I like WebOS but the opensourceness of the thing is questionable.
They link to a few patches for a-now-outdated version of WebOS and that does not even include the Linux kernel.
While it looks technically very good, I've troubles seeing a future vs Android (which is FULLY open source) or iOS (which open sourced parts are MUCH larger)
I'm not sure if closed OSes have a large chance today, where you have to rely heavily on the distributor (HP) for everything.
As proof, the promised WebOS 2 won't be ported to the pre afterall. If it were open source, it'd be running there ages ago.
Presumably most tech-savvy consumers already have a smartphone. What webOS and other smarthphone OS makers should be targeting is the much larger rest of the population, those still using dumbphones and maybe not even a cellphone, in order to grow the smartphone market. I'm not sure the ability to look at, contribute, compile, and install your own OS source code is a major selling feature for most people.
I don't have a cell phone at all. I really don't see the point of a smartphone. If I need to call someone, I'm usually at home or at work. If I'm somewhere else, I probably don't want to be contacted. I have an MP3 player for music. I have a very short commute, so there's no time for videos, games, or books. I have a laptop at home and a desktop at work. If I'm out somewhere, I really don't need to have web access at all times.
I think Apple surprised everyone when they successfully marketed the concept of a smartphone to consumers.
Apple didn't sell "smartphone" to users, Apple (in a very Apple-y way) heavily marketed a device which converged all your pocket objects (iPod, phone, games) into one shiny device that made you cool and trendy, with simple idiot proof apps rather than fiddly small screened slow internets. They polished the idea and sold it as a lifestyle object in a way that appealed to the masses, not just geeks.
Still most people who own a smart phone do very little that's actually "smart" with it, they just listen to music, call/text, use a few apps and some social networking. I see old people who can barely operate a door carrying them... just bought one cos the salesmen told them it was good.
I'd like to see a thriving multi-ecosystem in the mobile and tablet market, but I don't see it very likely.
Apple is skimming of the easy-to-use high-end with iOS. Tech for the rest of us. Overpriced perhaps to some, but it works and sells well.
Android is grabbing all tech-heads, much of devs and lots of mid-market and even the low-end.
Win7 is not ready for tablet.
Where does that leave HP as the only manufacturer fighting against Android with hordes of manufacturers?
In a pinch.
They have no consumer brand (esp. outside US). They are not a great marketing company. WebOS is very limited as an ecosystem and highly web centric.
Yes, it has a lot of features and innovations going for it, but so did OS9 and still Windows dominated.
I have no positive view for WebOS. Within 2-3 years HP will have buried it pretty much or sold it off to be integrated somehow to somebody's other platfrom.
It all sounds very nice but you know it's going nowhere. Google are going to win in the end, with apple keeping their customary % of the high end. Google are like the borg - you will be assimilated or destroyed.
Actually, you won't and cannot beat Apple in the mobile space. It will never happen. You can make a dent, but Apple is too chic at the moment. What I mean is, iPhone is the first thing most people think of when I bring out my Android phone. They don't realize that the iPhone is not the only device that does what it does. Same for the iPad, plus the itunes library and app store are too vast. Google can only be second best here.
I am not so sure that you are right, in the mobile space as a whole.
Apple have done a great job establishing and growing the market. Sucking people in, but that was during the high spending, early adopter phase. However, now, the deals/tariffs that go along with their devices are just way too expensive for many people, but more people want in, so Google are taking up their business.
Apple will always have a good position in the high end smart phone market, but we are seeing a mid/lower end, cheaper market appear, with devices such as the HTC Wildfire. Apple aren't interested in cheap-skates who won't or can't afford to buy apps and stuff though, so it's no skin off of Apple's nose, I'm sure.
Therefore, I believe that, just as in almost every other mass consumer markets, the number of people in the mid/low end will be far far greater than the high end. So Apple wont dominate the whole market forever, but I doubt that that matters to them, in the end. They will still have a big stake in the most lucrative, high-end market ,which is just how they like it :o)
Apple have such volume, that they can make money at low price points. They can get the best components&assembly deals, amortize research, get lots of free press... So they can be profitable in the low-end. Neither the iPhone, iPad nor iPod are horrendously expensive compared to competing products.
And above all, there's the whole lock-in +network effect thing. Once you start buying things from iTunes, it starts to make sense buying lots of iTunes hardware, then more content, then more hardware...
I'm sure, as long as it won't devalue their brand, Apple will be thrilled to have "starter" (gateway ?) products to suck more customers in.
I'd like to know more about the built quality and feel of the devices. The current Palm devices out there feel rather plastic and flimsy. Any different with this series?
I can see a lot of glossy plastic and that does not appeal to me. Even the stand has glossy plastic, a smudge and finger print magnet. The display of the Pad seems a rather glossy screen too.
I also wonder if the Weer has GPS, it is only mentioned for the Pre 3. On a "professional" device the build quality ios even more important. And the glossy black does not look appealing there at all.
And may be I should know that from the Web OS so far, but what is the app market like? Is it closed to a single vendor like Apple? What are the developer conditions (rules for acceptance, competing products, pricing, in app purchase of content, ...)? What is the dev platform like? Or is there an open market, where I can connect my device to HP, an OSS market and my carriers market and get them unified in one view on the device?
While I like the idea of a smaller smartphone, I wonder if this is too small. It is about the same width and thickness as my HTC Diamond but a half inch shorter and with a smaller and lower resolution screen. I almost never need a stylus but am generally using a fingernail to press the screen as everything is small. On a capacitive screen that won't be an option. Also the battery is going to be tiny, the smaller screen should draw less power but still I wonder if battery life will be acceptable. I wonder if a Pixi 2 would have been overall more useful?
I agree, it's a waste to go with the same form factor as the Pre, only miniaturized, and the screen being too small was already proven with the Pixi. A Pixi candy-bar style phone with the resolution of the Pre, or an iPhone form-factor slate phone with the resolution of the IPhone4 / Atrix, would have been a much better option next to the Pre3. This isn't going to do well unless it's free on contract at launch.
Its fairly open. Costs nothing to submit an app and they are added to the marketplace after a day or two to review them. Hopefully HP continues the love that Palm showed app developers (millions given away in contests, half-off drives where users paid half price but devs still got full loyalties, etc.)
Actually, the homebrew scene is just as active as the official app marketplace. I can install a homebrew modification that customizes the base functionality of the phone as simply as I can an official app. All OTA from a simple selectable list with no need to “root” anything.
Personally, I’m a big fan of WebOS and if pre3 is truly shipping as a worldphone, I’m all over it. Don’t even get me started on the luxury of touchstone…
I like the uniform look. If HP or developers push out content that works well, they may have a very good chance. What they have shown so far is great and I would buy one right now over an iPad just for the multi tasking and clean look. What I hate about Android is the unclean look between all apps. Different backgrounds, fonts, touch functions, makes it seem very fragmented.
Is this feature limited only to transferring web addresses? It would have so much potential if it were more extensible. It would be so much better if pdf readers, e-book readers, document editors etc. that may come standard on the devices could use it.
But, even beyond that has HP intimated any sort of api that could be used in the development of any application? Possibilities really open up if that is the case.
Although only the web-address transferring was actually demo'd, I am quite sure this functionality would cover other use-cases such as email, books (assuming it is purchased and the Kindle app is made available for the Pre 3) etc.
HP is being very open on the development front. If you look at the webOS 2.0 overview article, almost all the new features have been exposed to developers via API's. I would be surprised if this one isn't.
The Veer could easily replace featurephones as long as the price is right.
I've always sort of imagined that as the top-tier smartphone market moves forward, that yesterday's superphones would become tomorrow's featurephones.
Thus far it hasn't really happened, but if the Veer is CHEAP ENOUGH ($200-250 off contract), and Apple actually does put out their rumored "iPhone Mini" for $200 off-contract, I can definitely see these miniscule smartphones giving crappy and un-useful featurephones a serious run for their money.
Now Sony, if you can make another Xperia Mini Pro, but make sure it has a decent CPU... and Android 2.3...
It could be a create business phone, not everybody wants a entertainment device for work :)
HP needs to start selling them through their distribution-system in all the world though. I can order a Pre 2 here in Sweden from their UK website. But can't get in in stores, on HP's own website and it's not even advertised at all that they sell it to Sweden. Distribution was really what Palm was missing. We couldn't buy the Pre here at all.
Btw I'm sitting on a 260 USD Android now, a few years ago that would have been a feature phone. They already have replace feature phones and as I see it they need to disappear, makes no sense maintaing the code for those platforms. That 260 is with 25% VAT/sales tax included. There's Android phones now for 155 USD here, without a contract. I know it isn't custom to do in the US, but still it's already here. In the US to there is a few android devices from 150 USD.
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anada - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
I like WebOS but the opensourceness of the thing is questionable.They link to a few patches for a-now-outdated version of WebOS and that does not even include the Linux kernel.
While it looks technically very good, I've troubles seeing a future vs Android (which is FULLY open source) or iOS (which open sourced parts are MUCH larger)
I'm not sure if closed OSes have a large chance today, where you have to rely heavily on the distributor (HP) for everything.
As proof, the promised WebOS 2 won't be ported to the pre afterall. If it were open source, it'd be running there ages ago.
ltcommanderdata - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
Presumably most tech-savvy consumers already have a smartphone. What webOS and other smarthphone OS makers should be targeting is the much larger rest of the population, those still using dumbphones and maybe not even a cellphone, in order to grow the smartphone market. I'm not sure the ability to look at, contribute, compile, and install your own OS source code is a major selling feature for most people.Spivonious - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
I don't have a cell phone at all. I really don't see the point of a smartphone. If I need to call someone, I'm usually at home or at work. If I'm somewhere else, I probably don't want to be contacted. I have an MP3 player for music. I have a very short commute, so there's no time for videos, games, or books. I have a laptop at home and a desktop at work. If I'm out somewhere, I really don't need to have web access at all times.I think Apple surprised everyone when they successfully marketed the concept of a smartphone to consumers.
kingpotnoodle - Friday, February 11, 2011 - link
Apple didn't sell "smartphone" to users, Apple (in a very Apple-y way) heavily marketed a device which converged all your pocket objects (iPod, phone, games) into one shiny device that made you cool and trendy, with simple idiot proof apps rather than fiddly small screened slow internets. They polished the idea and sold it as a lifestyle object in a way that appealed to the masses, not just geeks.Still most people who own a smart phone do very little that's actually "smart" with it, they just listen to music, call/text, use a few apps and some social networking. I see old people who can barely operate a door carrying them... just bought one cos the salesmen told them it was good.
Smartphones owners != Smartphone feature users.
halcyon - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
I'd like to see a thriving multi-ecosystem in the mobile and tablet market, but I don't see it very likely.Apple is skimming of the easy-to-use high-end with iOS. Tech for the rest of us. Overpriced perhaps to some, but it works and sells well.
Android is grabbing all tech-heads, much of devs and lots of mid-market and even the low-end.
Win7 is not ready for tablet.
Where does that leave HP as the only manufacturer fighting against Android with hordes of manufacturers?
In a pinch.
They have no consumer brand (esp. outside US). They are not a great marketing company. WebOS is very limited as an ecosystem and highly web centric.
Yes, it has a lot of features and innovations going for it, but so did OS9 and still Windows dominated.
I have no positive view for WebOS. Within 2-3 years HP will have buried it pretty much or sold it off to be integrated somehow to somebody's other platfrom.
A shame, but alone they have no chance.
Dribble - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
It all sounds very nice but you know it's going nowhere. Google are going to win in the end, with apple keeping their customary % of the high end. Google are like the borg - you will be assimilated or destroyed.cmdrdredd - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
Actually, you won't and cannot beat Apple in the mobile space. It will never happen. You can make a dent, but Apple is too chic at the moment. What I mean is, iPhone is the first thing most people think of when I bring out my Android phone. They don't realize that the iPhone is not the only device that does what it does. Same for the iPad, plus the itunes library and app store are too vast. Google can only be second best here.argosreality - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
I'm sure Gm and Ford said the same thing about the vehicle market. Oops, wait...Aloonatic - Friday, February 11, 2011 - link
I am not so sure that you are right, in the mobile space as a whole.Apple have done a great job establishing and growing the market. Sucking people in, but that was during the high spending, early adopter phase. However, now, the deals/tariffs that go along with their devices are just way too expensive for many people, but more people want in, so Google are taking up their business.
Apple will always have a good position in the high end smart phone market, but we are seeing a mid/lower end, cheaper market appear, with devices such as the HTC Wildfire. Apple aren't interested in cheap-skates who won't or can't afford to buy apps and stuff though, so it's no skin off of Apple's nose, I'm sure.
Therefore, I believe that, just as in almost every other mass consumer markets, the number of people in the mid/low end will be far far greater than the high end. So Apple wont dominate the whole market forever, but I doubt that that matters to them, in the end. They will still have a big stake in the most lucrative, high-end market ,which is just how they like it :o)
StormyParis - Friday, February 11, 2011 - link
I'm no longer sure about the high-end thing.Apple have such volume, that they can make money at low price points. They can get the best components&assembly deals, amortize research, get lots of free press... So they can be profitable in the low-end. Neither the iPhone, iPad nor iPod are horrendously expensive compared to competing products.
And above all, there's the whole lock-in +network effect thing. Once you start buying things from iTunes, it starts to make sense buying lots of iTunes hardware, then more content, then more hardware...
I'm sure, as long as it won't devalue their brand, Apple will be thrilled to have "starter" (gateway ?) products to suck more customers in.
Conficio - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
Thanks for a great amount of information.I'd like to know more about the built quality and feel of the devices. The current Palm devices out there feel rather plastic and flimsy. Any different with this series?
I can see a lot of glossy plastic and that does not appeal to me. Even the stand has glossy plastic, a smudge and finger print magnet. The display of the Pad seems a rather glossy screen too.
I also wonder if the Weer has GPS, it is only mentioned for the Pre 3. On a "professional" device the build quality ios even more important. And the glossy black does not look appealing there at all.
And may be I should know that from the Web OS so far, but what is the app market like? Is it closed to a single vendor like Apple? What are the developer conditions (rules for acceptance, competing products, pricing, in app purchase of content, ...)? What is the dev platform like? Or is there an open market, where I can connect my device to HP, an OSS market and my carriers market and get them unified in one view on the device?
strikeback03 - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
according to precentral the Veer does have GPS.While I like the idea of a smaller smartphone, I wonder if this is too small. It is about the same width and thickness as my HTC Diamond but a half inch shorter and with a smaller and lower resolution screen. I almost never need a stylus but am generally using a fingernail to press the screen as everything is small. On a capacitive screen that won't be an option. Also the battery is going to be tiny, the smaller screen should draw less power but still I wonder if battery life will be acceptable. I wonder if a Pixi 2 would have been overall more useful?
arswihart - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
I agree, it's a waste to go with the same form factor as the Pre, only miniaturized, and the screen being too small was already proven with the Pixi. A Pixi candy-bar style phone with the resolution of the Pre, or an iPhone form-factor slate phone with the resolution of the IPhone4 / Atrix, would have been a much better option next to the Pre3. This isn't going to do well unless it's free on contract at launch.Suntan - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
Its fairly open. Costs nothing to submit an app and they are added to the marketplace after a day or two to review them. Hopefully HP continues the love that Palm showed app developers (millions given away in contests, half-off drives where users paid half price but devs still got full loyalties, etc.)Actually, the homebrew scene is just as active as the official app marketplace. I can install a homebrew modification that customizes the base functionality of the phone as simply as I can an official app. All OTA from a simple selectable list with no need to “root” anything.
Personally, I’m a big fan of WebOS and if pre3 is truly shipping as a worldphone, I’m all over it. Don’t even get me started on the luxury of touchstone…
-Suntan
Dug - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
I like the uniform look. If HP or developers push out content that works well, they may have a very good chance. What they have shown so far is great and I would buy one right now over an iPad just for the multi tasking and clean look.What I hate about Android is the unclean look between all apps. Different backgrounds, fonts, touch functions, makes it seem very fragmented.
fogle112 - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
Is this feature limited only to transferring web addresses? It would have so much potential if it were more extensible. It would be so much better if pdf readers, e-book readers, document editors etc. that may come standard on the devices could use it.But, even beyond that has HP intimated any sort of api that could be used in the development of any application? Possibilities really open up if that is the case.
mythun.chandra - Thursday, February 10, 2011 - link
Although only the web-address transferring was actually demo'd, I am quite sure this functionality would cover other use-cases such as email, books (assuming it is purchased and the Kindle app is made available for the Pre 3) etc.HP is being very open on the development front. If you look at the webOS 2.0 overview article, almost all the new features have been exposed to developers via API's. I would be surprised if this one isn't.
synaesthetic - Friday, February 11, 2011 - link
The Veer could easily replace featurephones as long as the price is right.I've always sort of imagined that as the top-tier smartphone market moves forward, that yesterday's superphones would become tomorrow's featurephones.
Thus far it hasn't really happened, but if the Veer is CHEAP ENOUGH ($200-250 off contract), and Apple actually does put out their rumored "iPhone Mini" for $200 off-contract, I can definitely see these miniscule smartphones giving crappy and un-useful featurephones a serious run for their money.
Now Sony, if you can make another Xperia Mini Pro, but make sure it has a decent CPU... and Android 2.3...
Penti - Saturday, February 12, 2011 - link
It could be a create business phone, not everybody wants a entertainment device for work :)HP needs to start selling them through their distribution-system in all the world though. I can order a Pre 2 here in Sweden from their UK website. But can't get in in stores, on HP's own website and it's not even advertised at all that they sell it to Sweden. Distribution was really what Palm was missing. We couldn't buy the Pre here at all.
Btw I'm sitting on a 260 USD Android now, a few years ago that would have been a feature phone. They already have replace feature phones and as I see it they need to disappear, makes no sense maintaing the code for those platforms. That 260 is with 25% VAT/sales tax included. There's Android phones now for 155 USD here, without a contract. I know it isn't custom to do in the US, but still it's already here. In the US to there is a few android devices from 150 USD.