The prices themselves are not only ridiculous, but the difference between the high end and low end models are laughable as well. 400 MHz boost and 250GB extra storage for $300 on 13" Model? 200 MHz boost and 250GB extra storage and a slight GPU bump for $400 on 15" model? And $2500 for a 17" laptop and it doesn't even come with SSD standard.
Pricing to match the market (something cheap for the poorer, something slightly better for the richer) is something that has been done for hundreds of years. Think paperbacks vs hardbacks. Think "standard CD" vs "deluxe edition". Think first class vs economy class airline tickets. etc etc
Apple's pricing allows poor people to buy a nice system, while it ALSO allows for richer people to subsidize Apple into doing the research that brings us ALL better systems. Exactly what is your complaint with it? You'd prefer to see prices that reflect nothing but parts and assembly cost? Leaving NOTHING over for research into better ways of doing things? That's worked out so well for the PC industry hasn't it?
While I agree with most of your comments, the comment "Apple's pricing allows poor people to buy a nice system" is just laughable. A poor man is lucky to have a car that's worth as much as a Macbook. Now if you meant to use "middle class" instead of poor, you might be on to something, but a person of limited funds is a fool to buy a new Mac or PC.
"but a person of limited funds is a fool to buy a new Mac or PC." "Apple's pricing allows poor people to buy a nice system,"
Who said anything about buying a NEW system? I agree --- if you are poor, the smart thing to do is buy a second-hand system on eBay or CL. But being poor doesn't mean you can't have any nice things; it means you prioritize. When I was a poor student, I bought a mac over a car --- for me that was a better use of my dollars.
Well, Apple has no control over what a used machine costs, as that's based largely on condition, quality, and demand. I bought a refurbed PowerMac from Apple Store once. It worked great for a few months, then started Kernel Panics that even reformatting wouldn't fix. I haven't had much luck with cheap notebooks either. I ended up going back to building my own machines, which seem to last for a long long time. I even built a hackintosh once, but I could never get suspend to work. I just wish you could put OSX on anything. :(
We all know Apple's fat margins ride mostly on their brand name rather than substance(Apple Care not included) . He was making a valid point on a higher end mac. "Circuits" are very democratic, in the sense that they work the same way regardless of the Louie Vuitton packaging.
He's just making an obvious but a certainly the most important point that the article failed to mention. Those prices are ludicrous even for someone who is even remotely considering buying a MacBook Pro would feel taken advantage of.
Here's why, for what you would pay for in the 15" high-end Mac, you can get a:
HP DV6T Quad-Core with a much better configuration and even if you are an only-Mac OSX user, you can buy the software separately and still save over $500.
Or he could, you know... Express his opinion as is his RIGHT and which is the purpose of this forum. And you could STFU and don't read it or reply to him. Who is holding a gun to your head to be here?
The GPU bump is actually worth something here. The old GPU was hardly worth having in the system on account of it already having HD3000 onboard.
These things are expensive, but they also obviously, aren´t targeted at you.
I get really tired of people comparing specs vs. price vs. PC on macs. People who want a Mac will get a Mac. Don`t like Macs and their price premium and quality? Don`t buy one.
Going from a 6750 to a 6770 (the low and high 15") is NOT worth something.
And they aren't targeted at me. They are targeted at uninformed and/or delusional consumers that think just because something is made out of aluminum it means its worth 2-3x the price of PC alternatives. These laptops have very poor heat distribution and inadequate vents. The batteries are not powerful enough to run the system at 100%; you need to plug in the ac adapter in order to get 100%.
This isn't quality. This is cutting corners in all the wrong places. Give me a well ventilated plastic laptop with a full sized battery and ac adapter.
And if you want quality and not plastic, get a Vaio or an Envy.
Bingo! If the Apple lemmings don't like people pointing out the several flaws of their computers then they can go elsewhere! Who the hell are they to tell anyone to stfu or go away? Arrogant twits.
The 6770 is not a high end graphics solution. Nvidia should have been used here with their superior Optimis (sp?) technology. A minimum of a 560m should have been included in a Macbook Pro.
LOL at people telling us that "People who want a Mac will get a Mac." It makes me wonder why almost all of them then turn around and load Windows 7 on them. That's an extra $200+ on top of their shiny, underwhelming paper weight.
"t makes me wonder why almost all of them then turn around and load Windows 7 on them. That's an extra $200+ on top of their shiny, underwhelming paper weight."
I'm an informed consumer. I've built custom desktop computers for 8 years, worked in IT support for 11, and have been using computers for almost the entire 30 years I've been on this Earth, and I know exactly what I'm getting when I buy a Mac. Anyone who happens to ask me, "Who makes the best laptops?" will typically get the response, "Apple," followed by a number of manufacturers in the order of which one pisses me off the least. (Dell, HP, Acer, and Sony can suck it; Lenovo seems to know what they're doing for now.)
Modern Apple computers are computer-idiot-proof, and computer-idiots will gladly pay the price for the convenience of not having to think about how to make their computer work the way they want it to (most people have other things to do with their time, it seems). Hell, I like the fact that I go home, after a day of making Windows computers work, to a Mac that doesn't require me to prod it into doing what I want it to.
Also, I beg to differ about how hot Macs run. I have a 3 year old MBP 15" and a 6 month old MBP 13", and neither get anything more than mildly warm under load. Also, they both get 5-7 hours of battery (3-4 hours if you push them) without some giant, heavy, extended-life battery.
Sony Vaios are awful, and HP Envy's are a slightly more palatable flavor of awful. It seems your preference leans towards, "Power first, portability and battery life second." Which is fine, I suppose, if you don't carry the thing with you everywhere like most people I know do (because that's what they're for... or so I've been lead to believe over the last few decades).
Finally, before anyone hauls off making fun of my comments as that of another Apple lemming, may I remind you that Anand himself prefers Mac laptops for daily use. If that doesn't convince you that you might be a tinge jaded on this subject, I don't know what will.
Your thoughts may have been valid in pre-Windows 7 days but not anymore. Of all the Windows OS's, Windows 7 gave me the least amount of grief.
And I'm not just talking about external case heat issues. I am referring to the internal water boiling temperatures the CPU chips endure in the systems themselves.
My preference leans towards give me the power I want when I want it regardless of whether or not its plugged in. If I want to save power, I'll switch to Power Saver myself. But when I want performance, I want 100%, not 80-90%.
And I trust Anand's judgement when it comes to testing CPUs, GPUs, screens, etc. He has a right to his own opinion when it comes to laptops and desktops. He formulates his opinions very well. I just don't agree with him. Just because Anand likes it doesn't mean its blasphemy to disagree with him.
The difference between you and Anand is that his opinions are based on logic and reason, while your arguments are almost always based on personal rhetoric and emotion.
You think that only because like me you have used Windows forever. For the average computer user, Windows 7 is too complex to use, and the interaction with the OS seems dated. Your demand of 100% power all the time is pretty irrelevant to 99% of buyers in the real world because they are trying to get something done, not run benchmarks. My point is that you have alot more interest in computers themselves than the average person, so don't assume everybody feels the same way. Those that want a mac have no other options, they either pay the money or they don't, leave them to it. I personally use Macs because they are simply better designed, and I'm not bothered abcout the price. I run windows 7 on them as well as OSX, and they are decent systems. If you are poorer or on a budget, then a mac holds its value far more than the equivalent pc, which tells you everything you need to know.
Um, why would you buy these "Pro" models if you aren't doing something CPU/GPU intensive such as video/audio editing/rendering or game testing? So your defense against not having adequate batteries or ac adapters that can take 100% of the load is "Oh well, most don't care so you don't get it?"
That's the most asinine thing I have ever heard and the number 1 thing I hate about Apple (and people that buy it). They just put up with the bullshit and think it's their only option. News flash! There is a third option: BUY SOMETHING ELSE.
I get SO tired of everyone trying to tell MBP owners they've been ripped-off because you can get XYZ spec cheaper from Dell or one of the other box shifters.
So what? Value doesn't always equate to price. If you can find a laptop that can run some random game at max everything and last 30 mins on battery I'm really happy for you, but for ME who earns a living from being productive on the move, I'll take a MBP every day of the week, the ROI is made in a couple of weeks, the screen and battery life by themselves justify the cost.
I'm a pretty die-hard Windows user, to the point where I look at Apple products with a hint of disdain. I also happen to review and handle a lot of Windows laptop, and as the Dell XPS 14z review I posted today points out, Apple wins out on design and build quality in many comparisons. I would very much prefer a solid aluminum laptop over a plastic laptop, and Apple provides that. They also seem to be one of the few companies that really understands just how important a high quality display is to an enjoyable experience -- only the regular MacBook has gone with a cheap, low quality panel in the past three or four years.
Where they do tend to miss the boat is in their cooling capability -- either the MBPs run too hot under load, or they get too loud; choose one. This is simple physics of course. If you have a smaller pathway for air to flow through, it will take more force (re: fan speed) to get air through it. So, for running heavy loads or playing games, the MacBook Pro can get uncomfortably loud/hot, but for everything else they do great.
All that said, I still can't stand OS X. It's better than running Linux, but I'm far happier with Windows. It's just a bunch of little things that irritate me. I also dislike Apple's touchpad a lot, but perhaps if I made a full switch to OS X and an MBP for a while I could adapt. Unfortunately for Apple, I'm not willing to spend that much time adapting to a new OS, a new laptop, and a change in my day-to-day applications. (Actually, it's mostly that I'm unwilling to spend the money to repurchase some very costly apps that I have for Windows.)
That's funny, like you - I'm mainly a windows user. When I use my wife's mac I'm very jealous of the touchpad. I'm not sure if it's the size, response, or gestures of the mac touchpad that I like so much. Probably a combo of all. The despicable quality of the dell latitude touch pad ruins me. Otherwise, it's been a quality laptop.
Well I beg to differ. Even guys at work who run OSX on the new MacBook Pros with Sandy Bridge chips comment all the time how hot these things get when running our two IDEs, database, web server, and a virtual environment. Definitely runs hot when running Windows under which they don't provide a driver for the integrated graphics.
<quote>Going from a 6750 to a 6770 (the low and high 15") is NOT worth something.</quote>
True, but going from the old 15" low end machine that had a 6470M to the 6750M in the "new" low end 15" is worth something, at least in terms of a significant change for the lineup. The other models (going from the old mid version to the new mid version, and going from the old high version to the high new version) aren't really noteworthy (minor speed bumps).
"Uninformed consumers" is just pathetic. These things have great trackpads (the only trackpads that don't make me miss a mouse), great bodies, the magsafe adapter is immensely practical and the whole machine is extremely easy to keep clean and will look as good as new even after years of daily use (like mine). And then you can still sell them after a few years for good money.
And could you please give a source for "you need to plug in the ac adapter in order to get 100%"? This was the case with the very first Macbook Air AFAIK, but this is history.
There is a kind of spec-wanking that really makes you blind to important things.
If you are running on pure battery power, the battery does not have enough power to push the CPU and GPU to 100% of its power. In order to get that, you need it plugged in WITH the battery. So suppose you are mainly using the laptop at home and very rarely take it out. What most people do (or should do) is ensure there is enough charge on the battery, take it out, and plug it in.
However, the ac adapter alone does not have powerto push the CPU/GPU to 100% as well.
In other words, you need the battery and ac adapter together at all times in order to get 100% of the power for your Pro needs (video/audio editing and rendering, game testing, virtual OS, etc).
Actually even the power brick isn't powerful enough to power the system at full tilt.
And you are absolutely correct that heat distribution is terrible on them and they don't have adequate venting. The only vent is behind the screen and the air typically hits the back of the screen a bit causing it to be trapped. Plus if you have it on your lap, the vent can easily be blocked.
The left rear corner of the laptop gets extremely hot while the rest is not because there's there the power inverter and battery are. Instead they largely rely on the chassis to dissipate heat which means it dissipates into your lap.
I have a Macbook Pro for work that I'm on right now. Its a quick machine to be sure but after having this one, it only reinforces my opinion that Apple's aren't worth the money.
It's a good thing there are so many PC laptops that give such a great balance between size, weight, performance, battery life, all with excellent displays, keyboards, and trackpads.
Oh wait, they don't really exist, not unless you go into the high end business class range. Even if I was only running Windows 7 it would still be on a MBP. Sorry if you don't see the value in well balanced and practically designed hardware.
The drawbacks are if you want to use a laptop on your lap since aluminum conducts heat and the chassis itself aids with thermal dissipation. I always use it on a table so I haven't had issues with that.
Otherwise you're looking at an excellent keyboard, the best trackpad out there, magsafe power connector, and some of the best balance between horsepower, weight, chassis size, and battery life out there. That seems like a logically and well balanced product to me.
I put Win7 on my MBP13'09. I am most comfortable with Windows and there was no comparable laptop on the market in the summer of 2009.
In all honesty, the Macbook Pros haven't changed much since then. Performance has ballooned (mostly due to SNB) and battery life has evolved, but the Macbook Pros haven't had groundbreaking changes. Yet, they are still able to hold their own in today's market (though less so than a few years ago).
So there must be something to a Macbook Pro that makes them competitive. It's more than the performance. It's more than the operating system. It's in the little things. Battery life is stellar for such high performance machines. Build quality is top-notch. The trackpad is STILL unmatched. The keyboard is satisfactory. The screen is excellent for a TN. Each quality is unremarkable by itself, but when you combine them all in a machine that's much smaller than the competition, you have a winner.
Great post. For whatever drawbacks they may have, they get more right overall than the majority of other laptops. Lenovos and MBPs are all I consider at this point, and the price argument goes right out the window there as the machines I'd want are priced pretty closely.
I, too, considered both Thinkpads and MBPs for my first laptop. While I love the Thinkpad aesthetic, the MBP's trackpad and battery life ultimately won me over.
I will still use windows, but i don't have them installed separately, everything i need is in a couple of windows and linux VMs. And all that in a macbook pro that doesn't run hot, that you install a little piece of software to manually control the fan speed, that can run just fine at 100% with just the battery, that has the best ergonomics, the best trackpad, one of the best keyboards (at least i have the same for my desktop so it's perhaps just being used to it), a great display, and available repair parts.
Lion, with the multitouch touchpad and multiple desktops has increased my productivity significantly. It's so refreshing not to have to use a key combination to switch between the 6-10 desktops i have open.
The prices are "ridiculous only if you compare them to garbage laptops with crap screens, keyboards, and trackpads. Comparably priced and specced Lenovos like the x220 come out around the same. HP Elitebooks and Sony Zs can be even more expensive.
If you want a cheaply made notebook or one that compromises portability and battery life in any way, you can absolutely get a less expensive one. If you want to compromise on fewer things then you'll spend more whether it is from Apple or anyone else.
The feel of a solid piece of aluminum is unrivaled. I have a MBP and an HP Envy and a 15" Dell XPS 15z to compare to. The Build quality, MBP easily bests all the other manufacturers. Is it worth it? probably not. I can't play starcraft on my 13" MBP, like I can on ly dell xps 15z and my hp envy 14.
HP Envy 14 (non radiance screen) sitting next to the MBP is clearly a sign on how much the screen on the MBP is superior. I've yet to see the radiance screen, but they sure did not mess around when they constructed the MBP. Plus apple has the patented mag-safe connector, which stands out of the bunch.
If I want an end all be all laptop, I'd get the high end 15" MBP. Gaming, build quality, style is all there. The only thing I can't bring myself to gather is the funds. This is a personal decision, and I would rather spend the money on other things.
Goodness I wish they would push the 15" GPU in the 13", and my problems would be solved!
"Hold a candle" in what way? Raw performance, sure. Battery life, build quality, keyboard layout? Clevo's P150HM won't win any awards in those areas, that's for certain. But yes, if you want performance Apple definitely isn't a great choice, particularly if you're going to run Win7.
YES. 5400RPM... but.. somehow on my Early 2011 MBP 15" (high-end, as we're calling them here) I was stumped on that spec... it was almost a dealbreaker for me.
But, I bought in home a few months ago, ran a few benchmarks in OS X and Win7, and it performed *THE SAME* as a Momentus XT Hybrid that I installed in my Dell Studio a few months back.
I also game on it and I can confirm that the Hard Drive is not the bottleneck. It is also not a bottleneck when transcoding high def. video from one folder on the 5400 RPM drive to another folder on the same drive, as all CPU (or GPU, depending) cores are maxed.
I don't know how they did it, but drive performance is shockingly not an issue for me.
Most people bashing Macs have an issue looking past the brand. There are legit gripes with the hardware, but there are legit gripes with hardware from any manufacturer. It's all about where your priorities lie. IMHO Macs get more things right than others in terms of laptops. Unfortunately most notebooks are garbage.
I can't understand the hate the anti-Apple crowd have. I am not an idiot nor am I technically challenged. I have made a good living from IT, I remember the days when we had to manually manage memory in DOS. I have used many OSes both personally and professionally, including most flavours of Windows (desktop & server), Unix, Linux, OSx and even Warp OS2!
No one tells me that I'm a moron because I have an Audi S4. Yes a Ford Focus can get me from A to B just the same, and it costs a lot less but I didn't want a Focus. I like my Audi and was willing to pay my money to get it. I have a nice house, filled with nice things. No one challenged my right to buy a harmon/kardon entertainment system when I can buy a no-name chinese DVD player for a few bucks.
The same choice applies to my personal computing requirements. I use a MBP, I researched it, I liked it so I spent my money on it. It does everything I need. Why should I be vilified because I made an educated, informed purchasing decision that may have differed from what someone else may have made.
People call us iSheep or snobs. I didn't but a Mac because I think it's cool. For god's sake I'm a professional geek...I have never been "cool". I don't look down my nose at people who buy other laptops, again the geek in me comes out and I like to have a play. I'm not evangelical about Apple products, if people ask for purchasing advice I listen to their requirements before making a recommendation.
Why should the buying decisions of others raise so many peoples' hackles? It's my money, why can't I spend it where I want without being challenged by others? I value design and aesthetics, I like the design of the MBP, maybe you don't, that's fine...feel free to spend your money on something else. But please, do not for one moment think that buying some cheaper model somehow makes you more intelligent or morally superior to me.
"Why should the buying decisions of others raise so many peoples' hackles? It's my money, why can't I spend it where I want without being challenged by others?"
Because some users are insecure and hostile for some bizarre reason. No idea why.
Basically you threw out a few extra thousand on a Volkswagen Jetta with a fancy label. If you lived in Europe it would be even worse, as you'd be looking at having thrown away the price premium between an Audi and a Skoda.
I'm British. And neither VW or Skoda have an equivalent to the S4! But once again it's my money. If it was your money I was spending then you're opinion would be warranted, but that's just not the case.
We’ve updated our terms. By continuing to use the site and/or by logging into your account, you agree to the Site’s updated Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.
Facebook
Twitter
RSS
62 Comments
Back to Article
quiksilvr - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
The prices themselves are not only ridiculous, but the difference between the high end and low end models are laughable as well.400 MHz boost and 250GB extra storage for $300 on 13" Model?
200 MHz boost and 250GB extra storage and a slight GPU bump for $400 on 15" model?
And $2500 for a 17" laptop and it doesn't even come with SSD standard.
inplainview - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Who is holding a gun to your head to buy one? Don't like what is offered, then STFU and don't buy one. Problem solved.quiksilvr - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
No one. I'm just emphasizing a point a lot of articles are failing to point out.name99 - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Pricing to match the market (something cheap for the poorer, something slightly better for the richer) is something that has been done for hundreds of years. Think paperbacks vs hardbacks. Think "standard CD" vs "deluxe edition". Think first class vs economy class airline tickets. etc etcApple's pricing allows poor people to buy a nice system, while it ALSO allows for richer people to subsidize Apple into doing the research that brings us ALL better systems.
Exactly what is your complaint with it? You'd prefer to see prices that reflect nothing but parts and assembly cost? Leaving NOTHING over for research into better ways of doing things? That's worked out so well for the PC industry hasn't it?
MonkeyPaw - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
While I agree with most of your comments, the comment "Apple's pricing allows poor people to buy a nice system" is just laughable. A poor man is lucky to have a car that's worth as much as a Macbook. Now if you meant to use "middle class" instead of poor, you might be on to something, but a person of limited funds is a fool to buy a new Mac or PC.name99 - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
"but a person of limited funds is a fool to buy a new Mac or PC.""Apple's pricing allows poor people to buy a nice system,"
Who said anything about buying a NEW system? I agree --- if you are poor, the smart thing to do is buy a second-hand system on eBay or CL. But being poor doesn't mean you can't have any nice things; it means you prioritize. When I was a poor student, I bought a mac over a car --- for me that was a better use of my dollars.
MonkeyPaw - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Well, Apple has no control over what a used machine costs, as that's based largely on condition, quality, and demand. I bought a refurbed PowerMac from Apple Store once. It worked great for a few months, then started Kernel Panics that even reformatting wouldn't fix. I haven't had much luck with cheap notebooks either. I ended up going back to building my own machines, which seem to last for a long long time. I even built a hackintosh once, but I could never get suspend to work. I just wish you could put OSX on anything. :(ananduser - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
We all know Apple's fat margins ride mostly on their brand name rather than substance(Apple Care not included) . He was making a valid point on a higher end mac. "Circuits" are very democratic, in the sense that they work the same way regardless of the Louie Vuitton packaging.bupkus - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Tell me, pal... just who the fuck do you think you are?Are you the new posting police?
Hey, inplainview, just tell him to f*** off. He deserves nothing more.
bupkus - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Sorry, got the names mixed up. He touched a nerve.Hey, quiksilvr, just tell him to f*** off. He deserves nothing more.
Fixed.
soliozuz - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
He's just making an obvious but a certainly the most important point that the article failed to mention. Those prices are ludicrous even for someone who is even remotely considering buying a MacBook Pro would feel taken advantage of.Here's why, for what you would pay for in the 15" high-end Mac, you can get a:
HP DV6T Quad-Core with a much better configuration and even if you are an only-Mac OSX user, you can buy the software separately and still save over $500.
dcaxax - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
Or he could, you know... Express his opinion as is his RIGHT and which is the purpose of this forum. And you could STFU and don't read it or reply to him. Who is holding a gun to your head to be here?ananduser - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
What a stinkin' attitude you have there... at least provide some arguments instead of your "STFU" comment.dacramer - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Still, there is something to be said about customer service with pricing.Just because its good financial practice to charge what the market bears, does not make it good customer service.
drgigolo - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
The GPU bump is actually worth something here. The old GPU was hardly worth having in the system on account of it already having HD3000 onboard.These things are expensive, but they also obviously, aren´t targeted at you.
I get really tired of people comparing specs vs. price vs. PC on macs. People who want a Mac will get a Mac. Don`t like Macs and their price premium and quality? Don`t buy one.
inplainview - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Exactlyquiksilvr - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Going from a 6750 to a 6770 (the low and high 15") is NOT worth something.And they aren't targeted at me. They are targeted at uninformed and/or delusional consumers that think just because something is made out of aluminum it means its worth 2-3x the price of PC alternatives. These laptops have very poor heat distribution and inadequate vents. The batteries are not powerful enough to run the system at 100%; you need to plug in the ac adapter in order to get 100%.
This isn't quality. This is cutting corners in all the wrong places. Give me a well ventilated plastic laptop with a full sized battery and ac adapter.
And if you want quality and not plastic, get a Vaio or an Envy.
sigmatau - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Bingo! If the Apple lemmings don't like people pointing out the several flaws of their computers then they can go elsewhere! Who the hell are they to tell anyone to stfu or go away? Arrogant twits.The 6770 is not a high end graphics solution. Nvidia should have been used here with their superior Optimis (sp?) technology. A minimum of a 560m should have been included in a Macbook Pro.
LOL at people telling us that "People who want a Mac will get a Mac." It makes me wonder why almost all of them then turn around and load Windows 7 on them. That's an extra $200+ on top of their shiny, underwhelming paper weight.
FITCamaro - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
The 6750 may not be the highest end chip but it is quick to be sure. I run The Old Republic beta on this laptop.name99 - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
"t makes me wonder why almost all of them then turn around and load Windows 7 on them. That's an extra $200+ on top of their shiny, underwhelming paper weight."Proof for this claim? I call bullshit.
michaelheath - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
I'm an informed consumer. I've built custom desktop computers for 8 years, worked in IT support for 11, and have been using computers for almost the entire 30 years I've been on this Earth, and I know exactly what I'm getting when I buy a Mac. Anyone who happens to ask me, "Who makes the best laptops?" will typically get the response, "Apple," followed by a number of manufacturers in the order of which one pisses me off the least. (Dell, HP, Acer, and Sony can suck it; Lenovo seems to know what they're doing for now.)Modern Apple computers are computer-idiot-proof, and computer-idiots will gladly pay the price for the convenience of not having to think about how to make their computer work the way they want it to (most people have other things to do with their time, it seems). Hell, I like the fact that I go home, after a day of making Windows computers work, to a Mac that doesn't require me to prod it into doing what I want it to.
Also, I beg to differ about how hot Macs run. I have a 3 year old MBP 15" and a 6 month old MBP 13", and neither get anything more than mildly warm under load. Also, they both get 5-7 hours of battery (3-4 hours if you push them) without some giant, heavy, extended-life battery.
Sony Vaios are awful, and HP Envy's are a slightly more palatable flavor of awful. It seems your preference leans towards, "Power first, portability and battery life second." Which is fine, I suppose, if you don't carry the thing with you everywhere like most people I know do (because that's what they're for... or so I've been lead to believe over the last few decades).
Finally, before anyone hauls off making fun of my comments as that of another Apple lemming, may I remind you that Anand himself prefers Mac laptops for daily use. If that doesn't convince you that you might be a tinge jaded on this subject, I don't know what will.
quiksilvr - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Your thoughts may have been valid in pre-Windows 7 days but not anymore. Of all the Windows OS's, Windows 7 gave me the least amount of grief.And I'm not just talking about external case heat issues. I am referring to the internal water boiling temperatures the CPU chips endure in the systems themselves.
My preference leans towards give me the power I want when I want it regardless of whether or not its plugged in. If I want to save power, I'll switch to Power Saver myself. But when I want performance, I want 100%, not 80-90%.
And I trust Anand's judgement when it comes to testing CPUs, GPUs, screens, etc. He has a right to his own opinion when it comes to laptops and desktops. He formulates his opinions very well. I just don't agree with him. Just because Anand likes it doesn't mean its blasphemy to disagree with him.
KoolAidMan1 - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
The difference between you and Anand is that his opinions are based on logic and reason, while your arguments are almost always based on personal rhetoric and emotion.robinthakur - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
You think that only because like me you have used Windows forever. For the average computer user, Windows 7 is too complex to use, and the interaction with the OS seems dated. Your demand of 100% power all the time is pretty irrelevant to 99% of buyers in the real world because they are trying to get something done, not run benchmarks. My point is that you have alot more interest in computers themselves than the average person, so don't assume everybody feels the same way. Those that want a mac have no other options, they either pay the money or they don't, leave them to it. I personally use Macs because they are simply better designed, and I'm not bothered abcout the price. I run windows 7 on them as well as OSX, and they are decent systems. If you are poorer or on a budget, then a mac holds its value far more than the equivalent pc, which tells you everything you need to know.quiksilvr - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
Um, why would you buy these "Pro" models if you aren't doing something CPU/GPU intensive such as video/audio editing/rendering or game testing? So your defense against not having adequate batteries or ac adapters that can take 100% of the load is "Oh well, most don't care so you don't get it?"That's the most asinine thing I have ever heard and the number 1 thing I hate about Apple (and people that buy it). They just put up with the bullshit and think it's their only option. News flash! There is a third option: BUY SOMETHING ELSE.
AnotherHariSeldon - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
What a refreshingly good post from michaelheath.I get SO tired of everyone trying to tell MBP owners they've been ripped-off because you can get XYZ spec cheaper from Dell or one of the other box shifters.
So what? Value doesn't always equate to price. If you can find a laptop that can run some random game at max everything and last 30 mins on battery I'm really happy for you, but for ME who earns a living from being productive on the move, I'll take a MBP every day of the week, the ROI is made in a couple of weeks, the screen and battery life by themselves justify the cost.
JarredWalton - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
I'm a pretty die-hard Windows user, to the point where I look at Apple products with a hint of disdain. I also happen to review and handle a lot of Windows laptop, and as the Dell XPS 14z review I posted today points out, Apple wins out on design and build quality in many comparisons. I would very much prefer a solid aluminum laptop over a plastic laptop, and Apple provides that. They also seem to be one of the few companies that really understands just how important a high quality display is to an enjoyable experience -- only the regular MacBook has gone with a cheap, low quality panel in the past three or four years.Where they do tend to miss the boat is in their cooling capability -- either the MBPs run too hot under load, or they get too loud; choose one. This is simple physics of course. If you have a smaller pathway for air to flow through, it will take more force (re: fan speed) to get air through it. So, for running heavy loads or playing games, the MacBook Pro can get uncomfortably loud/hot, but for everything else they do great.
All that said, I still can't stand OS X. It's better than running Linux, but I'm far happier with Windows. It's just a bunch of little things that irritate me. I also dislike Apple's touchpad a lot, but perhaps if I made a full switch to OS X and an MBP for a while I could adapt. Unfortunately for Apple, I'm not willing to spend that much time adapting to a new OS, a new laptop, and a change in my day-to-day applications. (Actually, it's mostly that I'm unwilling to spend the money to repurchase some very costly apps that I have for Windows.)
jamyryals - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
That's funny, like you - I'm mainly a windows user. When I use my wife's mac I'm very jealous of the touchpad. I'm not sure if it's the size, response, or gestures of the mac touchpad that I like so much. Probably a combo of all. The despicable quality of the dell latitude touch pad ruins me. Otherwise, it's been a quality laptop.FITCamaro - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Well I beg to differ. Even guys at work who run OSX on the new MacBook Pros with Sandy Bridge chips comment all the time how hot these things get when running our two IDEs, database, web server, and a virtual environment. Definitely runs hot when running Windows under which they don't provide a driver for the integrated graphics.erple2 - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
<quote>Going from a 6750 to a 6770 (the low and high 15") is NOT worth something.</quote>True, but going from the old 15" low end machine that had a 6470M to the 6750M in the "new" low end 15" is worth something, at least in terms of a significant change for the lineup. The other models (going from the old mid version to the new mid version, and going from the old high version to the high new version) aren't really noteworthy (minor speed bumps).
uhuznaa - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
"Uninformed consumers" is just pathetic. These things have great trackpads (the only trackpads that don't make me miss a mouse), great bodies, the magsafe adapter is immensely practical and the whole machine is extremely easy to keep clean and will look as good as new even after years of daily use (like mine). And then you can still sell them after a few years for good money.And could you please give a source for "you need to plug in the ac adapter in order to get 100%"? This was the case with the very first Macbook Air AFAIK, but this is history.
There is a kind of spec-wanking that really makes you blind to important things.
quiksilvr - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
If you are running on pure battery power, the battery does not have enough power to push the CPU and GPU to 100% of its power. In order to get that, you need it plugged in WITH the battery. So suppose you are mainly using the laptop at home and very rarely take it out. What most people do (or should do) is ensure there is enough charge on the battery, take it out, and plug it in.However, the ac adapter alone does not have powerto push the CPU/GPU to 100% as well.
In other words, you need the battery and ac adapter together at all times in order to get 100% of the power for your Pro needs (video/audio editing and rendering, game testing, virtual OS, etc).
quiksilvr - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
Plug it in refers to the laptop being plugged into the ac adapter. Damn you dangling particle!FITCamaro - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Actually even the power brick isn't powerful enough to power the system at full tilt.And you are absolutely correct that heat distribution is terrible on them and they don't have adequate venting. The only vent is behind the screen and the air typically hits the back of the screen a bit causing it to be trapped. Plus if you have it on your lap, the vent can easily be blocked.
The left rear corner of the laptop gets extremely hot while the rest is not because there's there the power inverter and battery are. Instead they largely rely on the chassis to dissipate heat which means it dissipates into your lap.
I have a Macbook Pro for work that I'm on right now. Its a quick machine to be sure but after having this one, it only reinforces my opinion that Apple's aren't worth the money.
KoolAidMan1 - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
It's a good thing there are so many PC laptops that give such a great balance between size, weight, performance, battery life, all with excellent displays, keyboards, and trackpads.Oh wait, they don't really exist, not unless you go into the high end business class range. Even if I was only running Windows 7 it would still be on a MBP. Sorry if you don't see the value in well balanced and practically designed hardware.
FITCamaro - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
That's the problem. Its not practically designed. It's designed with aesthetics first and practicality/functionality second.KoolAidMan1 - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
The drawbacks are if you want to use a laptop on your lap since aluminum conducts heat and the chassis itself aids with thermal dissipation. I always use it on a table so I haven't had issues with that.Otherwise you're looking at an excellent keyboard, the best trackpad out there, magsafe power connector, and some of the best balance between horsepower, weight, chassis size, and battery life out there. That seems like a logically and well balanced product to me.
iSmug - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
Any chance these can run a third thunderbolt display now?lukarak - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
You don't buy macs because of the raw specs.sigmatau - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
You buy macs to put Windows on them. We got it.ImSpartacus - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
I put Win7 on my MBP13'09. I am most comfortable with Windows and there was no comparable laptop on the market in the summer of 2009.In all honesty, the Macbook Pros haven't changed much since then. Performance has ballooned (mostly due to SNB) and battery life has evolved, but the Macbook Pros haven't had groundbreaking changes. Yet, they are still able to hold their own in today's market (though less so than a few years ago).
So there must be something to a Macbook Pro that makes them competitive. It's more than the performance. It's more than the operating system. It's in the little things. Battery life is stellar for such high performance machines. Build quality is top-notch. The trackpad is STILL unmatched. The keyboard is satisfactory. The screen is excellent for a TN. Each quality is unremarkable by itself, but when you combine them all in a machine that's much smaller than the competition, you have a winner.
bupkus - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Another very well stated appreciation of the MBP.Thanks for avoiding even addressing the mud slingers of both camps; civility is so nice to hear.
Taking different positions is fine. I like to read of different takes but abusive diatribes really is unnecessary and just plain ugly.
KoolAidMan1 - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
Great post. For whatever drawbacks they may have, they get more right overall than the majority of other laptops. Lenovos and MBPs are all I consider at this point, and the price argument goes right out the window there as the machines I'd want are priced pretty closely.ImSpartacus - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
Yup, you get what you pay for.I, too, considered both Thinkpads and MBPs for my first laptop. While I love the Thinkpad aesthetic, the MBP's trackpad and battery life ultimately won me over.
Phanbot1 - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Perish the thought, Lion is so much nicer than Win 7. from the moment I got it, I kicked Win 7 off my 17" MBP.lukarak - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
I will still use windows, but i don't have them installed separately, everything i need is in a couple of windows and linux VMs. And all that in a macbook pro that doesn't run hot, that you install a little piece of software to manually control the fan speed, that can run just fine at 100% with just the battery, that has the best ergonomics, the best trackpad, one of the best keyboards (at least i have the same for my desktop so it's perhaps just being used to it), a great display, and available repair parts.Lion, with the multitouch touchpad and multiple desktops has increased my productivity significantly. It's so refreshing not to have to use a key combination to switch between the 6-10 desktops i have open.
starfalcon - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
It's Apple dude.......I've been outraged at their prices for a long time, but I just go get something else and let them make their money.KoolAidMan1 - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
The prices are "ridiculous only if you compare them to garbage laptops with crap screens, keyboards, and trackpads. Comparably priced and specced Lenovos like the x220 come out around the same. HP Elitebooks and Sony Zs can be even more expensive.If you want a cheaply made notebook or one that compromises portability and battery life in any way, you can absolutely get a less expensive one. If you want to compromise on fewer things then you'll spend more whether it is from Apple or anyone else.
damianrobertjones - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Let's hope that it's not thrown on as seen via tear downsstm1185 - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
They really couldn't bump that up to 8gb at $2500!finbarqs - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
The feel of a solid piece of aluminum is unrivaled. I have a MBP and an HP Envy and a 15" Dell XPS 15z to compare to. The Build quality, MBP easily bests all the other manufacturers. Is it worth it? probably not. I can't play starcraft on my 13" MBP, like I can on ly dell xps 15z and my hp envy 14.HP Envy 14 (non radiance screen) sitting next to the MBP is clearly a sign on how much the screen on the MBP is superior. I've yet to see the radiance screen, but they sure did not mess around when they constructed the MBP. Plus apple has the patented mag-safe connector, which stands out of the bunch.
If I want an end all be all laptop, I'd get the high end 15" MBP. Gaming, build quality, style is all there. The only thing I can't bring myself to gather is the funds. This is a personal decision, and I would rather spend the money on other things.
Goodness I wish they would push the 15" GPU in the 13", and my problems would be solved!
solipsism - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Did HP ever resolved the horrible trackpad drivers in the Envys? If so, how does it's large multitouch trackpad compare with Mac OS X on the MBP?Phanbot1 - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
As nice as the 15" MBP is, it'll never hold a candle to my Malibal Lotus P150HM.JarredWalton - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
"Hold a candle" in what way? Raw performance, sure. Battery life, build quality, keyboard layout? Clevo's P150HM won't win any awards in those areas, that's for certain. But yes, if you want performance Apple definitely isn't a great choice, particularly if you're going to run Win7.rscoot - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
Are you sure they're 5400 RPM and not 7200 RPM?loox - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
YES. 5400RPM... but.. somehow on my Early 2011 MBP 15" (high-end, as we're calling them here) I was stumped on that spec... it was almost a dealbreaker for me.But, I bought in home a few months ago, ran a few benchmarks in OS X and Win7, and it performed *THE SAME* as a Momentus XT Hybrid that I installed in my Dell Studio a few months back.
I also game on it and I can confirm that the Hard Drive is not the bottleneck. It is also not a bottleneck when transcoding high def. video from one folder on the 5400 RPM drive to another folder on the same drive, as all CPU (or GPU, depending) cores are maxed.
I don't know how they did it, but drive performance is shockingly not an issue for me.
vision33r - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link
If Anand gets to play or even own the most powerful Windows notebook and reviews them.Why is he using a Macbook? I think people that hate them have issues looking past the brand.
KoolAidMan1 - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - link
Most people bashing Macs have an issue looking past the brand. There are legit gripes with the hardware, but there are legit gripes with hardware from any manufacturer. It's all about where your priorities lie. IMHO Macs get more things right than others in terms of laptops. Unfortunately most notebooks are garbage.Scubagee - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
I can't understand the hate the anti-Apple crowd have. I am not an idiot nor am I technically challenged. I have made a good living from IT, I remember the days when we had to manually manage memory in DOS. I have used many OSes both personally and professionally, including most flavours of Windows (desktop & server), Unix, Linux, OSx and even Warp OS2!No one tells me that I'm a moron because I have an Audi S4. Yes a Ford Focus can get me from A to B just the same, and it costs a lot less but I didn't want a Focus. I like my Audi and was willing to pay my money to get it. I have a nice house, filled with nice things. No one challenged my right to buy a harmon/kardon entertainment system when I can buy a no-name chinese DVD player for a few bucks.
The same choice applies to my personal computing requirements. I use a MBP, I researched it, I liked it so I spent my money on it. It does everything I need. Why should I be vilified because I made an educated, informed purchasing decision that may have differed from what someone else may have made.
People call us iSheep or snobs. I didn't but a Mac because I think it's cool. For god's sake I'm a professional geek...I have never been "cool". I don't look down my nose at people who buy other laptops, again the geek in me comes out and I like to have a play. I'm not evangelical about Apple products, if people ask for purchasing advice I listen to their requirements before making a recommendation.
Why should the buying decisions of others raise so many peoples' hackles? It's my money, why can't I spend it where I want without being challenged by others? I value design and aesthetics, I like the design of the MBP, maybe you don't, that's fine...feel free to spend your money on something else. But please, do not for one moment think that buying some cheaper model somehow makes you more intelligent or morally superior to me.
KoolAidMan1 - Wednesday, October 26, 2011 - link
"Why should the buying decisions of others raise so many peoples' hackles? It's my money, why can't I spend it where I want without being challenged by others?"Because some users are insecure and hostile for some bizarre reason. No idea why.
Osamede - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
Basically you threw out a few extra thousand on a Volkswagen Jetta with a fancy label. If you lived in Europe it would be even worse, as you'd be looking at having thrown away the price premium between an Audi and a Skoda.Scubagee - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - link
I'm British. And neither VW or Skoda have an equivalent to the S4! But once again it's my money. If it was your money I was spending then you're opinion would be warranted, but that's just not the case.