I'm really curious to see the 2nd gen full windows tablets with Haswell and what their battery life will be. If they can pull 6+ hours of web browsing life on a Surface Pro 2 I think a lot more people will feel the want to jump in (myself included)
Anand should have an article up shortly, but the short story is that at least one laptop manufacturer is realizing something like 40% better battery life on a Haswell Ultrabook. Perhaps their last-gen Ultrabook just wasn't properly optimized, but Anand and I did some investigating today on C-states. On Haswell, he's seeing a lot of time spent in C7 in light workloads; on Ivy Bridge, of the four laptops I looked at today (three Ultrabooks, one beefy laptop), not a single one ever entered into C7.
Interesting. I'll have to see what ThrottleStop is saying on the same laptops. Can you run Intel's Battery Life Analyzer and see what it says? (Just select the "C-States" option, start logging, and let the machine idle for a while.) https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?...
Nice too, btw. I can not finally verify that my X25-M is indeed running in DIPM mode, and that my SD cardreader doesn't enter PCI L1 power state. Let me know if there's anything else.
You should watch out for misleading "battery tests" that only test how much time the machine lasts while only playing video. Video playing time != average battery life.
It's possible in video playing Haswell will be better, because of better GPU, but I wouldn't expect much improvement in overall battery life.
Now the U series with gt3 gpu sans expensive cache, is by far the most interesting of the Haswell lineup, and looks like the optimal perf/w - market proposition.
It will walk all over jaguar 4c 15w part. This is what Haswell was made for and Haswell at its finest. And it caters both to business market, and us who likes to game a little now and then and have the doe to pay for luxury performance.
My IB U on 22nm already seems quite a bit tdp constrained, so the test is interesting. Anyway with broadwell on 14 nm, with added efficiency gain for gpu part it seems they will get there perfectly.
At that time the tablet parts can become interesting. As it is, no way will this work in tablet except the usual halo product. Lay that talk to rest, and anyway who cares. The new Atom is what will handle this.
Haswell is a lot of new high-end tech, and aparently needs a bit a tweaking - its not the most polished product from Intel, but is innovative and forward looking. It just didnt get there all over, but especially the U gt3 parts is stars and looks impressive.
I believe the Jaguar 4c 15w part is looking to compete with Atom not Haswell. Pricing and performance should reflect this... if AMD ever gets a design win.
I wonder why there is no dual core i7 M-series with HD 5000-series graphics. Core i7-4600M is probably what the new top-speced rMBP 13" will have installed. I was really hoping that the next rMBP would get a serious upgrade in graphics performance.
Which would only be 10w more than the current one uses, and their new cooler can certainly handle that. The battery life at load would be lower, but at idle/casual use is what matters more to most people, and that would still improve. I hope they go for the 45w quad with GT3.
The 13" Retina MacBook Pro is rumoured to be getting slimmer which at first seems contradictory since it really needs more thermal room for a more powerful IGP. However, Intel is also conveniently releasing 28W TDP "U" class processors, which almost seem like officially supported overclocked ultrabook processors with a resulting TDP that's a bit high for ultrabooks. Clearly some OEM requested this option and Apple seems like a good bet. The 28W i7-4558U has a more powerful HD 5100 IGP than the M series despite having a lower TDP. The lower TDP could then enable the 13" Retina MacBook Pro to get even thinner as rumoured.
Yes, that makes sense. Though the lineup will be rather weird with a more expensive retina version that has weaker CPU than the cMBP. I prefer a tad ticker design with a mainstream CPU (with iris pro) instead of this semi ultrabook solution.
There's been reports that the non-Retina MacBook Pro could be retained in its Ivy Bridge configuration which would provide some separation. Apple could also keep the size reduction modest to retain extra thermal room, say from 35W to 30W instead of 28W, so that the the 28W U processors can hit their top turbo bins more consistently and for longer which combined with Haswell microarchitecture improvements means the effective CPU performance doesn't have to decrease even though the outward base clock and TDP are lower.
I dont see why the 13 rmbp can,t take a full 47w cpu they surge have the cooling, if the processor wasn't 500$ that yould be my bet, probably some custom solution is in the works.
Maybe, still the 15 is a much better deal then the 13 considering specs-price, this would make the 13 stand out much more, professionals still enjoy bigger screens
Very very interesting, it's better then I expected. Although it's pretty obvious that Intel provided optimized benchmark and game performance scores, the iGPU on the i7-4558U is pretty much on par with the GT 640M LE which was already a pretty capable dGPU on the Razer Edge. I wonder how gaming tablets are going to look now or what hardware will they pack? Will it be slimmer and pack only an Intel CPU with a powerful iGPU or will they go for a Y-series CPU with a dGPU, or maybe neither? I can't wait!
Can you guys please post a 5100 iGPU (i7-4558U) benchmark and an Y-series CPU/iGPU benchmark and battery life test also? I would be very interested in the results. Thank you!
We just need laptops for Richland reviews -- the NDA is long since past, but no one has shipped us a laptop to review. We're working on that.... The same goes for anything with Kabini; the original prototype had a great screen but a lot of other build issues. We need to see what actually gets shipped into the wild now.
As for Celeron and Pentium going to Silvermont, it wouldn't be too surprising, but then we have to wonder what CPUs will actually use the GT1 version of Haswell. Right now, that part seems destined for Pentium and Celeron chips, so maybe we'll see both Silvermont and Haswell Pentiums/Celerons. Really, the separation between Core i3 and Pentium/Celeron is almost entirely caused by clock speed limits imposed on the budget chips, as well as the features turned off (e.g. no Quick Sync on Pentium/Celeron, no Hyper-Threading, no AES-NI....) There's a huge gap between Richland/Trinity and Kabini/Brazos, so if Intel were to shift their low-end stuff to Silvermont it would be more of a comparable fight.
Hi Jarred, I saw your article about the Richland 'M' mobile SKUs, but I haven't seen any coverage of the desktop parts, e.g. the A10-6800K, which Newegg already lists as 'in-stock'. Don't these work in existing motherboards?
The only architecture for CPU's that excites me now is Bay Trail, mostly because of how huge a leap it should be over the Atom from half a decade ago. Still, at least it is exciting in as far as what mobile devices it should enable.
Haswell is like the golden child of a parent trying to copy what the rebel sibling is doing and failing to do so convincingly because he's too obsessed with also having performance.
How does it make sense that the low voltage ultrabook parts get the 5000/GT3, while the high wattage dual cores get the gimped GT2 which is just a bit better than the old 4000?
I suspect Intel will gauge interest and announce more SKUs later this year. This is really just the first salvo. Also, Intel wants to sell more ULV chips at higher margins, so they don't want to kill sales on Ultrabooks with better performance, lower cost M-series chips. Don't forget that Ultrabooks are also heavily TDP constrained, so putting in a dGPU is often difficult to manage without more exotic cooling systems. With their U-series, Intel is basically giving all Ultrabooks the option for a decent iGPU. In short, it's market segmentation as a business strategy, which is nothing new for Intel (or AMD for that matter).
For the U chips, its not just about performance, but rather best performance specific power level.
Based on the performance Anandtech is giving, I assume the HD 5000 is running a LOT lower frequency than the 1.1GHz Turbo peak indicates.
Intel themselves said of doing similar as well. Running "2x" graphics at lower frequency and voltage, compared to "1x" graphics at standard frequency and voltage allows for much better perf/watt.
Also, dual core 35W parts will go entirely away with Broadwell.
Exactly. That was already known for a long time. Due to lower clock speeds the actually performance difference will be pretty small but U Chips get better performance/watt
Single-Core (I suppose I could have said "single-threaded") and Dual-Core loads. So if you're only loading a single core you can hit a higher Turbo Boost speed than if you're loading two cores, and if you're loading three or more (on a quad-core CPU) you'd drop down yet another bin.
Are there any actual proper desktop i3's clocked above 3.3GHz and a release date for them (Haswell equivalents of Ivy i3-3220, Sandy i2-2120, Clarkdale i3-530, etc)?
Also, Jarred, have you tested a non-K multiplier-locked i5 yet to see if they can be overclocked via BCLK (as that will make the difference between a desktop i3 being stuck at 3.3GHz and being able to reach 4.125GHz)? Thanks.
I have not had any Haswell hardware personally -- yet! (Coming soon!) As for desktop Core i3, we know they'll come out eventually; I think we're under NDA on that so I can't comment other than to say that the released information has not covered any desktop Core i3.
From what I see, these awesome dual cores and integrated GPUs should be able to run titles like Warcraft III, Settlers III and Stars! at the amazingly high resolution of 1355X768 and over 60 FPS. Ofc, Pinball and Solitaire run at 1920X1080 at over 120 FPS for those dudes who invested in 120Hz monitors. Tetris should run at over 200 FPS and 2560X1440. Awesome. Another technological breakthrough from Intel.
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Ikefu - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I'm really curious to see the 2nd gen full windows tablets with Haswell and what their battery life will be. If they can pull 6+ hours of web browsing life on a Surface Pro 2 I think a lot more people will feel the want to jump in (myself included)JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Anand should have an article up shortly, but the short story is that at least one laptop manufacturer is realizing something like 40% better battery life on a Haswell Ultrabook. Perhaps their last-gen Ultrabook just wasn't properly optimized, but Anand and I did some investigating today on C-states. On Haswell, he's seeing a lot of time spent in C7 in light workloads; on Ivy Bridge, of the four laptops I looked at today (three Ultrabooks, one beefy laptop), not a single one ever entered into C7.Darkstone - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Actually throttlestop claims my latitude E6520 with i7-2820QM is spending ~90% of its time in C7, 0% in C6, and wily varying 0-5% in C3.Darkstone - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Screenshot: http://tweakers.net/ext/f/m74mHsUJCskNjLFaENOsEd1R...Those are the default settings, i believe.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Interesting. I'll have to see what ThrottleStop is saying on the same laptops. Can you run Intel's Battery Life Analyzer and see what it says? (Just select the "C-States" option, start logging, and let the machine idle for a while.)https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?...
Darkstone - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Yep: http://tweakers.net/ext/f/D6UORwXdpa44d85zUOHU745Y...I closed all background programs, switched to balanced profile, and unplugged the adapter. The screen is on 60hz.
Nice too, btw. I can not finally verify that my X25-M is indeed running in DIPM mode, and that my
SD cardreader doesn't enter PCI L1 power state. Let me know if there's anything else.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
So it looks like IVB will only enter C7 if you're unplugged, but Haswell will do it while plugged in. Interesting.Krysto - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
You should watch out for misleading "battery tests" that only test how much time the machine lasts while only playing video. Video playing time != average battery life.It's possible in video playing Haswell will be better, because of better GPU, but I wouldn't expect much improvement in overall battery life.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
The results are for Internet surfing, also confirmed with several other battery life tests.krumme - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Now the U series with gt3 gpu sans expensive cache, is by far the most interesting of the Haswell lineup, and looks like the optimal perf/w - market proposition.It will walk all over jaguar 4c 15w part. This is what Haswell was made for and Haswell at its finest. And it caters both to business market, and us who likes to game a little now and then and have the doe to pay for luxury performance.
My IB U on 22nm already seems quite a bit tdp constrained, so the test is interesting. Anyway with broadwell on 14 nm, with added efficiency gain for gpu part it seems they will get there perfectly.
At that time the tablet parts can become interesting. As it is, no way will this work in tablet except the usual halo product. Lay that talk to rest, and anyway who cares. The new Atom is what will handle this.
Haswell is a lot of new high-end tech, and aparently needs a bit a tweaking - its not the most polished product from Intel, but is innovative and forward looking. It just didnt get there all over, but especially the U gt3 parts is stars and looks impressive.
BMNify - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I believe the Jaguar 4c 15w part is looking to compete with Atom not Haswell. Pricing and performance should reflect this... if AMD ever gets a design win.bcseime - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I wonder why there is no dual core i7 M-series with HD 5000-series graphics. Core i7-4600M is probably what the new top-speced rMBP 13" will have installed. I was really hoping that the next rMBP would get a serious upgrade in graphics performance.Klug4Pres - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
That will be an Apple-exclusive SKU.jasonelmore - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
4600m is already 37watts. add iris graphics to that cpu and it's probably gonna pull 45wtipoo - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Which would only be 10w more than the current one uses, and their new cooler can certainly handle that. The battery life at load would be lower, but at idle/casual use is what matters more to most people, and that would still improve. I hope they go for the 45w quad with GT3.ltcommanderdata - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
http://www.macrumors.com/2013/06/02/slimmer-13-ret...The 13" Retina MacBook Pro is rumoured to be getting slimmer which at first seems contradictory since it really needs more thermal room for a more powerful IGP. However, Intel is also conveniently releasing 28W TDP "U" class processors, which almost seem like officially supported overclocked ultrabook processors with a resulting TDP that's a bit high for ultrabooks. Clearly some OEM requested this option and Apple seems like a good bet. The 28W i7-4558U has a more powerful HD 5100 IGP than the M series despite having a lower TDP. The lower TDP could then enable the 13" Retina MacBook Pro to get even thinner as rumoured.
bcseime - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Yes, that makes sense. Though the lineup will be rather weird with a more expensive retina version that has weaker CPU than the cMBP. I prefer a tad ticker design with a mainstream CPU (with iris pro) instead of this semi ultrabook solution.ltcommanderdata - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
There's been reports that the non-Retina MacBook Pro could be retained in its Ivy Bridge configuration which would provide some separation. Apple could also keep the size reduction modest to retain extra thermal room, say from 35W to 30W instead of 28W, so that the the 28W U processors can hit their top turbo bins more consistently and for longer which combined with Haswell microarchitecture improvements means the effective CPU performance doesn't have to decrease even though the outward base clock and TDP are lower.nunomoreira10 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I dont see why the 13 rmbp can,t take a full 47w cpu they surge have the cooling, if the processor wasn't 500$ that yould be my bet, probably some custom solution is in the works.shiznit - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
because it would hurt sales of the overpriced 15"nunomoreira10 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Maybe, still the 15 is a much better deal then the 13 considering specs-price, this would make the 13 stand out much more, professionals still enjoy bigger screenskapg - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
All the Core i5's in the U series have the same model/SKU number. Please update.JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Fixed. Sorry about that.rhx123 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Whatever happened to si0x or whatever it was?They made a big deal out of it but I haven't really heard much about it from the tech sites.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Anand is working on an Ultrabook review/testing where he'll have more to say about power savings.darthrevan13 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Very very interesting, it's better then I expected. Although it's pretty obvious that Intel provided optimized benchmark and game performance scores, the iGPU on the i7-4558U is pretty much on par with the GT 640M LE which was already a pretty capable dGPU on the Razer Edge. I wonder how gaming tablets are going to look now or what hardware will they pack? Will it be slimmer and pack only an Intel CPU with a powerful iGPU or will they go for a Y-series CPU with a dGPU, or maybe neither? I can't wait!Can you guys please post a 5100 iGPU (i7-4558U) benchmark and an Y-series CPU/iGPU benchmark and battery life test also? I would be very interested in the results. Thank you!
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I'd love to test the i7-4558U, but we don't have one (yet). As soon as we get a laptop with that CPU, though, you can bet we'll be benchmarking it!Musafir_86 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
-Hmm, it's look like next generation Pentiums and Celerons will be based on Atom derivatives (Silvermont et al.): http://techreport.com/news/24884/future-pentiums-c...-BTW, when we could expect AMD "Richland" (desktop and mobile) review(s)? The NDA/embargo until when?
-Also, will there be any chance for Kabini A6-5200 review? In the nearest time, I mean. :)
Regards.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
We just need laptops for Richland reviews -- the NDA is long since past, but no one has shipped us a laptop to review. We're working on that.... The same goes for anything with Kabini; the original prototype had a great screen but a lot of other build issues. We need to see what actually gets shipped into the wild now.As for Celeron and Pentium going to Silvermont, it wouldn't be too surprising, but then we have to wonder what CPUs will actually use the GT1 version of Haswell. Right now, that part seems destined for Pentium and Celeron chips, so maybe we'll see both Silvermont and Haswell Pentiums/Celerons. Really, the separation between Core i3 and Pentium/Celeron is almost entirely caused by clock speed limits imposed on the budget chips, as well as the features turned off (e.g. no Quick Sync on Pentium/Celeron, no Hyper-Threading, no AES-NI....) There's a huge gap between Richland/Trinity and Kabini/Brazos, so if Intel were to shift their low-end stuff to Silvermont it would be more of a comparable fight.
bobbozzo - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Hi Jarred, I saw your article about the Richland 'M' mobile SKUs, but I haven't seen any coverage of the desktop parts, e.g. the A10-6800K, which Newegg already lists as 'in-stock'.Don't these work in existing motherboards?
Thanks!
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Technically the NDA is up at midnight. Go figure.Arnulf - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
You have a female deer to pay for it ?Akaz1976 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Are there any Haswell Y based tablets announced yet? or products on those are still expected by Dec this year?JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I'd assume Acer will update their tablet to a Haswell part. I'm not sure of any others right now.HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
The only architecture for CPU's that excites me now is Bay Trail, mostly because of how huge a leap it should be over the Atom from half a decade ago. Still, at least it is exciting in as far as what mobile devices it should enable.Haswell is like the golden child of a parent trying to copy what the rebel sibling is doing and failing to do so convincingly because he's too obsessed with also having performance.
tipoo - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
It's a real shame none of the dual cores can come with GT3, that's where it would benefit most, as they would fit best in 13" laptops.tipoo - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
How does it make sense that the low voltage ultrabook parts get the 5000/GT3, while the high wattage dual cores get the gimped GT2 which is just a bit better than the old 4000?ssiu - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
ditto -- illogical and disappointingJarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I suspect Intel will gauge interest and announce more SKUs later this year. This is really just the first salvo. Also, Intel wants to sell more ULV chips at higher margins, so they don't want to kill sales on Ultrabooks with better performance, lower cost M-series chips. Don't forget that Ultrabooks are also heavily TDP constrained, so putting in a dGPU is often difficult to manage without more exotic cooling systems. With their U-series, Intel is basically giving all Ultrabooks the option for a decent iGPU. In short, it's market segmentation as a business strategy, which is nothing new for Intel (or AMD for that matter).sheh - Saturday, June 8, 2013 - link
Indeed. Better iGPU makes the most sense in hi-watt, med-end, CPUs. High end CPUs are more likely to be accompanied by a dGPU.IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
For the U chips, its not just about performance, but rather best performance specific power level.Based on the performance Anandtech is giving, I assume the HD 5000 is running a LOT lower frequency than the 1.1GHz Turbo peak indicates.
Intel themselves said of doing similar as well. Running "2x" graphics at lower frequency and voltage, compared to "1x" graphics at standard frequency and voltage allows for much better perf/watt.
Also, dual core 35W parts will go entirely away with Broadwell.
beginner99 - Wednesday, June 5, 2013 - link
Exactly. That was already known for a long time. Due to lower clock speeds the actually performance difference will be pretty small but U Chips get better performance/watttrip1ex - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
As usual Intel releases a clusterfeck of cpu models.ONly god knows the reasons for this. I think they could trim the entire line down to 5 or 6 cpus.
AFQ - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Whats SC and DC Turbo?JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Single-Core (I suppose I could have said "single-threaded") and Dual-Core loads. So if you're only loading a single core you can hit a higher Turbo Boost speed than if you're loading two cores, and if you're loading three or more (on a quad-core CPU) you'd drop down yet another bin.bsim500 - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
Silly question, but what happened to all the previously leaked Haswell i3 model numbers (Google "Haswell i3 Arctic Cooling leaked"):-"The listing by Arctic Cooling revealed the following processors:-
Core i3-4240T, Core i3-4240, Core i3-4225, Core i3-4220T, Core i3-4220"
Are there any actual proper desktop i3's clocked above 3.3GHz and a release date for them (Haswell equivalents of Ivy i3-3220, Sandy i2-2120, Clarkdale i3-530, etc)?
Also, Jarred, have you tested a non-K multiplier-locked i5 yet to see if they can be overclocked via BCLK (as that will make the difference between a desktop i3 being stuck at 3.3GHz and being able to reach 4.125GHz)? Thanks.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 4, 2013 - link
I have not had any Haswell hardware personally -- yet! (Coming soon!) As for desktop Core i3, we know they'll come out eventually; I think we're under NDA on that so I can't comment other than to say that the released information has not covered any desktop Core i3.Achaios - Wednesday, June 5, 2013 - link
From what I see, these awesome dual cores and integrated GPUs should be able to run titles like Warcraft III, Settlers III and Stars! at the amazingly high resolution of 1355X768 and over 60 FPS. Ofc, Pinball and Solitaire run at 1920X1080 at over 120 FPS for those dudes who invested in 120Hz monitors. Tetris should run at over 200 FPS and 2560X1440. Awesome. Another technological breakthrough from Intel.sheh - Saturday, June 8, 2013 - link
Are the 37W i5s released already? If not, when will laptops with them start appearing?