Yeah thats's weird. It was odd looking at the workers in the factory IN FINLAND packing the phones and at the same time hearing the they won't even be released here in Finland until some time next year! WTF Nokia, you are (supposed to be) a Finnish company, why don't you even give us, the Finns, your phones first?
If you look at Samsung for example, they have some phones that are specifically for the domestic market ONLY. Compared to that, Nokia looks like it is trying to forget its roots and get rid of the last supporters of it in its home market.
Also, why ditch MeeGo? The N9 is an amazing phone, and it's selling very well considering that the OS was announced dead even before the phone was released. Relying only on one OS at times like these is amazingly risky business. Especially relying on WP7, that has failed to attract any meaningful market share in its first year of existence.
I'm a Finn and I am not buying Nokia until they have something better to offer me. Oh and also, release your stuff in Finland at least at the same time as you release to the other first markets.
Nokia is not a Finnish company. Just like AMD is not an American company or Nestle is not a Swiss company. Nothing crosses national boarders as easily and quickly as money and corporate interests. For Nokia, Finland is a market like any other.
No multinational company harbors anything resembling patriotism... unless they are looking for a bailout.
At least here in Finland, Nokia and the upcoming WP7 phones have got a lot traction. N9 is sold out everywhere and the news haven't talked about anything else but Nokia for the last few days.
Not that it really matters though, we only have 5.5 million people in here. It's just surprising that there was no mention of Scandinavia at all, yet Elop thanked the Finnish people at the end (according to a Finnish news site).
I see what you mean though, the markets are small enough that they wouldn't require massive amounts of devices and the nordic countries are generally quick to adopt technology so there'd be a lot of goodwill generated by assuring availability back home - so to speak.
Frankly if I had the money to spare I'd get an N9 just to play around with, love Nokia devices in general but I confess I'm not terribly impressed with WP7.
To keep it mildly on topic I'd have to say that if I /were/ getting a WP7 device it'd definitely be the Lumia 800. A black one, I'm kinda traditional like that. :)
The N9 does quite well here in Sweden too, it even has TV-ads from the networks, does earn a prominent spot in brochures from the electronic outlets, independent phone outlets and I'm pretty sure earns prominent spots in the stores as it's one of the first with a new UX from Nokia that you can actually see has changed in an impressive packed device. That said it's not outplacing Android, but it has earned some remarks by the press. Like "Nokias best device yet" or along those lines. Even that it won't have any follow ups are criticized because most like the device to some extent and receives say much better press then any WP7 device have had here.
MeeGo has even received a official Spotify-client now despite that the system won't be around, something Windows Phone hasn't managed yet, probably because there is no support for native apps, thus complicating the development. So even looking at apps it's hard to dismiss MeeGo and praise Windows Phone. It's simply hard to find anyone supporting Windows Phone besides trolls praising how the UI and the system which has delayed all the ordinary applications feels, I can wonder how it matters that a system that doesn't even have proper SDKs for the developers feels quick and fresh. The pace is just so slow in a few vital parts. Office integration might be mentioned by press, but it's not that impressive and overall integration with MS environment is lacking still. It's a fairly good OS, but by no means superior. If you want integration pretty much every platform out there can serve you better. It's not an argument when you need other platforms if you need security policies, encryption and so on.
They have a pleasing design. Its nice to see something a little less boring than usual. I like the strong bold colours. Decent enough specs too. Pity they wont be able to make an android version.
These are the standard specs for WP7 right now. I'm guessing next year you'll see the standard platform updated to Qualcomm's Krait SoC (and a bump to qHD maybe).
Yes, S3 will be skipped. The next windows phone OS will run on S4 although it will not be qHD. I do not know what resolution to expect for chassis 3, but the display will have an aspect ratio of 1.666.
Considering that with these specs the phone runs phenomenally, smooth as butter and quick response in everything, I don't think it really needs any better hardware except maybe a higher resolution display if people care about it.
What do you call smooth? Or quick? I've never played with a WP7 device but I watched the Lumina 800 hands-on video on gsmarena.com and I dare to say this looks like a typical Microsoft OS - slow underneath, but craftfully disguised on UI level.
Animations ARE smooth, but each transition takes way too much time putting the wait time at an unacceptable level for a modern OS. This is great to wow people, but start using it on a everyday basis and you'll feel like throwing the phone against the wall in null time.
Yes, Android is a bit choppy at times but overall I would name it the speed champ, even on the 1GHz single core I have in my Galaxy S vs. the Nokia's 1.4GHz. iPhone is somewhere in between.
WP7 is hands down the best OS Microsoft has ever made. It really is fast. WP7 runs on an extremely limited set of hardware (even compared to iOS), but this has allowed MS to optimized the hell out of WP7 and take full advantage of absolutely everything that hardware platform has to offer.
Yes, the transitional animations are unnecessary and time wasting eye candy, but they aren't hiding a slow OS.
If you are interested in the academic endeavor of calculating PI to a million digits, then the OS is almost irrelevant and the device with the faster CPU will win (in most cases the android phone). However, if you are more interested in a consistently fast & smooth UI, then WP7 is at least as capable as the best android phones out there. On comparable hardware, WP7 will always leave android coughing in the dust. Note that Google isn't at fault here. The culprits are mainly OEM's that are required to develop their own hardware drivers to get android running on their new phone models. This is an area where OEM's always skimp, and more often than not the faster hardware does nothing more than compensate for the OEM's shoddy programming.
Calculating PI...yes, very useful :-) What I'm interested in is whether heavy apps (Nav software and games come to mind first) will run faster and more efficiently on WP7.
As far as the UI speed goes, for me it's the faster the better, not the smoother the better. And as I said, Android is the undisputed champ here.
But I agree 100% with you about the OEM's shoddy programming. My Galaxy S was irritating to say the least until I installed a custom ROM. THEN I realized how fast Android really is.
> And as I said, Android is the undisputed champ here.
I'm not sure if I want to agree or disagree with you. I have a Galaxy S plus but don't want to take the custom ROM route. I just don't agree with the concept that I need to void my warranty to get my device to work satisfactorily. :-(
The "heavy" apps you mention usually use OpenGL or DirectX which makes them somewhat less dependent on the OS than your average app. In most cases, raw hardware power will win the day again... similar too, but not quite as extreme as calculating PI. However, this ignores one important issue:
The WP7 developer has a precisely defined hardware spec to program against. Every WP7 app will be targeted to run well on that platform, it will be optimized for that hardware and make use of everything it has to offer.
An Android game may be CPU bound on one device but GPU bound on another. How much the GPU runs ahead of the CPU (and vice versa) can change drastically from one device to another. This is just one of MANY such issues android developers need to deal with. In such an environment hardware optimization is not economically feasible. Also, in the interest of being able to run on as many devices as possible, android developers will often opt to program against the lowest common denominator, i.e. overlook functionality that only high-end phone users could benefit from.
Consequentially, even with 300'000 android apps, no software exists that really makes any one of today's high-end Android handsets shine. On the other hand, WP7 isn't living up to it's potential either because the WP7 market is too small to support exclusive development of big AAA titles.
To answer the question... from my perspective it is currently a draw. However, WP7 has the much higher potential, but it needs a larger chunk of the market to be fully realized.
Sure it can. I placed a comment on DailyTech's article on this, and I think it's a decent point. The "antiquated hardware" isn't a problem if this phone isn't aimed at a high-end. If this phone is priced adequately, it could serve itself as a low-cost alternative to Android and iOS that runs extremely well.
Don't get hung up on specs. A windows phone will feel much faster than an android with twice the specs. Even faster than an iphone. I didn't believe it either until I played with one in the store. Then sold my atrix and picked up a samsung focus. My wife has an iphone 4 so I can compare against that too. This windows phone is damn fast.
I dont think he's talking about benchmarks. And benchmarks dont show everything, infact for many things they're totally useless.
He likely means in general everyday use. Like going through the OS menu's and using the built in apps, or the UI animations, they're all super smooth, responsive and fast. This makes it feel much quicker than a Android phone with better specs. I'm not bias either, i have a SGSII Android phone, but even the best Android phone around isn't as good as ANY WP7 phone when comparing responsiveness or smoothness.
But in all fairness android has no GPU acceleration in the UI (or at least my understanding). This has been rectified with ice cream sandwich so smoothness should increase greatly.
That said I am using a iphone at the moment but will consider switching to this if it ever makes it to south africa, otherwise android here I come.
Personally I actually quite like this design. It looks like a great size and looks visually quite appealing.
I know a lot of people are getting obsessed with specifications and large high resolution screens however I fail to see the practical advantages for everyday life. For me something that is convenient and easy to use is going to get my vote. I use my phones as tools and I want something that is sturdy and easy to fit within my pocket.
I have computers everywhere that I go and for productivity a notebook is a must due to the keyboard input. I find even the larger phones not quite large enough to simply sit back and enjoy surfing the web. Tablets are much better for this.
Reading on phones I find just not enjoyable and therefore at least a tablet or ebook reader is necessary for a great experience.
I have certainly used my phones for music content, however never been a fan of watching movies/TV on them. Once again much better on a tablet.
I have played the odd game on my phones but not concerned enough to want a huge to carry around for.
No idea how this phone is going to turn out however I have found in the past the Microsoft by far offered the best Exchange Server and Office integration and the interface also looks quite intuitive. Looking forward to checking them out when they hit Australia.
Just out of pure interest; I am wondering what actually features or experiences are driving peoples desire for larger (>4") high definition phones?
Well I have been using iphones for about 3 years and my desire for a bigger screen is purely for typing I find the 3.5" on the iphone tiny these days as a lot of my friends are carrying 4.3" androids, after typing on a screen like that it makes the iphone screen feel tiny. I don't really care about the HD resolution have seen androids with WVGA 800*480 and the screen seems sharp enough to me.
That said I am a big guy so different strokes for different folks.
Typing is definitely much easier on a larger screen. qHD makes web browsing a little better too.
The size difference isn't too noticeable unless you have really tiny pockets on your pants (I have big pockets because I'm fat...), and it makes things better.
So, maybe these will sell because they are pretty. It's interesting to see that the supposedly more efficient (it's a myth) AMOLED model has a bigger battery. The extra Flash can't be the main reason.
AMOLED is more efficient for dark backgrounds (which are really common in WP7) and the screen is thinner than an LCD, allowing for a bigger battery. There are probably other design differences that make the battery compartment larger as well.
Seeing how everyone here rips on pentile displays and noone likes non expandable memory, why would the 710 be sold as a lesser phone when in my eyes at least it is superior?
what about the display resolution? is it 480 x 854 pixels? or 480x800?
the N9 also has anti-glare polarizer on the display and a NFC antenna, will these phones have these too?
and what about USB on-the-go? N8 could connect to a usb-keyboard and HDMI display, making it a "pc-in-a-pocket" to browse the web. are N800 ans N710 capable of doing usb-OTG and hdmi output?
"Just seven months after announcing its intention to move to Windows Phone, Nokia (missing word(S)) its first WP based devices: the Lumia 800 and 710."
Brian, comparing the ".co.uk" and ".com" sites of Nokia, it looks like Lumia 800 will NOT be launched on the USA right now. all they will get is the 710.
What I find interesting is how underwhelming these specs are --- if one obsesses about specs...
They seem, basically, out the Apple playbook. Small screen, limited DRAM, faster CPU than iPhone4S --- but a single core. And less ambitious wireless --- no BT4, no LTE, and no mention of diversity for GSM systems.
Those who make a habit of routinely criticizing the "stupidity" and "technical backwardness" of iPhones might want to ponder this. When Apple, Nokia and MS all agree, perhaps there is actually something to what they all agree upon, hmm?
There will be an additional nokia phone with a larger screen, the N800 is only one option out of a lineup. The scarcity of the hardware is limited BY the OS(WP Apollo will be tailored for dual cores), plus Nokia always had lower than average specs, it is not like they are following in Apple's footsteps, more like the other way around - Nokia was always conservative regarding specs and optimized for stability and power efficiency.
Are you really beating on the BT; is BT suddenly a feature now, same BT that you cannot transfer anything between iphone devices? The iphone is not LTE, nor is the network on which it operates, nor are most carriers around the world(except the Japanese which are in a whole league of their own).
The current Iphone is pretty formidable spec wise, simply because it is NEW. The "technical backwardness" that you mean is still true to Apple across the board. Apple never went for bleeding edge hardware. Apple has precisely scheduled refresh cycles and because they have a tight control on the driver software cannot afford to change SKU's just for bragging rights. Hardware wise Apple is always "good enough" and that is not a bad thing.
Some specs are important. I grant you that WP7 does not need dual core so we'll ignore this one for a moment.
The things that are important:
1. Storage - I have 8 GB right now and that barely makes it. My next phone will have at least 16 onboard (if expandable like Android) or 32 GB (maybe 64 GB) if I go to iPhone. Relying on the cloud for my data (be it movies, music, apps, etc) is not good enough with capped data and unreliable, slow 3G service (I'm on Verizon and love their service so don't tell me to switch to another carrier). I don't expect LTE for at least 18 mos. (maybe 2 years). If this is supposed to be a high end device (competing against iPhone 4S, Galaxy SII/Nexus, and Moto RAZR) 16 GB, NON EXPANDABLE, storage is not going to hack it.
2. The announcement is great - when can someone in the US actually get one of these - by time they're released Android will be sporting ICS (which by the way is starting to look like a nice OS based on using Mathias Duarte's experience with WebOS is actually very nice), 32-64 GB on board storage expandable to more, and possibly new battery tech for longer life.
3. What about FFC and 4G LTE (Verizon is expanding gangbusters, ATT is starting to roll out and even Sprint is announcing LTE). Total lack of future proofing.
4. Just like any OS RAM always matters and more is always better. While Apple can get away with 512Mbyte with its optimized OS I'm not counting on Microsoft needing only 512 MByte (look at their history with Desktop OS's). Once again more ram (which is always non-expandable) will help with future proofing this device.
Would really love to buy into the WP7 experience (I have been all Microsoft since 1983) but just don't see it. Especially since by time I see it on Verizon it will already be yesterday's hardware - the Trophy is now the only WP7 phone on Verizon and it's 18 month old hardware - not worth tying myself up for two years with it.
Just responding to your comment about not enough RAM- from what I read, WP7 is nothing like Windows, and in fact should run very well with not much RAM. It doesn't have proper multitasking, which is the only reason you need more RAM on a phone. And I wouldn't say that MSs control over hardware is any less tight than Apple's. They have obviously learned some lessons and are keeping the hardware super under control. So if the iP4 is ok with 512mb of RAM, there is no reason a WP7 wouldn't be.
I like the looks of this phone, my only problem is screen size. After owning a SGS II, I can't see myself downgrading the screen size. Even for the missus, which has a SGS, it would be tough to convince to get a phone under 4" - and why should I?
RAM: All WP7 apps are limited in the amount of RAM they can request from the OS and the OS can reclaim a lot of RAM from apps that aren't running in the foreground. Consequentially, even if you put 2 GB of RAM in a WP7 phone you wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever (except a higher purchasing price).
Storage: Agreed. A phone with 16GB of storage should have a mSD slot. No idea why Nokia skipped this.
FFC: I can't help but suspect that whatever comes to the U.S. will have one. Europeans seam to care nothing for FFC's.
4G LTE: Currently no SoC manufacturer integrates LTE so handset manufacturers must add extra circuitry that turns any such device into a battery sucking monster. Nokia figured better battery life is more important. This will change with chassis 3 sometime in 2012.
I am very curious about the SD-card issue. That facility is not available generally in WP7 phones currently. Why on earth have Nokia included this in the (relatively) budget 710 but not in the (relatively) higher end 800? It does not, on the face of it, appear to make any sense. Any ideas? Given that I might be interested in a Nokia as a replacement for my current reserve mob (and because I am interested in having some extended hands on with WP7) I am inclined to look at the 710 because of the storage issue - even though I could afford the 800 the lack of extra storage is a deal breaker as far as I am concerned.
Yes, I have literally just been looking at the site myself (https://www.nokia.co.uk/gb-en/products/phone/lumia... and they say explicitly "no slot for micro-SD cards". Well bang goes that possible purchase then! Unless the Nokia offer an option with their phones with significantly more memory on board they can just forget it as far as I am concerned.
i hope nokia will offer a LOT more options soon.... they had the most complete lineup of models with symbian. it makes no sense to have only a few options with windows.
As I am sure you have seen further down the thread Brian, both Marc 1000 and I have seen that the Nokia site (https://www.nokia.co.uk/gb-en/products/phone/lumia... explicitly states that the 710 does *not* have a micro-SD slot. What is the source of the confusion here please?
If those pics are correct it seems we finally have proper offline maps! First thing I been excited about in years. Of course we would certainly want loads on on-board or expandable storage to take advantage of that, but its still a nice feature, something lacking from most other manufacturers.
As for the above comments: It seems like WP7 has its strongest presence in the U.S. right now, so it really would have made more sense to start distributing here first. Europe may start enjoying WP7 now but its not a sure market. Also this is the first product I've been genuinely excited for in years, and I really just want it right now.
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Kristian Vättö - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Where's Finland? Shouldn't it be motherland first?Mr Alpha - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
I was just about to ask the same question.oldsoccer - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Not anymore after it got taken over by Microsoft, which is sad enough to see.Kepe - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Yeah thats's weird. It was odd looking at the workers in the factory IN FINLAND packing the phones and at the same time hearing the they won't even be released here in Finland until some time next year! WTF Nokia, you are (supposed to be) a Finnish company, why don't you even give us, the Finns, your phones first?If you look at Samsung for example, they have some phones that are specifically for the domestic market ONLY. Compared to that, Nokia looks like it is trying to forget its roots and get rid of the last supporters of it in its home market.
Also, why ditch MeeGo? The N9 is an amazing phone, and it's selling very well considering that the OS was announced dead even before the phone was released. Relying only on one OS at times like these is amazingly risky business. Especially relying on WP7, that has failed to attract any meaningful market share in its first year of existence.
I'm a Finn and I am not buying Nokia until they have something better to offer me. Oh and also, release your stuff in Finland at least at the same time as you release to the other first markets.
a5cent - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Nokia is not a Finnish company. Just like AMD is not an American company or Nestle is not a Swiss company. Nothing crosses national boarders as easily and quickly as money and corporate interests. For Nokia, Finland is a market like any other.No multinational company harbors anything resembling patriotism... unless they are looking for a bailout.
daleksnare - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
But Microsoft is in the US, and we aren't getting it either.Exodite - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
I doubt it, WP7 isn't really gaining any traction in the nordic countries. Even less so than the rest of the world really.In fact there was a new Nokia ad at my local bus stop today... for the N9. :)
(Northern Sweden here, should be similar demography to Finland I wager.)
Kristian Vättö - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
At least here in Finland, Nokia and the upcoming WP7 phones have got a lot traction. N9 is sold out everywhere and the news haven't talked about anything else but Nokia for the last few days.Not that it really matters though, we only have 5.5 million people in here. It's just surprising that there was no mention of Scandinavia at all, yet Elop thanked the Finnish people at the end (according to a Finnish news site).
Exodite - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Sweden isn't much larger, at 9.5 million.I see what you mean though, the markets are small enough that they wouldn't require massive amounts of devices and the nordic countries are generally quick to adopt technology so there'd be a lot of goodwill generated by assuring availability back home - so to speak.
Frankly if I had the money to spare I'd get an N9 just to play around with, love Nokia devices in general but I confess I'm not terribly impressed with WP7.
To keep it mildly on topic I'd have to say that if I /were/ getting a WP7 device it'd definitely be the Lumia 800. A black one, I'm kinda traditional like that. :)
Booster - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
"N9 is sold out everywhere"Are you serious? ;)
AFAIK this phone wasn't meant to sell and Elop did everything he could to achieve that.
Kristian Vättö - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Apparently he (Elop) failed, which isn't a surprise to be honest ;-)webby7 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Any chance of a review of the N9 turning up here?Penti - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
The N9 does quite well here in Sweden too, it even has TV-ads from the networks, does earn a prominent spot in brochures from the electronic outlets, independent phone outlets and I'm pretty sure earns prominent spots in the stores as it's one of the first with a new UX from Nokia that you can actually see has changed in an impressive packed device. That said it's not outplacing Android, but it has earned some remarks by the press. Like "Nokias best device yet" or along those lines. Even that it won't have any follow ups are criticized because most like the device to some extent and receives say much better press then any WP7 device have had here.MeeGo has even received a official Spotify-client now despite that the system won't be around, something Windows Phone hasn't managed yet, probably because there is no support for native apps, thus complicating the development. So even looking at apps it's hard to dismiss MeeGo and praise Windows Phone. It's simply hard to find anyone supporting Windows Phone besides trolls praising how the UI and the system which has delayed all the ordinary applications feels, I can wonder how it matters that a system that doesn't even have proper SDKs for the developers feels quick and fresh. The pace is just so slow in a few vital parts. Office integration might be mentioned by press, but it's not that impressive and overall integration with MS environment is lacking still. It's a fairly good OS, but by no means superior. If you want integration pretty much every platform out there can serve you better. It's not an argument when you need other platforms if you need security policies, encryption and so on.
ahadsarkar - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Check out the Comparison Nokia Lumia 800 Vs Samsung Galaxy S II Vs iPhone 4s Vs Droid Razrhttp://ihackuall.blogspot.com/2011/10/nokia-lumia-...
chris1317 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
They have a pleasing design. Its nice to see something a little less boring than usual. I like the strong bold colours. Decent enough specs too. Pity they wont be able to make an android version.zorxd - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Not good specs at all. WP7 won't make a come back with phones like this.A5 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
These are the standard specs for WP7 right now. I'm guessing next year you'll see the standard platform updated to Qualcomm's Krait SoC (and a bump to qHD maybe).zorxd - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
You forgot the Snapgradon S3 platform (dual core Scorpion with Adreno 220). You think they will skip it?a5cent - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Yes, S3 will be skipped. The next windows phone OS will run on S4 although it will not be qHD. I do not know what resolution to expect for chassis 3, but the display will have an aspect ratio of 1.666.A5 - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
Agreed. If they were going to use S3, it would've happened with the Mango launch.inighthawki - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Considering that with these specs the phone runs phenomenally, smooth as butter and quick response in everything, I don't think it really needs any better hardware except maybe a higher resolution display if people care about it.gvaley - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
What do you call smooth? Or quick? I've never played with a WP7 device but I watched the Lumina 800 hands-on video on gsmarena.com and I dare to say this looks like a typical Microsoft OS - slow underneath, but craftfully disguised on UI level.Animations ARE smooth, but each transition takes way too much time putting the wait time at an unacceptable level for a modern OS. This is great to wow people, but start using it on a everyday basis and you'll feel like throwing the phone against the wall in null time.
Yes, Android is a bit choppy at times but overall I would name it the speed champ, even on the 1GHz single core I have in my Galaxy S vs. the Nokia's 1.4GHz. iPhone is somewhere in between.
a5cent - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
WP7 is hands down the best OS Microsoft has ever made. It really is fast. WP7 runs on an extremely limited set of hardware (even compared to iOS), but this has allowed MS to optimized the hell out of WP7 and take full advantage of absolutely everything that hardware platform has to offer.Yes, the transitional animations are unnecessary and time wasting eye candy, but they aren't hiding a slow OS.
If you are interested in the academic endeavor of calculating PI to a million digits, then the OS is almost irrelevant and the device with the faster CPU will win (in most cases the android phone). However, if you are more interested in a consistently fast & smooth UI, then WP7 is at least as capable as the best android phones out there. On comparable hardware, WP7 will always leave android coughing in the dust. Note that Google isn't at fault here. The culprits are mainly OEM's that are required to develop their own hardware drivers to get android running on their new phone models. This is an area where OEM's always skimp, and more often than not the faster hardware does nothing more than compensate for the OEM's shoddy programming.
gvaley - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
Calculating PI...yes, very useful :-) What I'm interested in is whether heavy apps (Nav software and games come to mind first) will run faster and more efficiently on WP7.As far as the UI speed goes, for me it's the faster the better, not the smoother the better. And as I said, Android is the undisputed champ here.
But I agree 100% with you about the OEM's shoddy programming. My Galaxy S was irritating to say the least until I installed a custom ROM. THEN I realized how fast Android really is.
a5cent - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
> And as I said, Android is the undisputed champ here.I'm not sure if I want to agree or disagree with you. I have a Galaxy S plus but don't want to take the custom ROM route. I just don't agree with the concept that I need to void my warranty to get my device to work satisfactorily. :-(
The "heavy" apps you mention usually use OpenGL or DirectX which makes them somewhat less dependent on the OS than your average app. In most cases, raw hardware power will win the day again... similar too, but not quite as extreme as calculating PI. However, this ignores one important issue:
The WP7 developer has a precisely defined hardware spec to program against. Every WP7 app will be targeted to run well on that platform, it will be optimized for that hardware and make use of everything it has to offer.
An Android game may be CPU bound on one device but GPU bound on another. How much the GPU runs ahead of the CPU (and vice versa) can change drastically from one device to another. This is just one of MANY such issues android developers need to deal with. In such an environment hardware optimization is not economically feasible. Also, in the interest of being able to run on as many devices as possible, android developers will often opt to program against the lowest common denominator, i.e. overlook functionality that only high-end phone users could benefit from.
Consequentially, even with 300'000 android apps, no software exists that really makes any one of today's high-end Android handsets shine. On the other hand, WP7 isn't living up to it's potential either because the WP7 market is too small to support exclusive development of big AAA titles.
To answer the question... from my perspective it is currently a draw. However, WP7 has the much higher potential, but it needs a larger chunk of the market to be fully realized.
Aikouka - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Sure it can. I placed a comment on DailyTech's article on this, and I think it's a decent point. The "antiquated hardware" isn't a problem if this phone isn't aimed at a high-end. If this phone is priced adequately, it could serve itself as a low-cost alternative to Android and iOS that runs extremely well.zorxd - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
yeah the problem is that from what I heard this won't be a low-cost phone.archer75 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Don't get hung up on specs. A windows phone will feel much faster than an android with twice the specs. Even faster than an iphone.I didn't believe it either until I played with one in the store. Then sold my atrix and picked up a samsung focus. My wife has an iphone 4 so I can compare against that too. This windows phone is damn fast.
zorxd - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
well I will be waiting on benchmark to confirm this but I am a bit scepticalB3an - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
I dont think he's talking about benchmarks. And benchmarks dont show everything, infact for many things they're totally useless.He likely means in general everyday use. Like going through the OS menu's and using the built in apps, or the UI animations, they're all super smooth, responsive and fast. This makes it feel much quicker than a Android phone with better specs.
I'm not bias either, i have a SGSII Android phone, but even the best Android phone around isn't as good as ANY WP7 phone when comparing responsiveness or smoothness.
matty123 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
But in all fairness android has no GPU acceleration in the UI (or at least my understanding). This has been rectified with ice cream sandwich so smoothness should increase greatly.That said I am using a iphone at the moment but will consider switching to this if it ever makes it to south africa, otherwise android here I come.
tayb - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
There are no benchmarks. Its just how the OS feels when you use it. Android just feels sluggish. Windows phone is buttery smooth. All there is to it.Sent from my Droid X
CallumS - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Personally I actually quite like this design. It looks like a great size and looks visually quite appealing.I know a lot of people are getting obsessed with specifications and large high resolution screens however I fail to see the practical advantages for everyday life. For me something that is convenient and easy to use is going to get my vote. I use my phones as tools and I want something that is sturdy and easy to fit within my pocket.
I have computers everywhere that I go and for productivity a notebook is a must due to the keyboard input. I find even the larger phones not quite large enough to simply sit back and enjoy surfing the web. Tablets are much better for this.
Reading on phones I find just not enjoyable and therefore at least a tablet or ebook reader is necessary for a great experience.
I have certainly used my phones for music content, however never been a fan of watching movies/TV on them. Once again much better on a tablet.
I have played the odd game on my phones but not concerned enough to want a huge to carry around for.
No idea how this phone is going to turn out however I have found in the past the Microsoft by far offered the best Exchange Server and Office integration and the interface also looks quite intuitive. Looking forward to checking them out when they hit Australia.
Just out of pure interest; I am wondering what actually features or experiences are driving peoples desire for larger (>4") high definition phones?
Thank you.
Callum
matty123 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Well I have been using iphones for about 3 years and my desire for a bigger screen is purely for typing I find the 3.5" on the iphone tiny these days as a lot of my friends are carrying 4.3" androids, after typing on a screen like that it makes the iphone screen feel tiny. I don't really care about the HD resolution have seen androids with WVGA 800*480 and the screen seems sharp enough to me.That said I am a big guy so different strokes for different folks.
A5 - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
Typing is definitely much easier on a larger screen. qHD makes web browsing a little better too.The size difference isn't too noticeable unless you have really tiny pockets on your pants (I have big pockets because I'm fat...), and it makes things better.
melgross - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
So, maybe these will sell because they are pretty. It's interesting to see that the supposedly more efficient (it's a myth) AMOLED model has a bigger battery. The extra Flash can't be the main reason.A5 - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
AMOLED is more efficient for dark backgrounds (which are really common in WP7) and the screen is thinner than an LCD, allowing for a bigger battery. There are probably other design differences that make the battery compartment larger as well.Pessimism - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Seeing how everyone here rips on pentile displays and noone likes non expandable memory, why would the 710 be sold as a lesser phone when in my eyes at least it is superior?marc1000 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
what about the display resolution? is it 480 x 854 pixels? or 480x800?the N9 also has anti-glare polarizer on the display and a NFC antenna, will these phones have these too?
and what about USB on-the-go? N8 could connect to a usb-keyboard and HDMI display, making it a "pc-in-a-pocket" to browse the web. are N800 ans N710 capable of doing usb-OTG and hdmi output?
oldsoccer - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Who like the design, take a look @ this.http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/10/26/nokia-n9...
softdrinkviking - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
is missing a word?"Just seven months after announcing its intention to move to Windows Phone, Nokia (missing word(S)) its first WP based devices: the Lumia 800 and 710."
Brian Klug - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Fixed!-Brian
marc1000 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Brian, comparing the ".co.uk" and ".com" sites of Nokia, it looks like Lumia 800 will NOT be launched on the USA right now. all they will get is the 710.XiZeL - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
seriously PenTile?Exodite - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Considering the UI/UX of WP7 that's going to be even less noticeable than in devices running Android.A fringe number of geeks will complain but it won't affect sales.
name99 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
What I find interesting is how underwhelming these specs are --- if one obsesses about specs...They seem, basically, out the Apple playbook. Small screen, limited DRAM, faster CPU than iPhone4S --- but a single core. And less ambitious wireless --- no BT4, no LTE, and no mention of diversity for GSM systems.
Those who make a habit of routinely criticizing the "stupidity" and "technical backwardness" of iPhones might want to ponder this. When Apple, Nokia and MS all agree, perhaps there is actually something to what they all agree upon, hmm?
ananduser - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
There will be an additional nokia phone with a larger screen, the N800 is only one option out of a lineup. The scarcity of the hardware is limited BY the OS(WP Apollo will be tailored for dual cores), plus Nokia always had lower than average specs, it is not like they are following in Apple's footsteps, more like the other way around - Nokia was always conservative regarding specs and optimized for stability and power efficiency.Are you really beating on the BT; is BT suddenly a feature now, same BT that you cannot transfer anything between iphone devices?
The iphone is not LTE, nor is the network on which it operates, nor are most carriers around the world(except the Japanese which are in a whole league of their own).
The current Iphone is pretty formidable spec wise, simply because it is NEW. The "technical backwardness" that you mean is still true to Apple across the board. Apple never went for bleeding edge hardware. Apple has precisely scheduled refresh cycles and because they have a tight control on the driver software cannot afford to change SKU's just for bragging rights. Hardware wise Apple is always "good enough" and that is not a bad thing.
trivor - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Some specs are important. I grant you that WP7 does not need dual core so we'll ignore this one for a moment.The things that are important:
1. Storage - I have 8 GB right now and that barely makes it. My next phone will have at least 16 onboard (if expandable like Android) or 32 GB (maybe 64 GB) if I go to iPhone. Relying on the cloud for my data (be it movies, music, apps, etc) is not good enough with capped data and unreliable, slow 3G service (I'm on Verizon and love their service so don't tell me to switch to another carrier). I don't expect LTE for at least 18 mos. (maybe 2 years). If this is supposed to be a high end device (competing against iPhone 4S, Galaxy SII/Nexus, and Moto RAZR) 16 GB, NON EXPANDABLE, storage is not going to hack it.
2. The announcement is great - when can someone in the US actually get one of these - by time they're released Android will be sporting ICS (which by the way is starting to look like a nice OS based on using Mathias Duarte's experience with WebOS is actually very nice), 32-64 GB on board storage expandable to more, and possibly new battery tech for longer life.
3. What about FFC and 4G LTE (Verizon is expanding gangbusters, ATT is starting to roll out and even Sprint is announcing LTE). Total lack of future proofing.
4. Just like any OS RAM always matters and more is always better. While Apple can get away with 512Mbyte with its optimized OS I'm not counting on Microsoft needing only 512 MByte (look at their history with Desktop OS's). Once again more ram (which is always non-expandable) will help with future proofing this device.
Would really love to buy into the WP7 experience (I have been all Microsoft since 1983) but just don't see it. Especially since by time I see it on Verizon it will already be yesterday's hardware - the Trophy is now the only WP7 phone on Verizon and it's 18 month old hardware - not worth tying myself up for two years with it.
AncientWisdom - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Just responding to your comment about not enough RAM-from what I read, WP7 is nothing like Windows, and in fact should run very well with not much RAM. It doesn't have proper multitasking, which is the only reason you need more RAM on a phone.
And I wouldn't say that MSs control over hardware is any less tight than Apple's. They have obviously learned some lessons and are keeping the hardware super under control. So if the iP4 is ok with 512mb of RAM, there is no reason a WP7 wouldn't be.
I like the looks of this phone, my only problem is screen size. After owning a SGS II, I can't see myself downgrading the screen size. Even for the missus, which has a SGS, it would be tough to convince to get a phone under 4" - and why should I?
a5cent - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
RAM:All WP7 apps are limited in the amount of RAM they can request from the OS and the OS can reclaim a lot of RAM from apps that aren't running in the foreground. Consequentially, even if you put 2 GB of RAM in a WP7 phone you wouldn't notice any difference whatsoever (except a higher purchasing price).
Storage:
Agreed. A phone with 16GB of storage should have a mSD slot. No idea why Nokia skipped this.
FFC:
I can't help but suspect that whatever comes to the U.S. will have one. Europeans seam to care nothing for FFC's.
4G LTE:
Currently no SoC manufacturer integrates LTE so handset manufacturers must add extra circuitry that turns any such device into a battery sucking monster. Nokia figured better battery life is more important. This will change with chassis 3 sometime in 2012.
FrederickL - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
.@Brian Klug
I am very curious about the SD-card issue. That facility is not available generally in WP7 phones currently. Why on earth have Nokia included this in the (relatively) budget 710 but not in the (relatively) higher end 800? It does not, on the face of it, appear to make any sense. Any ideas? Given that I might be interested in a Nokia as a replacement for my current reserve mob (and because I am interested in having some extended hands on with WP7) I am inclined to look at the 710 because of the storage issue - even though I could afford the 800 the lack of extra storage is a deal breaker as far as I am concerned.
Best wishes
Fred
marc1000 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
after looking at the nokia official site, i found that both the 800 and 710 WILL NOT any have sd slot.FrederickL - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
@marc 1000
Yes, I have literally just been looking at the site myself (https://www.nokia.co.uk/gb-en/products/phone/lumia... and they say explicitly "no slot for micro-SD cards". Well bang goes that possible purchase then! Unless the Nokia offer an option with their phones with significantly more memory on board they can just forget it as far as I am concerned.
:)
marc1000 - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
i hope nokia will offer a LOT more options soon.... they had the most complete lineup of models with symbian. it makes no sense to have only a few options with windows.bjacobson - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
bad headphone jack location. Unless there's no landscape keyboard in WP7?marc1000 - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
twist it the other way around...FrederickL - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
@Brian Klug
As I am sure you have seen further down the thread Brian, both Marc 1000 and I have seen that the Nokia site (https://www.nokia.co.uk/gb-en/products/phone/lumia... explicitly states that the 710 does *not* have a micro-SD slot. What is the source of the confusion here please?
Best wishes
Fred
Landiepete - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
Can't comment on the specs, but I think it's butt ugly. It's like some of those baby toys in bright colors instead of a high end tool.bernardl - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
I haven't played with one yet, but these Nokia sure seem the most exiting they have released in years.As an iPhone 4 and iPad 2 user I am not sure that the iOS UI is really best suited for a phone, WP7 seems superior.
Cheers,
Bernard
shorty lickens - Friday, October 28, 2011 - link
If those pics are correct it seems we finally have proper offline maps! First thing I been excited about in years. Of course we would certainly want loads on on-board or expandable storage to take advantage of that, but its still a nice feature, something lacking from most other manufacturers.As for the above comments: It seems like WP7 has its strongest presence in the U.S. right now, so it really would have made more sense to start distributing here first. Europe may start enjoying WP7 now but its not a sure market.
Also this is the first product I've been genuinely excited for in years, and I really just want it right now.
zhangqq - Monday, October 31, 2011 - link
http://ygn.me/bTf7p