I was going crazy trying to figure out what part of my system was causing me problems with Arkham City. I'm (semi) glad it's not just me! Using 2x 470s + amd x6 @ 4ghz I had the same problem where the benchmark would in a few spots always drop to like 0-1 fps and the avg fps was around 35-40. The Lion head first glimpse chops a ton, but panning around the side the FPS resolves. I REALLY hope they fix this release because it is a pretty fun game, but I want to enjoy DX11!
Considering the problem is exactly the same on NVIDIA and AMD GPUs, I'd say it's far more likely to be the game code. It's as though the engine is parsing objects and loading them/compiling them as you rotate. Stand still and frame rates are fine; turn quickly and they'll often tank.
Other games have had similar problems and it's been drivers. But it seems it might be an actual Unreal Engine 3 DX11 problem rather than the game itself... but my point is it's not 100% certain it's a game problem, but the article makes it seem like it definitely is. Other bugs like the cloud problem should definitely be the game though.
One: If the drivers were such that performance sucked, then performance sucked regardless of the drivers and the game should have been debugged/optimized to address the problem.
Two: There's no hotfix driver from AMD or Beta driver from NVIDIA that improves performance.
Three: The DX11 mode is for PC only, thus put in as an enhancement, and thus not given the same amount of testing and debugging.
Four: DX11 is hardly new at this point; the first DX11 cards came out back in 2008 I think (or early 2009), and the DX11 software launched with Windows 7 two years ago.
If this is predominantly a driver problem, I'll turn in my geek card.
Sigh, another sad case of consolitis. I was hoping Batman was not going to get hit with that even after the delays, but its becoming quite clear that any non-PC Only game will suffer from inherent issues like these on launch, and you just have to suck it up and wait for that glorious first patch.
back to my heavily tweaked version of Skyrim for now :)
OnLive is shit. And the PC games are still going run on ... PC's. Just at their end. So now you get the bugs and lower quality graphics from streamed video, not to mention lag..
They don't just run on "PCs" but run on super computers. and if you have a decent connection there will be no lower quality nor lags. So basically either you have a good high-end PC, or only a good internet connection.
But those super computers are also just a bunch of computers using the same components your PC uses, except that they have tons of them installed. They also have to use x86 processors and NVidia or Ati graphic cards with DX11 support. So if the game has a graphics bug (which it has with DX11) OnLive will suffer from the same issues, except they turn DX11 off. And the video stream gets compressed, thus you lose quality. They also don't set the settings to the highest possible probably (waste of ressources on their end), so quality loss. And in the end you have a lag. Measure the ping from your PC to google. Multiply it with two (up/down), and add a few ms for the OnLive servers to process your commands. So you get?
Since Crysis DX11 was brought up, I wonder what was the better option: release first and patch later a la Batman or hold and release when it's done a la Crysis 2? Launching with DX11 in time for Thanksgiving was probably a big motivation, but I'm sure checking that DX11 box to avoid getting slammed by PC gamers and PC reviewers was also a motivation. It would be nice to see DX9 vs DX11 comparisons to see how much visual difference DX11 adds.
I wish companies would do a fleshed out PC build on launch but that seems unlikely. I would have preferred a release on time with the consoles and just having dx9 support until dx11 patch. The benchmark is definitely absolutely horrible with the number of dx11 glitches, but in the start of the game the rock bottom FPS wasn't common. I have still switched over to dx9 until they fix their problems. Batman is too fun to pass up.
As a software developer, the "right" answer is "release now, patch in DX11 later". One thing that I have learned over the years is that customers appreciate more a product that does 90% of what you promised now, then patch in the last 10% in 6 months, than a product that does 100% in 4 more months.
As weird as it sounds, that's been my experience with every customer I've ever dealt with. Now, my customers aren't really the "general public", so maybe my view is skewed. I think that dumping in something that doesn't work (ie DX11 capabilities) was a mistake, and they should probably have patched it in later. However, given that this is a general public release, and given that Thanksgiving is a substantial time for sales, there are other forces at work. Generally, if that's the case, the release date should probably have been targeted for July, with a few months of slack to fix these odd optimization problems.
I'll wait and see if they can patch things up then. I have a similar 2560x1440 setup with SLI GTX 460 cards. Either way, between Skyrim, BF3, the DOTA 2 beta, and laddering in Starcraft 2, I have more games than I have time. I can wait. :)
My experiences the last few years has convinced me not to buy games near launch anymore. Now I wait at least a few months for reviews to come out, the game to get patched, the price to drop, and possibly for nasty DRM to be removed (in patches). Game companies today are really screwing themselves. I have completely lost faith in them. If they can't deliver a quality product they don't deserve my money. If they want to release a game riddled with nasty DRM, they won't be getting my money. If people stop paying top dollar for garbage the game companies will have to listen. Or maybe they will just blame it on pirates.
Unfortunately if recent history is anything to go by iDRM is just going to get more invasive. BF3's HDD scan is way over the line not to mention all the crap Ubisoft is up to. I've been running all games from a dedicated partition on my computer keeping my productivity system encrypted just in case.
However at this point I'm not interested in jumping through all the hoops just to keep my productivity system clean and just stopped buying these games to begin with.
I'd rather not play the game than risk compromising my system with all kinds of crap publishers riddle their software with. Too it's sad though since many talented developers will never see a dime of my money because of it.
AFAIK that's the anti-cheating mechanism, punkbuster, not the DRM. Besides, it's not like what you're saying. It just checks for some cheating related stuff not your photos or videos or anything else.
I guess your work PC needs to have that powerful GPU/CPU to crunch rendering stuff, but for me I just use my laptop hooked to the LCD screen to do work, and the gaming/HTPC to do everything else. Much less headaches.
FYI, Steam pushed a patch last night. I was going to finally launch the game around midnight last night, after downloading it for two days straight, and instead found that Steam was pushing a 1.5GB patch. I don't see any release notes or evidence of a version change, and I can't compare what I have to the original release.
Not trying to be contrarian, but I'm a bit surprised at some of the wording in the article. Isn't this behavior (running poorly until graphics are dropped down) typical of many new games? No one said Crysis was bugged when some folks had to play it at DX9 settings.
I get there's probably more to it, and maybe things shouldn't be night and day switching from DX11 to DX10, but to you where's the line between broken implementation and just plain demanding game?
It's the massive fluctuations in performance in DX11 mode, plus my contacts from the GPU guys say that there's a "known issue with DX11" and Rocksteady is working to get it patched.
Crysis 1 was so much better looking than anything else from its release date until Metro 2033 came out, that its demanding performance was more than justified. Even today, not many games are better looking than this 4 year old title!! Contrary to this, the graphics in Batman are nothing special. There is no way a game like Batman should be running at 30 fps with dips to single digits on a $450 GTX580!
Also, the fact that performance doesn't improve by removing key DX11 features such as tessellation is a sure sign DX11 codepath is borked. Since performance skyrockets in DX9, while still retaining PhysX and everything on high supports Jarred's viewpoint that the only logical conclusion is an unoptimized DX11 codepath/bug (since this also affects AMD cards).
Poor console ports, rushed releases and infested with drm malware. The saves corruption is not new, it happens ofter in Arkham Asylum, it's a gfwl problem, and if they added steam cloud saves to the recipe...
Stop acting like spoiled kids who have to have it all right now, **do not pre purchase games**, wait until the first few bugs are ironed out and the most important, vote with your wallets against DRM infested releases like this one.
Any of those and the combination of all three will send a clear message to publishers putting out crap like this, which btw is now happening way to often.
I agree, I made a similar comment when RAGE was released. This is getting beyond a joke, even the massive blockbuster games are seriously flawed or buggy in one way or another when released. Its happening way too often.
I hope Anandtech or somebody can do a story on it. Games are expensive and so is gaming hardware, we deserve better than this BS treatment.
I thought maybe they do it on purpose to thwart the pirate guys, because they usually pirate the game on release, maybe they want users to NEED patch updates to run the game properly and they're trying to make pirating the game too bothersome.
Or they just dont care about PC gamers like they do about consoles because consoles is where the money is. But thats no excuse these games are making hundreds of millions of dollars.
I'm losing my faith in games, they're usually broken or even if they work, its just a sequel and the same old stuff we've seen before. BF3 and MW3 are the most over-rated games ever, same game different map.
That why I look forward to games like Batman, at least its original, even though its a sequel its something different from the rest....but it doesnt run omg.....
An artcle by Anandtech on the state of PC gaming would be interesting at this juncture. Lot of games promise a visual experience that would kick Crysis in the butt, however it all is watered down nonsense with useless 'patches' later after release. I too spent on my machine looking at a few promising games this year but it's been a waste.
What baffles me is how game producers are definitely reading feedback all over the Internet ; however do nothing different. Meh.
Remind the staff they are there to work on producing a quality product.
Remove the fussball table, lock away smartphones and personal laptops and other such distractions.
Tell staff there will be a substantial bonus payable if the game arrives on time and fulfills all the quality criteria for release. If it doesn't then bonus gets cut entirely or reduces 25% for each month its overdue. After 4 months, zip!
At the end of the day staff have to know what they are there to do and what they are paid for. Many times I view staff seeing work as an annoying distraction between Facebook, the next latte and Twitter.
Doesn't apply in all cases I know but its getting a problem in a lot of places. Needs a little refocusing.
I could understand one game getting out with a development DX11 build, but not two in less than 6 months considering how few are released for the PC that have uber-graphics.
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MarkLuvsCS - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
I was going crazy trying to figure out what part of my system was causing me problems with Arkham City. I'm (semi) glad it's not just me! Using 2x 470s + amd x6 @ 4ghz I had the same problem where the benchmark would in a few spots always drop to like 0-1 fps and the avg fps was around 35-40. The Lion head first glimpse chops a ton, but panning around the side the FPS resolves. I REALLY hope they fix this release because it is a pretty fun game, but I want to enjoy DX11!B3an - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
Why do people always assume it's the game, and the same with this article. It could just as likely be graphics drivers. DX11 is new to the UE3 engine.JarredWalton - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
Considering the problem is exactly the same on NVIDIA and AMD GPUs, I'd say it's far more likely to be the game code. It's as though the engine is parsing objects and loading them/compiling them as you rotate. Stand still and frame rates are fine; turn quickly and they'll often tank.gplracer - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
The sad part is that this game was delayed 1.5 years. I think they had enough time to get it right.hadphild - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Just think Duke Nukem Forever. Now that is what I call a delay.Leonick - Monday, November 28, 2011 - link
Delayed 1.5 years? Arkham Asylum Came out two years ago...Your not saying they've only done half a year worth of work to get to Arkham CIty are you?!
B3an - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Other games have had similar problems and it's been drivers. But it seems it might be an actual Unreal Engine 3 DX11 problem rather than the game itself... but my point is it's not 100% certain it's a game problem, but the article makes it seem like it definitely is. Other bugs like the cloud problem should definitely be the game though.JarredWalton - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
One: If the drivers were such that performance sucked, then performance sucked regardless of the drivers and the game should have been debugged/optimized to address the problem.Two: There's no hotfix driver from AMD or Beta driver from NVIDIA that improves performance.
Three: The DX11 mode is for PC only, thus put in as an enhancement, and thus not given the same amount of testing and debugging.
Four: DX11 is hardly new at this point; the first DX11 cards came out back in 2008 I think (or early 2009), and the DX11 software launched with Windows 7 two years ago.
If this is predominantly a driver problem, I'll turn in my geek card.
pc_void - Friday, November 25, 2011 - link
Jared appears to be quite logically correct. He must be Volcan!pc_void - Friday, November 25, 2011 - link
Vulcan. doh!lyeoh - Sunday, November 27, 2011 - link
OK, you get your geek card back, but you're on probation now... ;)maxgrax - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
Sigh, another sad case of consolitis. I was hoping Batman was not going to get hit with that even after the delays, but its becoming quite clear that any non-PC Only game will suffer from inherent issues like these on launch, and you just have to suck it up and wait for that glorious first patch.back to my heavily tweaked version of Skyrim for now :)
userone - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
OnLive FTW. Seriously.B3an - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
OnLive is shit. And the PC games are still going run on ... PC's. Just at their end. So now you get the bugs and lower quality graphics from streamed video, not to mention lag..Pensive - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
They don't just run on "PCs" but run on super computers. and if you have a decent connection there will be no lower quality nor lags. So basically either you have a good high-end PC, or only a good internet connection.UpSpin - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
But those super computers are also just a bunch of computers using the same components your PC uses, except that they have tons of them installed. They also have to use x86 processors and NVidia or Ati graphic cards with DX11 support.So if the game has a graphics bug (which it has with DX11) OnLive will suffer from the same issues, except they turn DX11 off.
And the video stream gets compressed, thus you lose quality. They also don't set the settings to the highest possible probably (waste of ressources on their end), so quality loss. And in the end you have a lag. Measure the ping from your PC to google. Multiply it with two (up/down), and add a few ms for the OnLive servers to process your commands. So you get?
arjuna1 - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Onlive?? you mean you are comfortable with streaming content? Congratulations on supporting the death of gaming as we know it.ltcommanderdata - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
Since Crysis DX11 was brought up, I wonder what was the better option: release first and patch later a la Batman or hold and release when it's done a la Crysis 2? Launching with DX11 in time for Thanksgiving was probably a big motivation, but I'm sure checking that DX11 box to avoid getting slammed by PC gamers and PC reviewers was also a motivation. It would be nice to see DX9 vs DX11 comparisons to see how much visual difference DX11 adds.MarkLuvsCS - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
I wish companies would do a fleshed out PC build on launch but that seems unlikely. I would have preferred a release on time with the consoles and just having dx9 support until dx11 patch. The benchmark is definitely absolutely horrible with the number of dx11 glitches, but in the start of the game the rock bottom FPS wasn't common. I have still switched over to dx9 until they fix their problems. Batman is too fun to pass up.erple2 - Friday, November 25, 2011 - link
As a software developer, the "right" answer is "release now, patch in DX11 later". One thing that I have learned over the years is that customers appreciate more a product that does 90% of what you promised now, then patch in the last 10% in 6 months, than a product that does 100% in 4 more months.As weird as it sounds, that's been my experience with every customer I've ever dealt with. Now, my customers aren't really the "general public", so maybe my view is skewed. I think that dumping in something that doesn't work (ie DX11 capabilities) was a mistake, and they should probably have patched it in later. However, given that this is a general public release, and given that Thanksgiving is a substantial time for sales, there are other forces at work. Generally, if that's the case, the release date should probably have been targeted for July, with a few months of slack to fix these odd optimization problems.
jabber - Saturday, November 26, 2011 - link
Whatever happened to just getting it right first time?Other products manage it so why not software?
One word - Laziness.
KoolAidMan1 - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
I'll wait and see if they can patch things up then. I have a similar 2560x1440 setup with SLI GTX 460 cards. Either way, between Skyrim, BF3, the DOTA 2 beta, and laddering in Starcraft 2, I have more games than I have time. I can wait. :)MWink - Wednesday, November 23, 2011 - link
My experiences the last few years has convinced me not to buy games near launch anymore. Now I wait at least a few months for reviews to come out, the game to get patched, the price to drop, and possibly for nasty DRM to be removed (in patches). Game companies today are really screwing themselves. I have completely lost faith in them. If they can't deliver a quality product they don't deserve my money. If they want to release a game riddled with nasty DRM, they won't be getting my money. If people stop paying top dollar for garbage the game companies will have to listen. Or maybe they will just blame it on pirates.vectorm12 - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Unfortunately if recent history is anything to go by iDRM is just going to get more invasive. BF3's HDD scan is way over the line not to mention all the crap Ubisoft is up to. I've been running all games from a dedicated partition on my computer keeping my productivity system encrypted just in case.However at this point I'm not interested in jumping through all the hoops just to keep my productivity system clean and just stopped buying these games to begin with.
I'd rather not play the game than risk compromising my system with all kinds of crap publishers riddle their software with. Too it's sad though since many talented developers will never see a dime of my money because of it.
eddman - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
"BF3's HDD scan is way over the line"AFAIK that's the anti-cheating mechanism, punkbuster, not the DRM. Besides, it's not like what you're saying. It just checks for some cheating related stuff not your photos or videos or anything else.
chrnochime - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
I guess your work PC needs to have that powerful GPU/CPU to crunch rendering stuff, but for me I just use my laptop hooked to the LCD screen to do work, and the gaming/HTPC to do everything else. Much less headaches.Tarvaln - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Typo?"Originally launched last most for the PS3 and Xbox 360 consoles,"
TerdFerguson - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
FYI, Steam pushed a patch last night. I was going to finally launch the game around midnight last night, after downloading it for two days straight, and instead found that Steam was pushing a 1.5GB patch. I don't see any release notes or evidence of a version change, and I can't compare what I have to the original release.Sunrise089 - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Jarred,Not trying to be contrarian, but I'm a bit surprised at some of the wording in the article. Isn't this behavior (running poorly until graphics are dropped down) typical of many new games? No one said Crysis was bugged when some folks had to play it at DX9 settings.
I get there's probably more to it, and maybe things shouldn't be night and day switching from DX11 to DX10, but to you where's the line between broken implementation and just plain demanding game?
JarredWalton - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
It's the massive fluctuations in performance in DX11 mode, plus my contacts from the GPU guys say that there's a "known issue with DX11" and Rocksteady is working to get it patched.RussianSensation - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Crysis 1 was so much better looking than anything else from its release date until Metro 2033 came out, that its demanding performance was more than justified. Even today, not many games are better looking than this 4 year old title!! Contrary to this, the graphics in Batman are nothing special. There is no way a game like Batman should be running at 30 fps with dips to single digits on a $450 GTX580!Also, the fact that performance doesn't improve by removing key DX11 features such as tessellation is a sure sign DX11 codepath is borked. Since performance skyrockets in DX9, while still retaining PhysX and everything on high supports Jarred's viewpoint that the only logical conclusion is an unoptimized DX11 codepath/bug (since this also affects AMD cards).
Th-z - Friday, November 25, 2011 - link
http://community.batmanarkhamcity.com/forums/showt...arjuna1 - Thursday, November 24, 2011 - link
Poor console ports, rushed releases and infested with drm malware. The saves corruption is not new, it happens ofter in Arkham Asylum, it's a gfwl problem, and if they added steam cloud saves to the recipe...Stop acting like spoiled kids who have to have it all right now, **do not pre purchase games**, wait until the first few bugs are ironed out and the most important, vote with your wallets against DRM infested releases like this one.
Any of those and the combination of all three will send a clear message to publishers putting out crap like this, which btw is now happening way to often.
cactusdog - Friday, November 25, 2011 - link
I agree, I made a similar comment when RAGE was released. This is getting beyond a joke, even the massive blockbuster games are seriously flawed or buggy in one way or another when released. Its happening way too often.I hope Anandtech or somebody can do a story on it. Games are expensive and so is gaming hardware, we deserve better than this BS treatment.
I thought maybe they do it on purpose to thwart the pirate guys, because they usually pirate the game on release, maybe they want users to NEED patch updates to run the game properly and they're trying to make pirating the game too bothersome.
Or they just dont care about PC gamers like they do about consoles because consoles is where the money is. But thats no excuse these games are making hundreds of millions of dollars.
I'm losing my faith in games, they're usually broken or even if they work, its just a sequel and the same old stuff we've seen before. BF3 and MW3 are the most over-rated games ever, same game different map.
That why I look forward to games like Batman, at least its original, even though its a sequel its something different from the rest....but it doesnt run omg.....
at80eighty - Friday, November 25, 2011 - link
An artcle by Anandtech on the state of PC gaming would be interesting at this juncture. Lot of games promise a visual experience that would kick Crysis in the butt, however it all is watered down nonsense with useless 'patches' later after release. I too spent on my machine looking at a few promising games this year but it's been a waste.What baffles me is how game producers are definitely reading feedback all over the Internet ; however do nothing different. Meh.
jabber - Saturday, November 26, 2011 - link
Remind the staff they are there to work on producing a quality product.Remove the fussball table, lock away smartphones and personal laptops and other such distractions.
Tell staff there will be a substantial bonus payable if the game arrives on time and fulfills all the quality criteria for release. If it doesn't then bonus gets cut entirely or reduces 25% for each month its overdue. After 4 months, zip!
At the end of the day staff have to know what they are there to do and what they are paid for. Many times I view staff seeing work as an annoying distraction between Facebook, the next latte and Twitter.
Doesn't apply in all cases I know but its getting a problem in a lot of places. Needs a little refocusing.
Lerianis - Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - link
I could understand one game getting out with a development DX11 build, but not two in less than 6 months considering how few are released for the PC that have uber-graphics.shin0bi272 - Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - link
Thanks for the heads up. I was thinking of getting this game but now I think I'll either wait till theres a patch or not get it at all.