Not sure if you guys at anandtech were just unaware of this or if you really are bias against Nvidia, but the GTS250 is WAY more card for the extra 10 bucks.
I've been planning something along the lines of your AMD Budget Build, to replace my deceased Athlon 64-3000 rig, so the Builder's Guide is quite timely.
Question: If you're not going to use a mobo with ACC, would the Phenom II X3 710 be the value choice or is the additional speed of the 720 worth the slight ($20) price difference?
I already have a Corsair TX650W PSU, since the $80 price AMIR was too good to pass up. I had planned to reuse my original Antec Sonata, but probably will get a Sonata Elite instead ($89 at my local Micro Center). Does anyone know of any problems with this combo?
I'm thinking of swapping the mobo for Gigabyte's AM3 version, since it's only $30 more and DDR3 isn't much more than DDR2 these days. I know DDR3 doesn't make much difference on the Phenom II platform, but it may be a reasonable upgrade even if AMD can't make any changes to the existing architecture or BIOS to take better advantage of it. I just have to figure out how tight my budget truly is, since I need to build now.
I am building something like this already. Maximum bang for buck is the BIOSTAR TFORCE TA790GX 128M, It has just about everything including two PCI-E x16 2.0 Slot (CFX x8), firewire, DVI, HDMI, VGA and the 790 and 750 chip sets. Also you can play most games with the eye candy turned off.
When combined with a X2 7850 it is $129 AR of $10, which I got. This is $3 cheaper than the Entry Level, with better processor and MB.
When combined with a X2 Phenom II X3 720 it is $199 AR of $10. This is same price as the Budget Level, with better MB.
When combined with a Phenom II X4 940 it is $250 AR of $10.
When combined with a Phenom II X4 955 it is $305 AR of $10. and it is on the list of compatible MBs
All with free shipping. This is same price as the Budget Level, with better MB. The only limit On games is a Power Supply big enough for your eventual graphics card.
I you build the entry level all you need is a new PS and faster GPU, to turn it into a gaming machine. For memory, You can either buy 1066 now, upgrade later, or leave it at 600. There is not a dramatic difference between 800 and 1066.
Let me just start by saying Anandtech has been my hardware education. I have a question for you experts though. I spend 8-10 hours a day on 3d CAD and Rendering and maybe 15 hours a week gaming. My current rig, dont laugh, is an old dual Xeon workstation. I would really like to replace it with the mid-level AMD system that you describe in this article. Here is my concern, every ATi gpu that I have ever had to work with has had problems with the hardware acceleration in CAD. If the acceleration is maxed, the cursor prompts become a garbled box. If I set the acceleration one step down, I get a stutter in when moving around in 3d, and obviously when gaming I get a gimped cursor. So I feel compelled to stick with Nvidia, even if I have to pay a premium. Have the newer ATi cards fixed this problem? What combination of parts can I put together to come up with the performance, overclock ability, and base system price of the mid level AMD system described in this article that uses a good Nvidia card?
first might i add that there is no such thing as "gaming speakers"
no speakers are good for gaming.. the only way to go is headphones.. now obviously this is entry level but at least shell out a few more dollars for headphones if you are going to insert it with the title "gaming"
Unlike the AMD side, there are not any standout CF boards that fit within our budget guidelines for this article. That said, I like the DFI BI P45-T2RS at $107, ASRock P45XE at $90, Biostar TForce TP45HP at $100, and my favorite P45 board, the Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P at $130 but $110 with a rebate right now.
With the last BIOS update, the DFI LP JR P45-T2RS at $110 is an interesting choice as it is an uATX format and works well in a SFF system, especially with two HD4770 cards. I have not tested the ECS BS P45T-A, but it seems to have positive comments around the forums (looking at price compared to performance/quality) for $82 with the MIR.
For an AMD CPU there are lots of good Crossfire X motherboard choices. One geed choice is the Asus M4A78 Plus which sells for just $79 so it still fits the budget very well.
Choosing an Intel board with dual PCIe x16 slots is a lot more difficult. I have asked Gary Key, our Motherboard Editor, to comment on an Intel choice.
As the previous poster stated that the Gigabyte g41 mobo listed has only 2 DIMM slots and not 4 as pictured in the article. This is one of the main reasons I prefer AMD mobo's over most Intel based mobo's. AMD's mobo's "usually" have more options included for a given price (usually less than Intel based ones). This isn't always true, but I'd say that 80-90% of the time it is true.
Anyone know of any good links to the Sigma 500w PSU?? I'm just curious how well it does under testing or in real world situations. I try and keep up on good PSU's and I'm having a hard time finding reviews for the Sigma PSU listed in this review. I've read some on their other offerings >650w, but can't seem to find one for the 500w level.
We had the correct Gigabyte G41 photo in the images, but the wrong link. THat has been corrected and you will now see the small image with the two dimm slots, which is all available on the $65 G41 MB.
The 2 dimm slots can easily handle our recommended 4GB of memory. If you want more than 4GB you will need a more expensive motherboard.
I happen to be specing out a computer that is also using the GA-G41M-ES2L, however the picture posted looks to be that of a GA-EP45-UD3R. A key difference is the 4 DIMM slots on the GA-EP45-UD3R vs the 2 DIMM slots on the GA-G41M-ES2L.
I know the main point of this article was main system recommendations, but I would suggest you do some basic research before recommending some of the other bits to go with it.
The recommendation of the Logitech EX110 wireless keyboard and mouse set literally left me open-mouthed. Just because it has the Logitech name doesn't mean it is a quality product. I had an EX110 for a day. The keyboard was DOA, and the mouse both felt and acted like the very cheap optical mouse it was (when left stationery, the mouse pointer slowly creeped to one side, and sometimes the mouse pointer jumped to the edge of the screen). And that's before the batteries. The EX110 is known to eat batteries very quickly, so you should add the cost of some NiMH rechargeables (and the charger if necessary) to the system build cost. My overall impression of it (the keyboard didn't work but I still got a feel for how the keyboard felt) was that it was bargain-bin no-name product, which Logitech have foolishly stuck their name on to capture some of the low-end market.
Spend a touch more on the keyboard and mouse and you can get products which perform much better, like the LX-6 mouse which can run off a single AA cell for two or three months of heavy use (or you can put two in for double the life as they are connected in parallel), instead of using two of them in a week or so. As for the keyboard, any RF wireless keyboard with sufficient range should be fine as even the cheap ones don't eat batteries (there is no potentially power-draining LED or laser needed on a keyboard), and an HTPC is unlikely to be used for serious typing duties.
Apart from that small point about what I guess was a blind "this is cheap and is wireless from a good company" recommendation of the EX-110, it was an excellent article.
Ah yeah, one other thing made me smile: on the page 3 (Intel entry-level) about the Asus P5QL-CM mobo:
"It is not an overclocking demon with our E5200/E7200 being limited to the 345FSB range due to the chipset, but that is more than enough headroom (4.16GHz with the E5200) for most users."
This is the entry level system costed at around US$300 for the base system, and you feel the need to mention the recommended CPU with that mobo will probably not be able to be overclocked beyond 4.16GHz from its stock 2.5GHz! Good grief, if it were an overclocking-system guide, then you might mention that, buy you are talking about what is an over 70% overclock limitation in what is an entry-level box! Seriously-- a 70% overclock limitation because of the mobo in an entry-level box.
We have bought 3 of the EX110 sets for student computers here at work. All have worked on arrival, and none eat batteries excessively (couple months per charge). The keyboard isn't the highest quality, but my biggest concern for HTPC use would be the range. They seem to be limited to a few feet, which would mean the receiver would have to be buried in the couch or something.
I've built a $350 (tower only) AMD PC with on-board graphics using that HEC case. It's really nice looking for the price. The front panel looks grea, well finished. And the steel is sturdy and everything inside is nicely finished. This is really a great value case.
I believe that the NVIDIA audio drivers are for the HDMI output. I know that's the case on ATI cards that support HDMI. So, if you want HDMI with audio you would need to install both drivers.
(Feel free to make fun of me if I'm wrong, though!)
A few other learning experiences I had:
- Although the M3N78 PRO has a 3-pin connector for the "PWR" fan, there doesn't seem to be any way to control the speed on that fan. It DOES control the speed on "CHA" fan.
- BIOS settings - TLB fix should be disabled; Q-fan must be enabled for the CPU fan to use the Cool n Quiet software, even if you're not using AISuite (which has the Q-fan utility). In fact, you can't use both the Cool n Quiet and AISuite utilities, so I didn't install AISuite.
I love you guys, you just built a decent Intel entry-level for $301!!
If you happen to have a case/psu/HDD/optical/OS/RAM from an older build you can upgrade with the 4770 for under $300.
(for most people that is what I would recommend, you can buy an older Gateway/eMachines, with a real mATX case, for $100, thus taking care of all of the base requirements, then add the CPU/Mobo/RAM and 4770 and get a decent system out of it for under or around $500)
If you are scrounging for the money you can start with a Celeron chip for $30 and then move up as the budget allows, same with RAM, start with a single 2GB stick if you are really strapped, or a 2x1GB kit.
It is freaking insane how much is available for so little, more so than ever before. (for less than a new current-gen video game console you could upgrade your rig to play current games).
Actually, now that you mention it I have upgraded and/or built several systems with the eMachines/Gateway power supplies and have been very pleased. I have had the Celeron 430/420/440 overclocked past 3ghz on these supplies, with a voltmodded 7900GS @650mhz core clock and no issues at all, no lockups with 3Dmark runs, no issues with Prime95 stress testing.
They are rated accurately, are quiet, and inexpensive.
If you are using a Celeron 440 with a 4770 it should be just fine, the PSU calculator says 158watts for the 440 with a 4670 (4770 is not yet a choice).
On my regular system I run a PC Power Silencer 470, and I highly recommend it if you plan to add to the system with overclocked Duals or Quads. But I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a cheap system to start with on the lower TDP processors and lighter video cards.
I figure that these older systems came with a P4 or Athlon 90nm in the first place, so a low-power single or quad on 45nm isn't going to be a problem as long as you aren't using a power hungry video card or a rack of hard drives.
The problem is with Circle of Trust and not our links. Our link engine tries to analyze what you are seeking and route it to the lowest priced vendor it knows about. Often that is Newegg.
Circle of trust misreads the forwarding as not completely trustworthy, which is not correct. Our buying links are as reliable as any you will find. They are just analyzed and routed and not direct.
So it's pretty much a different keyboard with a touchpad for more money? I suppose they could have recommended a DiNovo mini as well, I'd imagine the input devices used are definitely part of the "personal touch" mentioned for the HTPCs.
59.99 would still keep them under there stated budget and 90 dollars less than the Dinovo keyboard while taking up less space, using less batteries and providing better range than RF.
"The WD Green is a variable speed energy saving design"
Unless I'm very much mistaken, that WD drive does not vary its rotation speed. Their original "5400-7200" RPM claims were purely a marketing thing, a shorthand way of saying "5400RPM power consumption with 7200RPM performance". WD no longer bothers to claim their drives vary in speed, instead merely listing it as "IntelliPower" and nothing more.
Saying it's variable speed is good marketing for people who don't see anything beyond RPM, but as AnandTech isn't on WD's payroll it seems a little out of place here. ;)
What intellipower means is that the caviar green line is engineered to meet a power target, not a (rotational) speed target. They guarantee that the speed is at least 5400rpm tho.
If the power budget is 7w, and the current design allows this by spinning the disks at 5800rpm, then that is what you get. The next design revision could bump up the speed to 6100rpm while keeping the same power budget (for example, optically shrunk controller chips, or increased density platters -> less platters needed for the same capacity -- both save power which can be spent increasing rotational speed). That's why you have the caviar green EACS, EADS, ...
I think the .05% of people who will run VT with an entry level system sporting Win7 with XP mode are making much to do about nothing in this case. Yes, VT support is important for certain sectors but this in an entry level guide for the masses, most of whom have no idea what VT support even means and could care less if they did.
Anyway, it actually appears some thought went into this guide compared to the previous $800 guide. So good job to the editors who actually did some work instead of mailing in their choices this time.
I would rather see a separate HTPC guide explore choices from the ION up to the i7 and include CableCard, Tuners, NAS, and other components built around a true HTPC.
There is no better choice for an HTPC motherboard than MSI's Maui board on an AMD platform. And DDR2 is still cheaper than DDR3. That would be my recommendaton anyway.
Also agree with the above poster regarding Intel's lack of virtualization support.
That is the way it is on the Intel side. We have to go up to the $169+ range to get VT on Intel and quite frankly, maybe 1% of people might ever run XP mode in Win7.
If running the Windows Virtual PC under Windows 7 for XP Mode is important to you, then moving to the E8x00 range or the E6x00 are the best VT options. That would blow the Budget out the door, and make the Intel selections not competitive in the Budget Range.
Do you work for AMD? This is a really minor nag for the vast majority of our readers, and as I'm sure you aware, for a Budget PC if this feature really matters to you then go for an AMD system in the budget price range.
I think their point was/is that there is no mention of it in the article. It is nice to know what you get and what you don't get for these kind of systems. I don't think many will need the VT feature, but it could have still been presented in the article for those that might need it. I wouldn't change the recommendations, but just a small blurb about it would probably suffice.
Of course, if they read the comments, there is plenty of mention of it so it doesn't really matter anymore.
We had strict budget numbers to meet for this guide. We had to select the entry level Intel processors due to cost and still provide a decent set of components around it. We added a statement about VT support to the processor descriptions.
This will be a boon to those using non-Microsoft OSes for our HTPC's XBMC, my HTPC OS of choice has supported nVidia's accelerated video playback for quite awhile now. Unfortunately, players have not been able to take advantage of AMD/ATI's Linux drivers due to AMD/ATI being slow to release specs/headers. Acelleration on nVidia is supported in most major Linux video players by default, all you have to do is have the nVidia binary driver installed.
It's probably worth mentioning that a core i7 makes a great cpu in an HTPC. While it blows the budget, if you are looking to upscale DVDs using ffdshow (or the like) to fit your 52" screen, I would suggest that you do not skimp on the cpu power. While ffdshow is a nightmare to get properly configured (thousands of options, no consistent recommendations), once you do, you can have a viewing experience close to that of an oppo. However, ffdshow can be a resource hog, and thus I recommend pushing the cpu spec as high as you can aford.
1. Size of the screen is not directly related to resolution (and thus scaling power needed). There are large plasma screens with the same resolution as a 17" LCD. A modern 52" TV will 'only' have a resolution of 1920x1080, and as such BR will need no scaling, and decoding DVDs is such a light load that there's plenty left for upscaling.
There's a reason media tanks do not use super-fast general purpose cpus. They just aren't needed for playing back stuff, even with scaling.
The only valid reason to push cpu power is for transcoding.
2. Ideal = low power, noise, heat, consumption. Not something one would associate with an i7.
Nowadays, even though I have a HTPC, I'm of the opinion you're better of with a media server/transcoder somewhere in a back room and a networked media tank next to the screen instead of a single device to do both tasks.
biostar t-series motherboard amd athlon x2 3.0ghz 4gb ram 500watt moduler psu decent case nvidia gtx geforce 260 896mb video card xp pro $600 after rebate $750 in the first place changed cpu from 3ghz to 4.5ghz a great gaming rig for the money....smoken. I had keyboard,mouse,and 19inch viewsonic
With these Intel systems people will not be able to do hardware virtualization of Windows XP from within Windows 7, but people with AMD systems should be alright.
I think you're talking about a very small group of people that will even need that feature. Virtual XP is a "fix" from MS that's only for older programs that refuse to work right with Win7, and even then you're running with the equivalent of old unaccelerated GPUs. If you have a program that works with Vista, it should be fine on Win7. If you need virtualization that badly, though, by all means make sure you buy a CPU that supports hardware VT. (Intel will be releasing updated versions of many CPUs with VT enabled in the near future.)
Assuming a computer is on an average of 8 hours a day, what cost savings is potentially realized when using a 45nm processor in lieu of a 65nm processor?
Heck, I'm still on a 90nm Opteron 170 so anyway I could lie to myself, by 'saving' money upgrading, would be appreciated.
From our http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?...">Athlon X2 7850 vs. Core 2 E5300 article, idle power for the Intel system will be around 123W vs. 126W for the Intel system. Load power favors Intel by a larger margin, at 148W vs. 188W. If you're like most users and average 90% idle/10% load (possibly even less than that), it would work out to an average power draw of 125.5W for Intel and 132.2W for AMD.
Eight hours per day, 365.25 days per year, and a cost of $0.10 per kWhr thus yields a total of $38.62 for AMD and $36.67 for Intel (based on these systems). The bigger concern would be potentially higher noise levels under load, I think, unless you plan on running something like Folding@Home in the background.
Recently LG has created an e-ips panel (an ips panel that allows more light through thus you don't need a larger backlight.)
It has already begun to appear in monitors including the dell 2209wa. Unfortunately prices have gone up on this monitor due to high demand, it is now near 280 in price when it was down to 240 when it first launched.
At $280, that's probably one of the best compromises between price and quality you're likely to see. It's ironic that Dell doesn't even mention the IPS panel in their technical specs... aren't they proud of that fact?
LG had (has) plans to make larger size versions of the e-ips panels but I haven't heard anything new for the last 3 months on them. To my knowledge only the dell 2209wa uses the lg e-ips panel.
Like your editors, I am excited about the 4770 also. I have one sitting on my desk next to my computer. The reason it is not yet IN the computer? I can't find drivers for it. Sapphire (the flavor I purchased) does not have any on their website, nor does AMD. Do you happen to know of a good source for the drivers?
The 9.5 release should be out very shortly (within a week is what I was told) and will offer full HD4770 support under Win7. After testing the 9.5 beta for the last week, I found it improves performance and compatibility across the board over the beta Vista CD drivers.
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Hrel - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - link
Why spend 100 dollars on that card when you can get the GTS250 for 10 DOLLARS MORE?!! That's right, just 10 bucks. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...Or, if you run your monitor at a stupidly high resolution for some reason, you can get the 1GB version for only 125. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
Not sure if you guys at anandtech were just unaware of this or if you really are bias against Nvidia, but the GTS250 is WAY more card for the extra 10 bucks.
dndavis57 - Saturday, May 23, 2009 - link
I've been planning something along the lines of your AMD Budget Build, to replace my deceased Athlon 64-3000 rig, so the Builder's Guide is quite timely.Question: If you're not going to use a mobo with ACC, would the Phenom II X3 710 be the value choice or is the additional speed of the 720 worth the slight ($20) price difference?
I already have a Corsair TX650W PSU, since the $80 price AMIR was too good to pass up. I had planned to reuse my original Antec Sonata, but probably will get a Sonata Elite instead ($89 at my local Micro Center). Does anyone know of any problems with this combo?
I'm thinking of swapping the mobo for Gigabyte's AM3 version, since it's only $30 more and DDR3 isn't much more than DDR2 these days. I know DDR3 doesn't make much difference on the Phenom II platform, but it may be a reasonable upgrade even if AMD can't make any changes to the existing architecture or BIOS to take better advantage of it. I just have to figure out how tight my budget truly is, since I need to build now.
Lummox - Sunday, May 24, 2009 - link
I am building something like this already. Maximum bang for buck is the BIOSTAR TFORCE TA790GX 128M, It has just about everything including two PCI-E x16 2.0 Slot (CFX x8), firewire, DVI, HDMI, VGA and the 790 and 750 chip sets. Also you can play most games with the eye candy turned off.When combined with a X2 7850 it is $129 AR of $10, which I got. This is $3 cheaper than the Entry Level, with better processor and MB.
When combined with a X2 Phenom II X3 720 it is $199 AR of $10. This is same price as the Budget Level, with better MB.
When combined with a Phenom II X4 940 it is $250 AR of $10.
When combined with a Phenom II X4 955 it is $305 AR of $10. and it is on the list of compatible MBs
All with free shipping. This is same price as the Budget Level, with better MB. The only limit On games is a Power Supply big enough for your eventual graphics card.
I you build the entry level all you need is a new PS and faster GPU, to turn it into a gaming machine. For memory, You can either buy 1066 now, upgrade later, or leave it at 600. There is not a dramatic difference between 800 and 1066.
PS all prices on NEW EGG
links
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?...">http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?...
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?...">http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?...
http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/491-pheno...">http://www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/491-pheno...
For a few bucks more the Foxconn A7DA-S has two x16 and two x8 slots. no on board video
pashbe1 - Friday, May 22, 2009 - link
Let me just start by saying Anandtech has been my hardware education. I have a question for you experts though. I spend 8-10 hours a day on 3d CAD and Rendering and maybe 15 hours a week gaming. My current rig, dont laugh, is an old dual Xeon workstation. I would really like to replace it with the mid-level AMD system that you describe in this article. Here is my concern, every ATi gpu that I have ever had to work with has had problems with the hardware acceleration in CAD. If the acceleration is maxed, the cursor prompts become a garbled box. If I set the acceleration one step down, I get a stutter in when moving around in 3d, and obviously when gaming I get a gimped cursor. So I feel compelled to stick with Nvidia, even if I have to pay a premium. Have the newer ATi cards fixed this problem? What combination of parts can I put together to come up with the performance, overclock ability, and base system price of the mid level AMD system described in this article that uses a good Nvidia card?Hrel - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - link
you should get the GTS250 from Nividia, it only costs $110 after rebate; and it's MORE card for the money. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...Here's the 1GB version, since that may be helpful with CAD. Still only 125; both reliable companies.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
PC Reviewer - Thursday, May 21, 2009 - link
first might i add that there is no such thing as "gaming speakers"no speakers are good for gaming.. the only way to go is headphones.. now obviously this is entry level but at least shell out a few more dollars for headphones if you are going to insert it with the title "gaming"
second thing is that case isnt very good. This is on sale for $54 and the quality is way better...
http://pcreviewer.org/cheap-antec-300-computer-cas...">http://pcreviewer.org/cheap-antec-300-computer-cas...
nordicpc - Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - link
Hey guys, the X2 Black Editions don't ship with a stock heatsink. Be sure to pick up a Freezer 64 or something for it.Gary Key - Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - link
The 7750 and 7850BE retail units we received from Newegg both had heatsinks.jospoortvliet - Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - link
Guys,I would love to see a few comparative benchmarks added to these systems - just to see how the entry-level Intel and AMD compare, for example...
Gary Key - Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - link
early June.. ;)bupkus - Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - link
Could you list a Crossfire motherboard option for those who think of a budget system as one that would allow a second HD4770 for future upgrade?Gary Key - Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - link
Hi,Unlike the AMD side, there are not any standout CF boards that fit within our budget guidelines for this article. That said, I like the DFI BI P45-T2RS at $107, ASRock P45XE at $90, Biostar TForce TP45HP at $100, and my favorite P45 board, the Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P at $130 but $110 with a rebate right now.
With the last BIOS update, the DFI LP JR P45-T2RS at $110 is an interesting choice as it is an uATX format and works well in a SFF system, especially with two HD4770 cards. I have not tested the ECS BS P45T-A, but it seems to have positive comments around the forums (looking at price compared to performance/quality) for $82 with the MIR.
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - link
For an AMD CPU there are lots of good Crossfire X motherboard choices. One geed choice is the Asus M4A78 Plus which sells for just $79 so it still fits the budget very well.Choosing an Intel board with dual PCIe x16 slots is a lot more difficult. I have asked Gary Key, our Motherboard Editor, to comment on an Intel choice.
PC Reviewer - Monday, May 18, 2009 - link
id change the video card to an hd 4890 if you could throw in the extra money..http://pcreviewer.org/new-radeon-hd-4890-video-car...">http://pcreviewer.org/new-radeon-hd-4890-video-car...
Lunyone - Monday, May 18, 2009 - link
As the previous poster stated that the Gigabyte g41 mobo listed has only 2 DIMM slots and not 4 as pictured in the article. This is one of the main reasons I prefer AMD mobo's over most Intel based mobo's. AMD's mobo's "usually" have more options included for a given price (usually less than Intel based ones). This isn't always true, but I'd say that 80-90% of the time it is true.Anyone know of any good links to the Sigma 500w PSU?? I'm just curious how well it does under testing or in real world situations. I try and keep up on good PSU's and I'm having a hard time finding reviews for the Sigma PSU listed in this review. I've read some on their other offerings >650w, but can't seem to find one for the 500w level.
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - link
We had the correct Gigabyte G41 photo in the images, but the wrong link. THat has been corrected and you will now see the small image with the two dimm slots, which is all available on the $65 G41 MB.The 2 dimm slots can easily handle our recommended 4GB of memory. If you want more than 4GB you will need a more expensive motherboard.
Shocker1322 - Sunday, May 17, 2009 - link
I happen to be specing out a computer that is also using the GA-G41M-ES2L, however the picture posted looks to be that of a GA-EP45-UD3R. A key difference is the 4 DIMM slots on the GA-EP45-UD3R vs the 2 DIMM slots on the GA-G41M-ES2L.PrinceGaz - Friday, May 15, 2009 - link
I know the main point of this article was main system recommendations, but I would suggest you do some basic research before recommending some of the other bits to go with it.The recommendation of the Logitech EX110 wireless keyboard and mouse set literally left me open-mouthed. Just because it has the Logitech name doesn't mean it is a quality product. I had an EX110 for a day. The keyboard was DOA, and the mouse both felt and acted like the very cheap optical mouse it was (when left stationery, the mouse pointer slowly creeped to one side, and sometimes the mouse pointer jumped to the edge of the screen). And that's before the batteries. The EX110 is known to eat batteries very quickly, so you should add the cost of some NiMH rechargeables (and the charger if necessary) to the system build cost. My overall impression of it (the keyboard didn't work but I still got a feel for how the keyboard felt) was that it was bargain-bin no-name product, which Logitech have foolishly stuck their name on to capture some of the low-end market.
Spend a touch more on the keyboard and mouse and you can get products which perform much better, like the LX-6 mouse which can run off a single AA cell for two or three months of heavy use (or you can put two in for double the life as they are connected in parallel), instead of using two of them in a week or so. As for the keyboard, any RF wireless keyboard with sufficient range should be fine as even the cheap ones don't eat batteries (there is no potentially power-draining LED or laser needed on a keyboard), and an HTPC is unlikely to be used for serious typing duties.
Apart from that small point about what I guess was a blind "this is cheap and is wireless from a good company" recommendation of the EX-110, it was an excellent article.
Ah yeah, one other thing made me smile: on the page 3 (Intel entry-level) about the Asus P5QL-CM mobo:
"It is not an overclocking demon with our E5200/E7200 being limited to the 345FSB range due to the chipset, but that is more than enough headroom (4.16GHz with the E5200) for most users."
This is the entry level system costed at around US$300 for the base system, and you feel the need to mention the recommended CPU with that mobo will probably not be able to be overclocked beyond 4.16GHz from its stock 2.5GHz! Good grief, if it were an overclocking-system guide, then you might mention that, buy you are talking about what is an over 70% overclock limitation in what is an entry-level box! Seriously-- a 70% overclock limitation because of the mobo in an entry-level box.
strikeback03 - Monday, May 18, 2009 - link
We have bought 3 of the EX110 sets for student computers here at work. All have worked on arrival, and none eat batteries excessively (couple months per charge). The keyboard isn't the highest quality, but my biggest concern for HTPC use would be the range. They seem to be limited to a few feet, which would mean the receiver would have to be buried in the couch or something.pirspilane - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - link
Yes, the range is a problem. The EX110 is better suited for desktop use.I put the RF receiver on the top rear of my armoire, since the cord wouldn't reach to the front. Reception was erratic from only 6 feet away.
It works OK now that I moved the receiver to the front of the armoire on top of the TV shelf.
Zak - Friday, May 15, 2009 - link
I've built a $350 (tower only) AMD PC with on-board graphics using that HEC case. It's really nice looking for the price. The front panel looks grea, well finished. And the steel is sturdy and everything inside is nicely finished. This is really a great value case.Z.
pirspilane - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I installed both the NVIDIA HD Audio driver and the Realtek HD Audio driver. Do I need both? What's the difference?Also, does the LG Blu-ray drive include software for playing Blu-ray, or do I need to buy a separate app. If so, what would you recommend?
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I believe that the NVIDIA audio drivers are for the HDMI output. I know that's the case on ATI cards that support HDMI. So, if you want HDMI with audio you would need to install both drivers.(Feel free to make fun of me if I'm wrong, though!)
pirspilane - Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - link
You're absolutely right.A few other learning experiences I had:
- Although the M3N78 PRO has a 3-pin connector for the "PWR" fan, there doesn't seem to be any way to control the speed on that fan. It DOES control the speed on "CHA" fan.
- BIOS settings - TLB fix should be disabled; Q-fan must be enabled for the CPU fan to use the Cool n Quiet software, even if you're not using AISuite (which has the Q-fan utility). In fact, you can't use both the Cool n Quiet and AISuite utilities, so I didn't install AISuite.
nubie - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I love you guys, you just built a decent Intel entry-level for $301!!If you happen to have a case/psu/HDD/optical/OS/RAM from an older build you can upgrade with the 4770 for under $300.
(for most people that is what I would recommend, you can buy an older Gateway/eMachines, with a real mATX case, for $100, thus taking care of all of the base requirements, then add the CPU/Mobo/RAM and 4770 and get a decent system out of it for under or around $500)
If you are scrounging for the money you can start with a Celeron chip for $30 and then move up as the budget allows, same with RAM, start with a single 2GB stick if you are really strapped, or a 2x1GB kit.
It is freaking insane how much is available for so little, more so than ever before. (for less than a new current-gen video game console you could upgrade your rig to play current games).
strikeback03 - Friday, May 15, 2009 - link
Would you really trust the PSU in an old emachines/gateway? Esp. if adding a 4770, which likely means using a 4pin to PCI-E power adaptor?nubie - Friday, May 15, 2009 - link
Actually, now that you mention it I have upgraded and/or built several systems with the eMachines/Gateway power supplies and have been very pleased. I have had the Celeron 430/420/440 overclocked past 3ghz on these supplies, with a voltmodded 7900GS @650mhz core clock and no issues at all, no lockups with 3Dmark runs, no issues with Prime95 stress testing.They are rated accurately, are quiet, and inexpensive.
Also, look at what you are asking of them: 1 hard drive, 1 optical drive, 1 35 watt processor. According to: http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine">http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine that is only 215 watts for an e5200 system with a 4830, whereas the Gateway supplies are rated to 250 watt.
If you are using a Celeron 440 with a 4770 it should be just fine, the PSU calculator says 158watts for the 440 with a 4670 (4770 is not yet a choice).
On my regular system I run a PC Power Silencer 470, and I highly recommend it if you plan to add to the system with overclocked Duals or Quads. But I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a cheap system to start with on the lower TDP processors and lighter video cards.
I figure that these older systems came with a P4 or Athlon 90nm in the first place, so a low-power single or quad on 45nm isn't going to be a problem as long as you aren't using a power hungry video card or a rack of hard drives.
barnierubble - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Hi,All the links in the component lists in the latest Under $825 buyers guide have a poor rating in Web of Trust so I would not buy anything from them.
Wesley Fink - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
The problem is with Circle of Trust and not our links. Our link engine tries to analyze what you are seeking and route it to the lowest priced vendor it knows about. Often that is Newegg.Circle of trust misreads the forwarding as not completely trustworthy, which is not correct. Our buying links are as reliable as any you will find. They are just analyzed and routed and not direct.
aftlizard - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I wouldn't, and don't. I use this which gives me much better range than my old RF mouse and keyboard, and it saves with clutter.http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
strikeback03 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
So it's pretty much a different keyboard with a touchpad for more money? I suppose they could have recommended a DiNovo mini as well, I'd imagine the input devices used are definitely part of the "personal touch" mentioned for the HTPCs.aftlizard - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
59.99 would still keep them under there stated budget and 90 dollars less than the Dinovo keyboard while taking up less space, using less batteries and providing better range than RF.GeorgeH - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
"The WD Green is a variable speed energy saving design"Unless I'm very much mistaken, that WD drive does not vary its rotation speed. Their original "5400-7200" RPM claims were purely a marketing thing, a shorthand way of saying "5400RPM power consumption with 7200RPM performance". WD no longer bothers to claim their drives vary in speed, instead merely listing it as "IntelliPower" and nothing more.
Saying it's variable speed is good marketing for people who don't see anything beyond RPM, but as AnandTech isn't on WD's payroll it seems a little out of place here. ;)
Spoelie - Friday, May 15, 2009 - link
What intellipower means is that the caviar green line is engineered to meet a power target, not a (rotational) speed target. They guarantee that the speed is at least 5400rpm tho.If the power budget is 7w, and the current design allows this by spinning the disks at 5800rpm, then that is what you get. The next design revision could bump up the speed to 6100rpm while keeping the same power budget (for example, optically shrunk controller chips, or increased density platters -> less platters needed for the same capacity -- both save power which can be spent increasing rotational speed). That's why you have the caviar green EACS, EADS, ...
coda6 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I agree, I would love to see an article on Anands HTPC set up, or at least a discussion on the possibilities of the current HTPC tech.goinginstyle - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Back to the HTPC stuff, on page 6, your recommendation is ASUS but the pic is a Gigabyte board from the looks of it.Gary Key - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Fixed.... :)goinginstyle - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I think the .05% of people who will run VT with an entry level system sporting Win7 with XP mode are making much to do about nothing in this case. Yes, VT support is important for certain sectors but this in an entry level guide for the masses, most of whom have no idea what VT support even means and could care less if they did.Anyway, it actually appears some thought went into this guide compared to the previous $800 guide. So good job to the editors who actually did some work instead of mailing in their choices this time.
I would rather see a separate HTPC guide explore choices from the ION up to the i7 and include CableCard, Tuners, NAS, and other components built around a true HTPC.
piesquared - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
There is no better choice for an HTPC motherboard than MSI's Maui board on an AMD platform. And DDR2 is still cheaper than DDR3. That would be my recommendaton anyway.Also agree with the above poster regarding Intel's lack of virtualization support.
arklab - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Wow!This time you guys really blew it on the Intel CPU choices, and could be giving novices who might rely on your advice a nasty surprise.
None of the selected Intel CPUs support XT-x - which of course is REQUIRED to run the new virtual XP mode in Windows 7.
Worst of all, you don't even warn the reader of this situation.
The AMD CPUs are all OK, of course.
Please change your recommendations to select "full use" CPUs.
Wesley Fink - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
That is the way it is on the Intel side. We have to go up to the $169+ range to get VT on Intel and quite frankly, maybe 1% of people might ever run XP mode in Win7.If running the Windows Virtual PC under Windows 7 for XP Mode is important to you, then moving to the E8x00 range or the E6x00 are the best VT options. That would blow the Budget out the door, and make the Intel selections not competitive in the Budget Range.
Do you work for AMD? This is a really minor nag for the vast majority of our readers, and as I'm sure you aware, for a Budget PC if this feature really matters to you then go for an AMD system in the budget price range.
nycromes - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I think their point was/is that there is no mention of it in the article. It is nice to know what you get and what you don't get for these kind of systems. I don't think many will need the VT feature, but it could have still been presented in the article for those that might need it. I wouldn't change the recommendations, but just a small blurb about it would probably suffice.Of course, if they read the comments, there is plenty of mention of it so it doesn't really matter anymore.
Gary Key - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
We had strict budget numbers to meet for this guide. We had to select the entry level Intel processors due to cost and still provide a decent set of components around it. We added a statement about VT support to the processor descriptions.HelToupee - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
This will be a boon to those using non-Microsoft OSes for our HTPC's XBMC, my HTPC OS of choice has supported nVidia's accelerated video playback for quite awhile now. Unfortunately, players have not been able to take advantage of AMD/ATI's Linux drivers due to AMD/ATI being slow to release specs/headers. Acelleration on nVidia is supported in most major Linux video players by default, all you have to do is have the nVidia binary driver installed.kleinwl - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
It's probably worth mentioning that a core i7 makes a great cpu in an HTPC. While it blows the budget, if you are looking to upscale DVDs using ffdshow (or the like) to fit your 52" screen, I would suggest that you do not skimp on the cpu power. While ffdshow is a nightmare to get properly configured (thousands of options, no consistent recommendations), once you do, you can have a viewing experience close to that of an oppo. However, ffdshow can be a resource hog, and thus I recommend pushing the cpu spec as high as you can aford.Spoelie - Friday, May 15, 2009 - link
1. Size of the screen is not directly related to resolution (and thus scaling power needed). There are large plasma screens with the same resolution as a 17" LCD. A modern 52" TV will 'only' have a resolution of 1920x1080, and as such BR will need no scaling, and decoding DVDs is such a light load that there's plenty left for upscaling.There's a reason media tanks do not use super-fast general purpose cpus. They just aren't needed for playing back stuff, even with scaling.
The only valid reason to push cpu power is for transcoding.
2. Ideal = low power, noise, heat, consumption. Not something one would associate with an i7.
Nowadays, even though I have a HTPC, I'm of the opinion you're better of with a media server/transcoder somewhere in a back room and a networked media tank next to the screen instead of a single device to do both tasks.
HOOfan 1 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Just an FYInecrohippy - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
biostar t-series motherboard amd athlon x2 3.0ghz 4gb ram 500watt moduler psu decent case nvidia gtx geforce 260 896mb video card xp pro $600 after rebate $750 in the first place changed cpu from 3ghz to 4.5ghz a great gaming rig for the money....smoken. I had keyboard,mouse,and 19inch viewsonicmrubermonkey - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
With these Intel systems people will not be able to do hardware virtualization of Windows XP from within Windows 7, but people with AMD systems should be alright.JarredWalton - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
I think you're talking about a very small group of people that will even need that feature. Virtual XP is a "fix" from MS that's only for older programs that refuse to work right with Win7, and even then you're running with the equivalent of old unaccelerated GPUs. If you have a program that works with Vista, it should be fine on Win7. If you need virtualization that badly, though, by all means make sure you buy a CPU that supports hardware VT. (Intel will be releasing updated versions of many CPUs with VT enabled in the near future.)jelifah - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Assuming a computer is on an average of 8 hours a day, what cost savings is potentially realized when using a 45nm processor in lieu of a 65nm processor?Heck, I'm still on a 90nm Opteron 170 so anyway I could lie to myself, by 'saving' money upgrading, would be appreciated.
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
From our http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?...">Athlon X2 7850 vs. Core 2 E5300 article, idle power for the Intel system will be around 123W vs. 126W for the Intel system. Load power favors Intel by a larger margin, at 148W vs. 188W. If you're like most users and average 90% idle/10% load (possibly even less than that), it would work out to an average power draw of 125.5W for Intel and 132.2W for AMD.Eight hours per day, 365.25 days per year, and a cost of $0.10 per kWhr thus yields a total of $38.62 for AMD and $36.67 for Intel (based on these systems). The bigger concern would be potentially higher noise levels under load, I think, unless you plan on running something like Folding@Home in the background.
jelifah - Tuesday, May 19, 2009 - link
Thank you for taking the time to run all the info, Jarred.Roland00 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Recently LG has created an e-ips panel (an ips panel that allows more light through thus you don't need a larger backlight.)It has already begun to appear in monitors including the dell 2209wa. Unfortunately prices have gone up on this monitor due to high demand, it is now near 280 in price when it was down to 240 when it first launched.
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
At $280, that's probably one of the best compromises between price and quality you're likely to see. It's ironic that Dell doesn't even mention the IPS panel in their technical specs... aren't they proud of that fact?Spacecomber - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
They probably don't want to be married to that spec; so, when the supply runs low, they can substitute something else.strikeback03 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
They should be. Is it offered in larger sizes?Roland00 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
LG had (has) plans to make larger size versions of the e-ips panels but I haven't heard anything new for the last 3 months on them. To my knowledge only the dell 2209wa uses the lg e-ips panel.Springfield45 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Like your editors, I am excited about the 4770 also. I have one sitting on my desk next to my computer. The reason it is not yet IN the computer? I can't find drivers for it. Sapphire (the flavor I purchased) does not have any on their website, nor does AMD. Do you happen to know of a good source for the drivers?Gary Key - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
The 9.5 release should be out very shortly (within a week is what I was told) and will offer full HD4770 support under Win7. After testing the 9.5 beta for the last week, I found it improves performance and compatibility across the board over the beta Vista CD drivers.Springfield45 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Thank you! I look forward to them with great anticipation!Spivonious - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Didn't it come with a driver CD?Springfield45 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
It did come with a driver cd. The drivers on it are a hacked version of an older driver and has some problems with the games I purchaced it for.just4U - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Don't the 9.4's work with it? odd.. What operating system?Springfield45 - Thursday, May 14, 2009 - link
Currently running the Windows 7 beta, but Vista drivers should work. The 9.4 drivers are not compatable with it. :P