An interesting result...but looking at some other 5870 reviews, OC3D reviewed an XFX 5870 xXx edition ( http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/gpu_displays/xf... ), which is an OC oriented card based off reference design, and they managed to get a 984MHz overclock, along with the cards stock 1300MHz memory. Would be interesting if you could take a look at that card as well.
on the page for overall OC results it reads Sapphire Toxic 2GB: 600/1250 MSI Lighting: 940/1300 Gigabyte Super Overclock: 950/1325
i think the saphire should be 960
--- BTW, thank you for giving us a quick overview of the OC advantage over stock speeds. It's something I am always interested in to see if paying for the OC ability is worth it.
I was really hoping these OCs would conquer the stock GTX 480. I've been looking for a reason to NOT go nVidia this round. As a water cooler, noise and heat are irrelevant to me. Power is my only concern. 170w vs 190w at idle, and within 50w at load (Crysis)... I'm not sure that small of a difference is enough justification to buy a slower GPU.
PS, in the test setup you list the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 Core 216, but have no results for it in any of the tests. Typo?
It looks to me like the power draw penalty for 2GB on the Sapphire card is ~25W. Is there something else like clock speeds that are somehow being factored in or was this just a mistake?
every now and then, there is some joke here that makes me laugh... good article btw!
about the overcloks, it looks like a future re-spin of the cypress running at 1ghz could overcome the Fermi.... it would be fun to see a 2 billion transistor GPU running faster than a 3 billion one....
The thing is compared to Cypress Fermi overclocks exceptionally well, especially considering the fact that when it first appeared I don't think anyone thought it would. Seems like Fermi should profit a lot more from a die shrink than cypress, but let's see what NI brings to the table.
As an electrical engineer, I wouldn't want to buy a card that is clocked so close to it usable limit. It's just begging for premature failures, especially at such high temperatures. A few months of dust build up and these cards will be pushing 120C, typically the level where components' lifespans are drastically reduced. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see video cards pushing much more horsepower without some serious form factor modifications.
Nope, most enthusiasts believe their system will run free of dirt and grime for years and years and temperatures will stay the same. Once a part is tainted it becomes harder and harder to have it stay cleaned :) Take CPU fan for example hahaha
What BIOS did your GB HD5870 use? There are two availeble "F2" and "F3". From discussions in the german GB-Support-Forum regarding GB HD 5850 OC, which is using the same cooler as far as I can tell, new BIOS-Versions were created to deal with some issues including noise. There have been many angry posts, because GB advertised this cooler as "SUPER SILENT"!
If your test sample used "F2" an update to "F3" and eventual changes in idle characteristics would be interesting, if the test sample is still available.
Gigabyte cant make a decent OC card. Just like their 4870 with the one speed noisy zalman fan and no fan adjustment. They just dont get it.
I had high hopes for this new 5870 version but looks like they screwed up again. Apparently they released the card with one clock mode (flat out) no 2D clocks, no UVD clocks, just max clocks. As the previous poster said ,maybe the card in this review has the original bios.
I wish they would offer a card that either included a waterblock or came with no heatsink at all so the user can choose a waterblock or aftermarket cooler. I dont want to pay for an expensive oc version just to throw the block away so I can throw a waterblock on it.
Also if you want to add aftermarket cooling I would suggest buying a reference card (with the full shroud, fan at the rear and AMD printed above the PCIe Connnector) most aftermarket cooler manufacturers are only supporting the reference design.
Something I think this review missed was VRM cooling on these non-reference cards, the reference HD 5870 provides superior VRM cooling compared to most non-reference cards and allows for Voltage Control. I have managed 950Mhz Core Stable on my reference card without adding any voltage.
I would have loved to see some VRM temps for each card under load, and perhaps a description of the type of VRM cooling they are offering.
Other than that great review, I was tossing up about the MSI and Gigabyte when I was purchasing so I found this really interesting, if a little late for my decision making :)
Unfortunately none of these cards are using VRMs that our existing tools can read temperatures from. This was particularly frustrating with the Gigabyte card, as we could see it throttling but couldn't see the temperature that was triggering it.
Guys, you should really use Left 4 Dead 2 instead of the original game as the sequel is way more intensive on the system. The visual difference may not be stunning but the hunger for performance is there.
Seeing how idle noise is basically The Gigabyte card's only flaw, I was wondering if you tried to remedy that by controlling the fan speed with MSI Afterburner software? It's VERY handy for creating custom fan speed curves. The only question is compatibility with Gigabyte's custom card.
This article comes at the best of time for me, I've been trying to decide for the last two weeks wich OCed 5870 to get. But I'm surprised that there's no Asus matrix in the review, maybe it's that we have it here in Europe and it's not on sale in the US ? I would have liked to see it compared to the Gigabyte, as my usual store has both for sale.
Was the Gigabyte clocking down properly on idle? I have a an Asus 5850, based on the reference design. Once you attach 2 monitors it no longer clocks down to something like 157MHz core / 300MHz memory, but instead idles at full speed 700MHz core / 1000MHz memory with a consequent rise in noise levels, which first alerted me to the fact.
You dropped Wolfenstein, one of the few OpenGL games, because of the way it responds, and yet you keep in Left 4 Dead, one of the most CPU limited games there is.
I think that there should be another chapter included in OC cards RoundUps :
1)test the cards @ default settings (already done) 2)test the cards @ OC settings (already done) 3)try to see what PCB design and options are better by excluding the cooling limitation imposed by the specific coolers and test the cards @ OC setting WITH the best VGA cooler available at that time
I think this is a good idea and should be included in future reviews IMHO .
You still wouldn't get anywhere due to GPU sample variance. You would need a lot of test samples of each variety to attain even remotely conclusive results.
The fact that these cards are typically running around the $500 mark, which is the same price tag as an Nvidia GTX 480, is a deal breaker. You pay Fermi price without the Fermi performance. Stock 5870s can be had for $400 these days, and a sub 10% performance increase with a 25% price increase hardly seems worth it. It is possible to achieve similar overclocking results for less money and with less noise with a good after market cooler.
These are not cards for a gamer, but for people who make it a sport to beat the other guys 3Dmark results. Gamers, you'll see it hardly makes a difference, gameexperience is something else then raw, digital FPS numbers. Save yourself alot of cash and buy a default clocked card; that leaves you with enough money to buy your favorite game ;)
Either you got a bad chip with the lightning, got an exceptional chip with the Toxic, or did something wrong when overclocking the lightning Because both of mine hit 1ghz without issue. As well as three of the four 5770 HAWKs my friends have ordered (one hit 980 instead of 1020-1060).
It is always good to see this kind of thing being made and tested, but the thing that gets me is simple.
This aint the Celery 300 days. You can't get the equivalent of a more expensive chip for half the price, boost it to 150% with a simple (was it multiplier?) switch and get 80%-90% of the more expensive brother.
I have not really seen much come out in the past few years that warrants throwing that much cash out on something that will be beaten for $100 less in 6 months.
Especially when there really is no game that would need it.
The fact that the makers are still comcentrating on giving you the fastest card that can show nose-hair and blackheads in 3D at 2560 resolution irritates me. Has there been any progress (or push for progress) in an EFFICIENT card that can do what the 4870, or 5800's can do for half the power? Passive (silent) cooling? Half the PRICE?
It would be great to get a card to use 1 6 pin additional power cable (hell, push it further, NO additional power) that would be able to fit into a compact case (Shuttle?) and not sound like a dust-buster in game.
Good article, but disappointing that this is still the direction card makers are going. (also sad that all that $$, all that noise and heat gets you so little in the end...)
Question, have you guys figured out a way to be able to rate the best Bang for the Watt? Some comparison taking compact, quiet, efficient cards and trying to rank them by speed, efficiency, ergonomics and price? Can that be done or is that too many variables?
Good post! I thoroughly agree. Reminds me of how pleased I was with the performance of the X1950 I bought in 2006 for 156 UKP, and then again later the excellent results obtained from an 8800GT (Gigabyte Zalman, 700MHz core) which was only 120 UKP. Decent prices, nice performance each time.
Prices now are crazy. I've given up waiting for a card that offers a reasonable speed boost at any kind of similar price point, so instead I've bagged an extra identical 8800GT to have SLI which should work quite well until the RAM limit becomes a factor (atm I'm not playing games which need 1GB). I've done the same thing for my new PC build (i7 860), buying two 8800GTs which cost less than 100 UKP total.
As you say, it seems vendors are going all out for high cost cards, which is ironic given we're supposed to be in the middle of a global recession. Who has the money to buy a $570 card and sleep easy? On a tight budget, I managed to get some items 2nd-hand, saved a decent amount (750W PSU 40% cheaper than new, WD VR 150GB half new price), and found an eBay seller doing the i7 860 at a good price (205 UKP, almost 30 less than any other source) with free shipping (item 270583690505; he has 5 left. Mine is only running at 3.8GHz atm, but I don't have the proper fans yet).
When I bought the 8800GT in 2008, I doubled or tripled games fps rates compared to my old X1950 using the same CPU/RAM (Athlon64 6000+, 4GB DDR2/800), for less than $200. Two years on once more, doing the same thing isn't possible.
Anandtech really needs to get a reliable proofreader. Every article I read has multiple typos which obviously isn't very professional for such a highly regarded tech site. I would do it for free given the subject matter.
These cards do not OC very well at all. I have a reference-design Sapphire 5850 from about a month after they came out, and it does 900/1300 at stock 1.08v, and 1000/1300 at 1.25v. You would think these 5870s with cherry-picked chips, high end components and cooling system could at least match a stock 5850. And there were quite a few people on overclock.net forums getting similar results. Anyway thanks Anandtech, good info.
Please consider adding Metro 2033 to the benchmarks, with all of the eyecandy turned up it looks like a slideshow on my 5850. Must need a brutal amount of power. None of the games you are testing now are very challenging for a Fermi or 5850+.
I would like to extend my thanks to Anandtech for doing an article about PC hardware instead of writing laptop reviews and copy/pasting press releases. I believe this is a topic of great interest for gamers and hardware enthusiasts: How much benefit do you get out of these pre-overclocked cards with big price premiums. As we can see you don't get much and certainly not enough to justify paying $100 or more extra. I just upgraded my Radeon 4870 to a 5850 that overclocks to 950/5000 without extra voltage. Oh, and I paid $225 for it on ebay meaning I got almost as much performance as these $500 cards for 55% less money.
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KayDat - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
An interesting result...but looking at some other 5870 reviews, OC3D reviewed an XFX 5870 xXx edition ( http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/gpu_displays/xf... ), which is an OC oriented card based off reference design, and they managed to get a 984MHz overclock, along with the cards stock 1300MHz memory. Would be interesting if you could take a look at that card as well.Nimiz99 - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
on the page for overall OC results it readsSapphire Toxic 2GB: 600/1250
MSI Lighting: 940/1300
Gigabyte Super Overclock: 950/1325
i think the saphire should be 960
---
BTW, thank you for giving us a quick overview of the OC advantage over stock speeds. It's something I am always interested in to see if paying for the OC ability is worth it.
Great article
Earthmonger - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
I was really hoping these OCs would conquer the stock GTX 480. I've been looking for a reason to NOT go nVidia this round. As a water cooler, noise and heat are irrelevant to me. Power is my only concern. 170w vs 190w at idle, and within 50w at load (Crysis)... I'm not sure that small of a difference is enough justification to buy a slower GPU.PS, in the test setup you list the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260 Core 216, but have no results for it in any of the tests. Typo?
MadMan007 - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
It looks to me like the power draw penalty for 2GB on the Sapphire card is ~25W. Is there something else like clock speeds that are somehow being factored in or was this just a mistake?BlendMe - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
That's a 92mm not cm fan on the sapphire.Rick83 - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
and 80 mm (again, not cm) on the MSI...BlendMe - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
and on the Gigabyte as well...Ryan Smith - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
If I'm going to be wrong, at least I'm going to be consistently wrong.marc1000 - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
LOL!!!!!every now and then, there is some joke here that makes me laugh... good article btw!
about the overcloks, it looks like a future re-spin of the cypress running at 1ghz could overcome the Fermi.... it would be fun to see a 2 billion transistor GPU running faster than a 3 billion one....
Voo - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
The thing is compared to Cypress Fermi overclocks exceptionally well, especially considering the fact that when it first appeared I don't think anyone thought it would. Seems like Fermi should profit a lot more from a die shrink than cypress, but let's see what NI brings to the table.bobsmith1492 - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
As an electrical engineer, I wouldn't want to buy a card that is clocked so close to it usable limit. It's just begging for premature failures, especially at such high temperatures. A few months of dust build up and these cards will be pushing 120C, typically the level where components' lifespans are drastically reduced. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see video cards pushing much more horsepower without some serious form factor modifications.The0ne - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
Nope, most enthusiasts believe their system will run free of dirt and grime for years and years and temperatures will stay the same. Once a part is tainted it becomes harder and harder to have it stay cleaned :) Take CPU fan for example hahahaiamezza - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Old toothbrushes work brilliantly for cleaning dusty fans and heatsinks - to a 'good as new' state ;)Folterknecht - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
Hi Ryan!What BIOS did your GB HD5870 use? There are two availeble "F2" and "F3". From discussions in the german GB-Support-Forum regarding GB HD 5850 OC, which is using the same cooler as far as I can tell, new BIOS-Versions were created to deal with some issues including noise.
There have been many angry posts, because GB advertised this cooler as "SUPER SILENT"!
If your test sample used "F2" an update to "F3" and eventual changes in idle characteristics would be interesting, if the test sample is still available.
Thanks for this interesting review
Folterknecht
cactusdog - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
Gigabyte cant make a decent OC card. Just like their 4870 with the one speed noisy zalman fan and no fan adjustment. They just dont get it.I had high hopes for this new 5870 version but looks like they screwed up again. Apparently they released the card with one clock mode (flat out) no 2D clocks, no UVD clocks, just max clocks. As the previous poster said ,maybe the card in this review has the original bios.
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
We're using the F3 BIOS.NinjaGnome - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
I wish they would offer a card that either included a waterblock or came with no heatsink at all so the user can choose a waterblock or aftermarket cooler. I dont want to pay for an expensive oc version just to throw the block away so I can throw a waterblock on it.sirizak - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
Here you go: http://www.powercolor.com/us/products_features.asp...Also if you want to add aftermarket cooling I would suggest buying a reference card (with the full shroud, fan at the rear and AMD printed above the PCIe Connnector) most aftermarket cooler manufacturers are only supporting the reference design.
sirizak - Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - link
Something I think this review missed was VRM cooling on these non-reference cards, the reference HD 5870 provides superior VRM cooling compared to most non-reference cards and allows for Voltage Control. I have managed 950Mhz Core Stable on my reference card without adding any voltage.I would have loved to see some VRM temps for each card under load, and perhaps a description of the type of VRM cooling they are offering.
Other than that great review, I was tossing up about the MSI and Gigabyte when I was purchasing so I found this really interesting, if a little late for my decision making :)
Ryan Smith - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Unfortunately none of these cards are using VRMs that our existing tools can read temperatures from. This was particularly frustrating with the Gigabyte card, as we could see it throttling but couldn't see the temperature that was triggering it.dgz - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Guys, you should really use Left 4 Dead 2 instead of the original game as the sequel is way more intensive on the system. The visual difference may not be stunning but the hunger for performance is there.Jumalauta - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Very interesting roundup, thank you.Seeing how idle noise is basically The Gigabyte card's only flaw, I was wondering if you tried to remedy that by controlling the fan speed with MSI Afterburner software? It's VERY handy for creating custom fan speed curves. The only question is compatibility with Gigabyte's custom card.
sneakyB - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
This article comes at the best of time for me, I've been trying to decide for the last two weeks wich OCed 5870 to get. But I'm surprised that there's no Asus matrix in the review, maybe it's that we have it here in Europe and it's not on sale in the US ? I would have liked to see it compared to the Gigabyte, as my usual store has both for sale.FH123 - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Was the Gigabyte clocking down properly on idle? I have a an Asus 5850, based on the reference design. Once you attach 2 monitors it no longer clocks down to something like 157MHz core / 300MHz memory, but instead idles at full speed 700MHz core / 1000MHz memory with a consequent rise in noise levels, which first alerted me to the fact.Jumalauta - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
If you take a look at idle GPU temps, I'd say the problem is elsewhere.FH123 - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Agreed.Lonyo - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
You dropped Wolfenstein, one of the few OpenGL games, because of the way it responds, and yet you keep in Left 4 Dead, one of the most CPU limited games there is.Sounds like a great decision.
East17 - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
I think that there should be another chapter included in OC cards RoundUps :1)test the cards @ default settings (already done)
2)test the cards @ OC settings (already done)
3)try to see what PCB design and options are better by excluding the cooling limitation imposed by the specific coolers and test the cards @ OC setting WITH the best VGA cooler available at that time
I think this is a good idea and should be included in future reviews IMHO .
Have a nice day!
Jumalauta - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
You still wouldn't get anywhere due to GPU sample variance. You would need a lot of test samples of each variety to attain even remotely conclusive results.ajlueke - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
The fact that these cards are typically running around the $500 mark, which is the same price tag as an Nvidia GTX 480, is a deal breaker. You pay Fermi price without the Fermi performance. Stock 5870s can be had for $400 these days, and a sub 10% performance increase with a 25% price increase hardly seems worth it. It is possible to achieve similar overclocking results for less money and with less noise with a good after market cooler.Jediron - Saturday, May 22, 2010 - link
These are not cards for a gamer, but for people who make it a sport to beat the other guys 3Dmark results.Gamers, you'll see it hardly makes a difference, gameexperience is something else then raw, digital FPS numbers. Save yourself alot of cash and buy a default clocked card; that leaves you with enough money to buy your favorite game ;)
cauchy2k - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
People should not take into account this near 100 °C ,becuase you can increase fan speeds and lower temps a lot.hglazm - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Either you got a bad chip with the lightning, got an exceptional chip with the Toxic, or did something wrong when overclocking the lightningBecause both of mine hit 1ghz without issue. As well as three of the four 5770 HAWKs my friends have ordered (one hit 980 instead of 1020-1060).
Ninjahedge - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
It is always good to see this kind of thing being made and tested, but the thing that gets me is simple.This aint the Celery 300 days. You can't get the equivalent of a more expensive chip for half the price, boost it to 150% with a simple (was it multiplier?) switch and get 80%-90% of the more expensive brother.
I have not really seen much come out in the past few years that warrants throwing that much cash out on something that will be beaten for $100 less in 6 months.
Especially when there really is no game that would need it.
The fact that the makers are still comcentrating on giving you the fastest card that can show nose-hair and blackheads in 3D at 2560 resolution irritates me. Has there been any progress (or push for progress) in an EFFICIENT card that can do what the 4870, or 5800's can do for half the power? Passive (silent) cooling? Half the PRICE?
It would be great to get a card to use 1 6 pin additional power cable (hell, push it further, NO additional power) that would be able to fit into a compact case (Shuttle?) and not sound like a dust-buster in game.
Good article, but disappointing that this is still the direction card makers are going. (also sad that all that $$, all that noise and heat gets you so little in the end...)
Question, have you guys figured out a way to be able to rate the best Bang for the Watt? Some comparison taking compact, quiet, efficient cards and trying to rank them by speed, efficiency, ergonomics and price? Can that be done or is that too many variables?
mapesdhs - Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - link
Good post! I thoroughly agree. Reminds me of how pleased I was with the performance ofthe X1950 I bought in 2006 for 156 UKP, and then again later the excellent results obtained
from an 8800GT (Gigabyte Zalman, 700MHz core) which was only 120 UKP. Decent prices,
nice performance each time.
Prices now are crazy. I've given up waiting for a card that offers a reasonable speed boost
at any kind of similar price point, so instead I've bagged an extra identical 8800GT to have
SLI which should work quite well until the RAM limit becomes a factor (atm I'm not playing
games which need 1GB). I've done the same thing for my new PC build (i7 860), buying two
8800GTs which cost less than 100 UKP total.
As you say, it seems vendors are going all out for high cost cards, which is ironic given we're
supposed to be in the middle of a global recession. Who has the money to buy a $570 card
and sleep easy? On a tight budget, I managed to get some items 2nd-hand, saved a decent
amount (750W PSU 40% cheaper than new, WD VR 150GB half new price), and found an eBay
seller doing the i7 860 at a good price (205 UKP, almost 30 less than any other source) with
free shipping (item 270583690505; he has 5 left. Mine is only running at 3.8GHz atm, but I don't
have the proper fans yet).
When I bought the 8800GT in 2008, I doubled or tripled games fps rates compared to my old
X1950 using the same CPU/RAM (Athlon64 6000+, 4GB DDR2/800), for less than $200. Two
years on once more, doing the same thing isn't possible.
Ian.
Kaihekoa - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Anandtech really needs to get a reliable proofreader. Every article I read has multiple typos which obviously isn't very professional for such a highly regarded tech site. I would do it for free given the subject matter.austonia - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
These cards do not OC very well at all. I have a reference-design Sapphire 5850 from about a month after they came out, and it does 900/1300 at stock 1.08v, and 1000/1300 at 1.25v. You would think these 5870s with cherry-picked chips, high end components and cooling system could at least match a stock 5850. And there were quite a few people on overclock.net forums getting similar results. Anyway thanks Anandtech, good info.austonia - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
Please consider adding Metro 2033 to the benchmarks, with all of the eyecandy turned up it looks like a slideshow on my 5850. Must need a brutal amount of power. None of the games you are testing now are very challenging for a Fermi or 5850+.Kaihekoa - Thursday, May 20, 2010 - link
I would like to extend my thanks to Anandtech for doing an article about PC hardware instead of writing laptop reviews and copy/pasting press releases. I believe this is a topic of great interest for gamers and hardware enthusiasts: How much benefit do you get out of these pre-overclocked cards with big price premiums. As we can see you don't get much and certainly not enough to justify paying $100 or more extra. I just upgraded my Radeon 4870 to a 5850 that overclocks to 950/5000 without extra voltage. Oh, and I paid $225 for it on ebay meaning I got almost as much performance as these $500 cards for 55% less money.Etern205 - Friday, May 21, 2010 - link
Why no this?http://vr-zone.com/articles/retail-asus-matrix-587...
Ryan Smith - Friday, May 21, 2010 - link
I have one, but it just arrived, which was after the deadline for this article. We'll have a review of it up next week.Etern205 - Friday, May 21, 2010 - link
Looking forward to that article, can't wait to read it.swing848 - Saturday, June 26, 2010 - link
You may have come close to hitting ATI's next GPU when you mentioned "4890-style respin". Southern Islands is highly anticipated.