Sure, it looks great in a demo, but so far all ergonomics and usability research has shown that this kind of UI does not work for any extended time frame.
On the other hand, instructors use black/whiteboards etc, so there's a potential use case in education, or, in fact, when doing demonstrations or presentations, but I fail to see how Windows has much to do with that, as in the end application support is what matters more. Of course, if that means that there is a decent multi-touch API integrated into Windows 8, this may be of some interest.
True, but with a wireless keyboard and touchpad or mouse that could be kind of neat. I'd still opt for the regular TV plus connected HTPC though, that way you don't have to throw the whole thing out when something is outdated. I wonder if they'll work voice control into it, that could be good for home theatre.
You are absolutely right. Imagine (if you aren't already) sitting in front of your desktop PC. Now imagine if its monitor was a touch screen and you had Win 8 installed. Now imagine using your computer by reaching all the way to your monitor and touching it to accomplish something. I can't even reach my monitor without leaning forward. Can you imagine anything that could be *less* ergonomic? Neither can I. Touch UIs only work when you can have the touch screen near your body and at about elbow height (or in your hand if it's a handheld device). Sure it would be cool gimmick for desktops, for about two minutes, in which time your arm will start to hurt and you'll notice how much easier it is to point at things on your screen using a mouse. The Metro UI will be a huge failure on desktops. Maybe it would be ok if you could split your screen so that the other (say, right) half would be where the Metro UI with its live tiles resides, and on your left you could have the regular Windows desktop. I played around with the Developer Preview quite a bit when it came out, and found the Metro UI to be hugely restrictive and hard to operate. You just can't do what you want with it. Want to launch a program? Good luck trying to find the program search thingy and then typing in the name of the program you need. Instead of just going to the start menu and finding all your programs listed alphabetically there. Windows is a platform on top of which applications run. Being able to quickly and effortlessly find and launch the applications you want is the main functionality. Not a fancy (touch) UI that shows the latest Facebook posts of your "friends" and the weather outside. Well anyways, downloading the Consumer Preview now. I hope they have done something to make the thing less crippled.
I mostly agree with you but you forget one interesting way of applying this technology and that is Microsoft Surface. From what this article is saying it sounds like they have rolled in a lot of the same code into Windows 8. I don't think there are any Gorilla arm problems with using a tabletop display and touch surface.
I haven't tried Windows 8 yet but the Consumer Preview is already downloading and I will see soon enough what I think of the design.
When I said "Touch UIs only work when you can have the touch screen near your body and at about elbow height" I meant things like the Surface. You need to have the touch screen at ~elbow height, close to you and tilted upwards for it to be ergonomic to use. Then it will work.
Even then, imagine using this for an extended period of time?
Sure, playing with it for 20 minutes is neet-o. Think of using this for hours... Sorry, slight mouse movements and finger twitches when typing are far far far more usable than a touchscreen. I get annoyed using my smartphone's touchscreen for more than 30 minutes.
You, sir lack any sort of imagination. Imagine a desktop that is design with a touchscreen surface in mind (and By desktop I include the desk) If a High resolution (high DPI, mobile phone like pixel density) Multi-touch Monitor is anchored to your desk at about a 45 degree angle directly in front of you with a physical keyboard (that won't change until they have piezoelectric keyboards that will let you feel buttons on screen) at the bottom of of the display. (no mouse). Precise (mouse-like) input for CAD and Photoshop is handled by moving stylus directly on the screen.
That is actually a more natural way of interacting with your computer. That's right, more natural then a mouse. You can drag windows by dragging them. select things by touching them. The current
Sounds like a touch screen laptop with a fixed screen angle, like the acer iconia w500. Using one for six months, I agree that it is often more natural to touch the screen than to use a keyboard/mouse or pointing stick.
The biggest flaw with these types of device is that there is not a touch screen element for precise input. Why can't Microsoft add a small box to Windows which you contol by rolling your finger? When you place your finger in the box, roll it twice to configure then the box works just like a pointing stick.
WoW, almost took the imagination right out of my mind. It is true that most of these antagonists for Win8 lack imagination. They've been spoon fed ideals most of their lives. It seems some of them got some education in the field of technology engineering and because of the habit they got as a kid, they just reverse engineer things that's already old and call it new. I've been reading about Win8 and I don't understand what people have against innovation.
I read mcnabney's comments and before i read your reply, I EASILY thought of a large touch screen display, mounted to a smooth clear glass/plastic arm with near 0 resistance except when you lock it or adjust it. Why isn't this imagination easy for everyone else? Look up the quote from Einstein. Imagination is WAY MORE important than intellegence.
gladly, it does not take away any options you already had for years. so what's your point? that you can actually switch to mouse and keyboard, but use touch where it's more useful to do so? that you can mix and match depending on the length of the period you're doing something, etc?
there's NO loss in having touch, too. there are only gains.
What if your screen was the table top you're sitting at? It's like reading from a piece of paper on your desk. I think a touch screen that big shouldn't be standiing up in front of you, it should lay on the table. Of course it woud have to be made differntly to withstand a certain amount of pressure and the connectors would have to move to the top or side.
As I said, a touch screen should be located at about elbow height, close to your body and at an angle so that it faces almost upwards. A table/surface falls in to my requirements.
If you use the touch interface just 10 or 20% in your desktop, office computer, I say that's a plus. If you don't think it is, don't buy a multitouch screen, for heaven's sake.
If you can demonstrate that the thing is not usable at all with a mouse+keyboard alone, then you'd have a point.
However, I can see myself using it 20% of the time in my office computer. When browsing, editing pictures, or making selections, scrolling large pdfs and zooming. I have two screens in my office (one is in portrait mode, one 16:10), I was planning to add a third. This third one now will be a multi touch screen, just for the kicks.
Can't see how it will prevent me doing things I'm already doing.
Yeah, I see this as a demonstration of what the new touch centric features add to windows. I don't see this as the ideal way to interact with windows when sitting in front of a keyboard. It is an effective way of interacting with a tablet, with a surface type device, a touchscreen PC, possible an HTPC controller, etc..
For working with excel, word, editing video, audio, pictures this UI makes little to know sense except for the most simplistic of tasks.
What's with the fugly cyan / red color scheme ? *IF* I end up stuck with Win8 I'll be turning their metrosexual interface thingy off anyway but the choice of colors has me worried that same scheme will be used throughout the system :(
What workstations with Win8 need is a tablet UI remote (wifi-bluetooth-usb) like a galaxy tab / kindle fire running an "Win8" Extender App that can replace the keyboard / mouse + gestures, along with mirroring the user's desktop screen (zoom in % to fully zoomed out) with the graphic overlay for virtual UI on the tablet screen. Optional hardware mouse buttons might be useful on a smaller 5" tablet device, possibly even a "scroll wheel" since desktop apps maintain focus within the window instead of filling the entire real estate (unless that's the "new" feel of Win 8 to make an app a full screen sandbox - which might be annoying to power users). To cut costs, the tablet can be a dumbed down device like the Wii tablet remote, or could be an app running on full consumer type tablet running Android, BBoS or iOS with a custom app provided (dare I say) Microsoft. Gone are the days of gorilla arms, carpal tunnel and possibility of cutting the cables and iffy BT connections. The tablet UI is endlessly configurable, except for holographic input... for now.
How can Microsoft imagine that touch ui is fun on large screen desktops ? Its not even useful for laptops larger than 10 inches.
Rolling finger slightly on touch pad or pointing by mouse is a lot easier and sensible than moving hand on touch screen. Moreover I don't want to make finger prints on my laptop or desktop screen.
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Rick83 - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
Sure, it looks great in a demo, but so far all ergonomics and usability research has shown that this kind of UI does not work for any extended time frame.On the other hand, instructors use black/whiteboards etc, so there's a potential use case in education, or, in fact, when doing demonstrations or presentations, but I fail to see how Windows has much to do with that, as in the end application support is what matters more.
Of course, if that means that there is a decent multi-touch API integrated into Windows 8, this may be of some interest.
Still, a bit too flashy for my taste.
ananduser - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
Nothing beats Apple flashy-ness. MS can try all they want.tipoo - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
True, but with a wireless keyboard and touchpad or mouse that could be kind of neat. I'd still opt for the regular TV plus connected HTPC though, that way you don't have to throw the whole thing out when something is outdated. I wonder if they'll work voice control into it, that could be good for home theatre.mcnabney - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
Welcome is 2007, except I use a 100" screen.Kepe - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
You are absolutely right. Imagine (if you aren't already) sitting in front of your desktop PC. Now imagine if its monitor was a touch screen and you had Win 8 installed. Now imagine using your computer by reaching all the way to your monitor and touching it to accomplish something. I can't even reach my monitor without leaning forward. Can you imagine anything that could be *less* ergonomic? Neither can I.Touch UIs only work when you can have the touch screen near your body and at about elbow height (or in your hand if it's a handheld device). Sure it would be cool gimmick for desktops, for about two minutes, in which time your arm will start to hurt and you'll notice how much easier it is to point at things on your screen using a mouse.
The Metro UI will be a huge failure on desktops. Maybe it would be ok if you could split your screen so that the other (say, right) half would be where the Metro UI with its live tiles resides, and on your left you could have the regular Windows desktop. I played around with the Developer Preview quite a bit when it came out, and found the Metro UI to be hugely restrictive and hard to operate. You just can't do what you want with it. Want to launch a program? Good luck trying to find the program search thingy and then typing in the name of the program you need. Instead of just going to the start menu and finding all your programs listed alphabetically there.
Windows is a platform on top of which applications run. Being able to quickly and effortlessly find and launch the applications you want is the main functionality. Not a fancy (touch) UI that shows the latest Facebook posts of your "friends" and the weather outside.
Well anyways, downloading the Consumer Preview now. I hope they have done something to make the thing less crippled.
thrawn3 - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
I mostly agree with you but you forget one interesting way of applying this technology and that is Microsoft Surface. From what this article is saying it sounds like they have rolled in a lot of the same code into Windows 8.I don't think there are any Gorilla arm problems with using a tabletop display and touch surface.
I haven't tried Windows 8 yet but the Consumer Preview is already downloading and I will see soon enough what I think of the design.
Kepe - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
When I said "Touch UIs only work when you can have the touch screen near your body and at about elbow height" I meant things like the Surface. You need to have the touch screen at ~elbow height, close to you and tilted upwards for it to be ergonomic to use. Then it will work.mcnabney - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
Even then, imagine using this for an extended period of time?Sure, playing with it for 20 minutes is neet-o. Think of using this for hours... Sorry, slight mouse movements and finger twitches when typing are far far far more usable than a touchscreen. I get annoyed using my smartphone's touchscreen for more than 30 minutes.
Chudilo - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
You, sir lack any sort of imagination. Imagine a desktop that is design with a touchscreen surface in mind (and By desktop I include the desk) If a High resolution (high DPI, mobile phone like pixel density) Multi-touch Monitor is anchored to your desk at about a 45 degree angle directly in front of you with a physical keyboard (that won't change until they have piezoelectric keyboards that will let you feel buttons on screen) at the bottom of of the display. (no mouse).Precise (mouse-like) input for CAD and Photoshop is handled by moving stylus directly on the screen.
That is actually a more natural way of interacting with your computer. That's right, more natural then a mouse. You can drag windows by dragging them. select things by touching them. The current
This Guy - Thursday, March 1, 2012 - link
Sounds like a touch screen laptop with a fixed screen angle, like the acer iconia w500. Using one for six months, I agree that it is often more natural to touch the screen than to use a keyboard/mouse or pointing stick.The biggest flaw with these types of device is that there is not a touch screen element for precise input. Why can't Microsoft add a small box to Windows which you contol by rolling your finger? When you place your finger in the box, roll it twice to configure then the box works just like a pointing stick.
I'm calling it a roll box :)
niquev71 - Thursday, July 19, 2012 - link
WoW, almost took the imagination right out of my mind. It is true that most of these antagonists for Win8 lack imagination. They've been spoon fed ideals most of their lives. It seems some of them got some education in the field of technology engineering and because of the habit they got as a kid, they just reverse engineer things that's already old and call it new. I've been reading about Win8 and I don't understand what people have against innovation.I read mcnabney's comments and before i read your reply, I EASILY thought of a large touch screen display, mounted to a smooth clear glass/plastic arm with near 0 resistance except when you lock it or adjust it. Why isn't this imagination easy for everyone else? Look up the quote from Einstein. Imagination is WAY MORE important than intellegence.
davepermen - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
gladly, it does not take away any options you already had for years. so what's your point? that you can actually switch to mouse and keyboard, but use touch where it's more useful to do so? that you can mix and match depending on the length of the period you're doing something, etc?there's NO loss in having touch, too. there are only gains.
imaheadcase - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
Now imagine me just switching back to standard mouse/keyboard and enjoying it more.Kepe - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
That's exactly what I said in my original comment. Don't people read before replying?cfaalm - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
What if your screen was the table top you're sitting at? It's like reading from a piece of paper on your desk. I think a touch screen that big shouldn't be standiing up in front of you, it should lay on the table. Of course it woud have to be made differntly to withstand a certain amount of pressure and the connectors would have to move to the top or side.Kepe - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
As I said, a touch screen should be located at about elbow height, close to your body and at an angle so that it faces almost upwards. A table/surface falls in to my requirements.RHurst - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
Oh, what a big drama, you don't need gorilla arm.If you use the touch interface just 10 or 20% in your desktop, office computer, I say that's a plus. If you don't think it is, don't buy a multitouch screen, for heaven's sake.
If you can demonstrate that the thing is not usable at all with a mouse+keyboard alone, then you'd have a point.
However, I can see myself using it 20% of the time in my office computer. When browsing, editing pictures, or making selections, scrolling large pdfs and zooming. I have two screens in my office (one is in portrait mode, one 16:10), I was planning to add a third. This third one now will be a multi touch screen, just for the kicks.
Can't see how it will prevent me doing things I'm already doing.
apinkel - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
Yeah, I see this as a demonstration of what the new touch centric features add to windows. I don't see this as the ideal way to interact with windows when sitting in front of a keyboard. It is an effective way of interacting with a tablet, with a surface type device, a touchscreen PC, possible an HTPC controller, etc..For working with excel, word, editing video, audio, pictures this UI makes little to know sense except for the most simplistic of tasks.
SirZ - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
82 inch mother-of-all-ipad!Imagine multi-gaming on one of those (after all the article says it supports 10 people with 10 fingers each)
mpschan - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
As a person with toes, I'm insulted that they are restricting this functionality to fingers.How DARE they!
Arnulf - Wednesday, February 29, 2012 - link
What's with the fugly cyan / red color scheme ? *IF* I end up stuck with Win8 I'll be turning their metrosexual interface thingy off anyway but the choice of colors has me worried that same scheme will be used throughout the system :(spinportal - Thursday, March 1, 2012 - link
What workstations with Win8 need is a tablet UI remote (wifi-bluetooth-usb) like a galaxy tab / kindle fire running an "Win8" Extender App that can replace the keyboard / mouse + gestures, along with mirroring the user's desktop screen (zoom in % to fully zoomed out) with the graphic overlay for virtual UI on the tablet screen. Optional hardware mouse buttons might be useful on a smaller 5" tablet device, possibly even a "scroll wheel" since desktop apps maintain focus within the window instead of filling the entire real estate (unless that's the "new" feel of Win 8 to make an app a full screen sandbox - which might be annoying to power users). To cut costs, the tablet can be a dumbed down device like the Wii tablet remote, or could be an app running on full consumer type tablet running Android, BBoS or iOS with a custom app provided (dare I say) Microsoft. Gone are the days of gorilla arms, carpal tunnel and possibility of cutting the cables and iffy BT connections. The tablet UI is endlessly configurable, except for holographic input... for now.dhaval070 - Saturday, March 2, 2013 - link
How can Microsoft imagine that touch ui is fun on large screen desktops ? Its not even useful for laptops larger than 10 inches.Rolling finger slightly on touch pad or pointing by mouse is a lot easier and sensible than moving hand on touch screen. Moreover I don't want to make finger prints on my laptop or desktop screen.