stand the APIs) and I've never once enjoyed using Linux anytime I've ever had to. To be quite frank, you couldn't pay *me* to use Linux.
BMNify - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
why would you spend $100+ on Windows?So that i can use a proper OS with all the paid-for programs and games, not to forget MS Office which is the Gold standard in the industry and proper support for all the 3rd party peripherals.
Besides, Windows 8 upgrade cost was just $40, students get it for free and even the price of $100 for a OS which will be useful for many years is not significant.
Also, I can use the steam client on windows which has all the AAA games, Origin, Amazon Digital and GOG digital publishing services with no vendor-lock unlike the proprietary steamOS.
EnzoFX - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Then it's not for you lol. Doesn't mean people couldn't make do without Windows.Why are people so threatened by what is supposed to be an expansion of a platform. You that insist on Windows will always have your Windows, MS isn't going anywhere. Keep building your Win PC's, SteamOS isn't yet for you, move along.
errorr - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
I always wondered what it would take engineering wise to have an enthusiast grade igpu from amd. Perhaps we would have to wait until we have truly heterogeneous compute in a single package, but a super beefed up version of what is in the ps4 would always seem interesting.Of course rhe rub is delivering that much power to a socket and then dissipating all that heat. I wonder if the engineering for the 5ghz chips that pump 200+ watts into a chip is some kind of prep for seeing what is available. I know that needs water cooling but you could get some fairly small form factors if it is all in a single die.
HisDivineOrder - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
It's quite simple what Valve is doing.They're setting themselves (and others) to have an OS that won't abandon the user-installed application model that Windows 8 seems to suggest is on the way out. Microsoft seems less vested in continuing the current application model Windows (and even OSX) is known for and instead focused on mimicking the app store in the long run.
Valve knows this will shut them out of the digital marketplace at MS's leisure, which is encouraging them to get Linux up to par immediately. They tried just integrating Steam into Linux, but that's just not enough to compel publishers to see Linux as a viable alternative.
But the time is right. If AMD is to be believed and middleware (engines) are the future of interoperability, then getting the Steam Machine in the heads of developers of those engines right now is key because right now is the shift from console to console for the next gen. Right now is the key moment for the next 5-10 years before another such cycle happens.
If developers are already going to be coding OpenGL for PS4, OpenGL for PS3, OpenGL for Android, OpenGL for Apple anything, then they might as well code OpenGL for Linux/SteamOS. That's what they're trying to make obvious. Look at the Steam controller. It has nearly every feature of a PS4 controller (including the d-pad when used for weapon swapping, etc, if you count the four buttons around the touchscreen) excluding the gyros and PS move functionality. That is, it has all the essentials.
I see SteamOS and Steam Machines as Valve's attempt to legitimize Linux as a gaming platform ahead of MS actually killing application support in favor of apps only purchased through their app store. If you think they wouldn't do that, look at how much they LOVE Xbox and remember that's precisely what that platform is. Locked in purchases that don't even transfer from generation to generation, compelling you to buy the same games again and again.
Valve's trying to get Linux up to par BEFORE Microsoft might make such a transition. Why? Because if Microsoft is eventually going to make the argument, "Well, so what if you can't run your applications and are going to an all new platform? You'll have all the apps you ever want on the new platform!"
To which, Valve wants to reply, "Well, if you're going to switch platforms anyway, you might as well switch to SteamOS since you're losing all your old applications regardless, but at least with Steam you'll have all your old licenses for Linux-versions of many of your games."
That's what SteamOS is really doing. Backing MS into a corner where if they try to do a platform lockdown, they'll suffer a huge amount of attrition for doing it. Even if SteamOS doesn't destroy Windows (and it probably won't especially at first), it could serve as a "Google Chrome" for the OS market. Pushing a certain amount of performance and feature parity to keep things moving at a pace more conducive to active progression.
Google doesn't care if Chrome wins the browser wars. They just want it to be enough of a player to compel the other guys to keep moving and improving. Same goes for SteamOS and the Steam Machines that will legitimize it.
JarredWalton - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
If you can only play most Steam games via streaming from a Windows PC running Steam, then how does any of this remove Windows from the equation? Oops.jtd871 - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
Jarred, I belive the argument is that current Windows versions (Vista, 7, 8) are not currently walled gardens. Given how popular legacy versions of windows (XP probably the best example) were/still are, it's going to take a great deal of time to convince the majority of users to upgrade anytime soon - especially as the price for Win8.1 is now essentially full-price for an OEM license (I know that Win7Prox64 works just fine for me - both at home and the office).Gabe has publicly voiced his concern that Win will go to a curated walled garden model on numerous soap boxes, which is the stated reason for pushing a Linux-oriented strategy.
My biggest head-scratcher about the Steam Machines initiative is that the prototypes, if in a case as small as has been bandied about (12x12x3), could generate amounts of heat that would be problematic at best to cool or keep to an acceptable living room degree of quiet. Falcon charges a huge premium for the Tiki and that thing only has watercooling for the CPU. Put a Titan in a Steam Machine and you'll have to underclock or undervolt the thing to keep the thermals manageable in that SFF chassis. Oh and how do you fit an effective cooling solution in there with that small a volume of case?! Even if you somehow managed to watercool the GPU, you would still need a respectable amount of airflow for the radiator. Thoughts?
framspl33n - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
The PC platform is dying out and will be replaced by Gaming Consoles and Laptops/Tablets.It only makes sense if you see these beta machines as an advertising ploy to get peoples' attention and introduce the Nvidia fanboys to the adaptability of SteamOS. After the public is introduced to the OS and decide they want to install it on their gaming machine and hook it up to their TV (or build a second machine for their kids, or buy a pre-built Steam Box) they will decide that Linux is a more friendly alternative to gaming than Windows (due to the gaming-specific optimizations) and will leave Windows to the realm of Office PCs, Laptops and Tablets, which is where Windows is headed anyways.
Ktracho - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
A Steam Machine with two graphics cards, one of them AMD, would be the best of both worlds - use one graphics card for Linux, and the other for Windows running in a virtual machine via VGA passthrough, which many AMD cards allow. Then, you can switch between Linux and Windows games just by choosing a different HDMI input on your receiver or TV - no streaming or rebooting necessary.inighthawki - Friday, October 11, 2013 - link
I would like to see the performance of such a setup. My initial impression would be that it would likely suffer from all the virtualization, but it'd still be cool to get some numbers. I haven't used it, so I'm unaware of how well it works in practice. If Windows games take a 30% performance hit, for example, that wouldn't attract many people. In that case, people might find the slightly higher latency to be a good tradeoff to retaining high throughput performance.makerofthegames - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
I think Valve is throwing ideas at the wall to see what sticks. If Steam Machines trigger a Linux gaming era, they'll go with that, mainly big, beefy hardware. If it's most popular as a streaming service that also has some native game capability, they'll cut it down to whatever will run the few native games acceptably. Or perhaps it will fit some other niche - LAN parties? Aggregating multiple consoles the way the Xb1 is supposedly able to in a limited way? Hell, the hardware initiative could fail completely and they could still spin it as a successful "Linux gaming distro".powerarmour - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
No one seems to have mentioned the performance benefits that SteamOS could bring. John Carmack has already suggested on a tweet that some Nvidia GL extensions would far exceed DirectX on draw calls, as would Mantle.How many Windows users would be content NOT switching to a SteamOS for gaming IF they could potentially lose ~20% gaming performance with the same hardware?, that's a good question!
inighthawki - Monday, October 14, 2013 - link
So why exactly should I switch to a different proprietary OS to use a cross platform OpenGL extension?1Angelreloaded - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link
Meh, who knows what this will bring, steam seems to be playing the consumer interest card, either way something like an Asus Matx that has the combo card msata will bring Steam OS partitions that could be accessed in a windows environment, I believe most people will simply dual boot Linux the way they always have. This comes down to optimizational levels with linux from hardware vendors, If steam can support higher numbers leveraging the greater hardware they win by cutting down on the windows bloat and crappy stack priorities that have plagued gaming. If anything in the future PC setups will use msata, or extra SSD configs for a dual booting the way they always have, this will allow the competitive hardware industry to still move forward. TBH I think Microsoft and software/driver creators are responsible for holding back the industry a great deal, getting them to make the move to 64bit with vista was a disaster, which will be holding back the next move to 128bit if there would be some advantage within the platform that would make use of it.