It's hard to decide which camera to go for the coveted Entry Level DSLR position. Plenty of friends consider Canon or Nikon as the major players, and own either one.
Having the opportunity to pick up the A200K for $413 shipped/no tax from SonyRewards last June helped factor in that decision. As a person who had zero experience or knowledge of the SLR domain, this was quite a gamble.
So for the past 4 months, haven taken over 8000 pictures (in RAW), and been to 2 foreign countries, this was definitely worth the investment. The biggest thing Sony has going for them is the backwards compatibility of the Minolta AF lens line.
I picked up a 50mm f/1.7 + 70-210mm f/4 (the "beercan") off CraigsList, since these seem to be "the" lenses to get. Having researched throughout these past few months about aperture, ISO, crop factor, etc... I'll probably pick up a 28mm f/2.8 also.
All in all, the Sony A200K offers a lot: 18-70mm kit lens - bigger than the rest, Minolta AF (Maxxum) Lens backwards compatibility, and plenty of alpha-based accessories. This one seems like a winner.
What am I doing? --> blog.anandtech.com/manthisiswhathappenswhenyoucantsleepandramble
Hmm. I'm more critical of the ISO performance of the Sony A200. It just doesn't seem that good above 800. The Nikon and Olympus are decent and the Canon is affected by some softness and chromatic aberrations at all ISO settings, something that I attribute to it's junk lens. Given a better lens it would probably show it's stuff, but this is a budget comparison and that would be unfair. I wish Canon would spend even $3 more on making their cheapo 18-55.
In general all of these camera packages boarder on being just too much of a compromise. However as I mentioned above the Olympus and the Nikon come close to being acceptable. Frankly I really don't care how many features the camera has if the output is just mediocre. An adequately equipped body with a step up lens is far better advise.
The Canon lens used for testing was their excellent 50mm f1.4, so you can't blame the results on a cheapo lens. All of the tests used 50mm f1.4 primes execpt the Olympus where a 35mm macro was used because of the 2x lens factor. ALL these lenses are in the best part of their resolution curves at f/4, which was a requirement.
Snapshots and regular images published in our reviews do use the kit lens, but not our noise tests.
Oooh, my bad, I missed that. I actually have a 50mm f1.4 that I use occasionally on my 5D. It struggles in low light but otherwise is a fine lens. I was convinced the characteristics were that of poor optic since they seem to exist at low or high gain. Now I'm left scratching my embarrassed head. So much for the XS, it is getting long in the tooth.
I think you are using a few features in the A200 that are not even used by the buyers in this price range.
wireless flash ... I mean come on ... what is the lowest priced Sony external flash that will work with this ? I found the HVL-F42AM as the lowest level model for about 1/2 the price of the A200 kit. No entry level DSRL user will shell out that much money for external flash, they will buy a better body in the first place.
generaly the people getting into this class DSLRs come from the P&S user group. They will still compose mostly with live view, so number of AF points is irelevant. Anyway what's the performance of the 9 focus points ? Only center one is a cross sensor ? Then the other ones will be a source of frustration for the P&S crowd in most conditions :-)
Those coming from P&S who insist on Live View would probably be happiest with the Sony A300 ($599 kit) or A350 ($799). If they want a fast-focusing capable traditional DSLR the A200 has a fast 9-point module that works well with off-center targets, tracks moving subjects well in sports and kid shooting, and is one of the fastest AF and largest brightest viewfinders in its class.
When the new Panasonic G1 micro 4/3 hits the shelves it features a sensor with truly fast contrast-detect AF that many users will find very satisfying in Live View mode. It is the first contrast Live View we have seen that is likely to satisfy DSLR fans. It is likely the first of a new generation of fast Live View sensors that will be used in future competing DSLR cameras.
the wireless flash controller will also work with Sigma, Vivitar etc. flash guns too so you can certainly get down to at least 1/2 the price of a 42AM. I agree that it's probably a function not used y the majority of A200 users but some people who may might use the A200 as a 2nd/backup body to e.g. an A700.
The A200 doesn't have live view & other than the A300/A350 with their particular & unusual implementation autofocus in live view is pretty poor (slow) on DSLRs. At any rate A200 autofocus is as good as (or better than) any other DSLR in it's price bracket.
remember that most p+s use contrast detect AF whereas DSLRs use phase detect (other than in live view except A300/A350).
CMOS sensors are cheaper to manufacture and it is much easier to integrate associated electronics into a CMOS sensor.
It is worth mentioning, however, that the newest highest-res mid-size Kodak sensor, used in the new Leica Medium Format camera, is a CCD sensor, and some still claim the CCD to be superior in image quality.
I took the time to read both the articles. They help in understanding the differences between CMOS/CCD sensors. Yet everything electronic has an expected lifespan. Does anyone have an expected lifespan for these sensors?
Looks to me like the lenses you are using are scratching the limits of the sensors, thus the results are all pretty much the same. Using a prime at f/8 will pretty much take the glass out of the comparison as most any prime is quite sharp at f/8 unless there is something wrong with it.
Also please test using a subject with more colors so we can see how each camera handles demosiacing under increasing ISO.
As stated on the test pages all the test shots used a 50mm f1.4 prime stopped down to f/4.0. We are down 3 stops from the rated speed and in all cases the glass is in its highest resolution range.
The only exception to this is the Olympus tests, where we use a 35mm prime macro lens stopped down to f4, which has been tested to be in the highest resolution area of that lens.
This is because of the 2x factor on Olympus which gives us a 70mm equivalent. That is much closer to the 75- 80mm equivalent of the 50mm on the 1.5X-1.6X sensors. The 50mm macro on the Olympus would be equivalent to 100mm.
Test results are closer because other manufacturers have made dramatic improvements in their sensors in the last couple of years. Canon no longer enjoys the massive lead in sensor resolution and low noise they enjoyed with their CMOS sensors in the early years of DSLR technology. As pointed out in the test comments, many of today's competing cameras in the entry category use the Sony 10.2 megapixel sensor so results would be similar.
The biggest differences are detailed on page 9 in the comparisons of the 3 Sony sensors used in the A200, A350, and A700. The new 24.6 megapixel A900 could have been included as we have one in house, but it seemed a stretch to include a $3000 camera with resolution more than twice the entry-level DSLRs.
As Jarred has pointed out we always use the kit lens for sample images that are normally included in our reviews, so photos will be representative of what a normal buyer might expect. We similarly always use primes stopped down to the same f/4 for our noise and resolution tests to remove glass variations from the equation.
The reasoning to use primes is NOT to test lenses but to try to eliminate lenses as a variable during testing and atually see how the bodies perform. By using less than very good lenses it's hard to tell what is limiting performance, the lens or the body.
Since you are not testing scenes with any depth of field just use the sharpest setting, which is f/8 for just about any lens. f/4 would be applicable to test bokeh for a depth of field shot.
Again I know it's easy to complain. But really I'll I'm saying is use primes and stop down to f/8 so we can isolate the camera body performance.
According to photozone.de, the center resolution of the 50 1.4 is essentially constant from f/2.8-f/5.6, and down a bit at f/8 (corners top out at f/5.6).
Both of these tests are on an 8MP sensor, and the center resolution numbers are pushing the boundary of that sensor, so larger differences might be revealed in tests with a higher resolution sensor. For the 10MP sensors though f/4 would seem to be a very valid choice.
You know that 50 1.4's are not very good, even stopped down a couple of stops.
I would choose the Olympus 35mm macro for quality over the 50's. Try a 50 or 60mm macro instead. It's about as close as you're going to get to the 35mm macro in quality to even out the lens issue.
I think particularly in the entry level DSLR arena, using the included lenses for images is important. The pictures of even a moderate DSLR with kit lens should easily surpass what most P&S cameras can manage, which is one of the big attractions. As soon as you get into lenses, however, you open up a huge can of worms.
As for the subject material... well, I'll leave it to the photography buffs to debate what should be used. I believe Wes is working on some photos showing what the A200 can do out of a static test environment, but in order to provide any semblance of apples-to-apples shooting comparisons I think you need to do something like the shots Wes uses. I know I for one wish the white balance on my XTi did better under Tungsten lighting.
"...it is easy to forget that many buyers are looking for the absolute best "bang-for-the-buck" in a camera."
Really...? Therein lies a divide between AT and readers. Articles for high-end products really aren't appealing to that many people, yet that's almost all we've gotten for cameras.
Even this $500 cam is pretty high-end priced for the vast majority of people that just want something they can take around with them for fun. How about some comparisons of joe schmoe cameras?
On Sunday a friend and I went to a local state park to get some pictures of the leaves. He owns a Canon SD600, a relatively decent couple year old P&S. At one point he was asking me to get some close-ups of a rock face, so instead I tossed my Sigma 18-200 OS on my Rebel XT body (wasn't using either) and let him play with those. I think he is now in the market for an SLR, as some comparison shots he did with his SD600 just blew him away, and that was just in basic JPEG mode.
This is what epinions and CNET is for. I don't think you will find too many serious reviewers who want to spend their time keeping updated on the sub $200 camera market. It is not interesting, there are too many cameras to keep track of and not many people do serious research on that level of purchase.
well i hope u guys do some lens reviews,and for people who are going in for a entry level dslr may not know much about lenses other then the kits lenses.
Is the grip the same as the A100? Between the length and positioning of the shutter release/dial, I found the A100 quite uncomfortable to use. For me either the shorter bodies like the Canon Rebels or the taller ones like Nikon D80/Canon 40D are far more comfortable.
It is a great point and shoot camera. I use mine a LOT and couldn't be happier. I use it as a point and shoot except for ISO and flash control. The ISO control is incredible simple and useful. I would reccomend this to to anyone switching up to a DSLR from a shitty point and shoot.
Ken Rockwell notwithstanding, the D40 is 6 megapixels and the D40x is the previous model to the D60. Both are capable entry DSLRs that have been updated in the D60, which we did test in our comparison.
The D40/D40x are 3-point AF, have no sensor cleaning, and come with non-IS kit lenses. Their features have been upgraded on the D60, which is the entry model we tested.
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deathwalker - Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - link
Broadway Photo has the A200 kit for $321..great deal.strikeback03 - Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - link
http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Broadway_Phot...">http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Broadway_Phot...good luck with that. Here is what they look like:
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0006.h...">http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0006.h...
and
http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0049.h...">http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0049.h...
AkumaX - Friday, October 24, 2008 - link
It's hard to decide which camera to go for the coveted Entry Level DSLR position. Plenty of friends consider Canon or Nikon as the major players, and own either one.Having the opportunity to pick up the A200K for $413 shipped/no tax from SonyRewards last June helped factor in that decision. As a person who had zero experience or knowledge of the SLR domain, this was quite a gamble.
So for the past 4 months, haven taken over 8000 pictures (in RAW), and been to 2 foreign countries, this was definitely worth the investment. The biggest thing Sony has going for them is the backwards compatibility of the Minolta AF lens line.
I picked up a 50mm f/1.7 + 70-210mm f/4 (the "beercan") off CraigsList, since these seem to be "the" lenses to get. Having researched throughout these past few months about aperture, ISO, crop factor, etc... I'll probably pick up a 28mm f/2.8 also.
All in all, the Sony A200K offers a lot: 18-70mm kit lens - bigger than the rest, Minolta AF (Maxxum) Lens backwards compatibility, and plenty of alpha-based accessories. This one seems like a winner.
What am I doing? --> blog.anandtech.com/manthisiswhathappenswhenyoucantsleepandramble
cafmike1 - Monday, April 19, 2010 - link
I am waiting on the replacement SLR for the Nikon D90 herehttp://www.cameta.com/Nikon-D90-Digital-SLR-Camera...
Does anyone know when this thing is going to be announced?
Wineohe - Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - link
Hmm. I'm more critical of the ISO performance of the Sony A200. It just doesn't seem that good above 800. The Nikon and Olympus are decent and the Canon is affected by some softness and chromatic aberrations at all ISO settings, something that I attribute to it's junk lens. Given a better lens it would probably show it's stuff, but this is a budget comparison and that would be unfair. I wish Canon would spend even $3 more on making their cheapo 18-55.In general all of these camera packages boarder on being just too much of a compromise. However as I mentioned above the Olympus and the Nikon come close to being acceptable. Frankly I really don't care how many features the camera has if the output is just mediocre. An adequately equipped body with a step up lens is far better advise.
Heidfirst - Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - link
shoot RAW & pp. Sony's jpeg engine isn't the greatest.strikeback03 - Thursday, October 23, 2008 - link
I'd agree for higher level bodies, but the distinction probably isn't relevant for most consumers at the $500 price point.Wesley Fink - Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - link
The Canon lens used for testing was their excellent 50mm f1.4, so you can't blame the results on a cheapo lens. All of the tests used 50mm f1.4 primes execpt the Olympus where a 35mm macro was used because of the 2x lens factor. ALL these lenses are in the best part of their resolution curves at f/4, which was a requirement.Snapshots and regular images published in our reviews do use the kit lens, but not our noise tests.
Wineohe - Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - link
Oooh, my bad, I missed that. I actually have a 50mm f1.4 that I use occasionally on my 5D. It struggles in low light but otherwise is a fine lens. I was convinced the characteristics were that of poor optic since they seem to exist at low or high gain. Now I'm left scratching my embarrassed head. So much for the XS, it is getting long in the tooth.haplo602 - Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - link
I think you are using a few features in the A200 that are not even used by the buyers in this price range.wireless flash ... I mean come on ... what is the lowest priced Sony external flash that will work with this ? I found the HVL-F42AM as the lowest level model for about 1/2 the price of the A200 kit. No entry level DSRL user will shell out that much money for external flash, they will buy a better body in the first place.
generaly the people getting into this class DSLRs come from the P&S user group. They will still compose mostly with live view, so number of AF points is irelevant. Anyway what's the performance of the 9 focus points ? Only center one is a cross sensor ? Then the other ones will be a source of frustration for the P&S crowd in most conditions :-)
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - link
Those coming from P&S who insist on Live View would probably be happiest with the Sony A300 ($599 kit) or A350 ($799). If they want a fast-focusing capable traditional DSLR the A200 has a fast 9-point module that works well with off-center targets, tracks moving subjects well in sports and kid shooting, and is one of the fastest AF and largest brightest viewfinders in its class.When the new Panasonic G1 micro 4/3 hits the shelves it features a sensor with truly fast contrast-detect AF that many users will find very satisfying in Live View mode. It is the first contrast Live View we have seen that is likely to satisfy DSLR fans. It is likely the first of a new generation of fast Live View sensors that will be used in future competing DSLR cameras.
Heidfirst - Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - link
the wireless flash controller will also work with Sigma, Vivitar etc. flash guns too so you can certainly get down to at least 1/2 the price of a 42AM. I agree that it's probably a function not used y the majority of A200 users but some people who may might use the A200 as a 2nd/backup body to e.g. an A700.The A200 doesn't have live view & other than the A300/A350 with their particular & unusual implementation autofocus in live view is pretty poor (slow) on DSLRs. At any rate A200 autofocus is as good as (or better than) any other DSLR in it's price bracket.
remember that most p+s use contrast detect AF whereas DSLRs use phase detect (other than in live view except A300/A350).
computerfarmer - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
I have noticed the Sony a200 review on dpreview dated July 2008 with an announcement date of January 2008. you can view it here.http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Sony/">http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Sony/
Perhaps there are changes I am unaware of.
This does appear to be a nice camera for the money. It has a good size sensor along with a decent kit lens.
Is it true the future is in cmos sensors?
What is the expected life span of CCD/CMOS sensors?
Wesley Fink - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
CMOS sensors are cheaper to manufacture and it is much easier to integrate associated electronics into a CMOS sensor.It is worth mentioning, however, that the newest highest-res mid-size Kodak sensor, used in the new Leica Medium Format camera, is a CCD sensor, and some still claim the CCD to be superior in image quality.
For a more in-depth discussion of CCD vs. CMOS you may want to look back at our Digital Sensor Articles with Part 1 at http://www.anandtech.com/digitalcameras/showdoc.as...">http://www.anandtech.com/digitalcameras/showdoc.as... and part 2 at http://www.anandtech.com/digitalcameras/showdoc.as...">http://www.anandtech.com/digitalcameras/showdoc.as....
computerfarmer - Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - link
Thank you for your prompt reply.I took the time to read both the articles. They help in understanding the differences between CMOS/CCD sensors. Yet everything electronic has an expected lifespan. Does anyone have an expected lifespan for these sensors?
Hulk - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
Looks to me like the lenses you are using are scratching the limits of the sensors, thus the results are all pretty much the same. Using a prime at f/8 will pretty much take the glass out of the comparison as most any prime is quite sharp at f/8 unless there is something wrong with it.Also please test using a subject with more colors so we can see how each camera handles demosiacing under increasing ISO.
Thanks for you hard work.
- Mark
Wesley Fink - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
As stated on the test pages all the test shots used a 50mm f1.4 prime stopped down to f/4.0. We are down 3 stops from the rated speed and in all cases the glass is in its highest resolution range.The only exception to this is the Olympus tests, where we use a 35mm prime macro lens stopped down to f4, which has been tested to be in the highest resolution area of that lens.
This is because of the 2x factor on Olympus which gives us a 70mm equivalent. That is much closer to the 75- 80mm equivalent of the 50mm on the 1.5X-1.6X sensors. The 50mm macro on the Olympus would be equivalent to 100mm.
Test results are closer because other manufacturers have made dramatic improvements in their sensors in the last couple of years. Canon no longer enjoys the massive lead in sensor resolution and low noise they enjoyed with their CMOS sensors in the early years of DSLR technology. As pointed out in the test comments, many of today's competing cameras in the entry category use the Sony 10.2 megapixel sensor so results would be similar.
The biggest differences are detailed on page 9 in the comparisons of the 3 Sony sensors used in the A200, A350, and A700. The new 24.6 megapixel A900 could have been included as we have one in house, but it seemed a stretch to include a $3000 camera with resolution more than twice the entry-level DSLRs.
As Jarred has pointed out we always use the kit lens for sample images that are normally included in our reviews, so photos will be representative of what a normal buyer might expect. We similarly always use primes stopped down to the same f/4 for our noise and resolution tests to remove glass variations from the equation.
Hulk - Thursday, October 23, 2008 - link
The reasoning to use primes is NOT to test lenses but to try to eliminate lenses as a variable during testing and atually see how the bodies perform. By using less than very good lenses it's hard to tell what is limiting performance, the lens or the body.Since you are not testing scenes with any depth of field just use the sharpest setting, which is f/8 for just about any lens. f/4 would be applicable to test bokeh for a depth of field shot.
Again I know it's easy to complain. But really I'll I'm saying is use primes and stop down to f/8 so we can isolate the camera body performance.
Thanks,
- Mark
strikeback03 - Thursday, October 23, 2008 - link
According to photozone.de, the center resolution of the 50 1.4 is essentially constant from f/2.8-f/5.6, and down a bit at f/8 (corners top out at f/5.6).http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/159-canon-ef-50m...">http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/159-c...mm-f14-u...
slrgear calls f/4 and f/5.6 essentially tied, with f/8 a little worse.
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/pro...">http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/pro...
Both of these tests are on an 8MP sensor, and the center resolution numbers are pushing the boundary of that sensor, so larger differences might be revealed in tests with a higher resolution sensor. For the 10MP sensors though f/4 would seem to be a very valid choice.
melgross - Thursday, October 23, 2008 - link
You know that 50 1.4's are not very good, even stopped down a couple of stops.I would choose the Olympus 35mm macro for quality over the 50's. Try a 50 or 60mm macro instead. It's about as close as you're going to get to the 35mm macro in quality to even out the lens issue.
JarredWalton - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
I think particularly in the entry level DSLR arena, using the included lenses for images is important. The pictures of even a moderate DSLR with kit lens should easily surpass what most P&S cameras can manage, which is one of the big attractions. As soon as you get into lenses, however, you open up a huge can of worms.As for the subject material... well, I'll leave it to the photography buffs to debate what should be used. I believe Wes is working on some photos showing what the A200 can do out of a static test environment, but in order to provide any semblance of apples-to-apples shooting comparisons I think you need to do something like the shots Wes uses. I know I for one wish the white balance on my XTi did better under Tungsten lighting.
nowayout99 - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
"...it is easy to forget that many buyers are looking for the absolute best "bang-for-the-buck" in a camera."Really...? Therein lies a divide between AT and readers. Articles for high-end products really aren't appealing to that many people, yet that's almost all we've gotten for cameras.
Even this $500 cam is pretty high-end priced for the vast majority of people that just want something they can take around with them for fun. How about some comparisons of joe schmoe cameras?
strikeback03 - Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - link
On Sunday a friend and I went to a local state park to get some pictures of the leaves. He owns a Canon SD600, a relatively decent couple year old P&S. At one point he was asking me to get some close-ups of a rock face, so instead I tossed my Sigma 18-200 OS on my Rebel XT body (wasn't using either) and let him play with those. I think he is now in the market for an SLR, as some comparison shots he did with his SD600 just blew him away, and that was just in basic JPEG mode.GTVic - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
This is what epinions and CNET is for. I don't think you will find too many serious reviewers who want to spend their time keeping updated on the sub $200 camera market. It is not interesting, there are too many cameras to keep track of and not many people do serious research on that level of purchase.adder - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
well i hope u guys do some lens reviews,and for people who are going in for a entry level dslr may not know much about lenses other then the kits lenses.strikeback03 - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
Is the grip the same as the A100? Between the length and positioning of the shutter release/dial, I found the A100 quite uncomfortable to use. For me either the shorter bodies like the Canon Rebels or the taller ones like Nikon D80/Canon 40D are far more comfortable.FATCamaro - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
It is a great point and shoot camera. I use mine a LOT and couldn't be happier. I use it as a point and shoot except for ISO and flash control. The ISO control is incredible simple and useful. I would reccomend this to to anyone switching up to a DSLR from a shitty point and shoot.DanD85 - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
It seems you forget the still available D40/D40x and I think they perfectly fit in the budget DSLRs you have here.Wesley Fink - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
Ken Rockwell notwithstanding, the D40 is 6 megapixels and the D40x is the previous model to the D60. Both are capable entry DSLRs that have been updated in the D60, which we did test in our comparison.The D40/D40x are 3-point AF, have no sensor cleaning, and come with non-IS kit lenses. Their features have been upgraded on the D60, which is the entry model we tested.
xsilver - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
also forgotten is the pentax line. The k200d doesnt have live view either but using old lenses on them is a joy.feraltoad - Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - link
I love my K200D! It is fun using old lenses.Wesley Fink - Monday, October 20, 2008 - link
The Pentax K200D is included in our competitive analysis and you will find it in the specifications comparison on page 5.