Seems like the "bus" speed has increased, so hopefully its getting more memory bandwidth. That would probably cause a more noticeable speed increase than running at faster clocks on the same old bus. Remember, these are only single channel chips. Still, I'd like to have seen 1.8ghz or more by now. Maybe the current CPU isn't designed to go much faster, and binning is what is making this line so profitable.
Indeed. One of the pitfalls with IGP's is memory bandwidth... Increase that and you increase IGP performance to. :) A move from DDR1333 memory to 1600mhz should have a noticeable effect on performance in non-CPU bound scenarios.
I wouldn't mind seeing Anandtech do an article to see how IGP's scale with different system memory speeds, would be rather interesting to say the least.
A small number jump like what your suggesting usually means an increase in clockspeed only but since they added a new feature i guess they would want to differentiate it a little bit more
exactly... I've wondered why should one go with one of these things if it's actually cheaper (or just about the same price) to put together an Athlon II X2 system that can run circles around this and be mercilessly overclocked.
A 45W Athlon II would probably get a lot closer to Brazos's power consumption. And after some further undervolting you might get marginally close to Brazos while still running circles around it.
Actually, a Core i3 2100T would be a lot closer, and that's without even fiddling with manual undervolting. I don't think you can come that close to Brazos in power draw with any desktop Athlon II, undervolted or not. Besides, Brazos includes the graphics in the 18W. However much you undervolt an Athlon II, the chipset's integrated graphics will still draw power.
Regarding the prices, Brazos seems to me a better value than Intel Atom for price/performance. The lowest priced dual core Atom with ION (closest to Brazos in performance) is $150 at Newegg. The lowest priced Brazos is $100.
Yes, but even then... these boards are OVERPRICED. And you can achieve pretty much the same results with an undervolted Athlon II X2. Brazos is neat, there's not denying that, but prices need to come down, a lot.
You can NOT achieve "pretty much the same results" in power draw for the platform (CPU+mobo) no matter how much you underclock/undervolt a desktop Athlon II.
Also, you can get Brazos for $100. Not too common to be able to score an AMD Athlon II with motherboard for less than that, let alone a board that will let you undervolt since those are usually overclockable motherboards and not the cheap ones.
it really depends what you're looking for. I just replaced my X2+4850 with an E-350. What I gained: - silence, the thing is fully passive - room, clutter and looks, a mini-itx tucked behind a screen is much more discreet than a Silverstone micro-atx rig - simplicity. I went for the Asus board that has everything (wifi, bluetooth) - money. the board was 150 euros. a mini-itx board (with IGP) + low-power CPU is about 130+80 = 210 euros (Intel) What I lost: - recent games - room for expansion/upgrades What stayed the same: - dual screen with full screen SD video on one side, office/net on the other - apart in games, I see no performance difference. I don't tax my system much, though.
I may yet change my mind about needing a vidcard, in which case I'll go the mini-itx in a silverstone case route, but for now I do not miss recent games.
The AMD's current approach of increasing clocks while keeping the same TDP relying to mature/more advanced manufacturing process is pretty much what Intel did when they introduced Pentium M Banias/Dothan. It certainly pays off as it balance greatly the performance/power consumption ratio, but it won't be a performance monster though it is doing very well compared to Intel Particle, I mean, Atom.
I'd love a Brazos part in my HTPC, but E-350 can't ensure a smooth H264 1080i viewing. Will 450 be up to the task? I suppose the GPU clocks would have to raise some 30% to gain full deinterlacing support.
I wonder how the lowest dual core llano part will perform in this regard and I also hope that there will be a <= 35W part.
On the side note: Is it possible to have one specific page for all HTPC CPU / APU / GPU reviews that would only deal with the worst possible scenario a HTPC chip has to deal with: 1080i H264 playback on primary display while serving two displays - the other display being the HTPC chasis integrated LCD 1024x768 res. It doesn't matter what the secondary display shows, just that the chip has to actually deal with the burden of serving it. I think a good analysis with a "conclusion" stating the higest passable bitrate would add good value to such articles.
The page linked only deals with progressive content. The AT brazos review (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4134/the-brazos-revi... specifically states that the chip fails deinterlacing test. I have specifically inquired in the MediaPortal forums and got a confirmation that the chip can in fact process 1080i, but the "test" was a bit off (just one stream, just a quick test) so I still lack the data necessary to draw any definite conclusions about actual capabilities.
Who uses Mediaportal? 5 people? HTPC market is dominated by Windows Media Center and its LIMITATIONS which I don't consider LIMITATIONS as I live within the boundaries set by the operating system and the media it supports.
Zacate will do 1080i, Anandtech didn't hook up a HDTV Tuner and I consider that a FAIL because how many 1080i files are actually out there? Almost NONE and by the way HD4200 on this laptop plays 1080i without any issues (Top Gear Polar Special) so I don't see how Zacate fails this test which is just that a test, in reality everybody on the AVS forums with various versions of the APU can play 1080i without any problems.
Too many people using this Anandtech story to ding AMD and opt for Intel hardware which cost x2 as much and only has a performance edge when being used as a desktop.
Everybody wants the Ilano and that's great, but again its will use more power while running faster in a desktop configuration but will not be better in a HTPC environment UNLESS you have a 3D screen and I don't, won't get one either, I am not missing anything.
A return of gimmick from the 1950's and 1960's. It returns every decade or so when people in the media think we've forgotten about it. Its cheap for panel makers to include it, but its not reason to pay a premium for it and call me when you can watch it without any sort of glasses.
Just because you don't like MP it doesn't mean it's the same with everybody else. I for instance chose it over WMC for its ability to run my UDP IPTV which is the source of all my interlaced content. Of course my BDs aren't interlaced, I most definitely don't need deinterlacing for that, do I? But as described above, there are other sources of video material. And not only pirated sources at that.
So you see, you make assumptions that everyone in the world has the same needs as you and that they are idiots because they want something other than what you chose for yourself. I did try WMC and didn't like it. Then after trying 10 more, I settled for MP because it gave me the least problems. You are then wrong again about prices AMD vs Intel. Just because AMD is cheaper where you live, this doesn't hold true everywhere. I can get same bang for buck system from either over here. Doesn't hold true for all configurations, but it does for those that matter to me. Yet again you scoof at people wanting llano (myself included) just because the E-350 works for you and the rest of us are waiting for something that will finally work for what we have to work with. Sure, it wil take more power, that's why I asked about E-450 deinterlacing - I said in that first post I preferred it over llano exactly for its power usage. And then finally I assume you're talking about 3D which you would put out of misery I suppose. Well, I suppose you'd be just fine with NTSC resolution. After all if it was good for so many years, why the hell do we need full HD then? Or even Quad HD? That one surely is a pathetic gimmic if you ever saw one, right?
I think a dual channel memory interface would make a large difference to the IGP performance as well as reduce some of the stress on the Bobcat cores. I doubt it's on the cards, though.
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LungingAtThePope - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
E-450 seems a little optimistic, wouldnt E-355 be a bit more fitting?MonkeyPaw - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
Seems like the "bus" speed has increased, so hopefully its getting more memory bandwidth. That would probably cause a more noticeable speed increase than running at faster clocks on the same old bus. Remember, these are only single channel chips. Still, I'd like to have seen 1.8ghz or more by now. Maybe the current CPU isn't designed to go much faster, and binning is what is making this line so profitable.StevoLincolnite - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
Indeed.One of the pitfalls with IGP's is memory bandwidth... Increase that and you increase IGP performance to. :)
A move from DDR1333 memory to 1600mhz should have a noticeable effect on performance in non-CPU bound scenarios.
I wouldn't mind seeing Anandtech do an article to see how IGP's scale with different system memory speeds, would be rather interesting to say the least.
GullLars - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
I second this request for memory speed (and timings?) effect on IGP performance.zebrax2 - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
A small number jump like what your suggesting usually means an increase in clockspeed only but since they added a new feature i guess they would want to differentiate it a little bit moreShadowmaster625 - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
While you're there can you ask those guys why we're still paying over $100 for what looks like about $60 in parts?chamucost20 - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
exactly... I've wondered why should one go with one of these things if it's actually cheaper (or just about the same price) to put together an Athlon II X2 system that can run circles around this and be mercilessly overclocked.MarcLeFou - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
I was under the impression this was mainly a low power consumption part (aka extremely low power draw).asmoma - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
http://www.fudzilla.com/images/stories/2011/Januar...A board like this could not be done with a athlon II x2.
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/intelpinetrail_...
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/intelpinetrail_...
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/intelpinetrail_...
jonup - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
A 45W Athlon II would probably get a lot closer to Brazos's power consumption. And after some further undervolting you might get marginally close to Brazos while still running circles around it.Zap - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
Actually, a Core i3 2100T would be a lot closer, and that's without even fiddling with manual undervolting. I don't think you can come that close to Brazos in power draw with any desktop Athlon II, undervolted or not. Besides, Brazos includes the graphics in the 18W. However much you undervolt an Athlon II, the chipset's integrated graphics will still draw power.Regarding the prices, Brazos seems to me a better value than Intel Atom for price/performance. The lowest priced dual core Atom with ION (closest to Brazos in performance) is $150 at Newegg. The lowest priced Brazos is $100.
chamucost20 - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
Yes, but even then... these boards are OVERPRICED. And you can achieve pretty much the same results with an undervolted Athlon II X2. Brazos is neat, there's not denying that, but prices need to come down, a lot.Zap - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
You can NOT achieve "pretty much the same results" in power draw for the platform (CPU+mobo) no matter how much you underclock/undervolt a desktop Athlon II.Also, you can get Brazos for $100. Not too common to be able to score an AMD Athlon II with motherboard for less than that, let alone a board that will let you undervolt since those are usually overclockable motherboards and not the cheap ones.
StormyParis - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
it really depends what you're looking for. I just replaced my X2+4850 with an E-350. What I gained:- silence, the thing is fully passive
- room, clutter and looks, a mini-itx tucked behind a screen is much more discreet than a Silverstone micro-atx rig
- simplicity. I went for the Asus board that has everything (wifi, bluetooth)
- money. the board was 150 euros. a mini-itx board (with IGP) + low-power CPU is about 130+80 = 210 euros (Intel)
What I lost:
- recent games
- room for expansion/upgrades
What stayed the same:
- dual screen with full screen SD video on one side, office/net on the other
- apart in games, I see no performance difference. I don't tax my system much, though.
I may yet change my mind about needing a vidcard, in which case I'll go the mini-itx in a silverstone case route, but for now I do not miss recent games.
zodiacfml - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
Exactly. Lower prices won't hurt though.mino - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
There is currently a HUGE shortage of Brazos parts ... that alone would suggest they are anything but overpriced. Quite the opposite.My 3 cents.
burntham77 - Friday, June 3, 2011 - link
It comes down to power draw. I am considering replacing my 45 watt Athlon X2 with Brazos.asmoma - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
E-350 does not support 133 MHz ram. Only one channel 1066 MHz. Other sites claims 1333 MHz support for E-450.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_Fusion_mi...
Goty - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
It may not "support" it, but it works just fine.rwpritchett - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
^My E-350 runs just fine with 1333MHz sticks running at 1333MHz speed.evolucion8 - Wednesday, June 1, 2011 - link
The AMD's current approach of increasing clocks while keeping the same TDP relying to mature/more advanced manufacturing process is pretty much what Intel did when they introduced Pentium M Banias/Dothan. It certainly pays off as it balance greatly the performance/power consumption ratio, but it won't be a performance monster though it is doing very well compared to Intel Particle, I mean, Atom.mino - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
Yeah. fo sure it is the same. It is the semiconductor industry approach :D.velis - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
I'd love a Brazos part in my HTPC, but E-350 can't ensure a smooth H264 1080i viewing. Will 450 be up to the task? I suppose the GPU clocks would have to raise some 30% to gain full deinterlacing support.I wonder how the lowest dual core llano part will perform in this regard and I also hope that there will be a <= 35W part.
On the side note: Is it possible to have one specific page for all HTPC CPU / APU / GPU reviews that would only deal with the worst possible scenario a HTPC chip has to deal with: 1080i H264 playback on primary display while serving two displays - the other display being the HTPC chasis integrated LCD 1024x768 res. It doesn't matter what the secondary display shows, just that the chip has to actually deal with the burden of serving it.
I think a good analysis with a "conclusion" stating the higest passable bitrate would add good value to such articles.
parkerm35 - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
http://techreport.com/articles.x/20401/18parkerm35 - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
Sorry about the double post. If you look at the site above you will see the E-350 is more than capable of running any video playback.velis - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
The page linked only deals with progressive content.The AT brazos review (http://www.anandtech.com/show/4134/the-brazos-revi... specifically states that the chip fails deinterlacing test.
I have specifically inquired in the MediaPortal forums and got a confirmation that the chip can in fact process 1080i, but the "test" was a bit off (just one stream, just a quick test) so I still lack the data necessary to draw any definite conclusions about actual capabilities.
djfourmoney - Friday, June 3, 2011 - link
Who uses Mediaportal? 5 people? HTPC market is dominated by Windows Media Center and its LIMITATIONS which I don't consider LIMITATIONS as I live within the boundaries set by the operating system and the media it supports.Zacate will do 1080i, Anandtech didn't hook up a HDTV Tuner and I consider that a FAIL because how many 1080i files are actually out there? Almost NONE and by the way HD4200 on this laptop plays 1080i without any issues (Top Gear Polar Special) so I don't see how Zacate fails this test which is just that a test, in reality everybody on the AVS forums with various versions of the APU can play 1080i without any problems.
Too many people using this Anandtech story to ding AMD and opt for Intel hardware which cost x2 as much and only has a performance edge when being used as a desktop.
Everybody wants the Ilano and that's great, but again its will use more power while running faster in a desktop configuration but will not be better in a HTPC environment UNLESS you have a 3D screen and I don't, won't get one either, I am not missing anything.
A return of gimmick from the 1950's and 1960's. It returns every decade or so when people in the media think we've forgotten about it. Its cheap for panel makers to include it, but its not reason to pay a premium for it and call me when you can watch it without any sort of glasses.
velis - Monday, June 6, 2011 - link
Just because you don't like MP it doesn't mean it's the same with everybody else.I for instance chose it over WMC for its ability to run my UDP IPTV which is the source of all my interlaced content. Of course my BDs aren't interlaced, I most definitely don't need deinterlacing for that, do I? But as described above, there are other sources of video material. And not only pirated sources at that.
So you see, you make assumptions that everyone in the world has the same needs as you and that they are idiots because they want something other than what you chose for yourself. I did try WMC and didn't like it. Then after trying 10 more, I settled for MP because it gave me the least problems.
You are then wrong again about prices AMD vs Intel. Just because AMD is cheaper where you live, this doesn't hold true everywhere. I can get same bang for buck system from either over here. Doesn't hold true for all configurations, but it does for those that matter to me.
Yet again you scoof at people wanting llano (myself included) just because the E-350 works for you and the rest of us are waiting for something that will finally work for what we have to work with. Sure, it wil take more power, that's why I asked about E-450 deinterlacing - I said in that first post I preferred it over llano exactly for its power usage.
And then finally I assume you're talking about 3D which you would put out of misery I suppose. Well, I suppose you'd be just fine with NTSC resolution. After all if it was good for so many years, why the hell do we need full HD then? Or even Quad HD? That one surely is a pathetic gimmic if you ever saw one, right?
Anyway, you didn't help...
slick121 - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
Good thought. I'm really excited to see what the lowest llano dual core can do.Seems that would be a great power/performance balance if it's 35w TDP.
HWgeek - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
http://i54.tinypic.com/jkkths.jpghttp://www.overclock.net/amd-cpus/987087-amd-e-350...
they can ship it at 1.8GHZ no prob!
silverblue - Thursday, June 2, 2011 - link
I think a dual channel memory interface would make a large difference to the IGP performance as well as reduce some of the stress on the Bobcat cores. I doubt it's on the cards, though.qqgoodhao - Sunday, July 17, 2011 - link
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