this may be the right place to ask: What's the difference between the Xeon and the (much cheaper) i7 processors? Couldn't you put an i7 into a Mac Pro?
I purchased a 2xQuad core mac in Jan 2008 and I would like to upgrade the cpu to the new Nehalem. Apple suggested it could be done but they don't do it. I contacted a number of Mac repair places and they said it can't be done. I realize that upgrading the cpu probably means upgrading the motherboard, but that's fine with me.
Any suggestions on where I could get this done or where I might get instructions for doing it myself?
If you’ve read our Nehalem articles you’ll know that each chip has three 64-bit wide memory controllers, thus you’ll want to install DIMMs in triplets. You can install four DIMMs, but accessing memory in the fourth module will be slower - something you’ll never notice if you’re wondering. ???
This is hindering me from buying a 4 channel UD3R X58 board. My main goal of an i7 build is for editing AVCHD files through Premiere Pro CS4. Being that tri channel will get me 6g and PP CS4 likes more memory, will adding memory to the 4th module screw things up?
Man, take your hackysack and go buy some laundry soap to clean the crap out of your drawers! You guy's talk about a couple thousand dollars like it's buying a damn house or some huge purchase LOL!
Macs are really cost efficient and yes... PC's are cheaper but who gives a damn! If you want to be cheap... be cheap! Hackintoshes (LOL) are just that... a POS and your getting what you pay for! You cheap asses probably hit your ol' ladies up for gas money to get to work hehe...
MACS RULE!
Just for fun I went to apples site and customized the mac pro, I just maxed out the hardware choices and then went to newegg and priced out an equivalent PC (Server board, with the same CPUs and everything except more RAM)
Total for the apple including shipping and tax is over $20,000
the newegg build is under $9,000
I bet my 920 build at 4.5ghz is faster than the mac pro though, and all for under $1000
wander over to the egg and buy a lian li. No flashy lights really, no idiot clear side panels. For some reason the hard drive access light and the power light are different colors on mine though.
You can get a combo case with a seasonic 550W power supply with it. I put a phenom II x4 3.2Ghz 16 Gigs of RAM and a 1 Gig 4870 in there with aftermarket cooling all around (air not liquid) and it cost me 900 bucks - all from the egg.
If you think you're going to find performance arbitrage basically anywhere in the market you couldn't be wrong-er. Just pick your price/performance point and stick to it.
With one big 'ol caveat to the arbitrage thing and that is: building your own system really does seem to be cheaper right now, and also I can't find component setups in the big name companies right now that make me quite happy.
I miss when Dell Outlet used to be affordable. I'm afraid these Macs are just waaay out of range of my meagre salary.
Everybody talks about how expensive the Mac Pro is, but, has somebody compared with other brands? Look at this:
I customize two Dell Precision Workstations with the same components as the base configurations Apple offers for the Mac Pro.
The results!!
Mac Pro Quad-Core: $2,499.00
Dell Precision T5500: $3,427
Mac Pro 8-Core: $3,299.00
Dell Precision T7500: $3,427
BOTH APPLE OFFERS ARE BETTER!!!!!
Both with the same processors, same amounts of memory at the same speed.
The only difference is instead of a NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 with 512MB you get a 256MB NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 295. And that Dell options have hard drives with less capacity, 500GB vs 640GB. I also added the second Gigabit Ethernet card to both Dells. Dell has no bluetooth option and you may need to add a sound card to them.
Remember, you get a more expensive PC with windows Vista and an ugly chasis.
So when you hypothetically created your i7 hackintosh, what were it's specs? I'm thinking about doing this (as a thought experiment only of course) and I'm wondering what such a system would price out. How would I know what motherboard to use to be compatible?
Why not run the same benchmarks, like Premier pro cs 4 and Photoshop on a Core i7 PC?
I think the results will surprise a low of people. I have sen comparisons done with Protools - a highly threaded proffessional DAW ( Digital Audio Workstation) 8 core nehalem Mac Pro (16 thread) vs an OCed i7 920 (3.6 ghz) and the 920 beat the mac pro by roughly 20%. This is probably due to much higher clock speeds, much higher memmory speeds and bandwidth, and much more efficient OS! (yes Windows XP). All this for about $2000 less.
If display cards had anything to do with this test the price/performance difference would be even higher. This is testing audio processing only.
I think if Anand could take the time and bench an OCed or stock i7 920 vs 8 core mac pro on the apps used with the same content we will all be finally able to throw the mac 'CREATIVITY' marketing slogan out the window for good.
I use macs every other day and am writing this on a mac (dual G5, but still). I also use PCs on a daily basis. all for work no play. I have been doing this for years, and honestly I don't understand why people like macs. they are SIMPLER not BETTER.
OSX has nice animation, and the iPhone is cool. Bravo Apple. Now can we please get a REAL bench for these apps PC vs Mac so we can all go to sleep knowing we actually do have the best system for $1000, even if it was designed by Antec+Seasonic+Corsair+Termalright+Gigabyte and so on... (and not buy Apple)
What this article deserves, is a slap to Apple because of their memory configurations.
The low end Mac Pro comes with four (4) memory slots. That's utterly ridiculous, considering that Nehalem supports triple channel memory. Adding 8GB (4x2GB) of memory will bring the memory bandwidth down somewhat, which is unacceptable for a $2500 machine.
The 8 core version, on the other hand, comes with 8 slots, again not a multiple of 3. With DDR3 SDRAM 4GB sticks being so ridiculously expensive, this makes any larger memory configs for the Mac Pro extremely expensive.
There's one more gripe: The server CPUs Apple uses could use RDIMM or UDIMM memory, which is _a LOT_ cheaper than normal DDR3 SDRAM mostly because it's being used in server configurations where it's not unheard of to have 192GB of ram in a machine, no one wants to pay gazillions for the 8GB DDR3 SDRAM sticks that would require.
Buying a server board with 18 RDIMM/UDIMM memory slots for building a similar workstation as the Mac Pro would be an insanely much better solution for anything that requires memory to operate (running multiple test VMs for instance). I think it's pretty sad that apple is not even trying to cater professionals with this "Mac Pro" toy they've built. I really would like to use an apple computer, but these drawbacks made me use a Hackintosh, which has its own drawbacks.. but for workstation use none are so bad when you compare it to the Mac Pro.
So, this is a good computer after changing the CPU and buying a second video card. How could someone say that this is OK? I don't think that Apple notebooks are expensive, you really get a premium notebook with all premium components, but this seems very overpriced.
I like Apple and OSX a lot, but the case and interior design don't cost that much, you can build your own computer for much less, and with one of the awesome cases reviewed here at anandtech.
Also, what about GPU performance and comparison?
Third party GPUs? How? Expansion slot available?
Power, Noise, heat?
What about Boot Camp?
Type of memory?
And I would really appreciate a price and performance comparison with other workstations and what you can build for that money.
Two 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors!
12GB (6 x 2GB) DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) memory
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 with 2GB GDDR3 memory
8X Blu-Ray Writer
250GB Vertex SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD)
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s hard drive
22X DVD/CD double-layer writer with LightScribe support
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series 7.1 Channels PCI-Express Sound Card
Thermaltake Xaser VI Black Aluminum Computer Case
Re:
"I couldn’t wait any longer and I ended up building a Hackintosh based on Intel’s Core i7. Literally a day after I got it up and running, Apple announced the new Nehalem-EP based Mac Pro."
More details, please.
List of parts used & cost, the method used for installing OSX, & a "bang for buck" comparison with Apple's equivalent machine.
TIA
That's a good question. Also, how much time did you spend getting the Hackintosh up and running?
And for the final question, how much do you believe your time to be worth? I know how much I am paid per hour at my job. It doesn't take that long of hassling with a Hackintosh to make it worth my while to just buy the Mac instead. Include time spent when I go to update the OS and have to research which updates will work with my particular Hackintosh, plus those times that I accidentally do an update that I didn't fully research and hosed my setup. Oh, and make sure that I factor in some time for when my soundcard just didn't quite work right after a reboot...
Ultimately, it boils down to the triplet: Time, Money, Productivity - pick two.
Wait, people actually upgrade their Mac? I thought they just buy a new one when it gets real slow. At least that's what happens at the places I worked at. Buy a brand new Mac, use it for a few years, buy a new one and send the old one to surplus. We do buy memory from micron instead of doing it through Apple though.
You said, "Between the high cost of the adapter and the high likelihood of problems, I’d suggest simply getting another video card if you want to have multiple 30” displays connected to your Mac Pro. Apple sells the GeForce GT 120 for $150 as an upgrade option, and at least with it each 30” display will be driven by its own frame buffer, which should make for smoother Exposé and Dashboard operation."
If you allow non-Apple displays, many higher-end displays have DisplayPort connectors - see the Dell 3008WFP, for example. A mini-DP to DP cable is under $20 including shipping.
The mini-DP to DVI adapter is too clunky and tends to unplug itself. The mini-DP to HDMI adapter is under $20 and is slightly less clunky. Neither are as elegant as the mini-DP to DP cable.
My name is Alfredo and I am from Denmarksland.
I have recently started a computer company called Lemon computers.
I wish to send you my top of the line LemonPro for review.
LemonPro Specs.
1xLemonPro superwhizzbanger professional motherboard (series 2)
Supports up to superfast DDR3 1066mhz ram. Has 2! Yes you read it right the first time 2! PCIE slots for the true computing professional.
1xLemonPro Core i7 920 cpu at 2.66ghz
Custom built by intel for lemon computers, you maybe able to get this cpu in other computers but ours are very "special" i7 920 cpu's.
3 Gig of Lemon DDR3 1066mhz ram
Super high performance memory hand picked from corsairs finest value select batchs.
1x Lemon 640gig 5400rpm High Performance Hard drive
Theres not enough porn on the net to fill this puppy up. Ultimate storage for the true professional.
1x Lemon/Nvidea 9500GT Graphics
Experience awesome crysis in ultra high detail at blazingly fast frame rates of up to 3 (a minute). It just doesnt get better than this.
1x LemonRay 18x Read 1x Write DVD player
For the true computing professional
Lemon computers, for the true computing professional, professional's need only apply. P.S. PROFESSIONAL!
*LemonPro pc's are fitted with the trademark LemonDP display connection, Unfortunately there is only one Monitor on the planet that has this style of connection (where that far ahead of the competition its SCARY!) and is available through Lemon for RRP $1200 (20inch display). Or a special custom built adapter can be used, available through Lemon RRP $100.
Hopefully you will supply my system with as good a review as those MacPro's. Also My system is 50 dollers cheaper than the Apple system, only $2449 RRP
Yours Professionally, Alfredo
Ok, I am not going to go down the biased track here, I am not a fanboi and never have been, I judge something on what it delivers at its given price.
But Honestly if this bloke from Lemon computers gave you the above system with a vista o/s for review with a $2500 price tag we all know what the resulting article would have to say about it.
Do I think your biased? No I don't. Do I think there are very large double standards at play? Absolutely.
I mean honestly what apple is providing is the equivalent of an $1000 PC. FOR $2500. This is a hardware analysis site is it not?
How can you possibly justify paying that sort of coin over and above an equivalent PC? Where is that extra $1500 worth of justification?
Answer me that question and I will eat my words.
There's a difference between tossing a bunch of parts in a bag and calling it a $1000 'system', and the kind of components and design you get from Apple (or other prime tier vendors for that matter). So let's not compare what you buy from the showroom floor with what you can do with the back room sweepings OK?
I wouldn't exactly define an i7 920 and an Asus or Gigabyte mobo "back room sweepings" though.
You must be talking about the housing, because the actual components (you know, those boards and chips that make up the computer) are the same (minus the heat spreader).
So yeah, for your own home built i7 system to match the Mac Pro in terms of "design", you might have to add a couple of hundred to your budget for a quality case and a quiet aftermarket CPU cooler, then spend 30 minutes doing some cable management after the built is finished. But a $1000 PC will *do* all the things the Mac Pro does, except look shiny and "professional" on the outside, which is not worth a $1000 - $1500 premium + no easy upgrade path, IMO.
The problem is that you can't actually buy a Core i7 computer from apple. You MUST buy the Xeon equivalent. Which drives the cost of the home built computer up significantly. That means that the Apple tax is no longer 1000+ dollars, and closer to about 750 dollars.
The other problem is that you're probably also the person who will complain that Alienware computers are overpriced. Or Falcon Northwest. Of COURSE they cost more - they're for a particular niche of the population that wants to run a fast computer and wants someone else to put them together and support them. In my experience, the support you get from Falcon Northwest or Alienware IS worth the cost if you aren't the type that likes to crack open your case.
The other problem is that the Apple hardware is also the only hardware that you can "easily" run OSX (after fighting trying to get OSX running with an i7 920, I can't say that it's easy at all).
You are essentially arguing that all high end workstations are the same. This is, unfortunately, not entirely true - the integrated package does matter to a significant number of businesses that want to run hardware. The initial cost of hardware is insignificant relatively to the support costs. Maybe Apple is cheaper than a home built computer that you'll have to employ someone to support the home builts. maybe it's cheaper to buy a bunch of Apples, and have a "dumber" tech to administer them with Apple's help.
theres no difference service/quality between "prime tier vendors" and a DIY built except for the warraty, which is useless in most cases. As far as Apple goes, they target a niche market which is why they can afford to charge this much for a box. Nobody in their right mind would pay this kind of money just to have a fast computer for everyday use.
Yep, the difference is $1500 and no amount of shininess, (almost) proprietary connectors or badges saying "Designed in California" (Made in China) can add enough value to justify the cost of what is relatively cheap hardware. Still, if you've got the money to burn and love Apple regardless...
I'd like to see if a $1000 Hackintosh would offer such a reduced experience, those who swear by Apple's OS shouldn't have to be so routinely taken from behind by a company they apparently love to the point of promoting the products for free (and ignore all the shortcomings).
how is it awesome, for the most part you have to use an adaptor, at a cost of 100 bucks.
oh and if you need to run a high res, since apple is 'cute' (why a mini display port on a desktop? why?) you need 2 cables just to get it connected? LOL
and if you need to use the adaptor you still have screws for dvi & vga.
Finally, do people really hate the screw contections? personally I love them, since there is almost zero chance of them falling out
1) You suggest that for someone wanting higher clocked processors in a Mac Pro, it's a better value to buy the base model, upgrade the processors, and eBay the old ones. But on the 8-core models, the stock CPUs don't have IHSs. Is there any market for these chips on eBay (besides other Nehalem Mac Pro owners who have fried their original processors ;-)?
2) Can a single socket Mac Pro be upgraded to a dual socket just by replacing the CPU board?
Starting from the base single-socket ($2500), you could get another W3520 off of eBay cheap ($~350) (possibly one already de-lidded), a dual-socket CPU board ($400), another heatsink ($?) and RAM ($~100), and it would come out far cheaper than Apple charges ($4700) for a Mac Pro with dual X5550s at 2.66 GHz. The total system TDP would be higher, but the already over-specced cooling system would just have to run a little louder.
The hard part of this plan is convincing a reseller or Apple Store to sell you a 2-socket CPU board and a heatsink, with only a 1-socket CPU board to trade. But, even if some cash had to be discreetly slipped into pockets to make it happen, you still stand to save $1000, which could buy a nice SSD and 24" monitor.
Two 2.26GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors
12GB (6 x 2GB) DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) memory
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s hard drives
250GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD)
22X DVD/CD double-layer writer with LightScribe support
8X Blu-Ray DVD Burner
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series 7.1 Channels PCI-Express Sound Card
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 with 2GB GDDR3 memory
Thermaltake Xaser VI Black Aluminum Computer Case
Piano-black 22" 2ms HDMI Widescreen w/LED Backlight LCD Monitor - w/webcam & speakers
Bonus! Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound Light Weight Circumaural USB Gaming Headset
Two 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors!
12GB (6 x 2GB) DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) memory
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s hard drive
250GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD)
22X DVD/CD double-layer writer with LightScribe support
8X Blu-Ray DVD Burner
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series 7.1 Channels PCI-Express Sound Card
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 with 2GB GDDR3 memory
Thermaltake Xaser VI Black Aluminum Computer Case
Piano-black 22" 2ms HDMI Widescreen w/LED Backlight LCD Monitor - w/webcam & speakers
Bonus! Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound Light Weight Circumaural USB Gaming Headset
I'm not sure what the author or others here are talking about when they say Apple's extremely outrageous prices are due to Intel's price hike. There is no price hike. There was no price hike. Either the author is misinformed or it's a straw-man technique being employed in order to justify and excuse Apple having gone off the deep end with their price scheduling. With so many of the comparisons in this article omitting the 2008 Mac Pro models all together and only comparing the 2009 to the 2006, I'm to believe the later.
Here are the prices of the respective chips at the time the respective Mac Pro machines were released:
2008 Models:
1 x 2.80GHz E5462 Harpertown: $797 ($2299 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.80GHz E5462 Harpertown: $797 x 2 = $1594 ($2699 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 3.00GHz X5472 Harptertown: $958 x 2 = $1914 ($3599 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 3.20GHz X5482 Harpertown: $1279 x 2 = $2558 ($4399 overall Mac Pro price)
2009 Models:
1 x 2.66GHz W3520 Bloomfield: $284 ($2499 overall Mac Pro price)
1 x 2.93GHz W3540 Bloomfield: $562 ($2999 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.26GHz E5520 Gainestown: $373 x 2 = $746 ($3299 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.66GHz X5550 Gainestown: $958 x 2 = $1916 ($4699 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.93GHz X5570 Gainestown: $1386 x 2 = $2772 ($5899 overall Mac Pro price)
As you can see, there is no significant price hike and in fact Intel has provided a massive price REDUCTION in offering the Bloomfield line. This delivers a second more severe slap in the face from Apple to it's user base.
Just look at this price scheduling:
2006
Mac Pro Quad 2.0GHz $2,199 NEW
Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz $2,499 NEW
Mac Pro Quad 3.0GHz $3,299 NEW
2007
Mac Pro Quad 2.0GHz $2,199
Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz $2,499
Mac Pro Quad 3.0GHz $3,299
Mac Pro 8-core 3.0GHz $3,997 NEW
2008
Mac Pro Quad 2.8GHz (2008) $2,299 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.8GHz (2008) $2,799 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 3.0GHz (2008) $3,599 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 3.2GHz (2008) $4,399 NEW
2009
Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz $2,499 NEW
Mac Pro Quad 2.93GHz $2,999 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.26GHz $3,299 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.66GHz $4,699 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.93GHz $5,899 NEW
That's a $1,000 to $2,000 price hike on Apple's part and the first of it's kind in the past 10 as I've researched it. It might be due to poor sales or future economic projections, I have no idea. But it's unprecedented and completely unjustified by looking at part prices and other offerings in the industry.
I recently priced a DIY build and I could assemble a system with 18 DIMM slots, 6 PCIe slots, 36GB RAM, two quad-core 3.2GHz Nehalem, typical drives, cards, and case go for well under $5k. Apple wants $6K for much much less.
Thank you for posting this. I'm a frequent reader of Macrumors.com forums, and I actually made a similar chart showing the very similar launch prices of Xeon 5400/5500 when new and how the massive $1000+ increase in price of the new Mac Pros are totally unjustified and ridiculous.
It would still be overpriced, but a far better deal if they tossed the 2.26Ghz in favor of the 2.53Ghz or 2.66Ghz as standard, with the 2.8Ghz and 2.93Ghz as the upgrades. (the 3.2Ghz is clearly too hot) This would be far more similar to the Mac Pro configurations in the past, where the base CPU + 2 upgrade levels usually represented the 3 fastest CPUs available (or nearly that).
To show the huge discrepancy, there are 6!! CPU levels above the 2.26Ghz 5520. (2.4, 2.53, 2.66, 2.8, 2.9, 3.2)
I was looking forward to maybe picking up a Mac Pro for the office, (software dev) but I'm not sure now. If the HAckintosh crew gets to a certain level of progress that offers no-hassle installation and complete compatibility with mainstream components, I can see many enthusiasts who want to dualboot OSX using high-clock speed Core i7 boxes, with loads of ram, SSDs, RAID'd drive storage, GTX285s, etc, and still spending far less than the single-cpu 2.93Ghz Mac Pro.
Too many sites get in mac vs pc battles any time a mac review goes up. I'm not going to bash apple and talk about how overpriced things are. But honestly, I've always been a pc person. In the past apple did have some innovations to tout and some people could justify the premium price. But looking at these 2009 models, it's a disgrace. for 3k+ we are getting 640gb HDDs, video cards with 512mb frame buffers, and 6gb of ram. And in return you get a xeon processor. For a company that tries to cut a niche out by offering the highest performance for a premium, this seems like a joke to me. Its like taking a chevy cobalt and putting a corvette engine in it, then trying to sell it for the price of a Ferrari. It seems to me when it comes to the desktop market these days, people are paying thousands of dollars because they like apples OS, and overlooking the hardware as long as the case looks cool and has a xeon sticker on it. Unfortunately most tech sites these days are in love with apple and just pretend that everything is fine and dandy. I am glad that you pointed out the deficiencies Anand, but I think all apple fans should be more vocal and actually show some disgust for your beloved company for once. If you are going to pay all that money, you should atleast get some innovation to show for it.
Since when has apple been all about the performance of the hardware? Apple is about the performance of the hardware/software package. These aren't corvettes or ferraris for you to zip around fun-town with. These are peterbilts and mack trucks to get work done with. This is a PRO model. Just because it LOOKS like a regular pc with it's big boxy structure, doesn't mean it's your home PC. I will concede that the author of the article does make some valid points about the lack of SSD and video card options. The fact is though, the mac pro isn't for the l337 who build SLI OC'd gaming rigs.
If you don't understand that Apple rarely makes an upgrade without having an unveiling party about it, then you just don't understand Apple. I'm not saying that that fact is a good thing, but they certainly generate more press and hype than other computer makers.
Interesting that you state, " I'm not going to bash apple and talk about how overpriced things are." then you go on to do virtually noting but this.
Are Apple's Mac Pro systems over priced? Yes. Are they more over priced than historically for Apple? Yes. However, as Anand points out this seems to be a trend with all tier one vendors. The equivalent machines out of HP and Dell are similarly or higher priced. Is this justifiable? No. They are all just gouging their high end users.
No, I did not bash apples price. I did not compare it to comperable PCs. I clearly pointed out that there is no innovation here to demand the premium price. But people like you are so used to having to defend your purchase based on this argument, thats all you've got. This is not a mack truck by any means. Real workstations have more than 3gb of ram standard. Real workstations have more than a measly 640gb HDD. Real workstations come with high speed SSD or SAS system disks. Yes, it is capable of high end graphics work. And yes, you can get a dell for $8000. But you are making that comparison not me. If you want to make it, go see what you get for 4k from dell. And those dells are not marketed at the main stream. If I walk into a dell store a salesman isn't going to try and sell me a workstation because I am a power user. When I walk into an apple store there is no hesitation to push me in the direction of a 3k+ purchase. But none of that was my point and not what was discussed in my comment. It was simply, where is my innovation that apple is supposed to be all about? I'm not talking about some quad sli water cooled system, I'm talking about simple things like 6GB of ram standard. SSD system drives. Atleast a TB of storage. Seriously, this is for power users and it comes standard with 640GB? I will admit apple gets some things right. And they are damned good at marketing. But please people, you don't have to kiss steves ass all the way to the bank. Don't make excuses for products that are clearly lacking. Otherwise your precious macs will just continue the long slide into bland vanilla every day systems and you will still be paying premium prices for everyday merchandise.
"The Lexar reader is FireWire 800 (woo!) and the iSight is FireWire 400; I can’t use the iSight on the new Mac Pro."
You can still use your Firewire 400 iSight camera on the Mac Pro's Firewire 800 ports. All you need is a Firewire 400 to Firewire 800 cable. I know that Belkin makes just such a cable and I even purchased one at my local Apple Store here in Raleigh, NC.
I have actually had something similar happen to a socket I was working on. It was a matter of finding a sewing needle and moving each "pin" back to the original position.
It would be interesting to try swapping the 2-socket tray with a 1-socket Mac Pro, and see if it works(?) Would be cheaper to buy the 2-socket board and upgrade yourself, no?
Are FB-DIMMs going to disappear from the market? While at first it doesn't sound Mac-related, original MacPro owners might soon be running out of memory upgrade options (though I doubt they've held out this long to upgrade). It wasn't cheap to start with, but it seems like it was Band-Aid technology. The IMC was the answer, but FB-DIMMs were a stop-gap until Nehalem-Xeons could arrive. Perhaps a memorial article for the technology is needed?
Ok so I get it, even the "cheap" Mac Pro uses a Xeon, not an i7... But for all intents and purposes, it's an i7 920.
Who in their right mind would pay $2,500 for a i7 920 system with 3GB of RAM, 640GB HDD and a rebranded Geforce 9500 GT? You can build a similar PC (or hackintosh) with the same specifications for the a fraction of the price - in fact you could also bump the RAM to 6GB and throw in a 1TB drive and a 4870 1GB or 4890 if you wanted and still stay *well* below that price point, even if using quality components and case.
Another great in depth review. Your experiences with upgrading the processors were particularly interesting although I don't think it'd be something I would try.
I just wanted to suggest you Boot Camp the Mac Pro and run the benchmarks needed to add 2x2.26GHz Gainestown and 2x2.93GHz Gainestown results to the Anandtech Bench. It might also be interesting to get a sample of the new nVidia GTX285 Mac Edition. It would certainly address the 1GB of VRAM concerns and would be cheaper than getting the HD4870 if you need 2 dual-link DVI ports since you don't need to buy that finicky adapter. There really aught to be DVI to mini-DP adapters though for people who still want to use the 24" LED display.
Oh and for interest, there turns out to be a 3D benchmark comparing the various iPhones to other cell phones. It's called GLBenchmark and needless to say, the iPhone 3G S is a screamer. They are also detecting the iPhone 3G S GPU as a PowerVR SGX 535.
Actually, the Nehalem-EX's octo-core possibility is a no-go for now. It is a future product and has not been launched yet.
Also, a little bit of nitpicking, but it won't use LGA1366 like these Xeons, it'll use LGA1567, because each CPU will sport a 4-channel memory controller.
In addition, it'll sport 4 QPI links, and its intended target are 4-way and 8-way systems, not really 2-way systems. A few rumors exist about some integrators being interested in 2-socket systems, though we're still a few months from actually seeing any LGA1567 motherboard on display, AFAIK. All we saw was an Intel Demo about it.
Don't know if Apple intends to go with 2-socket nehalem-exs, anyway, because when Nehalem-EX really hits the market, there'll also be the 6-core westmeres, I think. In any case, we're way beyond a reasonable number of cores for the typical user. :D
MacPro's really aren't meant for typical users ;)
Scientific, Video/Movies, 3D, and advanced users who may do many things including the already mentioned, or many things at once. Always other things I can be doing while some video is rendering, including playing some Civ 4, or starting the next video project, researching upgrades & repairs for customers, stuff like that.
Although I personally may wait for the 2nd gen Nehalem MacPro's before I upgrade from my first gen MacPro, other than raw processing power, it does most of what I need efficiently enough.
Apple lists the Mac Pro as supporting DDR3 1066 only, yet the higher speed CPUs should support 1333. Have you tested this? I have an application that would love faster memory.
Secondly, while Apple's prices are much higher than previous models (due to Intel's CPU prices, as you note), have you compared similar machines from Dell/HP? _Significantly_ more expensive: a T5500 with 2x2.93 GHz and 12 GB ram is $8000 (before discounts). Otherwise, the only way to get decent prices is through second/third tier vendors, or building one yourself. Sure CPU/RAM upgrades have always been this way, but Intel's extreme prices on Nehalem make this very obvious.
"While you could stick Clovertown into the first generation Mac Pros, you couldn’t upgrade them to Harpertown without hardware modifications to the system (don’t ask me what they are :)..)."
AFAIK, nobody has ever discussed being able to do this. ANyone have an idea what he's referring to?
Upgrading CPUs: I have the 2.26 GHz 8-core model. I cannot afford to take the risk, but I'd love to upgrade it someday if it was less risky.
I think you should carefully measure the thickness of Xeon processors with and without the heat spreader (using an outside micrometer or something), and add washers to compensate for the needed spacing where the screws mate the heatsink to the processor board. This would properly relieve strain from the CPU package and allow you to tighten the hex nuts to the proper (standard) tension. Based on your photos it looks like that should work.
Turbo mode: I was able to get valid convincing single-threaded benchmark results (demonstrating Turbo mode in action) by using the "Processor.prefPane" from Apple's Developer Tools. This is a System Preferences module that is placed in /Developer/Extras/PreferencePanes when you install the Dev Tools, and you copy it into /Library/PreferencePanes to enable it. Then use System Preferences to access it. You can turn off hyperthreading and can selectively disable any combination of cores 2-8 (#1 is always on). See for example goo.gl/7MZm or goo.gl/OH4K
- Robert Munafo - mrob.com/pub/comp/mac-models.html
I recently tried to upgrade the E5520 procs in my 2009 Octo Nehalem with a set of X5560 (2.8GHz). I was able to get the machine to power up with no error lights. However I didn't get a chime and it refused to boot.
In reading Anand's article on upgrading with a set of X5570 chips I didn't see any mention of the X5560 as an option. Is there something written into the bios that prevents this from posting.
The other thing I question is the added height created by the Integrated Heat Spreader doesn't give a solid connection between the daughter board and the heat sink fan plug. Has anyone run across a how-to on removing the IHS?
Any insight would be appreciated as I have access to several set's of X5560.
I purchased two w3565 LG 1366 processors for my 8 core dual 2.26 GHz 2009 Mac Pro 4,1. These CPUs are 3.2 Ghz.
The install was easy but the machine would not boot up. I re-installed the two 2.26 original CPUs and the system returned to normal. Any idea why it didn't work on an 8 core system? I had the same experience as user Highjinx.
As a 2009 Mac Pro owner, I've followed the upgrade discussions for these machines carefully for some time. There appears to be a lot of discussion and instruction on how to swap out processors but usually involving lidded CPU's instead, which pose potential risks of damaging the motherboard in the process.
I found an interesting video tutorial on Youtube today that clearly explains, while demonstrating, how to effectively remove the soldered IHS off the CPU, with the cleaning off of the solder, without damaging it.
It seems to me that this would be a lot easier to do than having to modify the heat sync pads and add washers etc., all the while allowing the processors to stay cooler due to the removal of the IHS.
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wackazong - Wednesday, September 9, 2009 - link
Hello,this may be the right place to ask: What's the difference between the Xeon and the (much cheaper) i7 processors? Couldn't you put an i7 into a Mac Pro?
sdevenshire - Saturday, August 29, 2009 - link
Hi,I purchased a 2xQuad core mac in Jan 2008 and I would like to upgrade the cpu to the new Nehalem. Apple suggested it could be done but they don't do it. I contacted a number of Mac repair places and they said it can't be done. I realize that upgrading the cpu probably means upgrading the motherboard, but that's fine with me.
Any suggestions on where I could get this done or where I might get instructions for doing it myself?
TIA,
Shane
529th - Thursday, July 30, 2009 - link
If you’ve read our Nehalem articles you’ll know that each chip has three 64-bit wide memory controllers, thus you’ll want to install DIMMs in triplets. You can install four DIMMs, but accessing memory in the fourth module will be slower - something you’ll never notice if you’re wondering. ???This is hindering me from buying a 4 channel UD3R X58 board. My main goal of an i7 build is for editing AVCHD files through Premiere Pro CS4. Being that tri channel will get me 6g and PP CS4 likes more memory, will adding memory to the 4th module screw things up?
newrigel - Tuesday, July 28, 2009 - link
Man, take your hackysack and go buy some laundry soap to clean the crap out of your drawers! You guy's talk about a couple thousand dollars like it's buying a damn house or some huge purchase LOL!Macs are really cost efficient and yes... PC's are cheaper but who gives a damn! If you want to be cheap... be cheap! Hackintoshes (LOL) are just that... a POS and your getting what you pay for! You cheap asses probably hit your ol' ladies up for gas money to get to work hehe...
MACS RULE!
ditchmagnet - Monday, July 27, 2009 - link
Just for fun I went to apples site and customized the mac pro, I just maxed out the hardware choices and then went to newegg and priced out an equivalent PC (Server board, with the same CPUs and everything except more RAM)Total for the apple including shipping and tax is over $20,000
the newegg build is under $9,000
I bet my 920 build at 4.5ghz is faster than the mac pro though, and all for under $1000
moltentofu - Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - link
wander over to the egg and buy a lian li. No flashy lights really, no idiot clear side panels. For some reason the hard drive access light and the power light are different colors on mine though.You can get a combo case with a seasonic 550W power supply with it. I put a phenom II x4 3.2Ghz 16 Gigs of RAM and a 1 Gig 4870 in there with aftermarket cooling all around (air not liquid) and it cost me 900 bucks - all from the egg.
If you think you're going to find performance arbitrage basically anywhere in the market you couldn't be wrong-er. Just pick your price/performance point and stick to it.
Thanks for the awesome reviews as usual Anand!
moltentofu - Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - link
With one big 'ol caveat to the arbitrage thing and that is: building your own system really does seem to be cheaper right now, and also I can't find component setups in the big name companies right now that make me quite happy.I miss when Dell Outlet used to be affordable. I'm afraid these Macs are just waaay out of range of my meagre salary.
fmaste - Monday, July 20, 2009 - link
Everybody talks about how expensive the Mac Pro is, but, has somebody compared with other brands? Look at this:I customize two Dell Precision Workstations with the same components as the base configurations Apple offers for the Mac Pro.
The results!!
Mac Pro Quad-Core: $2,499.00
Dell Precision T5500: $3,427
Mac Pro 8-Core: $3,299.00
Dell Precision T7500: $3,427
BOTH APPLE OFFERS ARE BETTER!!!!!
Both with the same processors, same amounts of memory at the same speed.
The only difference is instead of a NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 with 512MB you get a 256MB NVIDIA® Quadro® NVS 295. And that Dell options have hard drives with less capacity, 500GB vs 640GB. I also added the second Gigabit Ethernet card to both Dells. Dell has no bluetooth option and you may need to add a sound card to them.
Remember, you get a more expensive PC with windows Vista and an ugly chasis.
fmaste - Tuesday, July 21, 2009 - link
And here is HPMac Pro Quad-Core: $2,499.00
Same specs configurable HP Z800 Workstation: $3,942.00
Mac Pro 8-Core: $3,299.00
Same specs configurable HP Z800 Workstation: $3,702.00
excalibur3 - Friday, July 17, 2009 - link
So when you hypothetically created your i7 hackintosh, what were it's specs? I'm thinking about doing this (as a thought experiment only of course) and I'm wondering what such a system would price out. How would I know what motherboard to use to be compatible?analog1 - Thursday, July 16, 2009 - link
Why not run the same benchmarks, like Premier pro cs 4 and Photoshop on a Core i7 PC?I think the results will surprise a low of people. I have sen comparisons done with Protools - a highly threaded proffessional DAW ( Digital Audio Workstation) 8 core nehalem Mac Pro (16 thread) vs an OCed i7 920 (3.6 ghz) and the 920 beat the mac pro by roughly 20%. This is probably due to much higher clock speeds, much higher memmory speeds and bandwidth, and much more efficient OS! (yes Windows XP). All this for about $2000 less.
If display cards had anything to do with this test the price/performance difference would be even higher. This is testing audio processing only.
I think if Anand could take the time and bench an OCed or stock i7 920 vs 8 core mac pro on the apps used with the same content we will all be finally able to throw the mac 'CREATIVITY' marketing slogan out the window for good.
I use macs every other day and am writing this on a mac (dual G5, but still). I also use PCs on a daily basis. all for work no play. I have been doing this for years, and honestly I don't understand why people like macs. they are SIMPLER not BETTER.
OSX has nice animation, and the iPhone is cool. Bravo Apple. Now can we please get a REAL bench for these apps PC vs Mac so we can all go to sleep knowing we actually do have the best system for $1000, even if it was designed by Antec+Seasonic+Corsair+Termalright+Gigabyte and so on... (and not buy Apple)
tstm - Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - link
What this article deserves, is a slap to Apple because of their memory configurations.The low end Mac Pro comes with four (4) memory slots. That's utterly ridiculous, considering that Nehalem supports triple channel memory. Adding 8GB (4x2GB) of memory will bring the memory bandwidth down somewhat, which is unacceptable for a $2500 machine.
The 8 core version, on the other hand, comes with 8 slots, again not a multiple of 3. With DDR3 SDRAM 4GB sticks being so ridiculously expensive, this makes any larger memory configs for the Mac Pro extremely expensive.
There's one more gripe: The server CPUs Apple uses could use RDIMM or UDIMM memory, which is _a LOT_ cheaper than normal DDR3 SDRAM mostly because it's being used in server configurations where it's not unheard of to have 192GB of ram in a machine, no one wants to pay gazillions for the 8GB DDR3 SDRAM sticks that would require.
Buying a server board with 18 RDIMM/UDIMM memory slots for building a similar workstation as the Mac Pro would be an insanely much better solution for anything that requires memory to operate (running multiple test VMs for instance). I think it's pretty sad that apple is not even trying to cater professionals with this "Mac Pro" toy they've built. I really would like to use an apple computer, but these drawbacks made me use a Hackintosh, which has its own drawbacks.. but for workstation use none are so bad when you compare it to the Mac Pro.
fmaste - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
So, this is a good computer after changing the CPU and buying a second video card. How could someone say that this is OK? I don't think that Apple notebooks are expensive, you really get a premium notebook with all premium components, but this seems very overpriced.I like Apple and OSX a lot, but the case and interior design don't cost that much, you can build your own computer for much less, and with one of the awesome cases reviewed here at anandtech.
Also, what about GPU performance and comparison?
Third party GPUs? How? Expansion slot available?
Power, Noise, heat?
What about Boot Camp?
Type of memory?
And I would really appreciate a price and performance comparison with other workstations and what you can build for that money.
Tutor - Thursday, July 16, 2009 - link
This is my dream machine at post #10. I call it MyHackedUpMac.Tutor - Thursday, July 16, 2009 - link
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=71393...">http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=71393...BoboGO - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Two 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors!12GB (6 x 2GB) DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) memory
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 with 2GB GDDR3 memory
8X Blu-Ray Writer
250GB Vertex SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD)
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s hard drive
22X DVD/CD double-layer writer with LightScribe support
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series 7.1 Channels PCI-Express Sound Card
Thermaltake Xaser VI Black Aluminum Computer Case
Sorry, no monitor included.
Ships: 3 days
Total Cost: $5833.00
vailr - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Re:"I couldn’t wait any longer and I ended up building a Hackintosh based on Intel’s Core i7. Literally a day after I got it up and running, Apple announced the new Nehalem-EP based Mac Pro."
More details, please.
List of parts used & cost, the method used for installing OSX, & a "bang for buck" comparison with Apple's equivalent machine.
TIA
erple2 - Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - link
That's a good question. Also, how much time did you spend getting the Hackintosh up and running?And for the final question, how much do you believe your time to be worth? I know how much I am paid per hour at my job. It doesn't take that long of hassling with a Hackintosh to make it worth my while to just buy the Mac instead. Include time spent when I go to update the OS and have to research which updates will work with my particular Hackintosh, plus those times that I accidentally do an update that I didn't fully research and hosed my setup. Oh, and make sure that I factor in some time for when my soundcard just didn't quite work right after a reboot...
Ultimately, it boils down to the triplet: Time, Money, Productivity - pick two.
Baked - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Wait, people actually upgrade their Mac? I thought they just buy a new one when it gets real slow. At least that's what happens at the places I worked at. Buy a brand new Mac, use it for a few years, buy a new one and send the old one to surplus. We do buy memory from micron instead of doing it through Apple though.xz4gb8 - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
You said, "Between the high cost of the adapter and the high likelihood of problems, I’d suggest simply getting another video card if you want to have multiple 30” displays connected to your Mac Pro. Apple sells the GeForce GT 120 for $150 as an upgrade option, and at least with it each 30” display will be driven by its own frame buffer, which should make for smoother Exposé and Dashboard operation."If you allow non-Apple displays, many higher-end displays have DisplayPort connectors - see the Dell 3008WFP, for example. A mini-DP to DP cable is under $20 including shipping.
The mini-DP to DVI adapter is too clunky and tends to unplug itself. The mini-DP to HDMI adapter is under $20 and is slightly less clunky. Neither are as elegant as the mini-DP to DP cable.
I make no claims for the Video card performance.
TonkaTuff - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Hello Mr Anandtech,My name is Alfredo and I am from Denmarksland.
I have recently started a computer company called Lemon computers.
I wish to send you my top of the line LemonPro for review.
LemonPro Specs.
1xLemonPro superwhizzbanger professional motherboard (series 2)
Supports up to superfast DDR3 1066mhz ram. Has 2! Yes you read it right the first time 2! PCIE slots for the true computing professional.
1xLemonPro Core i7 920 cpu at 2.66ghz
Custom built by intel for lemon computers, you maybe able to get this cpu in other computers but ours are very "special" i7 920 cpu's.
3 Gig of Lemon DDR3 1066mhz ram
Super high performance memory hand picked from corsairs finest value select batchs.
1x Lemon 640gig 5400rpm High Performance Hard drive
Theres not enough porn on the net to fill this puppy up. Ultimate storage for the true professional.
1x Lemon/Nvidea 9500GT Graphics
Experience awesome crysis in ultra high detail at blazingly fast frame rates of up to 3 (a minute). It just doesnt get better than this.
1x LemonRay 18x Read 1x Write DVD player
For the true computing professional
Lemon computers, for the true computing professional, professional's need only apply. P.S. PROFESSIONAL!
*LemonPro pc's are fitted with the trademark LemonDP display connection, Unfortunately there is only one Monitor on the planet that has this style of connection (where that far ahead of the competition its SCARY!) and is available through Lemon for RRP $1200 (20inch display). Or a special custom built adapter can be used, available through Lemon RRP $100.
Hopefully you will supply my system with as good a review as those MacPro's. Also My system is 50 dollers cheaper than the Apple system, only $2449 RRP
Yours Professionally, Alfredo
Ok, I am not going to go down the biased track here, I am not a fanboi and never have been, I judge something on what it delivers at its given price.
But Honestly if this bloke from Lemon computers gave you the above system with a vista o/s for review with a $2500 price tag we all know what the resulting article would have to say about it.
Do I think your biased? No I don't. Do I think there are very large double standards at play? Absolutely.
I mean honestly what apple is providing is the equivalent of an $1000 PC. FOR $2500. This is a hardware analysis site is it not?
How can you possibly justify paying that sort of coin over and above an equivalent PC? Where is that extra $1500 worth of justification?
Answer me that question and I will eat my words.
gorbag - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
There's a difference between tossing a bunch of parts in a bag and calling it a $1000 'system', and the kind of components and design you get from Apple (or other prime tier vendors for that matter). So let's not compare what you buy from the showroom floor with what you can do with the back room sweepings OK?JimmiG - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
I wouldn't exactly define an i7 920 and an Asus or Gigabyte mobo "back room sweepings" though.You must be talking about the housing, because the actual components (you know, those boards and chips that make up the computer) are the same (minus the heat spreader).
So yeah, for your own home built i7 system to match the Mac Pro in terms of "design", you might have to add a couple of hundred to your budget for a quality case and a quiet aftermarket CPU cooler, then spend 30 minutes doing some cable management after the built is finished. But a $1000 PC will *do* all the things the Mac Pro does, except look shiny and "professional" on the outside, which is not worth a $1000 - $1500 premium + no easy upgrade path, IMO.
erple2 - Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - link
The problem is that you can't actually buy a Core i7 computer from apple. You MUST buy the Xeon equivalent. Which drives the cost of the home built computer up significantly. That means that the Apple tax is no longer 1000+ dollars, and closer to about 750 dollars.The other problem is that you're probably also the person who will complain that Alienware computers are overpriced. Or Falcon Northwest. Of COURSE they cost more - they're for a particular niche of the population that wants to run a fast computer and wants someone else to put them together and support them. In my experience, the support you get from Falcon Northwest or Alienware IS worth the cost if you aren't the type that likes to crack open your case.
The other problem is that the Apple hardware is also the only hardware that you can "easily" run OSX (after fighting trying to get OSX running with an i7 920, I can't say that it's easy at all).
You are essentially arguing that all high end workstations are the same. This is, unfortunately, not entirely true - the integrated package does matter to a significant number of businesses that want to run hardware. The initial cost of hardware is insignificant relatively to the support costs. Maybe Apple is cheaper than a home built computer that you'll have to employ someone to support the home builts. maybe it's cheaper to buy a bunch of Apples, and have a "dumber" tech to administer them with Apple's help.
Hxx - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
theres no difference service/quality between "prime tier vendors" and a DIY built except for the warraty, which is useless in most cases. As far as Apple goes, they target a niche market which is why they can afford to charge this much for a box. Nobody in their right mind would pay this kind of money just to have a fast computer for everyday use.BushLin - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Yep, the difference is $1500 and no amount of shininess, (almost) proprietary connectors or badges saying "Designed in California" (Made in China) can add enough value to justify the cost of what is relatively cheap hardware. Still, if you've got the money to burn and love Apple regardless...I'd like to see if a $1000 Hackintosh would offer such a reduced experience, those who swear by Apple's OS shouldn't have to be so routinely taken from behind by a company they apparently love to the point of promoting the products for free (and ignore all the shortcomings).
zsdersw - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
How dare you criticize Apple for not including SSDs! Apple is perfect. Apple is God!All must genuflect to Pope Steve Jobs and all must buy his Jesus Phone.
Those who speak anything negative about Apple and/or those who do not recognize their supreme awesomeness will be excommunicated.
michal1980 - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
WTF?how is it awesome, for the most part you have to use an adaptor, at a cost of 100 bucks.
oh and if you need to run a high res, since apple is 'cute' (why a mini display port on a desktop? why?) you need 2 cables just to get it connected? LOL
and if you need to use the adaptor you still have screws for dvi & vga.
Finally, do people really hate the screw contections? personally I love them, since there is almost zero chance of them falling out
MrPIppy - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Two questions:1) You suggest that for someone wanting higher clocked processors in a Mac Pro, it's a better value to buy the base model, upgrade the processors, and eBay the old ones. But on the 8-core models, the stock CPUs don't have IHSs. Is there any market for these chips on eBay (besides other Nehalem Mac Pro owners who have fried their original processors ;-)?
2) Can a single socket Mac Pro be upgraded to a dual socket just by replacing the CPU board?
Starting from the base single-socket ($2500), you could get another W3520 off of eBay cheap ($~350) (possibly one already de-lidded), a dual-socket CPU board ($400), another heatsink ($?) and RAM ($~100), and it would come out far cheaper than Apple charges ($4700) for a Mac Pro with dual X5550s at 2.66 GHz. The total system TDP would be higher, but the already over-specced cooling system would just have to run a little louder.
The hard part of this plan is convincing a reseller or Apple Store to sell you a 2-socket CPU board and a heatsink, with only a 1-socket CPU board to trade. But, even if some cash had to be discreetly slipped into pockets to make it happen, you still stand to save $1000, which could buy a nice SSD and 24" monitor.
BoboGO - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Two 2.26GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors12GB (6 x 2GB) DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) memory
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s hard drives
250GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD)
22X DVD/CD double-layer writer with LightScribe support
8X Blu-Ray DVD Burner
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series 7.1 Channels PCI-Express Sound Card
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 with 2GB GDDR3 memory
Thermaltake Xaser VI Black Aluminum Computer Case
Piano-black 22" 2ms HDMI Widescreen w/LED Backlight LCD Monitor - w/webcam & speakers
Bonus! Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound Light Weight Circumaural USB Gaming Headset
Ships: 3 days
Total Cost: $3,429.92
rpmurray - Saturday, July 18, 2009 - link
Awesome!!!Please point me to the webpage where I can spec out a system.
BoboGO - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Two 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon "Nehalem" processors!12GB (6 x 2GB) DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) memory
1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s hard drive
250GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD)
22X DVD/CD double-layer writer with LightScribe support
8X Blu-Ray DVD Burner
X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series 7.1 Channels PCI-Express Sound Card
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285 with 2GB GDDR3 memory
Thermaltake Xaser VI Black Aluminum Computer Case
Piano-black 22" 2ms HDMI Widescreen w/LED Backlight LCD Monitor - w/webcam & speakers
Bonus! Virtual 7.1 Surround Sound Light Weight Circumaural USB Gaming Headset
Ships: 3 days
Total Cost: $6,073.92
ddobrigk - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Here's my take on this:http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/page-262853_10...">http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/page-262853_10...
Can't remember the exact price in USD, but it was around US$6000 too. And that's with a very-high-end cooling solution.
Tesselator - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
I'm not sure what the author or others here are talking about when they say Apple's extremely outrageous prices are due to Intel's price hike. There is no price hike. There was no price hike. Either the author is misinformed or it's a straw-man technique being employed in order to justify and excuse Apple having gone off the deep end with their price scheduling. With so many of the comparisons in this article omitting the 2008 Mac Pro models all together and only comparing the 2009 to the 2006, I'm to believe the later.Here are the prices of the respective chips at the time the respective Mac Pro machines were released:
2008 Models:
1 x 2.80GHz E5462 Harpertown: $797 ($2299 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.80GHz E5462 Harpertown: $797 x 2 = $1594 ($2699 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 3.00GHz X5472 Harptertown: $958 x 2 = $1914 ($3599 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 3.20GHz X5482 Harpertown: $1279 x 2 = $2558 ($4399 overall Mac Pro price)
2009 Models:
1 x 2.66GHz W3520 Bloomfield: $284 ($2499 overall Mac Pro price)
1 x 2.93GHz W3540 Bloomfield: $562 ($2999 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.26GHz E5520 Gainestown: $373 x 2 = $746 ($3299 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.66GHz X5550 Gainestown: $958 x 2 = $1916 ($4699 overall Mac Pro price)
2 x 2.93GHz X5570 Gainestown: $1386 x 2 = $2772 ($5899 overall Mac Pro price)
As you can see, there is no significant price hike and in fact Intel has provided a massive price REDUCTION in offering the Bloomfield line. This delivers a second more severe slap in the face from Apple to it's user base.
Just look at this price scheduling:
2006
Mac Pro Quad 2.0GHz $2,199 NEW
Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz $2,499 NEW
Mac Pro Quad 3.0GHz $3,299 NEW
2007
Mac Pro Quad 2.0GHz $2,199
Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz $2,499
Mac Pro Quad 3.0GHz $3,299
Mac Pro 8-core 3.0GHz $3,997 NEW
2008
Mac Pro Quad 2.8GHz (2008) $2,299 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.8GHz (2008) $2,799 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 3.0GHz (2008) $3,599 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 3.2GHz (2008) $4,399 NEW
2009
Mac Pro Quad 2.66GHz $2,499 NEW
Mac Pro Quad 2.93GHz $2,999 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.26GHz $3,299 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.66GHz $4,699 NEW
Mac Pro 8-core 2.93GHz $5,899 NEW
That's a $1,000 to $2,000 price hike on Apple's part and the first of it's kind in the past 10 as I've researched it. It might be due to poor sales or future economic projections, I have no idea. But it's unprecedented and completely unjustified by looking at part prices and other offerings in the industry.
I recently priced a DIY build and I could assemble a system with 18 DIMM slots, 6 PCIe slots, 36GB RAM, two quad-core 3.2GHz Nehalem, typical drives, cards, and case go for well under $5k. Apple wants $6K for much much less.
Something isn't right in Denmark!
winterspan - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Thank you for posting this. I'm a frequent reader of Macrumors.com forums, and I actually made a similar chart showing the very similar launch prices of Xeon 5400/5500 when new and how the massive $1000+ increase in price of the new Mac Pros are totally unjustified and ridiculous.
It would still be overpriced, but a far better deal if they tossed the 2.26Ghz in favor of the 2.53Ghz or 2.66Ghz as standard, with the 2.8Ghz and 2.93Ghz as the upgrades. (the 3.2Ghz is clearly too hot) This would be far more similar to the Mac Pro configurations in the past, where the base CPU + 2 upgrade levels usually represented the 3 fastest CPUs available (or nearly that).
To show the huge discrepancy, there are 6!! CPU levels above the 2.26Ghz 5520. (2.4, 2.53, 2.66, 2.8, 2.9, 3.2)
I was looking forward to maybe picking up a Mac Pro for the office, (software dev) but I'm not sure now. If the HAckintosh crew gets to a certain level of progress that offers no-hassle installation and complete compatibility with mainstream components, I can see many enthusiasts who want to dualboot OSX using high-clock speed Core i7 boxes, with loads of ram, SSDs, RAID'd drive storage, GTX285s, etc, and still spending far less than the single-cpu 2.93Ghz Mac Pro.
mcoady - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Firewire 800 works with 400 and 200. You just need a cable with the appropriate connectors, it will auto-negotiate the connection.Firewire rocks.
mesiah - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Too many sites get in mac vs pc battles any time a mac review goes up. I'm not going to bash apple and talk about how overpriced things are. But honestly, I've always been a pc person. In the past apple did have some innovations to tout and some people could justify the premium price. But looking at these 2009 models, it's a disgrace. for 3k+ we are getting 640gb HDDs, video cards with 512mb frame buffers, and 6gb of ram. And in return you get a xeon processor. For a company that tries to cut a niche out by offering the highest performance for a premium, this seems like a joke to me. Its like taking a chevy cobalt and putting a corvette engine in it, then trying to sell it for the price of a Ferrari. It seems to me when it comes to the desktop market these days, people are paying thousands of dollars because they like apples OS, and overlooking the hardware as long as the case looks cool and has a xeon sticker on it. Unfortunately most tech sites these days are in love with apple and just pretend that everything is fine and dandy. I am glad that you pointed out the deficiencies Anand, but I think all apple fans should be more vocal and actually show some disgust for your beloved company for once. If you are going to pay all that money, you should atleast get some innovation to show for it.TheFace - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Since when has apple been all about the performance of the hardware? Apple is about the performance of the hardware/software package. These aren't corvettes or ferraris for you to zip around fun-town with. These are peterbilts and mack trucks to get work done with. This is a PRO model. Just because it LOOKS like a regular pc with it's big boxy structure, doesn't mean it's your home PC. I will concede that the author of the article does make some valid points about the lack of SSD and video card options. The fact is though, the mac pro isn't for the l337 who build SLI OC'd gaming rigs.If you don't understand that Apple rarely makes an upgrade without having an unveiling party about it, then you just don't understand Apple. I'm not saying that that fact is a good thing, but they certainly generate more press and hype than other computer makers.
Shadowself - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
Interesting that you state, " I'm not going to bash apple and talk about how overpriced things are." then you go on to do virtually noting but this.Are Apple's Mac Pro systems over priced? Yes. Are they more over priced than historically for Apple? Yes. However, as Anand points out this seems to be a trend with all tier one vendors. The equivalent machines out of HP and Dell are similarly or higher priced. Is this justifiable? No. They are all just gouging their high end users.
mesiah - Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - link
No, I did not bash apples price. I did not compare it to comperable PCs. I clearly pointed out that there is no innovation here to demand the premium price. But people like you are so used to having to defend your purchase based on this argument, thats all you've got. This is not a mack truck by any means. Real workstations have more than 3gb of ram standard. Real workstations have more than a measly 640gb HDD. Real workstations come with high speed SSD or SAS system disks. Yes, it is capable of high end graphics work. And yes, you can get a dell for $8000. But you are making that comparison not me. If you want to make it, go see what you get for 4k from dell. And those dells are not marketed at the main stream. If I walk into a dell store a salesman isn't going to try and sell me a workstation because I am a power user. When I walk into an apple store there is no hesitation to push me in the direction of a 3k+ purchase. But none of that was my point and not what was discussed in my comment. It was simply, where is my innovation that apple is supposed to be all about? I'm not talking about some quad sli water cooled system, I'm talking about simple things like 6GB of ram standard. SSD system drives. Atleast a TB of storage. Seriously, this is for power users and it comes standard with 640GB? I will admit apple gets some things right. And they are damned good at marketing. But please people, you don't have to kiss steves ass all the way to the bank. Don't make excuses for products that are clearly lacking. Otherwise your precious macs will just continue the long slide into bland vanilla every day systems and you will still be paying premium prices for everyday merchandise.jamesst - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
"The Lexar reader is FireWire 800 (woo!) and the iSight is FireWire 400; I can’t use the iSight on the new Mac Pro."You can still use your Firewire 400 iSight camera on the Mac Pro's Firewire 800 ports. All you need is a Firewire 400 to Firewire 800 cable. I know that Belkin makes just such a cable and I even purchased one at my local Apple Store here in Raleigh, NC.
joelypolly - Monday, July 13, 2009 - link
I have actually had something similar happen to a socket I was working on. It was a matter of finding a sewing needle and moving each "pin" back to the original position.HilbertSpace - Monday, July 13, 2009 - link
It would be interesting to try swapping the 2-socket tray with a 1-socket Mac Pro, and see if it works(?) Would be cheaper to buy the 2-socket board and upgrade yourself, no?MonkeyPaw - Monday, July 13, 2009 - link
Are FB-DIMMs going to disappear from the market? While at first it doesn't sound Mac-related, original MacPro owners might soon be running out of memory upgrade options (though I doubt they've held out this long to upgrade). It wasn't cheap to start with, but it seems like it was Band-Aid technology. The IMC was the answer, but FB-DIMMs were a stop-gap until Nehalem-Xeons could arrive. Perhaps a memorial article for the technology is needed?JimmiG - Monday, July 13, 2009 - link
Ok so I get it, even the "cheap" Mac Pro uses a Xeon, not an i7... But for all intents and purposes, it's an i7 920.Who in their right mind would pay $2,500 for a i7 920 system with 3GB of RAM, 640GB HDD and a rebranded Geforce 9500 GT? You can build a similar PC (or hackintosh) with the same specifications for the a fraction of the price - in fact you could also bump the RAM to 6GB and throw in a 1TB drive and a 4870 1GB or 4890 if you wanted and still stay *well* below that price point, even if using quality components and case.
The Mac Pro isn't even shiny!
plonk420 - Tuesday, July 14, 2009 - link
did you read page 10?MrDiSante - Thursday, July 16, 2009 - link
Did you read his comment?ltcommanderdata - Monday, July 13, 2009 - link
Another great in depth review. Your experiences with upgrading the processors were particularly interesting although I don't think it'd be something I would try.I just wanted to suggest you Boot Camp the Mac Pro and run the benchmarks needed to add 2x2.26GHz Gainestown and 2x2.93GHz Gainestown results to the Anandtech Bench. It might also be interesting to get a sample of the new nVidia GTX285 Mac Edition. It would certainly address the 1GB of VRAM concerns and would be cheaper than getting the HD4870 if you need 2 dual-link DVI ports since you don't need to buy that finicky adapter. There really aught to be DVI to mini-DP adapters though for people who still want to use the 24" LED display.
http://www.glbenchmark.com/result.jsp">http://www.glbenchmark.com/result.jsp
Oh and for interest, there turns out to be a 3D benchmark comparing the various iPhones to other cell phones. It's called GLBenchmark and needless to say, the iPhone 3G S is a screamer. They are also detecting the iPhone 3G S GPU as a PowerVR SGX 535.
ddobrigk - Monday, July 13, 2009 - link
Actually, the Nehalem-EX's octo-core possibility is a no-go for now. It is a future product and has not been launched yet.Also, a little bit of nitpicking, but it won't use LGA1366 like these Xeons, it'll use LGA1567, because each CPU will sport a 4-channel memory controller.
In addition, it'll sport 4 QPI links, and its intended target are 4-way and 8-way systems, not really 2-way systems. A few rumors exist about some integrators being interested in 2-socket systems, though we're still a few months from actually seeing any LGA1567 motherboard on display, AFAIK. All we saw was an Intel Demo about it.
Don't know if Apple intends to go with 2-socket nehalem-exs, anyway, because when Nehalem-EX really hits the market, there'll also be the 6-core westmeres, I think. In any case, we're way beyond a reasonable number of cores for the typical user. :D
BrianMCan - Friday, July 17, 2009 - link
MacPro's really aren't meant for typical users ;)Scientific, Video/Movies, 3D, and advanced users who may do many things including the already mentioned, or many things at once. Always other things I can be doing while some video is rendering, including playing some Civ 4, or starting the next video project, researching upgrades & repairs for customers, stuff like that.
Although I personally may wait for the 2nd gen Nehalem MacPro's before I upgrade from my first gen MacPro, other than raw processing power, it does most of what I need efficiently enough.
mfago - Monday, July 13, 2009 - link
Apple lists the Mac Pro as supporting DDR3 1066 only, yet the higher speed CPUs should support 1333. Have you tested this? I have an application that would love faster memory.Secondly, while Apple's prices are much higher than previous models (due to Intel's CPU prices, as you note), have you compared similar machines from Dell/HP? _Significantly_ more expensive: a T5500 with 2x2.93 GHz and 12 GB ram is $8000 (before discounts). Otherwise, the only way to get decent prices is through second/third tier vendors, or building one yourself. Sure CPU/RAM upgrades have always been this way, but Intel's extreme prices on Nehalem make this very obvious.
austin512 - Saturday, May 1, 2010 - link
Hi Anand,Any word on if the W3680 will work in the 2009 Mac Pro?
rominator - Thursday, July 22, 2010 - link
"While you could stick Clovertown into the first generation Mac Pros, you couldn’t upgrade them to Harpertown without hardware modifications to the system (don’t ask me what they are :)..)."AFAIK, nobody has ever discussed being able to do this. ANyone have an idea what he's referring to?
mrob27 - Thursday, September 23, 2010 - link
Upgrading CPUs:I have the 2.26 GHz 8-core model. I cannot afford to take the risk, but I'd love to upgrade it someday if it was less risky.
I think you should carefully measure the thickness of Xeon processors with and without the heat spreader (using an outside micrometer or something), and add washers to compensate for the needed spacing where the screws mate the heatsink to the processor board. This would properly relieve strain from the CPU package and allow you to tighten the hex nuts to the proper (standard) tension. Based on your photos it looks like that should work.
Turbo mode:
I was able to get valid convincing single-threaded benchmark results (demonstrating Turbo mode in action) by using the "Processor.prefPane" from Apple's Developer Tools. This is a System Preferences module that is placed in /Developer/Extras/PreferencePanes when you install the Dev Tools, and you copy it into /Library/PreferencePanes to enable it. Then use System Preferences to access it. You can turn off hyperthreading and can selectively disable any combination of cores 2-8 (#1 is always on). See for example goo.gl/7MZm or goo.gl/OH4K
- Robert Munafo - mrob.com/pub/comp/mac-models.html
Auralwiz - Friday, July 13, 2012 - link
Did you ever try the 2.26 8 core CPU upgrade?I tired two w35675s and failed to boot. Is there two big of a speed increase limit?
Michael
Highjnx - Sunday, November 7, 2010 - link
I recently tried to upgrade the E5520 procs in my 2009 Octo Nehalem with a set of X5560 (2.8GHz). I was able to get the machine to power up with no error lights. However I didn't get a chime and it refused to boot.In reading Anand's article on upgrading with a set of X5570 chips I didn't see any mention of the X5560 as an option. Is there something written into the bios that prevents this from posting.
The other thing I question is the added height created by the Integrated Heat Spreader doesn't give a solid connection between the daughter board and the heat sink fan plug. Has anyone run across a how-to on removing the IHS?
Any insight would be appreciated as I have access to several set's of X5560.
todd-
Auralwiz - Friday, July 13, 2012 - link
I purchased two w3565 LG 1366 processors for my 8 core dual 2.26 GHz 2009 Mac Pro 4,1.These CPUs are 3.2 Ghz.
The install was easy but the machine would not boot up. I re-installed the two 2.26 original CPUs and the system returned to normal. Any idea why it didn't work on an 8 core system?
I had the same experience as user Highjinx.
Michael
Soren4 - Sunday, June 12, 2016 - link
As a 2009 Mac Pro owner, I've followed the upgrade discussions for these machines carefully for some time. There appears to be a lot of discussion and instruction on how to swap out processors but usually involving lidded CPU's instead, which pose potential risks of damaging the motherboard in the process.I found an interesting video tutorial on Youtube today that clearly explains, while demonstrating, how to effectively remove the soldered IHS off the CPU, with the cleaning off of the solder, without damaging it.
It seems to me that this would be a lot easier to do than having to modify the heat sync pads and add washers etc., all the while allowing the processors to stay cooler due to the removal of the IHS.
Here is the link for review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPhDfUkll-o
Thanks