I spent some time with the Blackbird at the E4All Expo in Los Angeles. Here are some pictures I took to round out the article. I was inpmressed by the design and the eSATA ports that are standard with the Machine.
I've already got a Blackbird. Where does the Exhaust go on this one. Twin Akropovich straight thru pipes should realease a few extra BHP. This ones not good for pillions though.
I just re-read your article and you considered the case IN the overcharge. I understand your point now. Still, if you assume a $300 case the overcharge for the COMPLETED machine is indeed $1,100
$300 might also be a bit low for this case - I'd consider it "better" than something like a Silverstone in a lot of ways, so we could probably even go so far as to say it's a $400 or even $500 case. That's the price you pay for getting something "exotic", right?
As for the 8800 Ultra, you're right that HP uses EVGA on their 8800 Ultra GPUs. Unless they're getting factory OC'ed models, though, there's no real difference between EVGA stock 8800 Ultra and "Brand-X" 8800 Ultra. They all use reference designs for cooling, RAM, PCB, etc., and since HP puts on water cooling (at least at the LCi/Dedication) the stock board seems to have even less meaning.
That said, I know I saw a $590 Ultra when I put together the original price list, but the cheapest I'm seeing now is $610 (XFX). Since prices will fluctuate over time, I'll bump the price up a bit but over time the tables will undoubtedly be outdated.
Definitely. As I tried to make clear, *IF* you're in the market for an "exotic" high-end PC, the Blackbird is a real bargain compared to most other offerings. Alienware is about $500 more at least - and personally I'm not a huge fan of the "Alien Head Case" design. Falcon is about $2500 more and VoodooPC is about $3000 more. But you do get additional attention to detail with the latter two companies (and I'm sure some others that I failed to mention).
I have no idea which EVGA GPUs are used, as I have/had (FedEx is coming today... sigh) the CrossFire version. It will be interesting to see what the Blackbird comes with in early 2008 as well, as I expect quite a few upgrades to appear. Penryn/Phenom, X38 (or some other chipset), and new GPUs are all coming out soon.
Anandtech should compare the Blackbird to a comparably equipped build-your-own system, with parts matching as much as possible to see how much the custom case, the professional wiring, and other junk VoodooPC and other high end PC OEMs like Alienware really add to the price.
I don't mean Blackbird for $1500 - I just mean I want to see more interesting PC offerings in the $1500 and under range. Blackbird starts at $2500 which is pretty high-end. Now let's see some true midrange (and maybe even entry-level) stuff from HP Gaming.
why would the parts have to cost more than $1500? I'm guessing he is referring to something more along the lines of an overclocked E6xxx or E4xxx, an 8800GTS 320, etc. Say $900-1100 worth of parts plus assembly/tuning/warranty, etc.
We don't know on Crysis yet, but Company of Heroes is more dependent on the GPU, and even an 8800 GTS runs it very well (provided you don't try the crazy-slow DX10 effects). So, just as an example:
E6550 = $180
2GB RAM = $125
P35 board = $115
8800 GTS 640 = $350
500GB HDD = $100
DVDR = $40
Case = ??? (something custom would be nice if possible, or else just a decent $50 for DIY)
620W Corsair PSU = $120
Keyboard and Mouse = $50 (decent quality options)
24" LCD = $400~$700 depending on brand
Vista = $130
Rough Total = $1530 (plus shipping and tax) *with* a 24" LCD.
That's just a quick estimate, and actual prices might be off $10-$20 on some components. Still, since the Blackbird price didn't include a display, you can pretty much get a great gaming PC for $1100. $1200 will get you Q6600 quad-core as well (which of course does *nothing* for any current game I'm aware of).
Not bad. I guess I got so caught up in 'super machines' I forgot what other options there are. But man, that is kinda low end. Gotta have an overclocked 8800 GTX and I'd want an extra 10,000 rpm HD, wireless keyboard and mouse, plus you need an OS
10k RPM is 90% hype. Oh, they're faster, but it's not a night and day thing for most people. I'm still using 7200RPM drives and am quite happy. More RAM helps, particularly with Vista. Anyway, the above *does* include an (OEM) version of Vista, so basically $1530 gets you a complete upper-midrange gaming system.
Isn't that exactly what I did on page 3? Those parts and prices are what I found on the open market, and other than the case (which can't be purchased), you can get the total price. You're paying $1400 for the case and assembly (and support I suppose). That $4100 without case holds for the same parts from Alienware, Dell, VoodooPC, Gateway, etc. So, throw in a nice case like I did on page 4 and you can get the same setup as the Blackbird 002 for around $4400 (plus shipping and tax, as appropriate). Or you can go the overclocking route as I did at the bottom of page 4 and get the same thing for $3100.
I would be absolutely shocked if performance was more than 3% off with the latest drivers. As it stands, the version of the Blackbird I have for testing has HD 2900 CrossFire, and I think most people would be better off getting 8800 GTX SLI. Even Rahul said, "It's not just about the benchmarks anymore - it's about the experience." Basically, a lot of companies got hung up on oneupmanship, where they would be the "best" in some magazine review, but only by 2%. It's pretty silly, I think.
I know you are trying to make a comparison to hand built quality but it was a bit over the top. The Duesenberg is a classic and a symbol of craftsmanship in the meantime, cases and parts made in china assembled by hand does not equal classic or "well built" by any means. How many cases have you seen that are "classics" today?
I'd imagine the point is that back in the day whoever bought that Duesenberg new was not buying a classic at the time either, just a nice expensive, well built car.
I would have thought after the foot-in-mouth "it takes $300 to match or beat air cooling" you guys would have had the tact to leave it alone and accept that you really don't know what you're talking about, but of course you couldn't resist the chance to take another dig at it on your crusade for air cooling, bias at it's finest, tomshardware would be proud of you.
That said from what I can see they are using a dual 120mm radiator to cool two ultras and an over clocker quad core, that isn't enough. A dual 120mm rad will cool either an OC'd quad or the dual GPU's, but with both in a single loop it's not going to be enough even if you slap some delta screamers on it and let your ears bleed. You're going to need a triple 120mm for that.
Read what you just wrote: "...they are using a dual 120mm radiator to cool two ultras and an over clocker quad core, that isn't enough. A dual 120mm rad will cool either an OC'd quad or the dual GPU's, but with both in a single loop it's not going to be enough..."
Let's talk bias for a second. Suggesting that a $300+ cooling arrangement with dual 120mm fans is not enough cooling and that *more* is required for proper water cooling of this setup illustrates the exact problem. I can get similar results from air cooled GPUs and CPUs for 1/4 the price (on the cooling side of things). Actually, it's even worse on GPUs, as the stock air coolers are "free" and water blocks are just pure expense that may not really even impact performance. Even if a triple-fan WC setup is slightly better in terms of overall cooling, that doesn't make it a great choice. Now read what I *actually* said again:
"We decided to simply skip out on water cooling, as our own testing has been less than stellar and we're finding that top-quality air cooling is still more than sufficient for the vast majority of people."
Yes, that's a terrible slam on water cooling: we find air cooling to be more than sufficient for most people. Or if you want to reverse it, water cooling is really only "necessary" for a very small portion of the market. Just like I specifically recommended AGAINST spending $1100 on a QX6850 and instead chose a Q6600 that will beat the pants off it on price and will overclock nearly as far, I chose air cooling that will cost significantly less and overclock nearly as far. While we're at it, I chose 8800 GTX cards that cost less than the 8800 Ultras and will run nearly as fast. See the pattern?
For the record, the water cooling in the Blackbird does a fine job at keeping the entire system running, and I didn't have any issues with temperatures or escalating noise levels. Without putting a similar setup into the case without water cooling and running benchmarks, I can't say for sure how much of an impact their cooling design has on overall performance and noise levels. However, if I'm building a system for myself or a friend, liquid cooling is just another expense and hassle that I'm going to avoid. I avoid RAID 0 configurations for the same reason.
Water is more complex and creates more concerns (weight, potential for leaks, installation and upgrade time and effort). Is it bad? Nope. Just like a $5500 prebuilt isn't bad, and a factory overclocked system isn't bad. It's still an expense many will bypass.
It is serious gaming machine with all you might wish. Case design is the most attractive part. But as it mentioned in review, I'm completely happy with my P5N32-E SLI + Q6600 + 2GB of G.Skill DDR2 800 4-4-3-5 + Corsair HX620 + 8800GTS 640 (probably will need to upgrade after upgrading monitor to 24") packed in Enermax CS-718 case for less then 2K $.
I would consider to by empty balckbird case for less then 200$, but it seems Science Fiction that HP will do something like this. And I don't think it's worth to buy whole computer just for the price. As for warranty, if you buy all the parts at one store, then the store is responsible for all your hardware. At least here in Israel.
I highly doubt this case, when sold separately, would be available for under $200. Antec P182 costs NIS900 (=$195+VAT), and this one is a class above it - even if you discount the integrated watercooling. My estimate for case price would be in the $300-400 range here.
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georgemag07 - Saturday, October 20, 2007 - link
I spent some time with the Blackbird at the E4All Expo in Los Angeles. Here are some pictures I took to round out the article. I was inpmressed by the design and the eSATA ports that are standard with the Machine.http://www.flickr.com/photos/8184625@N08/tags/blac...">http://www.flickr.com/photos/8184625@N08/tags/blac...
newhit - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
I've already got a Blackbird. Where does the Exhaust go on this one. Twin Akropovich straight thru pipes should realease a few extra BHP. This ones not good for pillions though.nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
I might be nitpicking but I think your prices are a bit low. HP told me they use EVGA cards and I can't find any under $630But your biggest mistaske was forgetting to add the price of the case. Your parts came to $4,102 + $300 for the case is $4,402
You said:
"All told, it appears that the case, CPU overclocking, and system assembly carries a charge of around $1400 on the Dedication Edition."
So -with- case the extra charge is $1,100 - or with prices I found at newegg closer to $1,000
I say that ain't bad.
nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
I just re-read your article and you considered the case IN the overcharge. I understand your point now. Still, if you assume a $300 case the overcharge for the COMPLETED machine is indeed $1,100JarredWalton - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
$300 might also be a bit low for this case - I'd consider it "better" than something like a Silverstone in a lot of ways, so we could probably even go so far as to say it's a $400 or even $500 case. That's the price you pay for getting something "exotic", right?As for the 8800 Ultra, you're right that HP uses EVGA on their 8800 Ultra GPUs. Unless they're getting factory OC'ed models, though, there's no real difference between EVGA stock 8800 Ultra and "Brand-X" 8800 Ultra. They all use reference designs for cooling, RAM, PCB, etc., and since HP puts on water cooling (at least at the LCi/Dedication) the stock board seems to have even less meaning.
That said, I know I saw a $590 Ultra when I put together the original price list, but the cheapest I'm seeing now is $610 (XFX). Since prices will fluctuate over time, I'll bump the price up a bit but over time the tables will undoubtedly be outdated.
nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
I asked HP if they overclocked the GPUs and they said "they already come overclocked so we didn't mess with them."I think a $1,000 charge for what is essentially a boutique PC is a bargin (compared to Falcon, Maingear, etc.! From your review I think you agree.
JarredWalton - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
Definitely. As I tried to make clear, *IF* you're in the market for an "exotic" high-end PC, the Blackbird is a real bargain compared to most other offerings. Alienware is about $500 more at least - and personally I'm not a huge fan of the "Alien Head Case" design. Falcon is about $2500 more and VoodooPC is about $3000 more. But you do get additional attention to detail with the latter two companies (and I'm sure some others that I failed to mention).I have no idea which EVGA GPUs are used, as I have/had (FedEx is coming today... sigh) the CrossFire version. It will be interesting to see what the Blackbird comes with in early 2008 as well, as I expect quite a few upgrades to appear. Penryn/Phenom, X38 (or some other chipset), and new GPUs are all coming out soon.
nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
I certainly agree about Alienware, I have always hated that case.EateryOfPiza - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
Anandtech should compare the Blackbird to a comparably equipped build-your-own system, with parts matching as much as possible to see how much the custom case, the professional wiring, and other junk VoodooPC and other high end PC OEMs like Alienware really add to the price.nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
The price for your excellent budget system was $3,125 but you want HP to get the Blackbird under $1,500?That sounds unrealistic.
JarredWalton - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
I don't mean Blackbird for $1500 - I just mean I want to see more interesting PC offerings in the $1500 and under range. Blackbird starts at $2500 which is pretty high-end. Now let's see some true midrange (and maybe even entry-level) stuff from HP Gaming.nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
But once again if the PARTS cost more than $1,500 how can the full PC cost less?strikeback03 - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
why would the parts have to cost more than $1500? I'm guessing he is referring to something more along the lines of an overclocked E6xxx or E4xxx, an 8800GTS 320, etc. Say $900-1100 worth of parts plus assembly/tuning/warranty, etc.nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
True, but in the article his DIY machine was $3,100. If I'm going to game on a PC I want at least a 24" monitor with max settings on games and 60 fps.What is the minimum price for parts that I can play COH or Crysis on and get that?
JarredWalton - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
We don't know on Crysis yet, but Company of Heroes is more dependent on the GPU, and even an 8800 GTS runs it very well (provided you don't try the crazy-slow DX10 effects). So, just as an example:E6550 = $180
2GB RAM = $125
P35 board = $115
8800 GTS 640 = $350
500GB HDD = $100
DVDR = $40
Case = ??? (something custom would be nice if possible, or else just a decent $50 for DIY)
620W Corsair PSU = $120
Keyboard and Mouse = $50 (decent quality options)
24" LCD = $400~$700 depending on brand
Vista = $130
Rough Total = $1530 (plus shipping and tax) *with* a 24" LCD.
That's just a quick estimate, and actual prices might be off $10-$20 on some components. Still, since the Blackbird price didn't include a display, you can pretty much get a great gaming PC for $1100. $1200 will get you Q6600 quad-core as well (which of course does *nothing* for any current game I'm aware of).
nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
Not bad. I guess I got so caught up in 'super machines' I forgot what other options there are. But man, that is kinda low end. Gotta have an overclocked 8800 GTX and I'd want an extra 10,000 rpm HD, wireless keyboard and mouse, plus you need an OSJarredWalton - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
10k RPM is 90% hype. Oh, they're faster, but it's not a night and day thing for most people. I'm still using 7200RPM drives and am quite happy. More RAM helps, particularly with Vista. Anyway, the above *does* include an (OEM) version of Vista, so basically $1530 gets you a complete upper-midrange gaming system.nets - Thursday, October 4, 2007 - link
Oh yes, I see Vista on there now - missed it the first time.I'd say "upper-midrange" for that system sounds right
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
Isn't that exactly what I did on page 3? Those parts and prices are what I found on the open market, and other than the case (which can't be purchased), you can get the total price. You're paying $1400 for the case and assembly (and support I suppose). That $4100 without case holds for the same parts from Alienware, Dell, VoodooPC, Gateway, etc. So, throw in a nice case like I did on page 4 and you can get the same setup as the Blackbird 002 for around $4400 (plus shipping and tax, as appropriate). Or you can go the overclocking route as I did at the bottom of page 4 and get the same thing for $3100.EateryOfPiza - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
I was thinking of actual benchmark numbers from the DIY vs the VoodooPC solution.EateryOfPiza - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
that custom bios might be something special, or maybe its a drag on performance.JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
I would be absolutely shocked if performance was more than 3% off with the latest drivers. As it stands, the version of the Blackbird I have for testing has HD 2900 CrossFire, and I think most people would be better off getting 8800 GTX SLI. Even Rahul said, "It's not just about the benchmarks anymore - it's about the experience." Basically, a lot of companies got hung up on oneupmanship, where they would be the "best" in some magazine review, but only by 2%. It's pretty silly, I think.themadmilkman - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
How long until somebody makes a knock-off of the case design? I'd be interested in one.kmmatney - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
One will probably come out of China before the HP one is available...Bonesdad - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
but it might kill your dogOwls - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
I know you are trying to make a comparison to hand built quality but it was a bit over the top. The Duesenberg is a classic and a symbol of craftsmanship in the meantime, cases and parts made in china assembled by hand does not equal classic or "well built" by any means. How many cases have you seen that are "classics" today?Probably none.
good article though :)
strikeback03 - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
I'd imagine the point is that back in the day whoever bought that Duesenberg new was not buying a classic at the time either, just a nice expensive, well built car.psychotix11 - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
I would have thought after the foot-in-mouth "it takes $300 to match or beat air cooling" you guys would have had the tact to leave it alone and accept that you really don't know what you're talking about, but of course you couldn't resist the chance to take another dig at it on your crusade for air cooling, bias at it's finest, tomshardware would be proud of you.That said from what I can see they are using a dual 120mm radiator to cool two ultras and an over clocker quad core, that isn't enough. A dual 120mm rad will cool either an OC'd quad or the dual GPU's, but with both in a single loop it's not going to be enough even if you slap some delta screamers on it and let your ears bleed. You're going to need a triple 120mm for that.
kmmatney - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
rolls eyes...JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
Read what you just wrote: "...they are using a dual 120mm radiator to cool two ultras and an over clocker quad core, that isn't enough. A dual 120mm rad will cool either an OC'd quad or the dual GPU's, but with both in a single loop it's not going to be enough..."Let's talk bias for a second. Suggesting that a $300+ cooling arrangement with dual 120mm fans is not enough cooling and that *more* is required for proper water cooling of this setup illustrates the exact problem. I can get similar results from air cooled GPUs and CPUs for 1/4 the price (on the cooling side of things). Actually, it's even worse on GPUs, as the stock air coolers are "free" and water blocks are just pure expense that may not really even impact performance. Even if a triple-fan WC setup is slightly better in terms of overall cooling, that doesn't make it a great choice. Now read what I *actually* said again:
"We decided to simply skip out on water cooling, as our own testing has been less than stellar and we're finding that top-quality air cooling is still more than sufficient for the vast majority of people."
Yes, that's a terrible slam on water cooling: we find air cooling to be more than sufficient for most people. Or if you want to reverse it, water cooling is really only "necessary" for a very small portion of the market. Just like I specifically recommended AGAINST spending $1100 on a QX6850 and instead chose a Q6600 that will beat the pants off it on price and will overclock nearly as far, I chose air cooling that will cost significantly less and overclock nearly as far. While we're at it, I chose 8800 GTX cards that cost less than the 8800 Ultras and will run nearly as fast. See the pattern?
For the record, the water cooling in the Blackbird does a fine job at keeping the entire system running, and I didn't have any issues with temperatures or escalating noise levels. Without putting a similar setup into the case without water cooling and running benchmarks, I can't say for sure how much of an impact their cooling design has on overall performance and noise levels. However, if I'm building a system for myself or a friend, liquid cooling is just another expense and hassle that I'm going to avoid. I avoid RAID 0 configurations for the same reason.
Water is more complex and creates more concerns (weight, potential for leaks, installation and upgrade time and effort). Is it bad? Nope. Just like a $5500 prebuilt isn't bad, and a factory overclocked system isn't bad. It's still an expense many will bypass.
n0nsense - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
It is serious gaming machine with all you might wish. Case design is the most attractive part. But as it mentioned in review, I'm completely happy with my P5N32-E SLI + Q6600 + 2GB of G.Skill DDR2 800 4-4-3-5 + Corsair HX620 + 8800GTS 640 (probably will need to upgrade after upgrading monitor to 24") packed in Enermax CS-718 case for less then 2K $.I would consider to by empty balckbird case for less then 200$, but it seems Science Fiction that HP will do something like this. And I don't think it's worth to buy whole computer just for the price. As for warranty, if you buy all the parts at one store, then the store is responsible for all your hardware. At least here in Israel.
Gholam - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
I highly doubt this case, when sold separately, would be available for under $200. Antec P182 costs NIS900 (=$195+VAT), and this one is a class above it - even if you discount the integrated watercooling. My estimate for case price would be in the $300-400 range here.Bonesdad - Tuesday, October 2, 2007 - link
Not worth the pretty penny to buy one, but really good looking, nonetheless.