Hopefully, with Windows 8's launch, we'll start seeing more "open" tablet platforms, just like the desktop is today. You buy the hardware, and decide what software to run on it, what bootloader to use, etc. without having to resort to hacking.
Ok...but why would you want to run anything but Windows 8? It's cross platform and Metro interface already put it ahead of any linux distribution (excluding Android, if you want to consider that a linux distro)
Basically with Apple being proprietary, Palm currently in limbo, Symbian/Meego practically dead, and Microsofts announcement of no tablet plans for WinMo, you have two options in the tablet-world: Windows 8 and Android.
Windows 8 has numerous advantages over Android, but Android does have the Android Market with a ton of apps. It really depends on if you want to do real stuff on your tablet, or just want a toy running Android.
Windows 8 will allow you to run Windows PROGRAMS, which are far more useful than Android Apps. Quickbooks, custom SQL databases, 3DStudioMax, Adobe CS, the list goes on why Windows has already won the profitable business-platform.
People will remember back to iOS and Android tablets, those short-lived devices that pioneered the mass-consumer market adoption, but just couldn't do anything but play games, surf the web and check email.
Unless everything goes cloud-based (which it never will, an 'offline' mode will always be neccessary) then Windows wins by default by simply having programs such as those listed above.
> Ok...but why would you want to run anything but Windows 8? It's cross > platform and Metro interface already put it ahead of any linux distribution > (excluding Android, if you want to consider that a linux distro)
Gosh, I can't imagine why. . . oh wait, got it - because things change? Because people keep developing new versions of software? Because my needs are not your needs? Try not to be so narrow-minded.
Xorg is improving support for touchscreen input. Various linux distros are working on new UI shells and toolkits to accommodate tablets. Who knows what next year may bring. Or the next.
Doesn't matter... Win8 will run on current and future ARM CPUs.
Remember, Metro software runs on it's own API and it requires all apps to run on ARM. With that, WinMobile8 will come out for phones and tablets and guess what happens? Instant powerful apps for tablets.
How exactly? You do realize you won't have those "powerful apps" on Windows for ARM, right? And if they can be made for Windows for ARM later on - why couldn't they be made for iOS or Android, too?
You keep talking about "powerful apps" on "Windows tablets". Well even on a 2h battery life Intel chip that supports all those apps, the experience will be extremely poor just as it has always been on Windows tablets, because those apps are not optimized for touch.
Ever heard of Moorestown? x86 SoC designed by intel for smartphones and tablets. Since I havent read up too much on Windows 8 on tablets I'll reserve judgement on MS not allowing normal programs to run on the tablet version, but bear in mind there are alternatives to the ARM question.
Do you actually believe the crap you type? 2h battery life Intel chip? Extremely poor experience? You think developers won't go back and modify legacy programs to provide touch support on W8? Yeah, nothing ever gets updated.
Most of the applications for Windows are written in one of the followig: Java C/C++ .NET
I'd expect that compiling the latter two for Windows/ARM is going to be relatively easy once Visual Studio with platform support is out.
So stuff that is icc compiled, or features hand-optimized assembler will be harder to port, but that should be a minority. Also anything needing a certain hardware graphics support may not run on lesser devices - but that's nothing new.
So yes, software would have to be re-released for Windows/ARM or Windows/Multi , but if the Windows API is the same for ARM and x86, which should be the case, then there's really nothing to do in porting for 99% of the software than a quick recompile.
Linux isnt an option IMO, it is still way too far behind the power curve compared to Windows or OSX for that matter. I do understand that linux is improving, but improving touchscreen input is a lousy kind of rebuttal, and with so many distro's out there it lacks coherence in any way. If the driver issue (which isnt really linux fault) was better handled by companies that design PC components, it would more than likely be more widely adopted as a primary OS.
Windows on ARM will not support legacy x86 in the beginning. Windows on ARM *will* support Windows programs compiled for ARM. This includes desktop programs intended for ARM based netbooks/laptops and similar ARM based "complete" computers.
There is nothing stopping the creation of an x86 translation layer that will allow x86 code to be executed on an ARM CPU. There will be a performance hit, but instruction set execution layers have been used in the past for various purposes. These are not emulators, they function as minimal interpreters executing the native code equivalent of the instruction used.
For programs and apps intended for Win8, it would be poor planning to target one ISA while ignoring the other. The devs who want to maximize income will compile binaries for all ISAs supported by the version of Windows they are targeting.
Running windows on a tablet sounds nice until you realize that absolutely zero applications of the kind people *need* to run are not going to work right in tablets.
We're back to the problem of windows itself: it all relies on the third party to make things work right.
Windows is going to run SQL properly? Adobe CS properly? Quickbooks properly? Sure it will! Just not on a tablet.
Android has not been the first, it has been the leader, due to execution. That is entirely different from iOS.
Your sense of "meaningful sales" is compared to the iPad. A $1,000 tablet obviously will not have comparable sales and it is directed towards the niche market. If you don't a unique need for that type of machine (which was ahead of it's time, hardware wise) then the majority of the public won't be buying in.
As the hardware gets faster, lighter and less expensive, I want an OS that is ready and can do everything I want it to do with my setup - not an OS and company that tells me what I can do with their setup.
Execution of what? a still immature operating system? Theres a reason why Windows is STILL the desktop leader and why it is positioning it's next OS to become the leader of the tablet interface. One OS that will be on three diferrent platforms.
Except what you are saying has already been tried many times by Microsoft. Remember TabletPCs? They ran Windows + PROGRAMS as you said and they failed and they will continue to fail unless there are touch based apps that make sense.
I've owned a whole load of tabs over the years so I was there and know the history (In the UK).
The oems were also lazy .
Owned: HP TC1100, Toshiba M400, Toshiba M750, HP TC4200, HP TC4400, Fujitsu Tab, Latitude XT & XT2, Acer 1820ptz, Archos 9, Samsung Q1 ultra, Sony VGN-UX1XN, Viewsonic Viewpad 10, Asus R2h, HP 2740p, HP TM2-1050ea, Asus EP121, another HP TM2-2050ea, two Acer W500
The pre-beta of Win 8 released yesterday is for this. So developers can make Win 8 touch apps for the new Win 8 store a full year ahead of release. There will be LOADS of apps by then. This is Windows, not some random new OS no ones heard of that may or may not do well.
The need for backwards compatibility on a touch-based tablet device is rather minimal, especially once you consider that developers will have to adopt new development tools to produce native metro applications and then recompile to allow those to run on ARM as well.
No. Devs dont have to do learn anything new. They can use pretty much any current Windows programming language to make Metro apps. And use the usual Visual Studio to do it. At the Build conference yesterday MS showed an app converted to metro in a matter of minutes, it was all done live. It's NOTHING like other tablet platforms where you have to learn a whole ton of new stuff. Making Metro apps is stupid easy, you can even use HTML5/JS to do it and it will automatically be hardware accelerated.
My guess is that not all programs will work - at least I don't think 3DStudioMax would work on an ARM processor. Running x86 programs on an ARM will probably require some sort of emulation layer, which will slow things down.
"Windows 8 will allow you to run Windows PROGRAMS" Careful there... Windows 8 ON X86 will allow you to run Windows programs. My understanding is that the ARM version of Windows 8 (the version with only the Metro interface) will only run Windows 8 programs. That is, no legacy mode on ARM.
Anyway, Win 8 plus a Z-01 successor sounds pretty awesome.
I hope so, I was very happy to find that Visual Studio has simplified 64-bit programing to the point that all you do is change a drop-down from 'x86' to 'x64' and poof, it's 64-bit, optimizations and everything. (assuming you've written nutral code) Make something that simple for ARM development and we may even see games shipped for both.
"Windows 8 will allow you to run Windows PROGRAMS, which are far more useful than Android Apps. Quickbooks, custom SQL databases, 3DStudioMax, Adobe CS, the list goes on why Windows has already won the profitable business-platform."
Yet NONE of those apps will run on ARM, which is what Windows 8 tablets will be using.
Unless you pay $1,500 for x86, but in that case, why not just buy a Windows Tablet PC today?
So you've already checked in with those publishers and verified their refusal to develop Windows on ARM applications?
You are correct though ... no Win7 code will run on Win8 for ARM. Are you ready to back up your conclusion that these companies do not plan to sell native Win8 sortware?
I have spent the last two days running the Win8 DevPrev and I must say that I'm not as impressed as I thought I would be. I really love Win7, but 8 just failed to impress me. I still like Ubuntu 11's approach more than Windows8 with metro.
Only Win8 and Android for tablets ?. Not quite since we have no idea what the battery life is on the same tablet for Win8. I would not hold up much for it as it will likely 50%-60% LESS battery life, this would relegate it to much bigger tablets (11inch and above). All of which are way too big and way too heavy. A lightweight 9-10 incher is pretty much the norm now and with 2X or more performance with similar battery life, Android will lead the pack for sure. Yeah, iPads will lead parallel track until such time as Android becomes way more capable than it. The quad-core A9s will make this difference.
Excellent summary of why Windows 8 makes sense for those looking for a more robust, fully functional tablet - especially considering the respective hardware and its performance will continually go up as the electronics get more miniaturized.
Microsoft has been trying to sell tablets based on all those strengths for something like 20+ years, and the market has stayed away in droves. The first version was actually built on Windows 3.1 and was called Windows for Pen Computing (or something like that). It had handwriting recognition and an on-screen keyboard.
If you want to see why the ability to run Quickbooks (for example) on a tablet is not at all compelling, use a remote desktop app like Jump on an iPad to control Quickbooks running on a Windows computer. The limitations of that approach become apparent really quickly.
I'm still not getting the point of Windows 8 on ARM. AFAIK, you can't run x86 programs on that right? That's one big reason for running Windows out of the window (pun intended). Why not extend WP7 to tablets, if that is what Microsoft is after?
Windows 8 runs WP7 apps. So instead of crippling a tablet with a phone OS, why not make it more powerful with a full featured OS? This is fine so long as the full featured OS is resource efficient enough; which is what Microsoft seems to be going for with Win8.
Microsoft is going a different direction with tablets than Apple which I think is a sweet move.
Not only that, if you make programs for the .NET framework (which by now is very common) it would very easy to use on ARM. You would basically just have to wait for MS to make the ARM version .NET framework (I don't know if there would be a recompile required). It would be stupid if they didn't come out with it already. Same thing with Silverlight.
Oh, and I think it should be similar with JAVA. You would just need a ARM version of the virtual machine for Windows 8 and many straight up JAVA programs should work.
probably things like access to the file system PnP peripherals...
Going for the full OS even on ARM makes sense for MS. OK, the ARM version probably won't have 3DSMax version available or Photoshop and many other 1st tier software that's not Microsoft but you can bet that MS will have a full office suite for ARM W8 and that beats pretty much anything you have now or can expect from Android and iOS in the near future.
Whether Windows 8 will "succeed" or not, one thing is clear. Windows will not be the dominant OS in the market anymore. Considering that, Microsoft would be smart to at least save half of their revenue, by porting Office to iOS and Android. At least that way they ensure the survival of Office as Windows goes down.
Lol "as windows goes down" not gonna happen my friend, just because people like Tabs, doesnt mean the PC is going the way of the dodo. x86 for tablets and smartphones has already been developed by intel. Gotta love droid and iOS fanboys.
And its Flat, black, is a rectangle and look like it has only one button. So It looks like Apple will be suing them soon to prevent it from reaching the market place.
I'm personally very happy to see full-sized HDMI ports brought to the table. I always felt those are slim enough to be adopted by such devices anyway and being able to eschew adapter and the like completely is obviously ideal.
Umm... you do know that there are cables of mini and micro cables to full size on the other end.
The otehr reason is that physically, they use more space - height wise, so if you want a slim tablet, then normal size hdmi will not cut it. Same as normal size USB ports ;-)
Lots of shortsighted people here. Microsoft is primarily interested in selling to businesses. That's why past Windows tablets "failed" and why Windows Mobile was "not as good" as other smartphone platforms. Windows 8 on something else than x86 makes a lot of sense. It'll be manageable using standard tools like Group Policy. If you can't run x86 software on it you will probably be able to connect to a Remote Desktop Server, Citrix Xenapp or some VDI solution which WILL be able to run said software even on an underpowered tablet.
I just don't like the widescreen format. There Apple has chosen wisely with a 4:3 format.
I, too, always thought Microsoft was interested in selling to businesses. That changed when Windows Mobile 7 came out. The ability to directly sync a phone to Outlook contacts and calendars on my computer has ended. I don't want all my business contacts on the Hotmail cloud, so now my phone choices are Apple or Blackberry. So much for supporting businesses, at least on the mobile platform.
Yeah, I really, REALLY hate that as well. I've asked our Microsoft rep in Belgium about this and she said more people have complained, even business users. I hope this gets fixed in Mango but I'm not holding my breath.
Or you can just do that right now (as we are seeing happen in the market) with an iPad and the iPad Configuration Utility as well as with third-party apps.
@HMTK: The thin-client model failed in the past due to scalable issues on the server-side. Business does not use it in a big way and neither did large enterprises. RDT is useful in support scenario only and some sysadmin work and not much else. We see that the "lite-client" using the webserver and Internet scales very well and cheap to develop on. But does have security challenges. Tablets are your ideal lite-client terminals.
EVERYONE should just watch the Microsoft Build video keynote from yesterday. Theres so many ignorant comments here from people that know absolutely nothing.
One thing I would love to see, but I know it would be a small market, would be a tablet of this sort with a pressure sensitive stylus in addition to the capacitive input. It would also need to be a sRGB or better screen. aka Cintiq without needing a seperate computer.
Of course, the only market for this is artists and 3D modelers. There's only be a few thousand interested and fewer that could afford it. Most people do not want to have to keep up with a stylus.
They have demoed on Wednesday a device with both capacitive and resistive input sensors, so a finger wouldn't draw in an app while a pen would. Very intriguing stuff.
Dual capacitive and active digitizers is nothing new, Wacom pen compatible, Tablet PCs have had them for years. So does the Samsung demo unit they gave away 5000 of. They where around even before the iPad was showed. Nothing new there and Windows 8 just messes up with metro in that regard.
For those who've developed (or even been users of) warehouse software, tablet apps are very old hat. Very 1990, in fact. The problem for M$ is that its stable of apps for Windoze assumes a desktop environment. To some extent, that's true of even new apps; the insistence on soft keyboards is the tell. A tablet specific UI *requires* a tablet intelligent datastore. Most coders still treat data as records on tape, with keyed input.
A successful tablet OS/UI/app will work with pick-n-touch as the *only* interface. That means relational data back on the server, decomposed into orthogonal chunks, served up as needed. M$ doesn't have a clue.
I've downloaded the Developer preview version of Windows 8 and I have tried it. All I can say is that it is shit. It's unbelievable mess - half-desktop-half-touchscreen UI!!! I really wonder what MS is going to put on the shelves at the en. The current state is just a horrible mess. IT appears to me that MS doesn't know what they are doing.
Windows has always had a horribly designed UI and if they add these touchscreen elements it will become the utter crap!
Metro was not meant for the PC (at least one where a touch screen is not in use, like on POS systems). It's easy to turn off and then Win 8 looks almost identical to Win 7. The ribbon interface in Explorer is really the only major difference I have noticed so far.
But if Apple continues and succeeds in blocking any tablet maker from selling it's tablets around the world then you will not see any Windows 8 tablet, nor Intel x86 tablet, nor Android tablet so anything that you see here today will be banned in an all Apple no competition world.
If you want a x86 Windows 8 tablet that can be PC desktop like you will have to accept you will ALWAYS be minus -%25 CPU performance just for the sake of the AntiVirus software YOU WILL ABSOLUTELY need. It will always be a crappier experience then the Androd/iPad alternatives.
Sorry can't edit my posts, but seriously x86 tablets are really just Intels way of trying to keep a strangle hold of its CPU market and is going to be the absolute sucker technology choice for the narrow minded tech heads out there.
If you use a locked down App Store with no other way to install software on the tablet, then you only need to run AV on the App Store itself.
There is the occasional remote security exploit but for the most part it's when you allow people to install whatever they feel like that you get virus problems.
I really like the dock they have set up for it and it's an impressive move, especially with USB 3.0 but let's see what it has to offer. I don't think the iTampon can survive what's coming.
Microsoft has such a huge presence and vendor influence that any time they step into a certain segment, the competitors should be worried. While I personally don't understand the fascination with a Wintel tablet or phone, I can tell that quite a few people are desperate for one.
And in my experience, for every iFanboy I run across, there are easily 10 Windows fanboys.
Microsoft is almost always way behind the curve with just about every one of their products, but they have such a large "mental lock-in" with consumers and businesses so they really have no need to be anything better than mediocre. They don't have to draw anybody in... they just have to keep people from leaving the stables.
Ok, I have read all the comments up to now, excluding watching 2½ (2.5) hours of video. My thought is this. M$ already dominate the desktop hence WinTel. They use to have a large market share until WinMo5-6.5. Then they went downhill. They did the tablet thing, but the cpu's and batteries were not worth it, and the average joe was not interested back then due to price/performance.
Come now newer ARM architectures, other operating systems aka iOS, Android (linux), QNX/BB and now nearly dead webOS and the rising sales of tablets/ slates they want in.
With their name behind them, they will dominate sooner rather than later the tablet market and phone too.
Apple can NOT touch them, even IF the designs are similar due to that they are running MS!!! Please read crApples own statements in current lawsuits, that the vendors can sell M$ but not Android, since that is most of their fit. As for the form factor, they will find it harder with MS behind the makers due to conflicting / overlaping patents. Don't get me wrong, crApple will try...
M$ has already demoed a re-compile as mentioned earlier. Also, if the programmers followed strict guidelines, then their programmes can and will easy to re-compile to run from x86 to Arm code. Now if game developers used standard DX 9 calls, and not some 'work-arounds' or 'optimisations' for said gpu (aka AMD/Ati or nVidea) then there will not be that many headaches either.
On the other hand, also expect to see a few 'dual/multi' boot offerings too, that will be running Android/Win8 Arm either seperataly or concurrently.
Now, the ball is in crApples court, they WILL need to lower their prices & profit margins sooner rather than later to be competitive and have dual running machines that can run OS X & iOS! They will have similar fully fledged tablets too, just that we will have to wait and see them.
Now to just wait for Omap5 to start shipping from T.I., with a pico Projector and let the fun begin.
p.s. Indemnity notification: Most of the above is presumed to be speculation and no lawsuits will be entered in to or entertained ;-)
To add: MS sees the future as tablets/handsets and Clouds. Desktops will get more and more scarce while laptops replace desktops in workplaces and homes. So lets see what OS MS has for a tablet ?. Only Win8 there ain't a choice for them as WP7.5 is strictly for handsets and they had to make that stick or else they will have to buy some company like RIM. So they yet again tries to shoehorn Win7+launcher/shell into ARM. I am betting this will fail because of "tablets and Cloud" model. Primarily because the tablet landscape has gone past Version 2.0, now shooting for V3.0 in both hardware and software technologies.
MS betting on ARM for Win8 counts on the hope that the hardware will scale faster than Intel ever did (or wanted to). This might make it good enough but the price point has to be right as well. In which case, it is severely disadvantaged. The battle is innovation-speed vs price-point. The current leader is HoneyComb and IOS is not far behind. Of course Apple can cut the prices in a price war to hurt their competitors. That might buy them time. If a small company like Fusion Garage can ship a tablet for $299 with HoneyComb like OS functionality, then one can see a price war coming very soon on the tablet market.
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ssj4Gogeta - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
Hopefully, with Windows 8's launch, we'll start seeing more "open" tablet platforms, just like the desktop is today. You buy the hardware, and decide what software to run on it, what bootloader to use, etc. without having to resort to hacking.Samus - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
Ok...but why would you want to run anything but Windows 8? It's cross platform and Metro interface already put it ahead of any linux distribution (excluding Android, if you want to consider that a linux distro)Basically with Apple being proprietary, Palm currently in limbo, Symbian/Meego practically dead, and Microsofts announcement of no tablet plans for WinMo, you have two options in the tablet-world: Windows 8 and Android.
Windows 8 has numerous advantages over Android, but Android does have the Android Market with a ton of apps. It really depends on if you want to do real stuff on your tablet, or just want a toy running Android.
Windows 8 will allow you to run Windows PROGRAMS, which are far more useful than Android Apps. Quickbooks, custom SQL databases, 3DStudioMax, Adobe CS, the list goes on why Windows has already won the profitable business-platform.
People will remember back to iOS and Android tablets, those short-lived devices that pioneered the mass-consumer market adoption, but just couldn't do anything but play games, surf the web and check email.
Unless everything goes cloud-based (which it never will, an 'offline' mode will always be neccessary) then Windows wins by default by simply having programs such as those listed above.
Bob-o - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
> Ok...but why would you want to run anything but Windows 8? It's cross> platform and Metro interface already put it ahead of any linux distribution
> (excluding Android, if you want to consider that a linux distro)
Gosh, I can't imagine why. . . oh wait, got it - because things change? Because people keep developing new versions of software? Because my needs are not your needs? Try not to be so narrow-minded.
Xorg is improving support for touchscreen input. Various linux distros are working on new UI shells and toolkits to accommodate tablets. Who knows what next year may bring. Or the next.
LauRoman - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
Because Win8 does not support all ARMs and i'm not only talking here about single core 600mhz A8s but about higher freq ones too.Belard - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Doesn't matter... Win8 will run on current and future ARM CPUs.Remember, Metro software runs on it's own API and it requires all apps to run on ARM. With that, WinMobile8 will come out for phones and tablets and guess what happens? Instant powerful apps for tablets.
It's brilliant.
(typed on my iPad)
Lucian Armasu - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
How exactly? You do realize you won't have those "powerful apps" on Windows for ARM, right? And if they can be made for Windows for ARM later on - why couldn't they be made for iOS or Android, too?You keep talking about "powerful apps" on "Windows tablets". Well even on a 2h battery life Intel chip that supports all those apps, the experience will be extremely poor just as it has always been on Windows tablets, because those apps are not optimized for touch.
Lord Moldy butt - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Ever heard of Moorestown? x86 SoC designed by intel for smartphones and tablets. Since I havent read up too much on Windows 8 on tablets I'll reserve judgement on MS not allowing normal programs to run on the tabletversion, but bear in mind there are alternatives to the
ARM question.
blackrifle - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Do you actually believe the crap you type? 2h battery life Intel chip? Extremely poor experience? You think developers won't go back and modify legacy programs to provide touch support on W8? Yeah, nothing ever gets updated.You need to take it easy on the meth, buddy.
Rick83 - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
Most of the applications for Windows are written in one of the followig:Java
C/C++
.NET
I'd expect that compiling the latter two for Windows/ARM is going to be relatively easy once Visual Studio with platform support is out.
So stuff that is icc compiled, or features hand-optimized assembler will be harder to port, but that should be a minority. Also anything needing a certain hardware graphics support may not run on lesser devices - but that's nothing new.
So yes, software would have to be re-released for Windows/ARM or Windows/Multi , but if the Windows API is the same for ARM and x86, which should be the case, then there's really nothing to do in porting for 99% of the software than a quick recompile.
Performance will be another issue.
Lord Moldy butt - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Linux isnt an option IMO, it is still way too far behind the power curve compared to Windows or OSX for that matter. I do understand thatlinux is improving, but improving touchscreen input is a lousy kind of
rebuttal, and with so many distro's out there it lacks coherence in any
way. If the driver issue (which isnt really linux fault) was better handled
by companies that design PC components, it would more than likely be
more widely adopted as a primary OS.
augustofretes - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
Xorg is a piece of useless shit, there's a reason why informed people is so excited about seeing die soon.Shining Arcanine - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
Why would you want to run Windows in the first place?damianrobertjones - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
...Because it's the best operating system in the world with the most applications and games available TODAY.Zingam - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Then buy yourself a real laptop!!!What most of you demand is that your basic automobiles have wings and can fly like helicopters!
MS were always good at making even the fastest CPUs feel like from 10 years ago!
LifeByTheHorns - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
You do realize that the tablet version of Windows 8 won't run PC apps?http://informationweek.com/news/windows/operatings...
Fritzr - Sunday, September 18, 2011 - link
Windows on ARM will not support legacy x86 in the beginning. Windows on ARM *will* support Windows programs compiled for ARM. This includes desktop programs intended for ARM based netbooks/laptops and similar ARM based "complete" computers.There is nothing stopping the creation of an x86 translation layer that will allow x86 code to be executed on an ARM CPU. There will be a performance hit, but instruction set execution layers have been used in the past for various purposes. These are not emulators, they function as minimal interpreters executing the native code equivalent of the instruction used.
For programs and apps intended for Win8, it would be poor planning to target one ISA while ignoring the other. The devs who want to maximize income will compile binaries for all ISAs supported by the version of Windows they are targeting.
designerfx - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
okay, let's see:nobody wants to trust windows with ANYTHING.
Running windows on a tablet sounds nice until you realize that absolutely zero applications of the kind people *need* to run are not going to work right in tablets.
We're back to the problem of windows itself: it all relies on the third party to make things work right.
Windows is going to run SQL properly? Adobe CS properly? Quickbooks properly? Sure it will! Just not on a tablet.
Android has not been the first, it has been the leader, due to execution. That is entirely different from iOS.
jvillaro - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
ok... what?Your post didn't make any kind of sense
damianrobertjones - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
I'm sorry but i don't think that you realise machines like the Asus EP121 with it's core i5 cpu exist... or the whole load of convertible tablets....steven75 - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Yes, and how are those selling right now? They haven't sold in meaningful numbers since Tablet PC came out in 2002.Ask yourself "why is that?" What's the difference between Windows 8 in 2013 vs Tablet PC of 2002?
Dug - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
The Asus EP121 sold like hotcakes. It was order and wait because they didn't realize the demand.Really incredible machine and a great example of what can be done on that form factor.
mados123 - Sunday, September 18, 2011 - link
Your sense of "meaningful sales" is compared to the iPad. A $1,000 tablet obviously will not have comparable sales and it is directed towards the niche market. If you don't a unique need for that type of machine (which was ahead of it's time, hardware wise) then the majority of the public won't be buying in.As the hardware gets faster, lighter and less expensive, I want an OS that is ready and can do everything I want it to do with my setup - not an OS and company that tells me what I can do with their setup.
damianrobertjones - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
P.s. "nobody wants to trust windows with ANYTHING."What planet are you on? I'm not even going to say anything else about that statement above
Lord Moldy butt - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Execution of what? a still immature operating system? Theres a reason why Windows is STILL the desktop leader and why it is positioning it'snext OS to become the leader of the tablet interface. One OS that will
be on three diferrent platforms.
joelypolly - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
Except what you are saying has already been tried many times by Microsoft. Remember TabletPCs? They ran Windows + PROGRAMS as you said and they failed and they will continue to fail unless there are touch based apps that make sense.damianrobertjones - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
They failed due to a few things- price
- Public awareness
I've owned a whole load of tabs over the years so I was there and know the history (In the UK).
The oems were also lazy .
Owned: HP TC1100, Toshiba M400, Toshiba M750, HP TC4200, HP TC4400, Fujitsu Tab, Latitude XT & XT2, Acer 1820ptz, Archos 9, Samsung Q1 ultra, Sony VGN-UX1XN, Viewsonic Viewpad 10, Asus R2h, HP 2740p, HP TM2-1050ea, Asus EP121, another HP TM2-2050ea, two Acer W500
B3an - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
The pre-beta of Win 8 released yesterday is for this. So developers can make Win 8 touch apps for the new Win 8 store a full year ahead of release. There will be LOADS of apps by then. This is Windows, not some random new OS no ones heard of that may or may not do well.Exodite - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
The need for backwards compatibility on a touch-based tablet device is rather minimal, especially once you consider that developers will have to adopt new development tools to produce native metro applications and then recompile to allow those to run on ARM as well.B3an - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
No. Devs dont have to do learn anything new. They can use pretty much any current Windows programming language to make Metro apps. And use the usual Visual Studio to do it. At the Build conference yesterday MS showed an app converted to metro in a matter of minutes, it was all done live.It's NOTHING like other tablet platforms where you have to learn a whole ton of new stuff. Making Metro apps is stupid easy, you can even use HTML5/JS to do it and it will automatically be hardware accelerated.
kmmatney - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
My guess is that not all programs will work - at least I don't think 3DStudioMax would work on an ARM processor. Running x86 programs on an ARM will probably require some sort of emulation layer, which will slow things down.nafhan - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
"Windows 8 will allow you to run Windows PROGRAMS"Careful there... Windows 8 ON X86 will allow you to run Windows programs. My understanding is that the ARM version of Windows 8 (the version with only the Metro interface) will only run Windows 8 programs. That is, no legacy mode on ARM.
Anyway, Win 8 plus a Z-01 successor sounds pretty awesome.
sviola - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
You are right, but any Windows program develped using .NET can be easily "recompiled" to run on arm.UrQuan3 - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
I hope so, I was very happy to find that Visual Studio has simplified 64-bit programing to the point that all you do is change a drop-down from 'x86' to 'x64' and poof, it's 64-bit, optimizations and everything. (assuming you've written nutral code)Make something that simple for ARM development and we may even see games shipped for both.
steven75 - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
"Windows 8 will allow you to run Windows PROGRAMS, which are far more useful than Android Apps. Quickbooks, custom SQL databases, 3DStudioMax, Adobe CS, the list goes on why Windows has already won the profitable business-platform."Yet NONE of those apps will run on ARM, which is what Windows 8 tablets will be using.
Unless you pay $1,500 for x86, but in that case, why not just buy a Windows Tablet PC today?
Fritzr - Sunday, September 18, 2011 - link
So you've already checked in with those publishers and verified their refusal to develop Windows on ARM applications?You are correct though ... no Win7 code will run on Win8 for ARM. Are you ready to back up your conclusion that these companies do not plan to sell native Win8 sortware?
Gnarr - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
I have spent the last two days running the Win8 DevPrev and I must say that I'm not as impressed as I thought I would be. I really love Win7, but 8 just failed to impress me.I still like Ubuntu 11's approach more than Windows8 with metro.
Gnarr - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
and of course I know that this is a pre beta and that it will improve (probably) alot, but this release just doesn't cut it for me.soliozuz - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
I think he means more of having the choice to run what you want as opposed to running something entirely different.Pirks - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
"you have three options in the tablet-world: Windows 8, Android and Playbook"Fixed for you
fteoath64 - Saturday, September 17, 2011 - link
Only Win8 and Android for tablets ?. Not quite since we have no idea what the battery life is on the same tablet for Win8. I would not hold up much for it as it will likely 50%-60% LESS battery life, this would relegate it to much bigger tablets (11inch and above). All of which are way too big and way too heavy. A lightweight 9-10 incher is pretty much the norm now and with 2X or more performance with similar battery life, Android will lead the pack for sure. Yeah, iPads will lead parallel track until such time as Android becomes way more capable than it. The quad-core A9s will make this difference.mados123 - Sunday, September 18, 2011 - link
Excellent summary of why Windows 8 makes sense for those looking for a more robust, fully functional tablet - especially considering the respective hardware and its performance will continually go up as the electronics get more miniaturized.rdamiani - Thursday, September 22, 2011 - link
Microsoft has been trying to sell tablets based on all those strengths for something like 20+ years, and the market has stayed away in droves. The first version was actually built on Windows 3.1 and was called Windows for Pen Computing (or something like that). It had handwriting recognition and an on-screen keyboard.If you want to see why the ability to run Quickbooks (for example) on a tablet is not at all compelling, use a remote desktop app like Jump on an iPad to control Quickbooks running on a Windows computer. The limitations of that approach become apparent really quickly.
trip1ex - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Yeah open like we have today where MS controls 90%+ of the desktop market.soliozuz - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
I know right, hopefully we'll get some movement finally! I am so sick of jailbreaking my iPhone!aegisofrime - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
I'm still not getting the point of Windows 8 on ARM. AFAIK, you can't run x86 programs on that right? That's one big reason for running Windows out of the window (pun intended). Why not extend WP7 to tablets, if that is what Microsoft is after?dacramer - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
Windows 8 runs WP7 apps. So instead of crippling a tablet with a phone OS, why not make it more powerful with a full featured OS? This is fine so long as the full featured OS is resource efficient enough; which is what Microsoft seems to be going for with Win8.Microsoft is going a different direction with tablets than Apple which I think is a sweet move.
aegisofrime - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
It does? Well, that changes everything then. Thanks for the info :)jvillaro - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Not only that, if you make programs for the .NET framework (which by now is very common) it would very easy to use on ARM. You would basically just have to wait for MS to make the ARM version .NET framework (I don't know if there would be a recompile required). It would be stupid if they didn't come out with it already. Same thing with Silverlight.Oh, and I think it should be similar with JAVA. You would just need a ARM version of the virtual machine for Windows 8 and many straight up JAVA programs should work.
jwcalla - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
What are the differences between a "phone OS" and a "full-featured OS" that you're alluding to here?Snotling - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
probably things like access to the file system PnP peripherals...Going for the full OS even on ARM makes sense for MS. OK, the ARM version probably won't have 3DSMax version available or Photoshop and many other 1st tier software that's not Microsoft but you can bet that MS will have a full office suite for ARM W8 and that beats pretty much anything you have now or can expect from Android and iOS in the near future.
Lucian Armasu - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Whether Windows 8 will "succeed" or not, one thing is clear. Windows will not be the dominant OS in the market anymore. Considering that, Microsoft would be smart to at least save half of their revenue, by porting Office to iOS and Android. At least that way they ensure the survival of Office as Windows goes down.Lord Moldy butt - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Lol "as windows goes down" not gonna happen my friend, just because people like Tabs, doesnt mean the PC is going the way of the dodo. x86 for tablets and smartphones has alreadybeen developed by intel. Gotta love droid and iOS fanboys.
blackrifle - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
You drank the tablet koolaid and you have obviously never worked in a corporate environment.I had no idea iOS and Android dominates half the PC market. Thanks for your brilliant insight.
AmdInside - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
Better power management, consumes less power, less legacy code, put an end to Intel monopoly in x86 world, cheaper, etc.LostPassword - Wednesday, September 14, 2011 - link
put some more usb ports in please. a separate dock with only one usb port? wtfjvillaro - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
We're a long way from it being released...piiman - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
And its Flat, black, is a rectangle and look like it has only one button. So It looks like Apple will be suing them soon to prevent it from reaching the market place.damianrobertjones - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
There will also be USB ports on the machineExodite - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
I'm personally very happy to see full-sized HDMI ports brought to the table. I always felt those are slim enough to be adopted by such devices anyway and being able to eschew adapter and the like completely is obviously ideal.Aries1470 - Saturday, September 17, 2011 - link
Umm... you do know that there are cables of mini and micro cables to full size on the other end.The otehr reason is that physically, they use more space - height wise, so if you want a slim tablet, then normal size hdmi will not cut it. Same as normal size USB ports ;-)
HMTK - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Lots of shortsighted people here. Microsoft is primarily interested in selling to businesses. That's why past Windows tablets "failed" and why Windows Mobile was "not as good" as other smartphone platforms. Windows 8 on something else than x86 makes a lot of sense. It'll be manageable using standard tools like Group Policy. If you can't run x86 software on it you will probably be able to connect to a Remote Desktop Server, Citrix Xenapp or some VDI solution which WILL be able to run said software even on an underpowered tablet.I just don't like the widescreen format. There Apple has chosen wisely with a 4:3 format.
silverblue - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Perhaps, and they'll sue you if you try to use it. ;)HMTK - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Damn. How could I forget that!roybob - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
I, too, always thought Microsoft was interested in selling to businesses. That changed when Windows Mobile 7 came out. The ability to directly sync a phone to Outlook contacts and calendars on my computer has ended. I don't want all my business contacts on the Hotmail cloud, so now my phone choices are Apple or Blackberry. So much for supporting businesses, at least on the mobile platform.HMTK - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Yeah, I really, REALLY hate that as well. I've asked our Microsoft rep in Belgium about this and she said more people have complained, even business users. I hope this gets fixed in Mango but I'm not holding my breath.Cloud sometimes sucks.
Dug - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
It's reported that Mango does change that. There were numerous complaints.steven75 - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Or you can just do that right now (as we are seeing happen in the market) with an iPad and the iPad Configuration Utility as well as with third-party apps.Remote Desktop and Citrix on on the iPad TODAY.
fteoath64 - Sunday, September 18, 2011 - link
@HMTK: The thin-client model failed in the past due to scalable issues on the server-side. Business does not use it in a big way and neither did large enterprises. RDT is useful in support scenario only and some sysadmin work and not much else. We see that the "lite-client" using the webserver and Internet scales very well and cheap to develop on. But does have security challenges. Tablets are your ideal lite-client terminals.damianrobertjones - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Why oh why can't anyone simply say that it's the Samsung 7 Slate is beyond me?B3an - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
EVERYONE should just watch the Microsoft Build video keynote from yesterday. Theres so many ignorant comments here from people that know absolutely nothing.http://channel9.msdn.com/events/BUILD/BUILD2011/KE...
Many Win 8 things will be explained if you just watch it.
damianrobertjones - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
But people would prefer to go on second hand information :)I loved it when the iPad first hit and EVERYONE had something to say about Windows 7 (On tablets) yet next to no-one had actually used a product...
UrQuan3 - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
One thing I would love to see, but I know it would be a small market, would be a tablet of this sort with a pressure sensitive stylus in addition to the capacitive input. It would also need to be a sRGB or better screen. aka Cintiq without needing a seperate computer.Of course, the only market for this is artists and 3D modelers. There's only be a few thousand interested and fewer that could afford it. Most people do not want to have to keep up with a stylus.
pavlindrom - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
They have demoed on Wednesday a device with both capacitive and resistive input sensors, so a finger wouldn't draw in an app while a pen would. Very intriguing stuff.Penti - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
Dual capacitive and active digitizers is nothing new, Wacom pen compatible, Tablet PCs have had them for years. So does the Samsung demo unit they gave away 5000 of. They where around even before the iPad was showed. Nothing new there and Windows 8 just messes up with metro in that regard.FunBunny2 - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
For those who've developed (or even been users of) warehouse software, tablet apps are very old hat. Very 1990, in fact. The problem for M$ is that its stable of apps for Windoze assumes a desktop environment. To some extent, that's true of even new apps; the insistence on soft keyboards is the tell. A tablet specific UI *requires* a tablet intelligent datastore. Most coders still treat data as records on tape, with keyed input.A successful tablet OS/UI/app will work with pick-n-touch as the *only* interface. That means relational data back on the server, decomposed into orthogonal chunks, served up as needed. M$ doesn't have a clue.
tommo123 - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
what about intel powered? i want a windows tablet but with the ability to run current programs.Belard - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
They showed that on this article and in recent other ones... Did you not read the article?They showed AMD and intel tablets running x86.
Lord Moldy butt - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Yeah, no kidding. Anand had this to say......http://www.anandtech.com/show/3696/intel-unveils-m...Zingam - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
I've downloaded the Developer preview version of Windows 8 and I have tried it. All I can say is that it is shit. It's unbelievable mess - half-desktop-half-touchscreen UI!!!I really wonder what MS is going to put on the shelves at the en. The current state is just a horrible mess. IT appears to me that MS doesn't know what they are doing.
Windows has always had a horribly designed UI and if they add these touchscreen elements it will become the utter crap!
extremepcs - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Metro was not meant for the PC (at least one where a touch screen is not in use, like on POS systems). It's easy to turn off and then Win 8 looks almost identical to Win 7. The ribbon interface in Explorer is really the only major difference I have noticed so far.extremepcs - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
Oops, I just noticed the ribbon interface goes away when you disable Metro. I had not opened explorer since I disabled it.Penti - Saturday, September 17, 2011 - link
No not necessarily, you can have it enabled the same time as you have disabled Metro, just check around for the tools/configs. Not a problem.RW - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
But if Apple continues and succeeds in blocking any tablet maker from selling it's tablets around the world then you will not see any Windows 8 tablet, nor Intel x86 tablet, nor Android tablet so anything that you see here today will be banned in an all Apple no competition world.Lord Moldy butt - Thursday, September 15, 2011 - link
I highly doubt Apple will mess with MS. They may be competitors, but they are not stupid.thebeastie - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
If you want a x86 Windows 8 tablet that can be PC desktop like you will have to accept you will ALWAYS be minus -%25 CPU performance just for the sake of the AntiVirus software YOU WILL ABSOLUTELY need. It will always be a crappier experience then the Androd/iPad alternatives.thebeastie - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
And -%25 on battery at least. Antivirus tools are very power intensive.thebeastie - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
Sorry can't edit my posts, but seriously x86 tablets are really just Intels way of trying to keep a strangle hold of its CPU market and is going to be the absolute sucker technology choice for the narrow minded tech heads out there.Zan Lynx - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
If you use a locked down App Store with no other way to install software on the tablet, then you only need to run AV on the App Store itself.There is the occasional remote security exploit but for the most part it's when you allow people to install whatever they feel like that you get virus problems.
soliozuz - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
I really like the dock they have set up for it and it's an impressive move, especially with USB 3.0 but let's see what it has to offer. I don't think the iTampon can survive what's coming.jwcalla - Friday, September 16, 2011 - link
Microsoft has such a huge presence and vendor influence that any time they step into a certain segment, the competitors should be worried. While I personally don't understand the fascination with a Wintel tablet or phone, I can tell that quite a few people are desperate for one.And in my experience, for every iFanboy I run across, there are easily 10 Windows fanboys.
Microsoft is almost always way behind the curve with just about every one of their products, but they have such a large "mental lock-in" with consumers and businesses so they really have no need to be anything better than mediocre. They don't have to draw anybody in... they just have to keep people from leaving the stables.
Aries1470 - Saturday, September 17, 2011 - link
Ok, I have read all the comments up to now, excluding watching 2½ (2.5) hours of video.My thought is this. M$ already dominate the desktop hence WinTel. They use to have a large market share until WinMo5-6.5. Then they went downhill. They did the tablet thing, but the cpu's and batteries were not worth it, and the average joe was not interested back then due to price/performance.
Come now newer ARM architectures, other operating systems aka iOS, Android (linux), QNX/BB and now nearly dead webOS and the rising sales of tablets/ slates they want in.
With their name behind them, they will dominate sooner rather than later the tablet market and phone too.
Apple can NOT touch them, even IF the designs are similar due to that they are running MS!!! Please read crApples own statements in current lawsuits, that the vendors can sell M$ but not Android, since that is most of their fit. As for the form factor, they will find it harder with MS behind the makers due to conflicting / overlaping patents. Don't get me wrong, crApple will try...
M$ has already demoed a re-compile as mentioned earlier. Also, if the programmers followed strict guidelines, then their programmes can and will easy to re-compile to run from x86 to Arm code. Now if game developers used standard DX 9 calls, and not some 'work-arounds' or 'optimisations' for said gpu (aka AMD/Ati or nVidea) then there will not be that many headaches either.
On the other hand, also expect to see a few 'dual/multi' boot offerings too, that will be running Android/Win8 Arm either seperataly or concurrently.
Now, the ball is in crApples court, they WILL need to lower their prices & profit margins sooner rather than later to be competitive and have dual running machines that can run OS X & iOS! They will have similar fully fledged tablets too, just that we will have to wait and see them.
Now to just wait for Omap5 to start shipping from T.I., with a pico Projector and let the fun begin.
p.s. Indemnity notification: Most of the above is presumed to be speculation and no lawsuits will be entered in to or entertained ;-)
fteoath64 - Sunday, September 18, 2011 - link
To add: MS sees the future as tablets/handsets and Clouds. Desktops will get more and more scarce while laptops replace desktops in workplaces and homes. So lets see what OS MS has for a tablet ?. Only Win8 there ain't a choice for them as WP7.5 is strictly for handsets and they had to make that stick or else they will have to buy some company like RIM.So they yet again tries to shoehorn Win7+launcher/shell into ARM. I am betting this will fail because of "tablets and Cloud" model. Primarily because the tablet landscape has gone past Version 2.0, now shooting for V3.0 in both hardware and software technologies.
MS betting on ARM for Win8 counts on the hope that the hardware will scale faster than Intel ever did (or wanted to). This might make it good enough but the price point has to be right as well. In which case, it is severely disadvantaged. The battle is innovation-speed vs price-point. The current leader is HoneyComb and IOS is not far behind. Of course Apple can cut the prices in a price war to hurt their competitors. That might buy them time.
If a small company like Fusion Garage can ship a tablet for $299 with HoneyComb like OS functionality, then one can see a price war coming very soon on the tablet market.