Awesome, I don't buy phones 'til I see the AT review. It's amazing to me that no other mobile sites are trying to catch up with the quality of AT reviews.
So true. What others call a review rarely goes beyond a verbose version of the spec sheet (particularly when it involves andriod devices). I also appreciate that Brian takes battery life and display quality seriously... the two most important aspects of any smartphone, provided your purchase isn't just about getting a shiny new status symbol.
I'm real glad of this Lumia 710 review, if my original Samsung Galaxy dies this will probably be the phone I get. Ideally I want to wait for the 2nd generation Nokia phones. The 710 seems better rounded and with less compromises than the 800 to me though. The only real benefit to the 800 is the external design from what I can tell, better screen?
Thank you. I came here just to remind you about the Galaxy Nexus review. I went ahead and bought one last week anyway. I love it. Insane display. The only things that upset me are: 1) The low, low, low volume (both speakers, and voice) 2) The phone lags with most live wallpapers (except for Photo Beam)...
The Nokia Luma710 isn't the "midrange" product for Nokia. The 800 is the "midrange" product and they haven't announced their high end product for the US yet. I do agree that Nokia doesn't make too much sense right now but at the same time I don't exactly own a successful phone manufacturing company.
That's true, I guess I should state that at present those labels are relative - only the 710 and 800 are announced. (Though we'll see what happens at CES...)
Yup, you did some good editing for better accuracy. Only people who are up on their Windows Phones news knows that Nokia actually gave a statement saying they didn't release the Lumia 800 in the US because they wanted to make sure they released a proper high end phone to compete in the market over here. Also, they wanted to establish a base and buzz in the rest of the world with the Lumia 800 where they still have phones in the hands of their consumers.
You get judged by what you SHIP not by what you plan one day to ship.
You know what's a truly awesome phone, way better than ALL this crap Anand is talking about --- the iPhone 7! Man, that thing makes a Lumia 710 look like a Nokia 6235 candybar.
In the US it's all about the high end,the consumer is quite a different beast from most other places and to be fair the price difference is pretty small. Why T-Mo and the 710? Nokia most likely has better relations with T-Mo than with the other US carriers so it was easier to bring the device to market fast and they didn't wanted to give a higeher end device to the smallest of the big 4 or maybe nobody was interesting in heavily subsidizing the 800.As for the device itself i'm not sure it's a better buy than the HTC Radar 4G. For the ecosystem,it's hard to have faith in Microsoft,they are slow and afraid to innovate,the Windows brand doesn't have the best image and the first steps towards an OS unification are not great.Win 8 might be Vista 2 for traditional PC users.If they don't let us disable the Metro UI on desktops, i know i won't upgrade to Win8,don't need the extra bloat. They'll keep trying to buy their way in,just like they are doing with Bing ( terrible search engine BTW and i use it often) but they need to do better to actually succeed.
u really just sound like u have a grudge towards microsoft now... i've used the dev preview, i admit its not that great for keyboard/mouse use but definitely works wonders once you get touch screen, but thats only the dev preview and ms said they would do something about it (otoh, the new task manager is great)
now about innovation, xbox was definitely innovative, wp7/zune dont get enough credit they are some of the the most innovative product as well, sky drive is fantastic now with the new update and fix they have in place (still hate the 100mb file limit though...)
Microsoft isn't the monstrosity it used to be, they actually listen to customers now and do things right, give them another chance
I live in a European country where the carriers are not subsidizing cell phones. Monthly data+voice cost over a period of time is lower compared to a smartphone price so it makes sense to choose between a cheap and expensive phone. There is no 2 year commitment so you should decide if you want to buy a cheap phone and replace it sooner or an expensive one for longer term.
In the US the price over a 2 year contract (with a data plan) is substantial compared to the subsidized smartphone price. Usually high end phones sell for $200 and the cheapest ones are $50 or less. I don't think $150-$200 is much enough compared to the overall cost over 2 years (less than $10/mo) so I would only buy the high end smartphones. Carriers should introduce discounted monthly data+voice plans for cheaper smartphones.
The same long term myopia that results in Joe Luser prefering to end up paying more for his phone in higher monthly rates if he doesn't upgrade it every 24 mo on the spot makes paying anything upfront for the phone unattractive. The cash cow of people not upgrading immediately is also why excepting T-Mobile none of the major US carriers offer discounts once your longterm contract is expired and you're no longer paying down a device subsidy.
" Microsoft has a great hardware partner in Nokia (arguably one of the best in the business)"
Nokia does not built these windows phones. Their insane CEO have outsourced it to South Korean companies (probably HTC). At the same time Nokia's own factories are empty. Nokia's strength were that they could build phones cheaper then anybody else. Now they are locked to a predetermined platform by MSFT and outsource the manufacturing. Since they don't even do the OS, what exactly does Nokia do on their phones today?
BTW. From my knowledge Windows mobile 7.5 is not multi threaded. That is the reason why we only have single core processors. The whole windows platform is played by non/poor multithreading since Windows inception. Google/Apple use *nix. Something that have been multithreaded since late 1960s.
The fact is that MSFT never have been successful in any business there they have had competition. Still today 94% of MSFT profit comes from Windows/Office. Its only in monopoly business that people accept poor products and insane prices. Somehow Office costs 300 dollars on Windows, while MSFT Office for mac can be bought for 30 dollar. The difference is that MSFT have competition on mac. Even at 30 dollars people don't buy it.
Only way for MSFT to make Windows Mobile successful is that they do like they did with Xbox. MSFT have to eat huge losses for almost 10 years. MSFT have already started this strategy by giving free Xbox360 consoles to people who buys Lumia phones and spending hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising.
I have worked for Nokia. They have a special place in my heart. They will not survive with this insane CEO they have. He needs to be fired as soon as possible and Nokia needs to make good Android phones. MSFT mobile won't be successful.
It sounds like you have personal grievances with Elop, and you're allowing that to cloud your objectivity. Most of your post is ill informed blathering...
1) Yes, the Lumia 800 is manufactured by Compal, based in Taipei City (not HTC). However, I can't understand that this surprises you. Consumer electronics aren't manufactured anywhere outside of Asia these days. Nokia themselves have factories all over the world, including China, and Vietnam. Anyhow, welcome back to planet earth.
2) It is not called Windows Mobile. It is called Windows Phone. These are two completely different product lines with no relationship to each other, other than both of them being mobile device operating systems.
3) Windows Phone is multi-threaded and always has been. The OS itself is heavily multi-threaded. Windows Phone 7.5 is based on Windows CE 6.5 R3 (real-time OS optimized for low resource environments), which doesn't support multiple CPU cores, which isn't the same thing.
4) If MS had never competed successfully against others, they wouldn't exist today. Go ask IBM.
The rest of your post is either speculation or similarly ridiculously. If you have no idea what you are talking about, then it might be better to remain quiet and not make a fool of yourself.
While I might not agree with his gripes, Nokia is different from all other handset manufacturers / brands since they own and operate major manufacturing facilities employing tens of thousands themselves. Thus if they choose to continue to outsource the product it effectively means the end of Nokia altogether. It's simply not relating or having anything to do with todays company if all they will do is use a couple of thousand engineers and a couple of thousands sales and support-people and outsource the production of the few million Windows Phone units they will be able to sell.
Microsoft-thinking has destroyed or set back many companies, it is not some new hate. We are talking about effectively killing and downsizing a company before turning any losses. We are talking about killing the only mobile OS developed outside North America. We are talking about closing production sites. We are talking about a mindset which goes against any European or really any engineering company. Downsizing, and not having long term plans doesn't go well together with engineering. Companies need some direction. Other Scandinavian companies has had similar problems with North Americans or others coming in and simply not giving the tools to do the job. Simply changing to that direction and expecting the company to live on even older S40 tech is wrong for Nokia. We will see when the Finns name Elop the worst person in history. How Microsoft runs their business doesn't translate to all other companies of the world and when ex-Microsoft people believes that there is usually disastrous consequences. It's clearly some kind of coup in some sense and a dramatic change and a decisions not made for the companies welfare. They already had an environment built on Qt/QtMobility on either Symbian or MeeGo which is every bit as powerful as Windows Phone if not more. It's API-complete and a competent C++ framework. Fits better in terms of hardware and software. The core of Nokia shouldn't be trying to sell S40 in smartphone space. But it is turning to that until they realize it isn't possible any how. Nokia will be left as a company that is not good at anything if they go through with it in the direction they seem to have chosen. It will not be an engineering and manufacturing company any way, and what good will a much smaller reminiscence do to their owner? It's truly a much more dramatic shift then say the finish government which approved it would have expected any how. It's not really about Windows Phone being useless it certainly isn't, but Nokia needs to sell hundreds of millions of phones. They will certianly need something others hasn't and target wider array of the market and different markets (countries).
Android and outsourcing to Android ODM's will lead to the same depletion. Companies need some core competence otherwise they are just selling someone else's product and that doesn't really work that well most disappear in those conditions and the brands consolidate and merge and the market converge. It's why Kindle Fire has more sales then every other android-tablet combined, they bring something of their own to the table. Simply bringing a nameless OEM-product doesn't do much. Many try. It's nothing new that companies give up but most do after major changes to their operations and years of losses.
I understand your point (American and European business culture differs and the two are rarely compatible... although they aren't totally incompatible either). I can agree with that.
I also agree that it isn't a good move for Nokia to outsource production to Compal. But do we know for a fact, that this is intended as a long term solution? I expect that Nokia will move that back in-house again at some point... right now I suspect they aren't selling enough WP devices to make that worthwhile.
Apart from those two things I rather tend to disagree:
1) Samsung has become Asia's most valuable company selling other peoples products (Android devices). Nokia has the same potential.
2) Symbian has been failing for a long time. Long before anyone even knew Elop. Nokia never competed in the high-end smartphone space, and their low-end offerings are taking a brutal beating from cheap Android devices. This is what set the stage for Nokia's current situation. Elop is just the guy that was chosen to clean up the mess.
3) Making good software and high-end Smartphones was never one of Nokia's/Symbian's core competencies, or at least the worlds markets never thought so. Their engineers are very competent, but they were not developing the right things. MeeGo is also in that category. Neither MeeGo nor WP have a killer-feature (the average Joe couldn't care less who has the best Multitasking). However, WP has the much higher potential to develop such a killer-feature (very tight integration between W8 and WP8 for example)
I am also a European and would have preferred OS development to stay in Europe. Yet I agree with Elop's decision. I think he is taking a very big risk, but that is still better than staying with MeeGo where I see no route to success at all, and would have lead to Nokia as a whole becoming irrelevant.
Anyway, all the mistakes leading to this inflection point were made long ago. Now Nokia has no choice but to accept drastic change, and that always hurts.
Nokia may be working on their new core competency. Lots of companies do this same thing and roll just fine. Vizio, Apple to name a few. Do the design then outsource everything else.
I should also add that nokia tried to make symbian work and they failed. They have gone from one of the worlds most recognised phone makers to almost nothing. I mean you can go into any phone provider in the US and I am not sure if you would see any nokia phones.
So ya the whole making a competing OS in Europe thing just did not work out for them.
Symbian was not doomed due to it being developed in Europe. One of the main difficulties was that the developer was essentially a hardware company. Hardware and software development are very different, and requires a different company culture and different management. American hardware companies that attempt software almost always fail as well. Apple is probably the only exception... Apple is probably the worlds only systems company.
Windows has poor multithreading? What are you talking about? Windows has supported multi-tasking (which is what I assume you mean, since only recently (last 5-10 years) have we gotten CPUs capable of operating more than one thread at a time) since Windows 1.0.
WP7 has supported multi-tasking since launch. The API was opened up to 3rd party developers with the 7.5/Mango update.
As an owner of a WP7 phone and a user of iOS, Android, and RIM, I can veritably say that it is the best, most well-designed mobile OS out right now.
Apple doesn't make iPhones either. You may as well get over losing your factory job and realize that in the world economy, you make the product whereever you can get the best deal.
I haven't read past the first page yet, but the weights caught my eye. I don't know if the weight in grams is correct, or the weight in ounces, but there is a discrepancy.
Assuming that grams is correct, the weight, in ounces, of the 800 should be 4.41, and the weight of the 710 is pretty close, but is then a bit more at 4.43.
Thank you for taking time and doing reviews on Windows Phone, it's always nice to see. I have an android device myself, but have always kind of liked the look of WP7
I don't follow the GPU and general hardware reviews as much as I used to, but the scope of those is what brought me to AT in the first place. I now see that same level of detail now with the phone reviews, and I would never purchase a phone without getting the skinny from AT first.
They have become the best on the web. Even the camera reviews are (were?) just as detailed at one time.
What I found interesting is that while neither the 800 or the 710 performed well, though as expected, the LCD screen of the 710 is MUCH brighter than the AMOLED screen of the 800, both phones performed much better than the extremely dismal performance of the N8, a phone which, for some unexplainable reason, is thought by some to be a super phone. To me, it seems a dud.
While integration/overlap with Windows on the PC and with the Xbox is certainly an interesting proposition and would be a boon, that's not what I (and probably a lot of others) are waiting for in order to jump ship to the Windows Phone platform. I love the WP UI, I love the *idea* (though not execution so far) of the controlled hardware platforms as opposed to Android's uncontrolled, fragmented mess and the singular, completely restricted iPhone platform.
What I'm waiting for to jump are:
1) A more modern hardware platform. I understand all the arguments about why WP doesn't *need* a dual-core yadda yadda, but I have no interest in side-grading from my iPhone 4 to a hardware platform with pretty much exactly the same capabilities. I want an *upgrade* for my investment. And besides, when the hardware capability is there, the software that takes advantage of it will follow suit, and I've seen plenty of reports that 3rd-party Silverlight-based software does indeed suffer slowdown. I need at least a dual-core with a reasonably capable GPU.
2) I need an SD-card slot or some other way to increase the available storage. High-end devices with 8, 16, or even 32GB of NAND with no upgradability is simply not sufficient.
3) A quality screen with a pixel density that's at least competitive with what my iPhone 4 has. I don't want to downgrade to a screen that's looks worse.
I'm hoping by the end of this year with WP8 out, attractive hardware will be out so I can jump to the Windows Phone platform and never look back.
Excellent! I agree, and wonder how many other people feel similarly. I suspect you almost have to be a software developer to really appreciate the benefits of the controlled hardware platform. Microsoft's ability to guarantee that every WP device owner will get every update is one such benefit. However, other benefits that are more easily appreciated by end users have yet to materialize.
I don't know about expandable storage, but we know the other issues will be resolved with WP8.
I'm also holding on to my current phone. I will also go for WP8 if: a) we get very tight integration between W8 and WP8 b) we get some AAA applications and games directly from MS which make use of WP8 hardware
We really need some exciting hardware and up to date specs..i love the look of wp7 but i REFUSE to be palmed off with 18month out of date hardware, when i can get something 5x as powerfull for the same price.
Yes i have read all the countless arguements about wp7 being 'processor friendly' and being optimised for the user experience..good for them. But it seems that they have used that rather good selling point to skimp away from the expense of decent screens, features, and processing power.
Yes it does run better than buggy android and caparitivly crap hardware..fantastic but it would run a bit more smoother, have better battery life, and would enable some apps and games that are worthy to hold that xbox moniker..at the moment all i see is crappy indie ports...i was expecting something MUCH better than this.
Still, im a massive fan of nokia, and i love my xbox 360..so my hope is that microkia get there act togther and release something worth buying..
I understand not wanting to pay the same price for inferior hardware... who would?
However, it's currently a fact that you can only have ONE of the following: a) A restrictive hardware policy, enabling MS to push all their updates to all WP7 owners in a timely fashion b) A flexible hardware policy, that allows manufacturers to arbitrarily improve their devices, enabling the WP7 platform compete with android in terms of hardware specs.
Microsoft has chosen (a). I think 90% of a smartphone's value is delivered by the software. Considering that the overwhelming majority of people don't want to bother with rooting their devices and flashing ROMs, I agree with MS that (a) is the right position to take.
As a result, the WP community will always go through long stretches were their hardware is inferior to the best Android deice. With WP8 we will get our short moment in the hardware lime-lite, only to fall behind again shortly thereafter. Going with WP means we accept this and get over it.
At some point the advances in smartphone technology will slow, and even before that many will realize the hardware is only a means-to-an-end. They will realize timely software updates are much more important... and wonder how we could ever like a system like android, that evolves so slowly and only gets one update every year or so.
Yep it is this and lack of choice. Sprint only has a single WP7 device and it lost my dollar because the screen was lower resolution and it was a slower device than the Evo 3D which I picked.
Also when all your phones never come out on top in benchmarks no one is going to be interested.
" if in two years we don't live in a world where there is mindblowing integration between my Windows PC, my Xbox 360 and my Windows Phone - then the platform deserves to fail. Microsoft will have squandered its biggest advantage. "
Two years? Wow...that is overly generous! That would mean 3 1/2 years from introduction to mainstream success, swimming upstream against Apple and Google! I think its worse than that. If we dont see SOME measure of success from THIS generation of Nokia WP7 handsets, including the 710, the 800 and the "flagship" 900, they are sunk! They have been trolling around 1 to 2 percent market share, and FALLING. So if they dont get it together quickly, they will NEVER gain the momentum necessary to even remain a player! Hell, even Palm managed 5% at their height, and the only way Microsoft can report those numbers is when they lump in legacy Windows Mobile phones with them!
Personally, I feel that the phone UI is hideous, and the functionality of the phone is SERIOUSLY lacking in comparison to their Android counterparts. If I want "tiles", I can put them on my Android handset...but if I want to do anything outside of what Microsoft wants their users to do with WP7, I am out of luck! Too limited, too outdated, and too ugly to live! Better luck next time, guys...the Kin2 aint happening!
You can benchmark the camera's color reproduction simply by checking them with deltae; http://delt.ae/ , its a 100% free tool for color checker (amongst other stuff) evaluation.
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deputc26 - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
nexusBrian Klug - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Anand and I are both working on it, and will have it done end of this week :)It shall be epic!
-Brian
bplewis24 - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Thanks, looking forward to it.deputc26 - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Awesome, I don't buy phones 'til I see the AT review. It's amazing to me that no other mobile sites are trying to catch up with the quality of AT reviews.a5cent - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
So true. What others call a review rarely goes beyond a verbose version of the spec sheet (particularly when it involves andriod devices). I also appreciate that Brian takes battery life and display quality seriously... the two most important aspects of any smartphone, provided your purchase isn't just about getting a shiny new status symbol.tipoo - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Same. AT seems to catch little bugs more often than any other site too.niva - Friday, January 6, 2012 - link
I'm real glad of this Lumia 710 review, if my original Samsung Galaxy dies this will probably be the phone I get. Ideally I want to wait for the 2nd generation Nokia phones. The 710 seems better rounded and with less compromises than the 800 to me though. The only real benefit to the 800 is the external design from what I can tell, better screen?jjj - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
That's so... last year!I want Krait.
TareX - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Thank you. I came here just to remind you about the Galaxy Nexus review. I went ahead and bought one last week anyway. I love it. Insane display. The only things that upset me are:1) The low, low, low volume (both speakers, and voice)
2) The phone lags with most live wallpapers (except for Photo Beam)...
Vepsa - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
I want to see you guys give away a nice big pile of Galaxy Nexuses (Nexii?), preferably with one going to me :)augustofretes - Monday, January 9, 2012 - link
You lied to us :( XDKTGiang - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
The Nokia Luma710 isn't the "midrange" product for Nokia. The 800 is the "midrange" product and they haven't announced their high end product for the US yet. I do agree that Nokia doesn't make too much sense right now but at the same time I don't exactly own a successful phone manufacturing company.Brian Klug - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
That's true, I guess I should state that at present those labels are relative - only the 710 and 800 are announced. (Though we'll see what happens at CES...)-Brian
KTGiang - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Yup, you did some good editing for better accuracy. Only people who are up on their Windows Phones news knows that Nokia actually gave a statement saying they didn't release the Lumia 800 in the US because they wanted to make sure they released a proper high end phone to compete in the market over here. Also, they wanted to establish a base and buzz in the rest of the world with the Lumia 800 where they still have phones in the hands of their consumers.name99 - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
You get judged by what you SHIP not by what you plan one day to ship.You know what's a truly awesome phone, way better than ALL this crap Anand is talking about --- the iPhone 7! Man, that thing makes a Lumia 710 look like a Nokia 6235 candybar.
jjj - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
In the US it's all about the high end,the consumer is quite a different beast from most other places and to be fair the price difference is pretty small.Why T-Mo and the 710? Nokia most likely has better relations with T-Mo than with the other US carriers so it was easier to bring the device to market fast and they didn't wanted to give a higeher end device to the smallest of the big 4 or maybe nobody was interesting in heavily subsidizing the 800.As for the device itself i'm not sure it's a better buy than the HTC Radar 4G.
For the ecosystem,it's hard to have faith in Microsoft,they are slow and afraid to innovate,the Windows brand doesn't have the best image and the first steps towards an OS unification are not great.Win 8 might be Vista 2 for traditional PC users.If they don't let us disable the Metro UI on desktops, i know i won't upgrade to Win8,don't need the extra bloat. They'll keep trying to buy their way in,just like they are doing with Bing ( terrible search engine BTW and i use it often) but they need to do better to actually succeed.
dagamer34 - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Afraid to innovate? Have you SEEN Windows 8??jjj - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
have you,or you just have a vague idea about what it is?Nataku - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
u really just sound like u have a grudge towards microsoft now... i've used the dev preview, i admit its not that great for keyboard/mouse use but definitely works wonders once you get touch screen, but thats only the dev preview and ms said they would do something about it (otoh, the new task manager is great)now about innovation, xbox was definitely innovative, wp7/zune dont get enough credit they are some of the the most innovative product as well, sky drive is fantastic now with the new update and fix they have in place (still hate the 100mb file limit though...)
Microsoft isn't the monstrosity it used to be, they actually listen to customers now and do things right, give them another chance
Samus - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
still a shame the Venue Pro is the ONLY WP7 with a keyboard...KTGiang - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
HTC Arrive on Sprint. I use one. Or also known as the HTC HD7 Pro in the rest of the world I believe.Spivonious - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
LG Quantum has one.3lackdeath - Friday, January 6, 2012 - link
The LG C900 also has a physical keyboard.RollingCamel - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
In a previous review you had a Mi-One on your benchmarks and , iiirc, you said that you'll post a review of it soon.kavanoz - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
I live in a European country where the carriers are not subsidizing cell phones. Monthly data+voice cost over a period of time is lower compared to a smartphone price so it makes sense to choose between a cheap and expensive phone. There is no 2 year commitment so you should decide if you want to buy a cheap phone and replace it sooner or an expensive one for longer term.In the US the price over a 2 year contract (with a data plan) is substantial compared to the subsidized smartphone price. Usually high end phones sell for $200 and the cheapest ones are $50 or less. I don't think $150-$200 is much enough compared to the overall cost over 2 years (less than $10/mo) so I would only buy the high end smartphones. Carriers should introduce discounted monthly data+voice plans for cheaper smartphones.
DanNeely - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
The same long term myopia that results in Joe Luser prefering to end up paying more for his phone in higher monthly rates if he doesn't upgrade it every 24 mo on the spot makes paying anything upfront for the phone unattractive. The cash cow of people not upgrading immediately is also why excepting T-Mobile none of the major US carriers offer discounts once your longterm contract is expired and you're no longer paying down a device subsidy.shompa - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
" Microsoft has a great hardware partner in Nokia (arguably one of the best in the business)"Nokia does not built these windows phones. Their insane CEO have outsourced it to South Korean companies (probably HTC). At the same time Nokia's own factories are empty. Nokia's strength were that they could build phones cheaper then anybody else. Now they are locked to a predetermined platform by MSFT and outsource the manufacturing. Since they don't even do the OS, what exactly does Nokia do on their phones today?
BTW. From my knowledge Windows mobile 7.5 is not multi threaded. That is the reason why we only have single core processors. The whole windows platform is played by non/poor multithreading since Windows inception. Google/Apple use *nix. Something that have been multithreaded since late 1960s.
The fact is that MSFT never have been successful in any business there they have had competition. Still today 94% of MSFT profit comes from Windows/Office. Its only in monopoly business that people accept poor products and insane prices. Somehow Office costs 300 dollars on Windows, while MSFT Office for mac can be bought for 30 dollar. The difference is that MSFT have competition on mac. Even at 30 dollars people don't buy it.
Only way for MSFT to make Windows Mobile successful is that they do like they did with Xbox. MSFT have to eat huge losses for almost 10 years. MSFT have already started this strategy by giving free Xbox360 consoles to people who buys Lumia phones and spending hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising.
I have worked for Nokia. They have a special place in my heart. They will not survive with this insane CEO they have. He needs to be fired as soon as possible and Nokia needs to make good Android phones. MSFT mobile won't be successful.
a5cent - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
It sounds like you have personal grievances with Elop, and you're allowing that to cloud your objectivity. Most of your post is ill informed blathering...1)
Yes, the Lumia 800 is manufactured by Compal, based in Taipei City (not HTC). However, I can't understand that this surprises you. Consumer electronics aren't manufactured anywhere outside of Asia these days. Nokia themselves have factories all over the world, including China, and Vietnam. Anyhow, welcome back to planet earth.
2)
It is not called Windows Mobile. It is called Windows Phone. These are two completely different product lines with no relationship to each other, other than both of them being mobile device operating systems.
3)
Windows Phone is multi-threaded and always has been. The OS itself is heavily multi-threaded. Windows Phone 7.5 is based on Windows CE 6.5 R3 (real-time OS optimized for low resource environments), which doesn't support multiple CPU cores, which isn't the same thing.
4)
If MS had never competed successfully against others, they wouldn't exist today. Go ask IBM.
The rest of your post is either speculation or similarly ridiculously. If you have no idea what you are talking about, then it might be better to remain quiet and not make a fool of yourself.
Penti - Friday, January 6, 2012 - link
While I might not agree with his gripes, Nokia is different from all other handset manufacturers / brands since they own and operate major manufacturing facilities employing tens of thousands themselves. Thus if they choose to continue to outsource the product it effectively means the end of Nokia altogether. It's simply not relating or having anything to do with todays company if all they will do is use a couple of thousand engineers and a couple of thousands sales and support-people and outsource the production of the few million Windows Phone units they will be able to sell.Microsoft-thinking has destroyed or set back many companies, it is not some new hate. We are talking about effectively killing and downsizing a company before turning any losses. We are talking about killing the only mobile OS developed outside North America. We are talking about closing production sites. We are talking about a mindset which goes against any European or really any engineering company. Downsizing, and not having long term plans doesn't go well together with engineering. Companies need some direction. Other Scandinavian companies has had similar problems with North Americans or others coming in and simply not giving the tools to do the job. Simply changing to that direction and expecting the company to live on even older S40 tech is wrong for Nokia. We will see when the Finns name Elop the worst person in history. How Microsoft runs their business doesn't translate to all other companies of the world and when ex-Microsoft people believes that there is usually disastrous consequences. It's clearly some kind of coup in some sense and a dramatic change and a decisions not made for the companies welfare. They already had an environment built on Qt/QtMobility on either Symbian or MeeGo which is every bit as powerful as Windows Phone if not more. It's API-complete and a competent C++ framework. Fits better in terms of hardware and software. The core of Nokia shouldn't be trying to sell S40 in smartphone space. But it is turning to that until they realize it isn't possible any how. Nokia will be left as a company that is not good at anything if they go through with it in the direction they seem to have chosen. It will not be an engineering and manufacturing company any way, and what good will a much smaller reminiscence do to their owner? It's truly a much more dramatic shift then say the finish government which approved it would have expected any how. It's not really about Windows Phone being useless it certainly isn't, but Nokia needs to sell hundreds of millions of phones. They will certianly need something others hasn't and target wider array of the market and different markets (countries).
Android and outsourcing to Android ODM's will lead to the same depletion. Companies need some core competence otherwise they are just selling someone else's product and that doesn't really work that well most disappear in those conditions and the brands consolidate and merge and the market converge. It's why Kindle Fire has more sales then every other android-tablet combined, they bring something of their own to the table. Simply bringing a nameless OEM-product doesn't do much. Many try. It's nothing new that companies give up but most do after major changes to their operations and years of losses.
a5cent - Friday, January 6, 2012 - link
I understand your point (American and European business culture differs and the two are rarely compatible... although they aren't totally incompatible either). I can agree with that.I also agree that it isn't a good move for Nokia to outsource production to Compal. But do we know for a fact, that this is intended as a long term solution? I expect that Nokia will move that back in-house again at some point... right now I suspect they aren't selling enough WP devices to make that worthwhile.
Apart from those two things I rather tend to disagree:
1)
Samsung has become Asia's most valuable company selling other peoples products (Android devices). Nokia has the same potential.
2)
Symbian has been failing for a long time. Long before anyone even knew Elop. Nokia never competed in the high-end smartphone space, and their low-end offerings are taking a brutal beating from cheap Android devices. This is what set the stage for Nokia's current situation. Elop is just the guy that was chosen to clean up the mess.
3)
Making good software and high-end Smartphones was never one of Nokia's/Symbian's core competencies, or at least the worlds markets never thought so. Their engineers are very competent, but they were not developing the right things. MeeGo is also in that category. Neither MeeGo nor WP have a killer-feature (the average Joe couldn't care less who has the best Multitasking). However, WP has the much higher potential to develop such a killer-feature (very tight integration between W8 and WP8 for example)
I am also a European and would have preferred OS development to stay in Europe. Yet I agree with Elop's decision. I think he is taking a very big risk, but that is still better than staying with MeeGo where I see no route to success at all, and would have lead to Nokia as a whole becoming irrelevant.
Anyway, all the mistakes leading to this inflection point were made long ago. Now Nokia has no choice but to accept drastic change, and that always hurts.
PubFiction - Sunday, January 8, 2012 - link
Nokia may be working on their new core competency. Lots of companies do this same thing and roll just fine. Vizio, Apple to name a few. Do the design then outsource everything else.PubFiction - Sunday, January 8, 2012 - link
I should also add that nokia tried to make symbian work and they failed. They have gone from one of the worlds most recognised phone makers to almost nothing. I mean you can go into any phone provider in the US and I am not sure if you would see any nokia phones.So ya the whole making a competing OS in Europe thing just did not work out for them.
a5cent - Monday, January 9, 2012 - link
Symbian was not doomed due to it being developed in Europe. One of the main difficulties was that the developer was essentially a hardware company. Hardware and software development are very different, and requires a different company culture and different management. American hardware companies that attempt software almost always fail as well. Apple is probably the only exception... Apple is probably the worlds only systems company.Spivonious - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Windows has poor multithreading? What are you talking about? Windows has supported multi-tasking (which is what I assume you mean, since only recently (last 5-10 years) have we gotten CPUs capable of operating more than one thread at a time) since Windows 1.0.WP7 has supported multi-tasking since launch. The API was opened up to 3rd party developers with the 7.5/Mango update.
As an owner of a WP7 phone and a user of iOS, Android, and RIM, I can veritably say that it is the best, most well-designed mobile OS out right now.
Apple doesn't make iPhones either. You may as well get over losing your factory job and realize that in the world economy, you make the product whereever you can get the best deal.
melgross - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
I haven't read past the first page yet, but the weights caught my eye. I don't know if the weight in grams is correct, or the weight in ounces, but there is a discrepancy.Assuming that grams is correct, the weight, in ounces, of the 800 should be 4.41, and the weight of the 710 is pretty close, but is then a bit more at 4.43.
jsv35 - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Thank you for taking time and doing reviews on Windows Phone, it's always nice to see. I have an android device myself, but have always kind of liked the look of WP7zinfamous - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
Agreed.I don't follow the GPU and general hardware reviews as much as I used to, but the scope of those is what brought me to AT in the first place. I now see that same level of detail now with the phone reviews, and I would never purchase a phone without getting the skinny from AT first.
They have become the best on the web. Even the camera reviews are (were?) just as detailed at one time.
Kudos.
melgross - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
What I found interesting is that while neither the 800 or the 710 performed well, though as expected, the LCD screen of the 710 is MUCH brighter than the AMOLED screen of the 800, both phones performed much better than the extremely dismal performance of the N8, a phone which, for some unexplainable reason, is thought by some to be a super phone. To me, it seems a dud.kyuu - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
While integration/overlap with Windows on the PC and with the Xbox is certainly an interesting proposition and would be a boon, that's not what I (and probably a lot of others) are waiting for in order to jump ship to the Windows Phone platform. I love the WP UI, I love the *idea* (though not execution so far) of the controlled hardware platforms as opposed to Android's uncontrolled, fragmented mess and the singular, completely restricted iPhone platform.What I'm waiting for to jump are:
1) A more modern hardware platform. I understand all the arguments about why WP doesn't *need* a dual-core yadda yadda, but I have no interest in side-grading from my iPhone 4 to a hardware platform with pretty much exactly the same capabilities. I want an *upgrade* for my investment. And besides, when the hardware capability is there, the software that takes advantage of it will follow suit, and I've seen plenty of reports that 3rd-party Silverlight-based software does indeed suffer slowdown. I need at least a dual-core with a reasonably capable GPU.
2) I need an SD-card slot or some other way to increase the available storage. High-end devices with 8, 16, or even 32GB of NAND with no upgradability is simply not sufficient.
3) A quality screen with a pixel density that's at least competitive with what my iPhone 4 has. I don't want to downgrade to a screen that's looks worse.
I'm hoping by the end of this year with WP8 out, attractive hardware will be out so I can jump to the Windows Phone platform and never look back.
a5cent - Friday, January 6, 2012 - link
Excellent! I agree, and wonder how many other people feel similarly. I suspect you almost have to be a software developer to really appreciate the benefits of the controlled hardware platform. Microsoft's ability to guarantee that every WP device owner will get every update is one such benefit. However, other benefits that are more easily appreciated by end users have yet to materialize.I don't know about expandable storage, but we know the other issues will be resolved with WP8.
I'm also holding on to my current phone. I will also go for WP8 if:
a) we get very tight integration between W8 and WP8
b) we get some AAA applications and games directly from MS which make use of WP8 hardware
french toast - Friday, January 6, 2012 - link
We really need some exciting hardware and up to date specs..i love the look of wp7 but i REFUSE to be palmed off with 18month out of date hardware, when i can get something 5x as powerfull for the same price.Yes i have read all the countless arguements about wp7 being 'processor friendly' and being optimised for the user experience..good for them.
But it seems that they have used that rather good selling point to skimp away from the expense of decent screens, features, and processing power.
Yes it does run better than buggy android and caparitivly crap hardware..fantastic but it would run a bit more smoother, have better battery life, and would enable some apps and games that are worthy to hold that xbox moniker..at the moment all i see is crappy indie ports...i was expecting something MUCH better than this.
Still, im a massive fan of nokia, and i love my xbox 360..so my hope is that microkia get there act togther and release something worth buying..
a5cent - Saturday, January 7, 2012 - link
I understand not wanting to pay the same price for inferior hardware... who would?However, it's currently a fact that you can only have ONE of the following:
a) A restrictive hardware policy, enabling MS to push all their updates to all WP7 owners in a timely fashion
b) A flexible hardware policy, that allows manufacturers to arbitrarily improve their devices, enabling the WP7 platform compete with android in terms of hardware specs.
Microsoft has chosen (a). I think 90% of a smartphone's value is delivered by the software. Considering that the overwhelming majority of people don't want to bother with rooting their devices and flashing ROMs, I agree with MS that (a) is the right position to take.
As a result, the WP community will always go through long stretches were their hardware is inferior to the best Android deice. With WP8 we will get our short moment in the hardware lime-lite, only to fall behind again shortly thereafter. Going with WP means we accept this and get over it.
At some point the advances in smartphone technology will slow, and even before that many will realize the hardware is only a means-to-an-end. They will realize timely software updates are much more important... and wonder how we could ever like a system like android, that evolves so slowly and only gets one update every year or so.
PubFiction - Sunday, January 8, 2012 - link
Yep it is this and lack of choice. Sprint only has a single WP7 device and it lost my dollar because the screen was lower resolution and it was a slower device than the Evo 3D which I picked.Also when all your phones never come out on top in benchmarks no one is going to be interested.
Wolfpup - Thursday, January 5, 2012 - link
I wish they'd devote 2-4x the bandwidth at least so calls actually sounded decent.binqq - Friday, January 6, 2012 - link
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burntham77 - Saturday, January 7, 2012 - link
These are neat phones, but I still have not found a WP7 phone that could replace my Android phone and Zune. Someday, perhaps. Someday.jnemesh - Monday, January 16, 2012 - link
" if in two years we don't live in a world where there is mindblowing integration between my Windows PC, my Xbox 360 and my Windows Phone - then the platform deserves to fail. Microsoft will have squandered its biggest advantage. "Two years? Wow...that is overly generous! That would mean 3 1/2 years from introduction to mainstream success, swimming upstream against Apple and Google! I think its worse than that. If we dont see SOME measure of success from THIS generation of Nokia WP7 handsets, including the 710, the 800 and the "flagship" 900, they are sunk! They have been trolling around 1 to 2 percent market share, and FALLING. So if they dont get it together quickly, they will NEVER gain the momentum necessary to even remain a player! Hell, even Palm managed 5% at their height, and the only way Microsoft can report those numbers is when they lump in legacy Windows Mobile phones with them!
Personally, I feel that the phone UI is hideous, and the functionality of the phone is SERIOUSLY lacking in comparison to their Android counterparts. If I want "tiles", I can put them on my Android handset...but if I want to do anything outside of what Microsoft wants their users to do with WP7, I am out of luck! Too limited, too outdated, and too ugly to live! Better luck next time, guys...the Kin2 aint happening!
Timz - Thursday, June 21, 2012 - link
You can benchmark the camera's color reproduction simply by checking them with deltae; http://delt.ae/ , its a 100% free tool for color checker (amongst other stuff) evaluation.