no it doesnt; and its a lot faster for me to boot too (using same 2.5GHz one). Please check your benchmark Anand! I think this benchmark is a good comparison with HD-SSD but the figures should not be taken separately.
I'm hoping that there will still be moving parts in my next laptop (and I don't just mean the screen hinges!) - I have tried, and detest, keyboards without moving parts.
The Civic comment was NOT about buying a $15,000 Honda Civic and enjoying the reliability and high resale value.
The Civic comment was about tricking it out for another $25,000.00 and then in the end having nothing more than a tricked out Civic that "sane people laugh at".
It's a very good example. Very good. Really good. :)
It's entirely true though fellas... MacBook Pro for $2k... OK, maybe, I mean it's a really nice computer and people will buy it off of you for years to come. But a $4,000 HDD for a $2k MB pro... never, not ever, not even a little bit.
These drives will be a dime a dozen. Why? Because masses will not pay extra and yet they will become cheaper to make than the mechanical based drives. I think it could be a $100- $250 option for a while for the nerds. It's similar to LCD vs CRTs... CRTs are less desirable AND cost more to make... so now we have LCDs that are not only bigger than CRTs they are also less expensive. 24" Sony CRT was like $1,600.00 originally.
I have a MacBook that cost less than 3000$ (2.5GHz) and the load times are 15-25% faster than yours. Yes, I make sure the app is not running already. Example; CS3 loads in less than 10 seconds and the boot time is faster too. Any explanation?
i believe the reason the battery is the same is that the LCD is the main draw on power NOT the HDD. wouldn't this be obvious?
I've read about replacing an IPOD hdd of a 3g, 4g, 5g or 6g video with a 32gb or 64gb CF flash card by using a simple adapter and it can increase the battery life by 40%+ when playing mp3/lossless this is because the ipod doesn't have the screen on 24/7. BUT if you try comparing battery life when playing video it will be almost exactly the same...obviously because the LCD is drawing far more than any moving hdd replaced with SS can improve.
Yes a drive is a lesser consumer of power in a laptop, but the generic controller, bridge, and cache also use some power. In other flash devices we discount the use of power by supportive silicon on the mainboard and only count flash chips themselves and a minimal controller bridge.
On the other hand I think some people overestimate the amount of power a mechanical laptop drive uses, they too have been optimized for low power as much as reasonably possible. It doesn't take a lot of power to keep a tiny low mass precision bearing and platter spinning once it is. Think about a toy, top. You put a lot of energy into starting it but frictional forces that slow it down could be overcome with minimal addt'l energy investment. Seeking is still a factor but a low mass arm is used. In the end we have the same choices as always, keep optmizing hardware towards increased performance or lower power usage and most people pick the former not the latter so that's the design target for most equipment unless there is another pressing need. High density blade like server needs come to mind, but $4000 a pop is a lot of money even for that.
hm, i could either upgrade every other component in the computer and get AMAZING application performance, or i could pay MORE to have the aplication load 10-20s (MAX) faster...
I would have liked to see the desktop PC statistics with the newer SSD side by side with the Hitachi, Mainly to see if the Macbook is the limiting factor in some way to both the drives.
Reason being Ive seen alot better performance from other SSD's at a third of the cost.
When will these become available/affordable for desktop use? HTPC comes immediately to mind, but I would like one for my gaming rig if it yields a "snappier" system for a moderate cost.
You must be kidding. Minimal to no gain in sequential access, improvement primarily in random access, limited capacity, and extreme price per GB make this about the worst choice possible for a HTPC.
Regardless, if that's what you want go ahead and do it, drive rail adapters to use 2.5" in 3.5" bays are not expensive or hard to find. You could even squeeze two or three drives into one 3.5" bay so you have a HTPC with $12,000 spent on storage instead of a $80 mechanical drive.
1) Buy CF3 or CF4 spec'd CF card and CF-IDE adapter. CF card performance is lower than on a good SSD so staying with PATA/IDE interface is not a bottleneck.
2) Plug card into adapter, plug adapter into system.
3) You're done, there is now no difference beyond having mechanical drive instead, although if SSD is not using SLC flash chips you might want to decide how to limit # of writes to it from pagefile, temporary browser files, etc.
That needs to be fixed, no reason for flash to take more power than a hard drive, maybe they can power off some of the flash that is unused until it's needed? If it doesn't even increase battery life then what's the point? Resilience and random seek times are nice but battery life is the main concern on a mobile platform.
It's the controller, bridge and cache that use the power, these flash chips don't have to be recharged.
Keep in mind that while battery life is important, and power consumption of an SSD will go down over time, they still aren't one of the larger consumers of power. Ultimiately if runtime is most important the area to focus on is designers who mistakenly assume a smaller device footprint is more important than runtime, thus squeezing in a smaller battery (capacity).
"two areas of inefficiency: the drive isn't a native SATA device and it uses a FPGA instead of a custom IC for some functions."
this is incorrect. using an FPGA instead of a custom IC makes no difference in performance whatsoever. the difference is in cost. there is a lot of research into cost/benefit of using an FPGA instead of a custom ic and it all boils down to volume. obviously, they dont have high enough volume to necessitate a custom IC.
but, an fpga configured to behave exactly like what your custom IC would behave like ... are the same thing. only difference again, is price.
some point might astutely point out that a custom IC can be clocked higher, but i very much doubt that advantage is applicable here.
Yeah. Using a custom IC means you don't have any extra transistors wasting space and power. An FPGA can do the same thing as a custom IC, but you usually have more gates available than you actually need.
I was under the impression that SATA used more electricity than PATA, no mention of that?
We are going to need a dedicated low power mode for the chipsets and the SSD's
I wouldn't be surprised if these are all switched to a Mini PCIe card when this is mainstream. The added bulk, price and inefficiency of these in a 2.5" form factor is just plain dumb, besides, let it communicate over PCIe, then you wouldn't need to have a PATA-SATA etc interface.
1) It would be very risky to design a laptop that didn't support 2.5" drives, a lot of the market isn't going to pay $4000 for their hard drive.
2) You are obviously wrong about (significant) added bulk, that size is what allows the number of flash chips to reach capacity, the controller to improve performance, and the supporting electronics onboard. Of course there is a bit of space non-electronically *wasted* but so it goes with modular parts. When flash density increases again you could have smaller form factor with same capacity or you could have higher capacity. Also, a well optimized controller should parallelize access to the chips so more chips = better performance.
3) SATA vs PATA power consumption is not necessarily a difference enough to be significant in total device power consumption, although in this case with a PATA SATA bridge chip there is a small (probably under 50mA) consumption by that bridge.
4) You suggest comm over PCIe would be significant, that you wouldn't need PATA to SATA, but you would still need intermediary controller. Remember that SSDs are not developed for only one notebook, the market for a $4000 device is limited enough already so supporting the largest # of systems reasonably possible will help drive down prices.
5) What happens when you keep packing more and more active parts into a smaller space? Power density goes up and you then either need a fan or elaborate heatsinks scattered around and a lifespan degradation of other parts from running at higher temp. Not what people want when paying $5000 plus for a laptop.
In the end, SSD is still in it's infancy, think back to the improvements in mechanical drives made from the beginning until now. Ultimately if space savings becomes priority #1 they will just integrate the controller and flash chips onto the mainboard, forgoing the PCIe mechanical interface and parallel PCBs, that space consumption altogether.
Personally I think we need a new memory format similar to Compact Flash, with robust pin connectors, easily slotted and removable, and native SATA300 support. Next we need a portable Windows, so switching from your laptop environment and files to your desktop is just a matter of pulling card out of slot and plugging into the other system - or any other PC in the world for that matter. The crude precursors of this are already seen in mobile apps on USB thumbdrives but to be truely portable the whole OS environment needs be fully plug-n-play not what MS calls PNP.
Last time I checked, even 8 sticks of Corsair Flash Voyager GT (16GB) flash drive cost less than $1000 total. Even with FPGAs and other extra electronics, the $3,819 price tag is a poor price excuse for extra performance. Considering that the drive doesn't even read and write at 8x the speed of Flash Voyager GT, you are better off using the extra cash to get better laptop options for other components.
It's interesting that although your article mentions at the bottom of page 2 that and SSD would appear as just another hard drive, the DV Nation website lists the system requirements as OS X 10.5 being required. I guess they are just being conservative.
I would like the response time of an SSD, but beyond the price, the storage capacity is still a bit constraining, even at 128GB. Personally, now that Fujitsu has announced 320GB 7200rpm 2.5" drives, I'm waiting on Hitachi to release an equivalent to replace my 160GB 5400 rpm Hitachi in my MacBook Pro. If I'm not mistaken Hitachi drives tend to be faster than Fujitsu.
Honda Civics do not depreciate that much, pretty bad example actually. Honda is known for it's high resale value and continued quality through high mileage and the test of time.
You should have picked an American car to use in that metaphor, for instance, any car made by Ford or GM would have been a good choice.
A Ford Focus for instance, loses a lot more of it's value than a Honda Civic, hell for that matter, any American car loses it's value quicker than a Honda Civic.
lol. well... that kind of makes the statement true nonetheless. if the sdd depreciates in value 40% that means it depreciates a lot faster than a honda civic. if they'd chosen say... a dodge intrepid (my neighbor's '03 sold for $3000) or something like that, the depreciation value would be similar or over 40% defeating the purpose of the comment.
I had the same thought about the lack of depreciation on Civics when I read that line. And the fact that half the comments relate to that one sentence is humorous as well.
It being one of the cars that depreciates the least.
Look at the list, you will only find TWO American cars on it, a Viper, which is really an odd inclusion, and a Jeep Wrangler.
Really really really bad example in using the Honda Civic.
Really really bad to be honest with you. This lack of judgment and knowledge makes me question the entire worth of the article.
We at Honda Civic Owners Anonymous are here to help you. We know the pain you feel at having purchased and tricked out a piece of shit $15,000 car so that you can play gangsta pimp around the neighborhood, only to realize that what you now own is a $40,000 piece of crap that sane people laugh at. We can help you with your problems! Please call us:
I also wanted to lend my support for your insightful comments Tim. There's nothing I appreciate more than someone that jumps to the conclusion, takes one sentence, and then posts a bitchfest in the comments. But then what should we expect from a Honda owner? "Anand made fun of my car. Waaaaaah! Moooooom!"
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ZeglaTech - Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - link
Did you get to keep the SSD and the Macbook Pro?Lucky you!
Slaanesh - Friday, April 25, 2008 - link
It takes 19 secs on a default McBook pro to launch MS Word???????Loknar - Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - link
no it doesnt; and its a lot faster for me to boot too (using same 2.5GHz one). Please check your benchmark Anand! I think this benchmark is a good comparison with HD-SSD but the figures should not be taken separately.CyniCat - Friday, April 25, 2008 - link
I'm hoping that there will still be moving parts in my next laptop (and I don't just mean the screen hinges!) - I have tried, and detest, keyboards without moving parts.gochichi - Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - link
The Civic comment was NOT about buying a $15,000 Honda Civic and enjoying the reliability and high resale value.The Civic comment was about tricking it out for another $25,000.00 and then in the end having nothing more than a tricked out Civic that "sane people laugh at".
It's a very good example. Very good. Really good. :)
It's entirely true though fellas... MacBook Pro for $2k... OK, maybe, I mean it's a really nice computer and people will buy it off of you for years to come. But a $4,000 HDD for a $2k MB pro... never, not ever, not even a little bit.
These drives will be a dime a dozen. Why? Because masses will not pay extra and yet they will become cheaper to make than the mechanical based drives. I think it could be a $100- $250 option for a while for the nerds. It's similar to LCD vs CRTs... CRTs are less desirable AND cost more to make... so now we have LCDs that are not only bigger than CRTs they are also less expensive. 24" Sony CRT was like $1,600.00 originally.
Loknar - Monday, April 21, 2008 - link
I have a MacBook that cost less than 3000$ (2.5GHz) and the load times are 15-25% faster than yours. Yes, I make sure the app is not running already. Example; CS3 loads in less than 10 seconds and the boot time is faster too. Any explanation?wired00 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - link
i believe the reason the battery is the same is that the LCD is the main draw on power NOT the HDD. wouldn't this be obvious?I've read about replacing an IPOD hdd of a 3g, 4g, 5g or 6g video with a 32gb or 64gb CF flash card by using a simple adapter and it can increase the battery life by 40%+ when playing mp3/lossless this is because the ipod doesn't have the screen on 24/7. BUT if you try comparing battery life when playing video it will be almost exactly the same...obviously because the LCD is drawing far more than any moving hdd replaced with SS can improve.
here's info on the ipod mod if your interested...
http://www.tarkan.info/20080115/tutorials/iflash-i...">http://www.tarkan.info/20080115/tutorials/iflash-i...
mindless1 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - link
Yes a drive is a lesser consumer of power in a laptop, but the generic controller, bridge, and cache also use some power. In other flash devices we discount the use of power by supportive silicon on the mainboard and only count flash chips themselves and a minimal controller bridge.On the other hand I think some people overestimate the amount of power a mechanical laptop drive uses, they too have been optimized for low power as much as reasonably possible. It doesn't take a lot of power to keep a tiny low mass precision bearing and platter spinning once it is. Think about a toy, top. You put a lot of energy into starting it but frictional forces that slow it down could be overcome with minimal addt'l energy investment. Seeking is still a factor but a low mass arm is used. In the end we have the same choices as always, keep optmizing hardware towards increased performance or lower power usage and most people pick the former not the latter so that's the design target for most equipment unless there is another pressing need. High density blade like server needs come to mind, but $4000 a pop is a lot of money even for that.
zshift - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
hm, i could either upgrade every other component in the computer and get AMAZING application performance, or i could pay MORE to have the aplication load 10-20s (MAX) faster...Lorne - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
I would have liked to see the desktop PC statistics with the newer SSD side by side with the Hitachi, Mainly to see if the Macbook is the limiting factor in some way to both the drives.Reason being Ive seen alot better performance from other SSD's at a third of the cost.
Denithor - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
When will these become available/affordable for desktop use? HTPC comes immediately to mind, but I would like one for my gaming rig if it yields a "snappier" system for a moderate cost.mindless1 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - link
You must be kidding. Minimal to no gain in sequential access, improvement primarily in random access, limited capacity, and extreme price per GB make this about the worst choice possible for a HTPC.Regardless, if that's what you want go ahead and do it, drive rail adapters to use 2.5" in 3.5" bays are not expensive or hard to find. You could even squeeze two or three drives into one 3.5" bay so you have a HTPC with $12,000 spent on storage instead of a $80 mechanical drive.
just4U - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
Is it possible to instal Windowso n a flash drive. You know, one of those 16/32 meg jobs. This article has got me curious.. :)strikeback03 - Thursday, April 17, 2008 - link
I assume you mean 16/32GB, and yes, I believe I saw instructions for that over at mp3car.com.mindless1 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - link
Instructions? Not a complex process.1) Buy CF3 or CF4 spec'd CF card and CF-IDE adapter. CF card performance is lower than on a good SSD so staying with PATA/IDE interface is not a bottleneck.
2) Plug card into adapter, plug adapter into system.
3) You're done, there is now no difference beyond having mechanical drive instead, although if SSD is not using SLC flash chips you might want to decide how to limit # of writes to it from pagefile, temporary browser files, etc.
strikeback03 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - link
I just glanced at the instructions as I am not building a carputer yet, but IIRC a lot of it was optimizing the pagefile and other little writes.Nihility - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
That needs to be fixed, no reason for flash to take more power than a hard drive, maybe they can power off some of the flash that is unused until it's needed? If it doesn't even increase battery life then what's the point? Resilience and random seek times are nice but battery life is the main concern on a mobile platform.mindless1 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - link
It's the controller, bridge and cache that use the power, these flash chips don't have to be recharged.Keep in mind that while battery life is important, and power consumption of an SSD will go down over time, they still aren't one of the larger consumers of power. Ultimiately if runtime is most important the area to focus on is designers who mistakenly assume a smaller device footprint is more important than runtime, thus squeezing in a smaller battery (capacity).
iwodo - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
Intel 's SSD promise doubling the performance of current SSD Drive. I cant wait to see it.I wonder would the ARM7 chip be the limiting factor here?
skiboysteve - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
"two areas of inefficiency: the drive isn't a native SATA device and it uses a FPGA instead of a custom IC for some functions."this is incorrect. using an FPGA instead of a custom IC makes no difference in performance whatsoever. the difference is in cost. there is a lot of research into cost/benefit of using an FPGA instead of a custom ic and it all boils down to volume. obviously, they dont have high enough volume to necessitate a custom IC.
but, an fpga configured to behave exactly like what your custom IC would behave like ... are the same thing. only difference again, is price.
some point might astutely point out that a custom IC can be clocked higher, but i very much doubt that advantage is applicable here.
Alexstarfire - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
Efficiency != performance. You know that, right?JarredWalton - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
Yeah. Using a custom IC means you don't have any extra transistors wasting space and power. An FPGA can do the same thing as a custom IC, but you usually have more gates available than you actually need.nubie - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
I was under the impression that SATA used more electricity than PATA, no mention of that?We are going to need a dedicated low power mode for the chipsets and the SSD's
I wouldn't be surprised if these are all switched to a Mini PCIe card when this is mainstream. The added bulk, price and inefficiency of these in a 2.5" form factor is just plain dumb, besides, let it communicate over PCIe, then you wouldn't need to have a PATA-SATA etc interface.
mindless1 - Friday, April 18, 2008 - link
1) It would be very risky to design a laptop that didn't support 2.5" drives, a lot of the market isn't going to pay $4000 for their hard drive.2) You are obviously wrong about (significant) added bulk, that size is what allows the number of flash chips to reach capacity, the controller to improve performance, and the supporting electronics onboard. Of course there is a bit of space non-electronically *wasted* but so it goes with modular parts. When flash density increases again you could have smaller form factor with same capacity or you could have higher capacity. Also, a well optimized controller should parallelize access to the chips so more chips = better performance.
3) SATA vs PATA power consumption is not necessarily a difference enough to be significant in total device power consumption, although in this case with a PATA SATA bridge chip there is a small (probably under 50mA) consumption by that bridge.
4) You suggest comm over PCIe would be significant, that you wouldn't need PATA to SATA, but you would still need intermediary controller. Remember that SSDs are not developed for only one notebook, the market for a $4000 device is limited enough already so supporting the largest # of systems reasonably possible will help drive down prices.
5) What happens when you keep packing more and more active parts into a smaller space? Power density goes up and you then either need a fan or elaborate heatsinks scattered around and a lifespan degradation of other parts from running at higher temp. Not what people want when paying $5000 plus for a laptop.
In the end, SSD is still in it's infancy, think back to the improvements in mechanical drives made from the beginning until now. Ultimately if space savings becomes priority #1 they will just integrate the controller and flash chips onto the mainboard, forgoing the PCIe mechanical interface and parallel PCBs, that space consumption altogether.
Personally I think we need a new memory format similar to Compact Flash, with robust pin connectors, easily slotted and removable, and native SATA300 support. Next we need a portable Windows, so switching from your laptop environment and files to your desktop is just a matter of pulling card out of slot and plugging into the other system - or any other PC in the world for that matter. The crude precursors of this are already seen in mobile apps on USB thumbdrives but to be truely portable the whole OS environment needs be fully plug-n-play not what MS calls PNP.
quanta - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
Last time I checked, even 8 sticks of Corsair Flash Voyager GT (16GB) flash drive cost less than $1000 total. Even with FPGAs and other extra electronics, the $3,819 price tag is a poor price excuse for extra performance. Considering that the drive doesn't even read and write at 8x the speed of Flash Voyager GT, you are better off using the extra cash to get better laptop options for other components.ltcommanderdata - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
It's interesting that although your article mentions at the bottom of page 2 that and SSD would appear as just another hard drive, the DV Nation website lists the system requirements as OS X 10.5 being required. I guess they are just being conservative.I would like the response time of an SSD, but beyond the price, the storage capacity is still a bit constraining, even at 128GB. Personally, now that Fujitsu has announced 320GB 7200rpm 2.5" drives, I'm waiting on Hitachi to release an equivalent to replace my 160GB 5400 rpm Hitachi in my MacBook Pro. If I'm not mistaken Hitachi drives tend to be faster than Fujitsu.
Timothy123 - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
Honda Civics do not depreciate that much, pretty bad example actually. Honda is known for it's high resale value and continued quality through high mileage and the test of time.You should have picked an American car to use in that metaphor, for instance, any car made by Ford or GM would have been a good choice.
A Ford Focus for instance, loses a lot more of it's value than a Honda Civic, hell for that matter, any American car loses it's value quicker than a Honda Civic.
Really really really bad example. Really bad.
xkon - Saturday, April 19, 2008 - link
lol. well... that kind of makes the statement true nonetheless. if the sdd depreciates in value 40% that means it depreciates a lot faster than a honda civic. if they'd chosen say... a dodge intrepid (my neighbor's '03 sold for $3000) or something like that, the depreciation value would be similar or over 40% defeating the purpose of the comment.Googer - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
Tim,What the hell has that got to do with any thing in the article?
strikeback03 - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
I had the same thought about the lack of depreciation on Civics when I read that line. And the fact that half the comments relate to that one sentence is humorous as well.Timothy123 - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
The Honda Civic actually gets a 5 star depreciation rating.http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/alg/index.html#seda...">http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/alg/index.html#seda...
It being one of the cars that depreciates the least.
Look at the list, you will only find TWO American cars on it, a Viper, which is really an odd inclusion, and a Jeep Wrangler.
Really really really bad example in using the Honda Civic.
Really really bad to be honest with you. This lack of judgment and knowledge makes me question the entire worth of the article.
Really really bad.
hansmuff - Monday, April 21, 2008 - link
OMFG Hondagate!You're correct about the depreciation, but the JUST LEAVE HONDA ALONE response is quite silly.
niva - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
A Honda owner scorned is apparently worse than a Mac Fanboy being told he owns an overpriced pos. GG!Duwelon - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
o rly?DigitalFreak - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
We really really don't care. Really really not.whatthehey - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
Dear Timothy123,We at Honda Civic Owners Anonymous are here to help you. We know the pain you feel at having purchased and tricked out a piece of shit $15,000 car so that you can play gangsta pimp around the neighborhood, only to realize that what you now own is a $40,000 piece of crap that sane people laugh at. We can help you with your problems! Please call us:
1-800-CVCSHIT
Denithor - Wednesday, April 16, 2008 - link
That really is the funniest thing I've read all day.WTG!
Frumious1 - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
I also wanted to lend my support for your insightful comments Tim. There's nothing I appreciate more than someone that jumps to the conclusion, takes one sentence, and then posts a bitchfest in the comments. But then what should we expect from a Honda owner? "Anand made fun of my car. Waaaaaah! Moooooom!"Avalon - Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - link
That was really really really the silliest thing I've read all day. LOL.