"It should be noted that, according to the Gigabyte website, the DVI-D does not support D-Sub by adaptor, and that when on integrated graphics, the connector cannot be changed while the motherboard is powered up."
This sort of no plug and play nonsense is a throwback to the 90s, and has no business on a modern board.
This is quite misleading, as both mobos use a DVI-D. So also both do not support D-Sub via adapter, Gigabyte is just the only manufacturer that clearly stresses this issue, all others assume that you know what the difference between DVI-D and DVI-I is.
Also no word is left, that the gigabyte board is capable of Dual Link DVI, while the asus only allows single link, which enables only a limited range of display resolutions. As Dual Link on Llano boards is not very common, that would surely be some important fact to mention.
I'm also not quite sure, what gigabyte means with "All integrated graphics ports do not support Hot plug. If you want to change to another graphics port when the computer is on, be sure to turn off the computer first." Maybe just a false translation, meaning you have to reboot the system, when changing the output (as the display driver doesn't switch the output automatically, you have to do that manually in the driver or by rebooting).
It's the no-hotplug part that apalled me, I should've trimmed the 1st part of the sentence away to be clearer but was in a rush for the shower by the time I finished reading the articel.
I'm not sure if that is really that strict as this statement shows. The Gigabyte translations are often not very good and the real meaning is quite different to the written text.
When you change your display from DVI to DP, you have to do a reboot as the driver won't switch automatically. That's because you could just pull out a plug by hitting the cable accidentally. So the driver holds the primary output on the plug that was used before, only a reboot initiates a rescan of the displays and switches to another one.
So maybe gigabyte wanted to express this. That would definitely be something to try out. But i can't imagine that you cannot plug in a second monitor on a running system, that would really be some strange behavior.
Yea, DVI-D doesn't support DVI to VGA adapter as there is no 4 analog pins on that DVI port. Also even if it doesn't have that 4 pin, the adapter still won't fit as the analog ground (that horizontal pin) on the adapter is a tad wider.
Really like layout of Gigabyte board. Although this is more of a problem with M-ATX boards I have struggled recently with fitting both graphics card with waterblock and a air cooler over the memory (fits but is incredibly tight) so seeing the PCIEx1 slot above the PCIex16 is a good move.
What are all those legacy PCI slots doing there? What do people use them for? Across 5 computers at home I use 2 - I for a really old RAID card and one for a TV tuner. Is there really any need for them now?
Recently I have seen a board with right angled 24 pin ATX socket. Please can this become standard
Like he said, no reason to have that in a consumer product. If you need those controllers, buy server stuff. I haven't used a PCI card in my last 3 builds.
yeah, but it's cheaper to use your old card, than to buy a new one ;) also from time to time I make linux based routers, and they need two nics, it's a lot cheaper for me, to just add some $3 ethernet pci card, than buy something with pci express oh! and don't forget those old scsii scanners, that some offices use, and they need cheap scsii pci card (or printers that need two way lpt port) there is no harm in keeping those pci slots, so they just kept it, I'm pretty sure that if they were changet to pci express slots, there would be pci guys complaining ;)
Maybe, maybe not. Intel's removing it from some of their 7x series chipsets; and if the MSI x79 boards are an accurate indication, my prediction that most mobo vendors would initially add it back with bridge chips appears to be incorrect. If that's the case it'll disappear from all mainstream boards in the next year or three, although there will almost certainly be a few vendors that sell boards with it. You can get boards as recent as LGA1156 with ISA slots from industrial system vendors. (LGA1155 +ISA is probably still in design, a year ago when I looked the most recent I could find was LGA775.) Once you get into very low volume products the price gets ugly ($400 for an otherwise low end board); but thier target customers are using them to control legacy hardware with typical prices starting in the 5 figure range and soaring rapidly from there
IDE is available as a PCI-express addon. My Local CompUSA sells a bootable IDE add-on card in PCI-e for $29. I think it also had 2 usb ports as well. Not a bad deal.
* tv tuners (especially here in Europe where HD is not that popular), * additional sata controllers * sometimes SCSI controllers for some old scanners, firewire cards * serial / parallel port controllers (not all usb to serial devices are good) * sound cards (some still think soundblaster live sounds better than integrated cards) * quality 100mbps network cards (connecting pc to a printer for example)
not really, the funny thing is that if you are interested in perfect sound, it's better to buy a board with integrated sound card and connect it with digital cable to amplifier, this way you are using amplifier as D/A Converter and you get way much better sound, than any sound card bellow $500 you can buy
It is interesting to see what people use the old legacy PCI slots for. As mentioned in my first post I still use a TV card in one but to be honest there are better PCIex1 cards for that now (do not get me started on USB TV tuners - useless is the nicest description). I havent used a PCI sound card for at least 5 or 6 years. Last time I had an external card (bundled with an ASUS motherboard) it also used a PCIex1 slot.
Now I am all for recycling old bits of kit to keep build costs down but there does come a point when it is time to wave good bye to legacy slots. Motherboards do not often come with a floppy drive port and IDE socket has basically gone the way of the dodo as well. PCI surely is the next to go. But maybe posters here have convinced me that there is at least a little bit of time left in it
The only card I have that's legacy PCI is a BIOS POST code reader that I've been unable to find a PCIe1x replacement for; but with UEFI replacing BIOS it's about to become obsolete anyway.
Sounds like you ought to keep an old legacy system for TV Tuners, SCSI, etc along side your new-fangled PC; both on the network so you can easily access the older equipment.
Second, all of those devices listed are available in PCI-e, Quality Network Cards are available from Intel in PCI-e flavor. Creative makes X-Fi in PCI-e, and LSI (and adaptec?) Made a SCSI card in PCI-e. Serial Parallel ports can also be had with PCI-e and I agree that USB emulators for RS232/IEEE1284 are garbage.
From the screenshots I can see, the BIOS/UEFI version used with the Asus board is 0902. Yet, their current version is 1502, which dates 2011/10/21, and in between 1103 (2011/10/07) and 1102 (2011/08/26). Did you flash a more current UEFI after taking the shots? Or if not, why?
They should really test the IGP at reasonable graphics levels compared to what it can do. AVideo test at 1920x1080 and all grahpics options on is silly fo rhtis. There may have been real differences at medium (playable) settings but we'd never know it from this write up.
$120 for just a motherboard? Really? Can i get a WTF? I just bought a G41 mobo, an E6600, and a HD 4850 all for a combined cost of under $100. It overclocks to 3.2GHz, which is enough to put it well past an A8-3850 in gaming. Well past... Actually with such a powerful gpu you really dont even need an overclock to beat a llano at gaming.
Granted these were used parts, but still you can buy a brand new H61 board for $40 http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3444... Combine that with a 5670 which can easily be found for under $50 and you have a $90 solution that is way faster. As if AMD needed any help killing itself... these motherboard prices are absolutely absurd.
Desktop Llano makes the most sense in HTPCs. As people are willing to pay a premium for such items, I doubt AMD is too worried. Regardless, a Llano setup will use less power, you have far more multiprocessing power, and there's better video support as well as DX11 support. Llano can also be overclocked, albeit in a limited fashion, should you choose to do so. In the end, horses for courses.
Please stop comparing prices of new and used hardware. Apples and oranges.
These $120 motherboards are top-of-the-line for the FM1 socket and have the most features of any FM1 boards on the market. If cost savings is important to you, FM1 motherboards can be had for $60 or less.
Motherboard prices are NOT set by AMD, they are set by Asus and Gigabyte based on the value-add over and above what AMD provides in the chipset.
The H61 board is not $40, it's $60 with a mail-in rebate. There's a big difference.
I think this covers all the errors and misconceptions in your post... Does anyone see any that I missed...?
Ian, just a note that the color shown for each board changes in some of the graphs. This is confusing and has me wondering if the graphs are miscolored or mislabeled...
The ASUS F1A75-V EVO is identical to the ASUS F1A75-V Pro, except the EVO adds an additional PCI-e x16 slot. If you watch prices close enough, you can pick this board up around $125. I got mine for $126 +$10 rebate a few weeks ago, final cost $116.
The Major selling points for me on this board over the Gigabyte and competing models were, that all the other boards support 32GB while ASUS supports 64GB and the extra x16 slot seals the deal for the ASUS F1A75-V EVO.
Also, the review states how many power phases are on the Gigabyte board (8+2) but didn't specify how many phases are on the ASUS.
"The Gigabyte board wins again in our USB 3.0 testing."
Since the ASUS uses two separate USB3 controllers, one on chipset, the other an ASmedia USB3 PCI-e. Peformance can vary based on which port you plug in to. If I remember correctly, the front Panel and ports near the PS2 port is the other ASmedia USB3 port. A little retesting is certainly needed here.
I've notice there are four display outputs, VGA, DVI, HDMI, and Display Port. What is the maximum number of displays you can use at one time just by using the IGP? Not doing for eyefinity, but for 3 separate monitors. Thanks
It really depends upon the device. I have an Echo Audio Mia card from several years ago, which while not having exactly every feature a newer card would have, has profoundly excellent audio quality. For the type of audio I work on (2+1 traditional stereo; mostly demo recordings, documenting gigs I'm on and so forth) this audio card is ideal and really I do not want to spend the several hundred on a newer one which will meet the standards I have for audio cards (in Los Angeles, CA as a musician I compete with people who have top quality audio gear). NONE of the onboard audio, on even the best on-board audio set ups will be as noise free and low latency as the audio I'm getting using this old card.
So, now you should understand why someone might want to use legacy PCI bus hardware devices.
The people who think "legacy" ports are bad aren't going to be convinced otherwise unless they have their own reason for using them. This topic comes up endlessly.
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DanNeely - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
"It should be noted that, according to the Gigabyte website, the DVI-D does not support D-Sub by adaptor, and that when on integrated graphics, the connector cannot be changed while the motherboard is powered up."This sort of no plug and play nonsense is a throwback to the 90s, and has no business on a modern board.
Oberst - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
This is quite misleading, as both mobos use a DVI-D. So also both do not support D-Sub via adapter, Gigabyte is just the only manufacturer that clearly stresses this issue, all others assume that you know what the difference between DVI-D and DVI-I is.Also no word is left, that the gigabyte board is capable of Dual Link DVI, while the asus only allows single link, which enables only a limited range of display resolutions. As Dual Link on Llano boards is not very common, that would surely be some important fact to mention.
I'm also not quite sure, what gigabyte means with "All integrated graphics ports do not support Hot plug. If you want to change to another graphics port when the computer is on, be sure to turn off the computer first." Maybe just a false translation, meaning you have to reboot the system, when changing the output (as the display driver doesn't switch the output automatically, you have to do that manually in the driver or by rebooting).
DanNeely - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
It's the no-hotplug part that apalled me, I should've trimmed the 1st part of the sentence away to be clearer but was in a rush for the shower by the time I finished reading the articel.Oberst - Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - link
I'm not sure if that is really that strict as this statement shows. The Gigabyte translations are often not very good and the real meaning is quite different to the written text.When you change your display from DVI to DP, you have to do a reboot as the driver won't switch automatically. That's because you could just pull out a plug by hitting the cable accidentally. So the driver holds the primary output on the plug that was used before, only a reboot initiates a rescan of the displays and switches to another one.
So maybe gigabyte wanted to express this. That would definitely be something to try out. But i can't imagine that you cannot plug in a second monitor on a running system, that would really be some strange behavior.
Googer - Sunday, November 13, 2011 - link
Use a displayport adapter If you need DUAL LINK DVI connection on the ASUS board.Etern205 - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
Yea, DVI-D doesn't support DVI to VGA adapter as there is no 4 analog pins on that DVI port. Also even if it doesn't have that 4 pin, the adapter still won't fit as the analog ground (that horizontal pin) on the adapter is a tad wider.Etern205 - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
My mistake, looks like there is a DVI-D to VGA adapter and it's not the DVI to VGA adapter I was mentioning.DVI-D to VGA adapter
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
DVI to VGA adapter
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
cjs150 - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Really like layout of Gigabyte board. Although this is more of a problem with M-ATX boards I have struggled recently with fitting both graphics card with waterblock and a air cooler over the memory (fits but is incredibly tight) so seeing the PCIEx1 slot above the PCIex16 is a good move.What are all those legacy PCI slots doing there? What do people use them for? Across 5 computers at home I use 2 - I for a really old RAID card and one for a TV tuner. Is there really any need for them now?
Recently I have seen a board with right angled 24 pin ATX socket. Please can this become standard
Golgatha - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
PCI is for your old sound card. Now if you're building new, there is no need for PCI to exist.Taft12 - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
IDE controller, RS-232 card... Me and many like me still need a PCI slot, and Asus and Gigabyte's market research shows the same.PCI will still be with us for many years to come yet.
Death666Angel - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Like he said, no reason to have that in a consumer product. If you need those controllers, buy server stuff. I haven't used a PCI card in my last 3 builds.PC13 - Saturday, November 12, 2011 - link
Just because you never needed them doesn't mean we don't. It's not your right to talk for everybody.Roland00Address - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
I understand your point but those add on cards exist in a pci express option as well.http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
knedle - Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - link
yeah, but it's cheaper to use your old card, than to buy a new one ;)also from time to time I make linux based routers, and they need two nics, it's a lot cheaper for me, to just add some $3 ethernet pci card, than buy something with pci express
oh! and don't forget those old scsii scanners, that some offices use, and they need cheap scsii pci card (or printers that need two way lpt port)
there is no harm in keeping those pci slots, so they just kept it, I'm pretty sure that if they were changet to pci express slots, there would be pci guys complaining ;)
Googer - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
An INTEL brand PCI-e NIC can be bought for less than $30 on newegg. That's cheap.DanNeely - Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - link
Maybe, maybe not. Intel's removing it from some of their 7x series chipsets; and if the MSI x79 boards are an accurate indication, my prediction that most mobo vendors would initially add it back with bridge chips appears to be incorrect. If that's the case it'll disappear from all mainstream boards in the next year or three, although there will almost certainly be a few vendors that sell boards with it. You can get boards as recent as LGA1156 with ISA slots from industrial system vendors. (LGA1155 +ISA is probably still in design, a year ago when I looked the most recent I could find was LGA775.) Once you get into very low volume products the price gets ugly ($400 for an otherwise low end board); but thier target customers are using them to control legacy hardware with typical prices starting in the 5 figure range and soaring rapidly from therehttp://www.ibt.ca/v2/items/mb950/index.html
Googer - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
IDE is available as a PCI-express addon. My Local CompUSA sells a bootable IDE add-on card in PCI-e for $29. I think it also had 2 usb ports as well. Not a bad deal.Googer - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
What do you have that would still require PCI that you can't get in PCI-express?DanNeely - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Probably a limited number of PCIe lanes on the chipset.mariush - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
People still use the pci slots for:* tv tuners (especially here in Europe where HD is not that popular),
* additional sata controllers
* sometimes SCSI controllers for some old scanners, firewire cards
* serial / parallel port controllers (not all usb to serial devices are good)
* sound cards (some still think soundblaster live sounds better than integrated cards)
* quality 100mbps network cards (connecting pc to a printer for example)
etc etc
Mitch89 - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
A proper sound card definitely sounds better than the integrated ones that come on every motherboard, no question about it.As for PCI slots, I still have a few devices in use in my machines including a few DVB-T digital tuners and a soundcard.
When building my latest Media Centre, however, I purchased a PCI-e DVB-T tuner, so the legacy slots we're something I was looking for.
knedle - Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - link
not really, the funny thing is that if you are interested in perfect sound, it's better to buy a board with integrated sound card and connect it with digital cable to amplifier, this way you are using amplifier as D/A Converter and you get way much better sound, than any sound card bellow $500 you can buycjs150 - Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - link
It is interesting to see what people use the old legacy PCI slots for. As mentioned in my first post I still use a TV card in one but to be honest there are better PCIex1 cards for that now (do not get me started on USB TV tuners - useless is the nicest description). I havent used a PCI sound card for at least 5 or 6 years. Last time I had an external card (bundled with an ASUS motherboard) it also used a PCIex1 slot.Now I am all for recycling old bits of kit to keep build costs down but there does come a point when it is time to wave good bye to legacy slots. Motherboards do not often come with a floppy drive port and IDE socket has basically gone the way of the dodo as well. PCI surely is the next to go. But maybe posters here have convinced me that there is at least a little bit of time left in it
DanNeely - Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - link
The only card I have that's legacy PCI is a BIOS POST code reader that I've been unable to find a PCIe1x replacement for; but with UEFI replacing BIOS it's about to become obsolete anyway.Googer - Sunday, November 13, 2011 - link
Sounds like you ought to keep an old legacy system for TV Tuners, SCSI, etc along side your new-fangled PC; both on the network so you can easily access the older equipment.Second, all of those devices listed are available in PCI-e, Quality Network Cards are available from Intel in PCI-e flavor. Creative makes X-Fi in PCI-e, and LSI (and adaptec?) Made a SCSI card in PCI-e. Serial Parallel ports can also be had with PCI-e and I agree that USB emulators for RS232/IEEE1284 are garbage.
Edgar_Wibeau - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
From the screenshots I can see, the BIOS/UEFI version used with the Asus board is 0902. Yet, their current version is 1502, which dates 2011/10/21, and in between 1103 (2011/10/07) and 1102 (2011/08/26). Did you flash a more current UEFI after taking the shots? Or if not, why?See
http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/AMD_Socket_FM1/F1...
jan.peralta - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
i would love to see gaming benchmarks for HD6670 with the A6, especially for the ASUS boardthanks!
Dug - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
I second that!Dug - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
I must be out of the loop.What does One 580 mean?
silverblue - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
A single 580 as opposed to two of them.androk - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
They should really test the IGP at reasonable graphics levels compared to what it can do. AVideo test at 1920x1080 and all grahpics options on is silly fo rhtis. There may have been real differences at medium (playable) settings but we'd never know it from this write up.Shadowmaster625 - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
$120 for just a motherboard? Really? Can i get a WTF? I just bought a G41 mobo, an E6600, and a HD 4850 all for a combined cost of under $100. It overclocks to 3.2GHz, which is enough to put it well past an A8-3850 in gaming. Well past... Actually with such a powerful gpu you really dont even need an overclock to beat a llano at gaming.Granted these were used parts, but still you can buy a brand new H61 board for $40 http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3444... Combine that with a 5670 which can easily be found for under $50 and you have a $90 solution that is way faster. As if AMD needed any help killing itself... these motherboard prices are absolutely absurd.
silverblue - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Desktop Llano makes the most sense in HTPCs. As people are willing to pay a premium for such items, I doubt AMD is too worried. Regardless, a Llano setup will use less power, you have far more multiprocessing power, and there's better video support as well as DX11 support. Llano can also be overclocked, albeit in a limited fashion, should you choose to do so. In the end, horses for courses.Laptop Llano is a more appealing option however.
Taft12 - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Please stop comparing prices of new and used hardware. Apples and oranges.These $120 motherboards are top-of-the-line for the FM1 socket and have the most features of any FM1 boards on the market. If cost savings is important to you, FM1 motherboards can be had for $60 or less.
Motherboard prices are NOT set by AMD, they are set by Asus and Gigabyte based on the value-add over and above what AMD provides in the chipset.
The H61 board is not $40, it's $60 with a mail-in rebate. There's a big difference.
I think this covers all the errors and misconceptions in your post... Does anyone see any that I missed...?
medi01 - Tuesday, November 8, 2011 - link
He has a point though.Motherboard prices DID go up. To an extent that you wonder if there is a cartel agreement between manufacturers.
Hard to blame AMD for it though.
swaaye - Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - link
Mobo prices haven't gone anywhere. There are consumer mobos from $80-350. Pick your poison. Pricing has been like this since 486s as far as I recall.TrackSmart - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Ian, just a note that the color shown for each board changes in some of the graphs. This is confusing and has me wondering if the graphs are miscolored or mislabeled...Thanks for the review.
HW_mee - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Does the onboard audio not deserve a mentioning?I would love to know how the ACL892 fares against the ACL889.
I know integrated audio is mediocre at best, but some past AMD boards, especially from ASUS, have featured useless cheap VIA/Realtek audio solutions.
kenyee - Monday, November 7, 2011 - link
Could you repeat this w/ their mATX boards?Googer - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
The ASUS F1A75-V EVO is identical to the ASUS F1A75-V Pro, except the EVO adds an additional PCI-e x16 slot. If you watch prices close enough, you can pick this board up around $125. I got mine for $126 +$10 rebate a few weeks ago, final cost $116.The Major selling points for me on this board over the Gigabyte and competing models were, that all the other boards support 32GB while ASUS supports 64GB and the extra x16 slot seals the deal for the ASUS F1A75-V EVO.
Also, the review states how many power phases are on the Gigabyte board (8+2) but didn't specify how many phases are on the ASUS.
Taft12 - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
An F1 socket board with 3 PCI-E x16 slots? Consider my face palmed.Googer - Sunday, November 13, 2011 - link
ASUS and ASROCK have FM1 boards with 3 PCI-e x16 slots. There maybe another, but I'm not aware.Googer - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
"The Gigabyte board wins again in our USB 3.0 testing."Since the ASUS uses two separate USB3 controllers, one on chipset, the other an ASmedia USB3 PCI-e. Peformance can vary based on which port you plug in to. If I remember correctly, the front Panel and ports near the PS2 port is the other ASmedia USB3 port. A little retesting is certainly needed here.
Etern205 - Wednesday, November 9, 2011 - link
I've notice there are four display outputs, VGA, DVI, HDMI, and Display Port. What is the maximum number of displays you can use at one time just by using the IGP?Not doing for eyefinity, but for 3 separate monitors.
Thanks
Googer - Sunday, November 13, 2011 - link
I haven't tested it but on my ASUS, I think the limit is 2 with out discreet graphics. However, I could be wrong on this.crtune - Sunday, November 13, 2011 - link
It really depends upon the device. I have an Echo Audio Mia card from several years ago, which while not having exactly every feature a newer card would have, has profoundly excellent audio quality. For the type of audio I work on (2+1 traditional stereo; mostly demo recordings, documenting gigs I'm on and so forth) this audio card is ideal and really I do not want to spend the several hundred on a newer one which will meet the standards I have for audio cards (in Los Angeles, CA as a musician I compete with people who have top quality audio gear). NONE of the onboard audio, on even the best on-board audio set ups will be as noise free and low latency as the audio I'm getting using this old card.So, now you should understand why someone might want to use legacy PCI bus hardware devices.
swaaye - Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - link
The people who think "legacy" ports are bad aren't going to be convinced otherwise unless they have their own reason for using them. This topic comes up endlessly.