Thanks for the heads up, it honestly didn't cross our minds at all but now that it's been pointed out I can completely see the resemblance. Needless to say we've removed the offending image and I'd like to apologize to anyone who was offended.
If people want to jump to conclusions, let them. The swastika means many things, if you want to associate it with Nazis then go ahead, or you could associate it with the religion Jainsim, which it happens to be a symbol of. Your interpretaion of the image affects no one, there is no reason to make a big deal over it.
It is unfortunate that there is such an over-reaction to something like this. Besides, the swastika symbol is and has been used for many, many other purposes than representing Nazis:
The way the western world depicts adolf hitler, nazism and everything surrounding that part of history is far from reminding anyone not to make that mistake again, as the main message is "nazi evil, hitler evil, us good guys, us not like them".
Anyone ever wondered what difference there is between Gestapo and the Patriot Act ? - oh right it doesn't target jews so it's fine ... lol
Some of us have equipment closets dedicated to equipment using RF to communicate. Noise is definitely something most want to keep reduced but not a deal breaker for every person with a HTPC.
Not necessarily, there are air coolers that are absolutely quiet. Only the very low-end is available with passive, which might be fine for many people, but if you want the "best" out of your HTPC, that cards won't do anymore.
Look at the Gigabyte cards with the Windforce coolers, i don't hear a thing.
If I add up the string of numbers for the 6570, I get 193, not 197 like you have in the table. Then I see that the 430 also scores 193, and I compared the string of numbers for the 403 and the 6570, and they are identical. So why does it add up to 193 for the 430, but 197 for the 6570?
The 'Ferris Wheel' and 'Roller Coaster' Compression Artifacts scores were wrong in the table under the 6570. I have updated them (no change to the total score).
If I am running a Sandy Bridge system with Intel HD Graphics 3000, do these cards have any benefit over integrated graphics? What is Anandtech's HQV Benchmark score?
I tried searching for scores, but people say this is subjective and one reviewer may differ from another. One site says 196 and another in the low 100's. What does this reviewer say?
I recently built a HTPC with a core i5-2500k on a ASUS P8H67 EVO with a Ceton InfiniTV cable card. Note that the Intel driver is fundamentally flawed and will destroy a system if patched. See the Intel communities thread 20439 for more details.
Besides causing BSOD over HDMI output when patched, the stable versions have their own sets of bugs including a memory bleed when watching some premium content on HD channels that crashed WMC. Intel appears to have 1 part time developer working on this problem but every test river he puts out breaks more than it fixes. Watching the same, content with a system running a NVIDIA GPU and the memory bleed goes away.
In my opinion, second gen SB chips is just not ready for prime time in a fully loaded HTPC.
Again, sorry for the slip-up, and thanks for bringing it to our notice. Fixed it. Hopefully, the gallery pictures cleared up the confusion (particularly the Noise Reduction entry in the NVIDIA Control Panel)
Thanks for bringing it to our notice. When that page was being written (around 2 weeks back), the README indicated that the GT 520 was the only GPU supporting Feature Set D. We will let the article stand as-is, and I am sure readers perusing the comments will become aware of this new GPU.
So basically the app store's purpose is to attract submissions of ideas for features of their next OS, uncompensated of course. All the other crap/fart apps not worthy are approved and people make pennies of those.
A great review. Provides all the answers one could wish for and even gives some further hints. I sure hope you have something like this lined up for llano.
If I may suggest a couple or three things: Perhaps you should also mention reclock - it will solve most 23.976 and similar problems... It's not like many will detect that the video is running 1/24000th faster. Plus it's insanely easy to use. I understand you couldn't just post full blown images for space problems, but those thumbnails require too much work too. Is it possible to display a popup of sorts when one mouse-overs those thumbnails? Also a vertical line showing 60FPS in those DXVA tests would be great :)
What might have been a nice option is to see what sound levels the cards produced. Even it was only for the GT430 and the HD6570. I know that the decibels can differ between manufacturers but it would have been nice! For the rest a very nice detailed review between HTPC cards. I was deciding which card to buy so this helped a great deal! I was only looking between the HD6450 and the HD6570 but the GT430 is a better option than the HD6450.
I think I did not use the right word, as I meant the levels of decibel the fan of the cards produce and not the audio too and through speakers. All reviewed cards have a fan on them and since most of the HTPC setups are in the living room it would have been nice to know which of the cards are most silent.
Though we considered cards with fans in this review, we made it a point to note that the same configuration (GPU model + DRAM bus width + operating frequencies) can be obtained with passive cooling from other vendors.
For example, the 6570 has a passively cooled model from HIS with the same config and Zotac has a passively cooled 430 too. Other vendors have also demonstrated passively cooled models in Computex.
Firstly, a truly informative article. Very high quality.
The fact that none of AMD, Intel and Nvidia can lock onto to the correct frame rates is unforgiveable. It is not as though these frame rates have changed over the last 6 months. It should not be necessary to be an advanced HTPC user and delve into custom creation of frame rates.
I really hope that the representatives of AMD, Intel and NVidia are hanging their heads in shame at such basic errors - sadly I doubt they care.
The mistake is rather with Microsoft. Video playback speed should be adapted to the refresh rate of the grafx card. There is a software called Reclock doing that. Then, for example 23,996 Hz can be run with a monitor refresh rate of n times 24 Hz. (The same with audio, because bit-perfect transmission only works with synchronization.) In the end and for most sources, the RAMDAC needed only (multiples of) 24, 25 and 30 Hz. In any system, one of its parts should be the clock master, while the other parts serve.
... it'd be nice to see more use of Linux please. I realise there are a lack of "testing" and "evaluation" tools under Linux but that shouldn't prevent the testing of basic media needs. What's this about no bit streaming support under Linux? Boxee would disagree - as would:
along with XBMC's audioengine (involving work by the guy in the above link). Maybe Windows 8 will sort out the mess that is WMC and all the messing (or bypassing with MPC-HC) that is required to get it working solidly. But right now if you want something that approaches a plug and play media experience XBMC (and its off-spring Openelec) under Linux is a lot closer than Windows. Equally the more coverage such solutions get the more likely greater time will be spent fixing the remaining issues under the Linux OS - hello there Intel and AMD.
Finally there is a great move now - go look at AVS' fora for examples - away from large media center pc's to small, quiet (silent) systems. These don't require 300W or 500W power supplies and huge cases with twelve fans and fifty million led's. They are ITX based systems sitting in small ITX sized boxes running 65/80/90/120W PicoPSU's with much greater efficiency and thus lower power use/running costs/silence. Placing these discrete cards in such systems would be a nice test of these picopsu units - given the apparently low power draw shown in the articles (something I'm very interested in seeing right now given the poor support of Linux by Intel on Sandybridge - the GT430 would be a good interim solution for me).
TLDR: Please don't limit yourselves to Windows testing and ATX/mATX sized systems when writing HTPC articles
The issue with Linux HTPCs is the fact that there is a semblance of support from only NVIDIA.
Don't get me wrong! I am a huge Linux fan, and always prefer free / open-source software. But, from a video perspective, is there a multi-GPU platform similar to DXVA ? Every vendor has their own flavour (NVIDIA - VDPAU / Intel - VA-API / AMD - XvBA). From the audio side, it looks like the link you mention is the only avenue available for bitstreaming, and that too for NVIDIA GPUs only. I will keep close tabs on what is happening in this area, and when the time is right, I will definitely post a piece on Linux HTPCs, considering one card from each of the vendors.
As always it depends on what you want from an HTPC. For me I want to play Blu rays, stream HD movies from file server, watch and record TV and do some web browsing but in total silence (or as close to as possible).
For me ITX systems are the way to go using a 150W PICO-pSU but critical is that they have to work with appropriate IR remote (Logitech DiNovo looks interesting)
I am happy to use Linux or Windows but it just has to work
This kind of quality review is what made AnandTech a name to remember early on. I'm glad to see such thoroughness and well thought out presentation of information. Looking forward to more reviews by Ganesh.
Agreed, this is an excelent article. I tried cross referencing to the "Zotec Zbox" article from the 9th (I own an E-350) and the earlier benchmarking was useless. I already know the E-350 won't do full processing, but I wanted to know where it sits compared to these platforms that pull 3-10 times the power.
Think a 'software mode' might have been useful? An i5 could have done a fair amount of this processing without a hardware assist, saving the 70watts the cards were pulling and avoiding some of the integrated's compatability issues.
I dont get the video card focus in the realm of HTPC. It seems that software is a far more important piece of the picture than a video card. Windows media center and XBMC both work like crap, and/or are unacceptably slow and clunky when it comes to browsing media. I do NOT tolerate that kind of lag, especially on a 3 ghz quadcore with an ssd/hdd drive setup. I dont expect miracles when trying to browse through a gigabyte of media, but still it should be faster. And then there's audio sync problems that like to appear out of nowhere. But you'd never know any of these problems exist from reading these articles. Shrug.
I have found that VLC media player and windows explorer are the most reliable combination. But using windows explorer on an htpc is ugly and painful.
I think part of the problem is the degree to which there's news. A thorough review of Media Center might be warranted, the next time it changes, but was pretty thoroughly covered here (http://www.anandtech.com/show/2864/) and here (http://www.anandtech.com/show/2760). XBMC has a more frequent update cycle than Windows, and there's obviously interest so this might be an idea to explore further.
As far as the difficulties with each of these platforms, a Z68 platform and SRT might be the solution here. So the size of the files is not really the problem, it's that when you browse to a folder the user wants to be able to scroll around the list or grid and have all of the information pertinent to those files readily available. You don't want to scroll over to a file in your West Wing Season 5 folder and wait for the Title to load so you know whether it's the episode you were looking for, you want that information to be up the instant you scroll to it, or even better for it to be glanceable before you even start scrolling. In order to achieve this the OS's load all of the information for all of the files in the folder. So if you have a few dozen files in a folder that's the metadata for each files, the thumbnail preview and then the usual file system queries the OS would do anytime it accesses the drive. That can add up to a lot of small reads, and that leads to that big stall as you scoot around your media.
Now, the throw money at it solution is move to ALL SSD storage. But I've got 4TB of media and don't have that kind of money to throw at the problem. SRT should help though. If I recall, the metadata and thumbnail files are stored locally in the folder with the files, but since SRT caches the frequently accessed files, then for a system used exclusively for media the only thing that should populate the SSD cache is going to be these small reads that otherwise slow down your system.
I am suddenly overwhelmed with an urge to get my hands on a Z68 to try this out! And you are quite right that VLC and Windows Explorer are the most reliable programs for browsing and playing back media, but the price you pay for pretty is often performance.
As an exercise in "possibility thinking", I'd be interested in a sub-category of a complete "solar powered" desktop-format PC review. Designed (theoretically) for someone living in a remote area, off the electrical grid, yet still having internet via satellite, cell phone signal, or otherwise connected. Designed for ultra low power consumption, mostly dependent on solar and/or wind power produced on site. Yet maximal possible performance (under such power restrictions) for either: generic gaming desktop PC, and also for a HTPC. Using SSD's and/or laptop HD's for storage, and with an energy sipping CPU (dual-core Atom vs. Intel i330, for example), combined with either: on-CPU chip video or a "PCIe bus only" powered video card, and yet somewhat viable as a gaming PC or as a HTPC. Maybe even qualify for an article in Home Power magazine? http://homepower.com
Why? Running a 100 W PC of batteries is pretty pointless.
Just install FTTH and a powerline if you like to game or do other intensive tasks needing GPU-power, fast cpus or ridiculous amounts of memory (workstation type stuff). It would be the most efficient solution any way. You don't even need any power for any modems. You certainly can run a PC of battery power off grid, but why destroy your work with that. It would be hard to store much electrical power.
Otherwise you would pretty much had to get by with a low-powered laptop. No monitor.
Do the unabomber type guys need any gaming? If so they need to install a good damn power line or at least a diesel-generator. They don't have the money and skills to build energy storage and buy panels thats enough to power a modern home any way.
How about a short conclusion section for those who just use a Windows 7 box with a Ceton tuner card to watch hdtv in Windows Media Center? (i.e. will just be playing back WTV files recorded directly on the box)
What provides the best quality output?
What can stream better then stereo over HDMI? On my old 3400 ATI card it either streams the Dolby Digital directly (the computer doesn't do any processing of the audio) or can output stereo (doesn't think there can be more then 2 speakers connected)
The inability to create and scale custom resolutions within AMD graphics drivers is, for me, a deal-breaker that keeps me from even considering AMD graphics. It will also keep me from Llano, Trinity and future AMD Fusion APU's. I'll stay with NVidia as long as they keep allowing for custom resolutions.
My older eyes are grateful for the custom 1536 X 960 desktop resolution on my 24 inch 16:10 monitor. I couldn't create this resolution with AMD graphics drivers.
I wish there was a section dedicated to the silent stream bug. I have a GTX 470 hooked up to an Onkyo TX-SR805 and this issue is driving me insane. For instance, does this issue only plague certain cards or do all nVidia suffer from it? I was hoping the latest WHQL driver (275.33) would fix this, but sadly, no. Otherwise, the article was amazing and I'll definitely have to check out LAV Splitter.
The problem with the silent stream bug is that one driver version has it, the next one doesn't and then the next release brings it back. It is hard to pinpoint where the issue is.
Amongst our candidates, even with the same driver release, the GT 520 had the bug, but the GT 430 didn't. I am quite confident that the GT 520 issue will get resolved in a future update, but then, I can just hope that it doesn't break the GT 430.
here is how I understand the refresh rate issue. It does not matter weather it is 0.005 Hz off. You can't calculate frame drops/repeats from that. In DirectShow, frames are scheduled with the graph reference clock. So the real problem is how much the clock which the VSync is based on and the reference clock in the DirectShow graph drift from each other. And here comes ReClock into play. It derives the DirectShow graph clock from the VSync, i.e. synchronizes the two. So it does not matter weather your VSync is off as long as playback speed is adjusted accordingly. A problem here is synchronizing audio which is not too easy if you bitstream it...
Nice guide but you missed something. It's called PotPlayer, it's free and has built-in almost everything. CPU & DXVA (partial, full) codecs and splitters for almost every container and every video file out there. The same is true for audio, too. It has even Pass through (S/PDIF, HDMI) for AC3/TrueHD/DTS, DTS-HD. Only EAC3 is not working. It has also support for madVR and a unique DXVA-renderless mode which combines DXVA & madVR! I think it's close to perfect! BTW, in the article says that there is no free audio decoder for DTS, DTS-HD. That's not correct. FFDShow is capable of decoding and pass through (S/PDIF, HDMI) both DTS and DTS-HD. And PotPlayer of course!
PotPlayer apparently doesn't have support for hardware deinterlacing, and has a host of other issues [ Search for PotPlayer in this page and then read the next set of posts about it : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20... ].
Of course, if it works for you, it is great :) (probably it is a good solution for people watching progressive material only).
The author of LAV CUVID talks in that thread about how renderless DXVA mode works with madVR at the cost of deinterlacing.
Btw, there is no decode of DTS-HD in any open source software now. Both ffdshow and PotPlayer can decode only the core DTS soundtrack. DTS decode has been around for a long time, though.
Indeed, I was referring to progressive material only - interlaced material is rare - but the page you mentioned says PotPlayer has CPU deinterlacing.
I don't see where is the problem.
Hardware Deinterlacing is less important - for most users - than Hardware Decoding (DXVA) and less important than the UNIQUE capability of using DXVA + madVR at the same time.
The cost of hardware deinterlacing is nothing compared to the cost of DXVA and madVR.
For the audio part of your answer, I have to say that because of my AVR (Pioneer VSX-920) decoding inside a PC, BluRay, Media Player or any other decoding capable device of multi-channel audio is never an option for me.
I always prefer the bitstreaming solutions for multi-channel audio - as most of the owners of AVR do - like those provided by FFDshow and PotPlayer which both are more than capable of providing them.
That's why I wrote "decoding and pass-through", I had to write "splitting and pass-through".
One last word.
For every piece of software out there, there is always a list of changes, bugs, things to do.
@Ganesh T S, This is some NICE work. In fact, I cannot recall when was the last time I have seen such an in depth article on the HTPC GPU subject in Anandtech.
The balance between the technical issues, the background, & the effort to honestly report all issues known to you in this article, is spot on.
If it is missing something on the issues report, it misses on the ATI/AMD DPC Latency spiking issues.
As this is still remains unnoticed in Anandtech even in this excellent article, here is a link to the AVS post describing it.
I really appreciate this guide and have been stepping through it
I just registered the ASVid.ax file from TMT5 but the filter is not showing up in the External Filter section of MPC-HC. At first I thought it might be because I registered it on the 32 bit side and I'm using 64 bit MPC-HC, so I unregistered the file from System 32 and registered it on the 64 bit side.
I registered it by going to Start>CMD>Cntrl-Shift-Enter and using the "Regsvr32" command to register the file. I put the file along with the checkactivate dll in a folder in the root directory of my C drive and pointed the Regsvr command to the ASVid.ax file. After hitting enter, I received a "dll successfully registered" message.
Can someone help me to get the filter visible for MPC-HC?
A question...While it's considered beta, will the new LAV video decoder do the same thing the arcsoft video decoder does?
I am aware the gt 430 is a good choice to work around the infamous WMC 29/59 framerate bug. Can you comment on whether or not the 6570 will stutter or not when playing content with 29/59 framerate problems? A very important consideration for those of us using ceton or HDHR Primes (or the new Hauppauge box) for cable TV Live viewing and record/replay.
I'd use my HTPC for DVD's and BD's only with an Full-HD TV. Since i have a rather strong CPU and wouldn't use Hardware Deinterlacing for DVDs, i wonder, if the GT520 is ~that~ bad, in terms of image quality?
In the market but I need confirmation that these cards can do component output to "old guy" HDTV.
NONE of the marketing materials suggest that any recent card can.
Meaning they either come with a component video breakout or at least are compatible with a known 3rd party product, and that they can do the RGB -> YUV thing.
This ancient EVGA 7600 GT I have does it... with an "svideo lookalike" 7 pin -> component breakout.
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fixxxer0 - Sunday, June 12, 2011 - link
that arrangement of cards slightly resembles a swastikaAnand Lal Shimpi - Sunday, June 12, 2011 - link
Thanks for the heads up, it honestly didn't cross our minds at all but now that it's been pointed out I can completely see the resemblance. Needless to say we've removed the offending image and I'd like to apologize to anyone who was offended.Thank you guys for catching it so quickly.
Take care,
Anand
fb39ca4 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
If people want to jump to conclusions, let them. The swastika means many things, if you want to associate it with Nazis then go ahead, or you could associate it with the religion Jainsim, which it happens to be a symbol of. Your interpretaion of the image affects no one, there is no reason to make a big deal over it.fixxxer0 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
lol... i made no connection to nazis or anything... nor said i was offended.i just pointed out a resemblance i noticed as a matter of fact.
tzhu07 - Sunday, June 12, 2011 - link
Yeah, time to change the Nazi reference.qwertymac93 - Sunday, June 12, 2011 - link
The indians(the asian ones...) have been using Swastikas for centuries before the nazi party was even thought of. Just sayin'.jwilliams4200 - Sunday, June 12, 2011 - link
It is unfortunate that there is such an over-reaction to something like this. Besides, the swastika symbol is and has been used for many, many other purposes than representing Nazis:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika
Souka - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
True as it may be that fact remains that if some one says:"Hitler"
Most people think of Adolf
"swastika"
Most people think of Nazi
I'm of Jewish decent... the pic didn't offend me in the least bit, nor my friends.
Jusy saying.... ;)
Gnarr - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
people should be thinking of Nazi's and Hitler anyways, it reminds everyone not to make that mistake again.I see no harm in accidentally arranging something in a Swastika :p
and on that notes.. There is a company in my home country that has been using the swastika as the company logo for over hundred years:
http://martasmarta.blog.is/users/1d/martasmarta/im... ;)
L. - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
Unfortunately it does not.The way the western world depicts adolf hitler, nazism and everything surrounding that part of history is far from reminding anyone not to make that mistake again, as the main message is "nazi evil, hitler evil, us good guys, us not like them".
Anyone ever wondered what difference there is between Gestapo and the Patriot Act ? - oh right it doesn't target jews so it's fine ... lol
SouthPaw42 - Sunday, June 12, 2011 - link
To be a HTPC card it has to be passively cooled. Those a mini pc video cards.Spivonious - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Agreed. HTPC should be as quiet as possible. Passively-cooled video is the only choice.Mels - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Some of us have equipment closets dedicated to equipment using RF to communicate. Noise is definitely something most want to keep reduced but not a deal breaker for every person with a HTPC.nevcairiel - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Not necessarily, there are air coolers that are absolutely quiet. Only the very low-end is available with passive, which might be fine for many people, but if you want the "best" out of your HTPC, that cards won't do anymore.Look at the Gigabyte cards with the Windforce coolers, i don't hear a thing.
buzznut - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
HIS has a passively cooled HD6570 at newegg.http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
Low profile too.
jigglywiggly - Sunday, June 12, 2011 - link
Now that the swatsitka is removed, I feel like something is missing from this review and I can no longer read it ;'(jwilliams4200 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
If I add up the string of numbers for the 6570, I get 193, not 197 like you have in the table. Then I see that the 430 also scores 193, and I compared the string of numbers for the 403 and the 6570, and they are identical. So why does it add up to 193 for the 430, but 197 for the 6570?ganeshts - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Sorry for the slip-up.The 'Ferris Wheel' and 'Roller Coaster' Compression Artifacts scores were wrong in the table under the 6570. I have updated them (no change to the total score).
jwilliams4200 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Also, AMD 6450 adds up to 193, not 189.ganeshts - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Made a big mess copying over the values from the spreadsheet I made.. I hope everything is fixed now. Really regret the errors.jwilliams4200 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
All the numbers add up correctly now. Thanks for monitoring the comments and fixing the errors!Samus - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Honestly, my Geforce 210 has been chillin' in my HTPC for 2+ years, and works perfectly :)josephclemente - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
If I am running a Sandy Bridge system with Intel HD Graphics 3000, do these cards have any benefit over integrated graphics? What is Anandtech's HQV Benchmark score?I tried searching for scores, but people say this is subjective and one reviewer may differ from another. One site says 196 and another in the low 100's. What does this reviewer say?
ganeshts - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Give me a couple of weeks. I will be getting a test system soon with the HD 3000, and I will do detailed HQV benchmarking in that review too.[email protected] - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
I recently built a HTPC with a core i5-2500k on a ASUS P8H67 EVO with a Ceton InfiniTV cable card. Note that the Intel driver is fundamentally flawed and will destroy a system if patched. See the Intel communities thread 20439 for more details.Besides causing BSOD over HDMI output when patched, the stable versions have their own sets of bugs including a memory bleed when watching some premium content on HD channels that crashed WMC. Intel appears to have 1 part time developer working on this problem but every test river he puts out breaks more than it fixes. Watching the same, content with a system running a NVIDIA GPU and the memory bleed goes away.
In my opinion, second gen SB chips is just not ready for prime time in a fully loaded HTPC.
jwilliams4200 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
"The first shot shows the appearance of the video without denoising turned on. The second shot shows the performance with denoising turned off. "Heads I win, tails you lose!
ganeshts - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Again, sorry for the slip-up, and thanks for bringing it to our notice. Fixed it. Hopefully, the gallery pictures cleared up the confusion (particularly the Noise Reduction entry in the NVIDIA Control Panel)stmok - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Looking through various driver release README files, it appears the mobile Nvidia Quadro NVS 4200M (PCI Device ID: 0x1056) also has this feature set.The first stable Linux driver (x86) to introduce support for Feature Set D is 270.41.03 release.
=> ftp://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86/270.41...
It shows only the Geforce GT 520 and Quadro NVS 4200M support Feature Set D.
The most recent one confirms that they are still the only models to support it.
=> ftp://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86/275.09...
ganeshts - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Thanks for bringing it to our notice. When that page was being written (around 2 weeks back), the README indicated that the GT 520 was the only GPU supporting Feature Set D. We will let the article stand as-is, and I am sure readers perusing the comments will become aware of this new GPU.havoti97 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
So basically the app store's purpose is to attract submissions of ideas for features of their next OS, uncompensated of course. All the other crap/fart apps not worthy are approved and people make pennies of those.qwertymac93 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
What the heck are you talking about?velis - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
A great review. Provides all the answers one could wish for and even gives some further hints.I sure hope you have something like this lined up for llano.
If I may suggest a couple or three things:
Perhaps you should also mention reclock - it will solve most 23.976 and similar problems... It's not like many will detect that the video is running 1/24000th faster. Plus it's insanely easy to use.
I understand you couldn't just post full blown images for space problems, but those thumbnails require too much work too. Is it possible to display a popup of sorts when one mouse-overs those thumbnails?
Also a vertical line showing 60FPS in those DXVA tests would be great :)
ganeshts - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
I will pass on your request(s) to the person in charge of the graphing engine :)Salfalot - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
What might have been a nice option is to see what sound levels the cards produced. Even it was only for the GT430 and the HD6570. I know that the decibels can differ between manufacturers but it would have been nice!For the rest a very nice detailed review between HTPC cards. I was deciding which card to buy so this helped a great deal! I was only looking between the HD6450 and the HD6570 but the GT430 is a better option than the HD6450.
nevcairiel - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
HDMI Audio is purely digital, there is no diference based on what card you use.It depends on the audio decoder, and your receiver at the other end of the HDMI link, the HDMI sound card on those cards does not change the audio.
Salfalot - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
I think I did not use the right word, as I meant the levels of decibel the fan of the cards produce and not the audio too and through speakers.All reviewed cards have a fan on them and since most of the HTPC setups are in the living room it would have been nice to know which of the cards are most silent.
ganeshts - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Though we considered cards with fans in this review, we made it a point to note that the same configuration (GPU model + DRAM bus width + operating frequencies) can be obtained with passive cooling from other vendors.For example, the 6570 has a passively cooled model from HIS with the same config and Zotac has a passively cooled 430 too. Other vendors have also demonstrated passively cooled models in Computex.
cjs150 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Firstly, a truly informative article. Very high quality.The fact that none of AMD, Intel and Nvidia can lock onto to the correct frame rates is unforgiveable. It is not as though these frame rates have changed over the last 6 months. It should not be necessary to be an advanced HTPC user and delve into custom creation of frame rates.
I really hope that the representatives of AMD, Intel and NVidia are hanging their heads in shame at such basic errors - sadly I doubt they care.
Grasso789 - Monday, January 28, 2013 - link
The mistake is rather with Microsoft. Video playback speed should be adapted to the refresh rate of the grafx card. There is a software called Reclock doing that. Then, for example 23,996 Hz can be run with a monitor refresh rate of n times 24 Hz. (The same with audio, because bit-perfect transmission only works with synchronization.) In the end and for most sources, the RAMDAC needed only (multiples of) 24, 25 and 30 Hz. In any system, one of its parts should be the clock master, while the other parts serve.casteve - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Excellent review, Ganesh! Your HTPC insight/reviews have been missed.casteve - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
I hope to see a review of the HD 6670, now that (at least) Sapphire has released a passive version.Drae - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
... it'd be nice to see more use of Linux please. I realise there are a lack of "testing" and "evaluation" tools under Linux but that shouldn't prevent the testing of basic media needs. What's this about no bit streaming support under Linux? Boxee would disagree - as would:http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?27348-Tr...
along with XBMC's audioengine (involving work by the guy in the above link). Maybe Windows 8 will sort out the mess that is WMC and all the messing (or bypassing with MPC-HC) that is required to get it working solidly. But right now if you want something that approaches a plug and play media experience XBMC (and its off-spring Openelec) under Linux is a lot closer than Windows. Equally the more coverage such solutions get the more likely greater time will be spent fixing the remaining issues under the Linux OS - hello there Intel and AMD.
Finally there is a great move now - go look at AVS' fora for examples - away from large media center pc's to small, quiet (silent) systems. These don't require 300W or 500W power supplies and huge cases with twelve fans and fifty million led's. They are ITX based systems sitting in small ITX sized boxes running 65/80/90/120W PicoPSU's with much greater efficiency and thus lower power use/running costs/silence. Placing these discrete cards in such systems would be a nice test of these picopsu units - given the apparently low power draw shown in the articles (something I'm very interested in seeing right now given the poor support of Linux by Intel on Sandybridge - the GT430 would be a good interim solution for me).
TLDR: Please don't limit yourselves to Windows testing and ATX/mATX sized systems when writing HTPC articles
ganeshts - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Drae, Thanks for the info and the link.The issue with Linux HTPCs is the fact that there is a semblance of support from only NVIDIA.
Don't get me wrong! I am a huge Linux fan, and always prefer free / open-source software. But, from a video perspective, is there a multi-GPU platform similar to DXVA ? Every vendor has their own flavour (NVIDIA - VDPAU / Intel - VA-API / AMD - XvBA). From the audio side, it looks like the link you mention is the only avenue available for bitstreaming, and that too for NVIDIA GPUs only. I will keep close tabs on what is happening in this area, and when the time is right, I will definitely post a piece on Linux HTPCs, considering one card from each of the vendors.
cjs150 - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
As always it depends on what you want from an HTPC. For me I want to play Blu rays, stream HD movies from file server, watch and record TV and do some web browsing but in total silence (or as close to as possible).For me ITX systems are the way to go using a 150W PICO-pSU but critical is that they have to work with appropriate IR remote (Logitech DiNovo looks interesting)
I am happy to use Linux or Windows but it just has to work
alfredska - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
This kind of quality review is what made AnandTech a name to remember early on. I'm glad to see such thoroughness and well thought out presentation of information. Looking forward to more reviews by Ganesh.UrQuan3 - Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - link
Agreed, this is an excelent article. I tried cross referencing to the "Zotec Zbox" article from the 9th (I own an E-350) and the earlier benchmarking was useless. I already know the E-350 won't do full processing, but I wanted to know where it sits compared to these platforms that pull 3-10 times the power.Think a 'software mode' might have been useful? An i5 could have done a fair amount of this processing without a hardware assist, saving the 70watts the cards were pulling and avoiding some of the integrated's compatability issues.
Shadowmaster625 - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
I dont get the video card focus in the realm of HTPC. It seems that software is a far more important piece of the picture than a video card. Windows media center and XBMC both work like crap, and/or are unacceptably slow and clunky when it comes to browsing media. I do NOT tolerate that kind of lag, especially on a 3 ghz quadcore with an ssd/hdd drive setup. I dont expect miracles when trying to browse through a gigabyte of media, but still it should be faster. And then there's audio sync problems that like to appear out of nowhere. But you'd never know any of these problems exist from reading these articles. Shrug.I have found that VLC media player and windows explorer are the most reliable combination. But using windows explorer on an htpc is ugly and painful.
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
I think part of the problem is the degree to which there's news. A thorough review of Media Center might be warranted, the next time it changes, but was pretty thoroughly covered here (http://www.anandtech.com/show/2864/) and here (http://www.anandtech.com/show/2760). XBMC has a more frequent update cycle than Windows, and there's obviously interest so this might be an idea to explore further.As far as the difficulties with each of these platforms, a Z68 platform and SRT might be the solution here. So the size of the files is not really the problem, it's that when you browse to a folder the user wants to be able to scroll around the list or grid and have all of the information pertinent to those files readily available. You don't want to scroll over to a file in your West Wing Season 5 folder and wait for the Title to load so you know whether it's the episode you were looking for, you want that information to be up the instant you scroll to it, or even better for it to be glanceable before you even start scrolling. In order to achieve this the OS's load all of the information for all of the files in the folder. So if you have a few dozen files in a folder that's the metadata for each files, the thumbnail preview and then the usual file system queries the OS would do anytime it accesses the drive. That can add up to a lot of small reads, and that leads to that big stall as you scoot around your media.
Now, the throw money at it solution is move to ALL SSD storage. But I've got 4TB of media and don't have that kind of money to throw at the problem. SRT should help though. If I recall, the metadata and thumbnail files are stored locally in the folder with the files, but since SRT caches the frequently accessed files, then for a system used exclusively for media the only thing that should populate the SSD cache is going to be these small reads that otherwise slow down your system.
I am suddenly overwhelmed with an urge to get my hands on a Z68 to try this out! And you are quite right that VLC and Windows Explorer are the most reliable programs for browsing and playing back media, but the price you pay for pretty is often performance.
vailr - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
As an exercise in "possibility thinking", I'd be interested in a sub-category of a complete "solar powered" desktop-format PC review. Designed (theoretically) for someone living in a remote area, off the electrical grid, yet still having internet via satellite, cell phone signal, or otherwise connected. Designed for ultra low power consumption, mostly dependent on solar and/or wind power produced on site. Yet maximal possible performance (under such power restrictions) for either: generic gaming desktop PC, and also for a HTPC. Using SSD's and/or laptop HD's for storage, and with an energy sipping CPU (dual-core Atom vs. Intel i330, for example), combined with either: on-CPU chip video or a "PCIe bus only" powered video card, and yet somewhat viable as a gaming PC or as a HTPC.Maybe even qualify for an article in Home Power magazine? http://homepower.com
Penti - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
Why? Running a 100 W PC of batteries is pretty pointless.Just install FTTH and a powerline if you like to game or do other intensive tasks needing GPU-power, fast cpus or ridiculous amounts of memory (workstation type stuff). It would be the most efficient solution any way. You don't even need any power for any modems. You certainly can run a PC of battery power off grid, but why destroy your work with that. It would be hard to store much electrical power.
Otherwise you would pretty much had to get by with a low-powered laptop. No monitor.
Do the unabomber type guys need any gaming? If so they need to install a good damn power line or at least a diesel-generator. They don't have the money and skills to build energy storage and buy panels thats enough to power a modern home any way.
enki - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
How about a short conclusion section for those who just use a Windows 7 box with a Ceton tuner card to watch hdtv in Windows Media Center? (i.e. will just be playing back WTV files recorded directly on the box)What provides the best quality output?
What can stream better then stereo over HDMI? On my old 3400 ATI card it either streams the Dolby Digital directly (the computer doesn't do any processing of the audio) or can output stereo (doesn't think there can be more then 2 speakers connected)
Thanks
BernardP - Monday, June 13, 2011 - link
The inability to create and scale custom resolutions within AMD graphics drivers is, for me, a deal-breaker that keeps me from even considering AMD graphics. It will also keep me from Llano, Trinity and future AMD Fusion APU's. I'll stay with NVidia as long as they keep allowing for custom resolutions.My older eyes are grateful for the custom 1536 X 960 desktop resolution on my 24 inch 16:10 monitor. I couldn't create this resolution with AMD graphics drivers.
bobbozzo - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
In your case, you should just increase the size of the fonts and widgets instead of lowering the screen res.Assimilator87 - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
I wish there was a section dedicated to the silent stream bug. I have a GTX 470 hooked up to an Onkyo TX-SR805 and this issue is driving me insane. For instance, does this issue only plague certain cards or do all nVidia suffer from it? I was hoping the latest WHQL driver (275.33) would fix this, but sadly, no. Otherwise, the article was amazing and I'll definitely have to check out LAV Splitter.ganeshts - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
The problem with the silent stream bug is that one driver version has it, the next one doesn't and then the next release brings it back. It is hard to pinpoint where the issue is.Amongst our candidates, even with the same driver release, the GT 520 had the bug, but the GT 430 didn't. I am quite confident that the GT 520 issue will get resolved in a future update, but then, I can just hope that it doesn't break the GT 430.
JoeHH - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
This is simply one of the best articles I have ever seen about HTPC. Congrats Ganesh and thank you. Very informative and useful.bobbozzo - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
Hi, Can you please compare hardware de-intelacing, etc., vs software?e.g. many players/codecs can do de-interlacing, de-noise, etc. in software, using the CPU.
How does this compare with a hardware implementation?
thanks
ganeshts - Tuesday, June 14, 2011 - link
This is a good suggestion. Let me try that out in the next HTPC / GPU piece.CiNcH - Wednesday, June 15, 2011 - link
Hey guys,here is how I understand the refresh rate issue. It does not matter weather it is 0.005 Hz off. You can't calculate frame drops/repeats from that. In DirectShow, frames are scheduled with the graph reference clock. So the real problem is how much the clock which the VSync is based on and the reference clock in the DirectShow graph drift from each other. And here comes ReClock into play. It derives the DirectShow graph clock from the VSync, i.e. synchronizes the two. So it does not matter weather your VSync is off as long as playback speed is adjusted accordingly. A problem here is synchronizing audio which is not too easy if you bitstream it...
NikosD - Thursday, June 16, 2011 - link
Nice guide but you missed something.It's called PotPlayer, it's free and has built-in almost everything.
CPU & DXVA (partial, full) codecs and splitters for almost every container and every video file out there.
The same is true for audio, too.
It has even Pass through (S/PDIF, HDMI) for AC3/TrueHD/DTS, DTS-HD. Only EAC3 is not working.
It has also support for madVR and a unique DXVA-renderless mode which combines DXVA & madVR!
I think it's close to perfect!
BTW, in the article says that there is no free audio decoder for DTS, DTS-HD.
That's not correct.
FFDShow is capable of decoding and pass through (S/PDIF, HDMI) both DTS and DTS-HD.
And PotPlayer of course!
ganeshts - Thursday, June 16, 2011 - link
PotPlayer apparently doesn't have support for hardware deinterlacing, and has a host of other issues [ Search for PotPlayer in this page and then read the next set of posts about it : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20... ].Of course, if it works for you, it is great :) (probably it is a good solution for people watching progressive material only).
The author of LAV CUVID talks in that thread about how renderless DXVA mode works with madVR at the cost of deinterlacing.
Btw, there is no decode of DTS-HD in any open source software now. Both ffdshow and PotPlayer can decode only the core DTS soundtrack. DTS decode has been around for a long time, though.
NikosD - Saturday, June 18, 2011 - link
Indeed, I was referring to progressive material only - interlaced material is rare - but the page you mentioned says PotPlayer has CPU deinterlacing.I don't see where is the problem.
Hardware Deinterlacing is less important - for most users - than Hardware Decoding (DXVA) and less important than the UNIQUE capability of using DXVA + madVR at the same time.
The cost of hardware deinterlacing is nothing compared to the cost of DXVA and madVR.
For the audio part of your answer, I have to say that because of my AVR (Pioneer VSX-920) decoding inside a PC, BluRay, Media Player or any other decoding capable device of multi-channel audio is never an option for me.
I always prefer the bitstreaming solutions for multi-channel audio - as most of the owners of AVR do - like those provided by FFDshow and PotPlayer which both are more than capable of providing them.
That's why I wrote "decoding and pass-through", I had to write "splitting and pass-through".
One last word.
For every piece of software out there, there is always a list of changes, bugs, things to do.
That doesn't mean we don't use it or like it.
PR3ACH3R - Friday, June 17, 2011 - link
@Ganesh T S,This is some NICE work.
In fact, I cannot recall when was the last time I have seen such an in depth article on the HTPC GPU subject in Anandtech.
The balance between the technical issues, the background, & the effort to honestly report all issues known to you in this article, is spot on.
If it is missing something on the issues report, it misses on the ATI/AMD DPC Latency spiking issues.
As this is still remains unnoticed in Anandtech even in this excellent article, here is a link to the AVS post describing it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=12...
(Ignore some of the discredit attempt posts in this thread, this problem exists to this very day.)
NikosD - Thursday, June 23, 2011 - link
Well, I did some further tests and found out that PotPlayer does have hardware deinterlacing.Have you done any tests by yourself to see if the player supports Hardware Deinterlacing ?
ganeshts - Saturday, June 25, 2011 - link
NikosD, I will definitely try PotPlayer out in the next GPU review. Till now, my knowledge is limited to what is there in the AVSForum thread.flashbacck - Friday, June 24, 2011 - link
I know HTPCs are even more of niche these days than ever, so I appreciate you still doing these tests very much.wpoulson - Thursday, July 28, 2011 - link
I really appreciate this guide and have been stepping through itI just registered the ASVid.ax file from TMT5 but the filter is not showing up in the External Filter section of MPC-HC. At first I thought it might be because I registered it on the 32 bit side and I'm using 64 bit MPC-HC, so I unregistered the file from System 32 and registered it on the 64 bit side.
I registered it by going to Start>CMD>Cntrl-Shift-Enter and using the "Regsvr32" command to register the file. I put the file along with the checkactivate dll in a folder in the root directory of my C drive and pointed the Regsvr command to the ASVid.ax file. After hitting enter, I received a "dll successfully registered" message.
Can someone help me to get the filter visible for MPC-HC?
A question...While it's considered beta, will the new LAV video decoder do the same thing the arcsoft video decoder does?
Thanks
Warren
stuartm - Friday, January 20, 2012 - link
I am aware the gt 430 is a good choice to work around the infamous WMC 29/59 framerate bug. Can you comment on whether or not the 6570 will stutter or not when playing content with 29/59 framerate problems? A very important consideration for those of us using ceton or HDHR Primes (or the new Hauppauge box) for cable TV Live viewing and record/replay.Thank You
MichaelSan1980 - Saturday, January 21, 2012 - link
I'd use my HTPC for DVD's and BD's only with an Full-HD TV. Since i have a rather strong CPU and wouldn't use Hardware Deinterlacing for DVDs, i wonder, if the GT520 is ~that~ bad, in terms of image quality?drizzo4shizzo - Wednesday, June 20, 2012 - link
Old guy here.In the market but I need confirmation that these cards can do component output to "old guy" HDTV.
NONE of the marketing materials suggest that any recent card can.
Meaning they either come with a component video breakout or at least are compatible with a known 3rd party product, and that they can do the RGB -> YUV thing.
This ancient EVGA 7600 GT I have does it... with an "svideo lookalike" 7 pin -> component breakout.
Anyone? Beuller?