Thanks again for another stand-out article. Despite what other may chime in (and the usual complaints by the PSU nazis that want us to spend more on a commodity component then a CPU or motherboard) this new system makes MUCH more sense than having many AMD and Intel options for what had basically become guides based on personel preference rather than rational performance. There is no reason to choose AMD for certain applications, overclocking one of them, just as there is no reason to choose Intel in others (say a sub $100 CPU). Just coming out and saying that through a build list is a wonderfull step in the right direction. I think it's crazy that users still insist on an all AMD or all Intel series of builds, when noone insists on all ATI or all nVidia.
In short, it makes much more sense to break up the builds based on the very different usage requirements - especially due to some users not OC'ing and therefore having totally different CPU, motherboard, and HSF needs than an arbitrary division of the guides based on CPU brand.
This article has all the PSU configs wrong, get at least a GOOD branded PSU for an 8800GTS
and that 700W PSU for the overclocking config is over the top over-kill.
Give the overclocking one the OCZ 600W PSU and 700W OCZ for the gaming rig.
I'd say if you want a really good PSU for overclocking or gaming, plan on spending around $120 or so, which will get you the 700W OCZ listed or a variety of other high-quality 500-600W PSUs. I will take the PSU complaints under consideration next midrange guide, but seriously for gaming (WITHOUT overclocking), the only thing that really needs more than a good quality 400W PSU is going to be SLI/CrossFire setups, and even then 400W is usually enough.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone heard about any problems with the Tuniq Tower 120 and it's massive weight? Seems like it would be a good cooler assuming it were used in a case that sat horizontally (like an HTPC), but am I the only one who has reservations about letting that brick dangle from my motherboard?
Things author should know:
1- Rosewill is one of Newegg's in-house packagers. Some folks won't or can't buy from Newegg/ChiefValue which is (I say is because they are the same company) the only place you can get the Rosewill brand except for perhaps some Mom & Pop shops who may buy stock from them.
2- Who actually makes that PSU so the folks referred to above can get one if they want (not that they would when such a unit as the Enhance ENP-5150GH exists with aPFC and full-range AC auto sensing is available for nearly the same money). In most cases Rosewill packages ATNG/Coolmax PSUs - if this IS a Deer then it should NEVER have been recommended - its output ratings are identical to the Coolmax 600 but the physical layout is not.
In any case, recommending Rosewill comes with risks - not the least of which is becoming a laughing stock in the community (again, if this is really a Deer then that might be well deserved). They do package some decent products like the R6A and R560x case lines - but unless you know the history of the OEM of the item, it's a pig-in-a-poke. Caveat emptor!
Are they really rebranding Deer PSU now? Do you know if any other brand use Deer as base PSU?
This is the worst know brand I can think of. When I worked as a technician in a computer store, every time someone brought us a computer with a broken Deer PSU inside, almost every components of the computer had blown at the same time the PSU did. Using Deer PSU in a computer is almost like putting a time bomb in it.
Anyone know whether one of the basic configurations (AMD or Intel) from this article would perform better for a system running primarily Photoshop? I had configured two systems for a friend which are very similar to those in this article and was going to let them decide based on price and the general performance difference between the X2 3800 and E6300. It will basically be a web/email/document PC with the exception of a prosumer Photoshop user.
Core 2 Duo will typically be a bit faster in Photoshop, although in my opinion having a lot of RAM is more important for most professional PS work. Now if we can just get a 64-bit PS version so people can effectively use 4+ GB of memory.... :)
Hey, I like this article. Very nicely written and "right on time"!!! Btw, if I may request, could you guys make a write up about "specialized" items? I mean, like this pico PSU and Mini-ITX combo:
I think this is the first Buyer's guide from Anandtech.com that I read that doesn't completely include both Intel and AMD. Yes it still mention what AMD could be use if you don't go with the listed Intel configuration but it doesn't tell you the price or what motherboard you should buy if you would choose to go with AMD. I know AMD is not the best way to go right now but still I find this a little confusing when I go back in the "Mid-Range Buyer's Guide, September 2005" and find this :
quote: While we are providing two Gaming system recommendations here, let's make this perfectly clear: the AMD setup will beat the pants off of the Intel setup in gaming. It's not even close, and what's more, the Intel system will cost a bit more.
But still that guide provided us with both Intel and AMD options.
Yes AMD is on the first page with Intel but it's the only page for this guide. What's happening to Anandtech integrity? Or it's just the way every guides will appear from now on even if AMD manage to get back at Intel?
If it's the case, I don't think it's a good idea because some peoples are fanboys and will never go with AMD or Intel and leaving out either Intel or AMD from a guide may leave these persons in the dark since many of them don't take times to read every articles that are published on Anandtech.
Honestly, I got tired of putting together system configurations that I really wouldn't recommend. The AMD configuration listed is very good for a midrange PC, so I included it. As a gaming platform, AMD is still fine, but if you want a high-end gaming system would you really want to pair it with a lesser CPU? Overclocking there's really not much point in getting a new AMD right now, I don't think - some of the lower end parts and the Opteron models can overclock pretty well, but when Core 2 leads in clock-for-clock comparisons and you can usually get an extra 500+ MHz out of it, it's just not even close.
Really, I thought it would be more interesting to take a look at several different options for a midrange computer rather than doing the same old thing again. The way I see it, most of the changes made are minor upgrades to the CPU/mobo, so only the other parts are really changing. You could use the base AMD system and make the same upgrades, only keep the mobo constant, and you'd pretty much be fine. I still have several dozen PCs that have AMD processors and only one Core 2 of my own, for what it's worth. (No need to upgrade any of the systems right now, as they're fast enough.)
quote: Other Thoughts: I have my Opteron 1212 overclocked to 2.9Ghz, was able to goto 3.1Ghz and possibly higher! The Scythe Infinity heatsink fits with no problems. My System: Abit NF-M2, Opteron 1212, G.Skill DDR2 800 ram, NVidia 6600, WD 250GB SATAII, Scythe Infinity heatsink.
This is from a motherboard that you guys recently did a spot light on in one of your CES articles. 900MHZ - 1.1 GHZ is a bad overclock ?
Now, on the reverse side, I'm still not quite sure it is worth investing in an AMD CPU for overclocking, Intels current CPUs seem a bit cheaper overall, but hey, the opterons might not be fully supported on this motherboard, but they seem to be working, and quite well, according to several reviewers.
You can get Opterons to hit ~3.0GHz with pretty much full stability, but when those cost as much as an E6400 that will hit 3.5+ GHz with full stability, it's pretty clear why we think Core 2 is the better overclocking choice. A 50% or higher overclock is nothing to scoff at, but E6300 is basically only limited by motherboard and RAM in many cases, and E4300 ought to hit 100% overclocks routinely. (Yikes!)
Yeah, I never said it was a viable comparison, but for die hard AMD fans, its definately an option. I mean, what I would really like to see, is some real world hard data, on an Opteron vs maybe each of the conroe CPUs. I've little doubt, all CPUs overclocked, that every Conroe would outperform anything AMD, however, how much of a real world difference would it really make ?
Some of us have already invested into AM2 systems, and could upgrade a good bit cheaper to an Opteron, vs. a C2D CPU, so the real question is, is it really worth the cost of the motherboard, to go that route, instead of just buying an Opteron? We've all seen your game numbers for FPS etc., but would those numbers really translate into a hugely noticeable difference ?
I for one, if gone C2D, would buy a top of the line i680 board (most likely ABIT), and probably an E6600, if gone AMD, an Opteron 1214-1216 (I like the even numbered, higher multiplier on the 1216), and the ABIT motherboard mentioned above. Also, since my business partner here just purchased the that ABIT AM2 board, I have the luxury of seeing it in action, before I purchase for myself.
Also, since i payed only $54 for my current system board, and not very much for the single core 3800+ im currently using, its not as though I'm out a whole lot, no matter what I do. One thing is for sure however, this motherboard WILL get replaced, I'm not too fond of it, and its not very stable compared to anything I've owned from ABIT.
How much of a difference it would make depends largely on what sort of application you're running, as well as the other hardware in the system. If you don't have a top end graphics configuration and you're worried about gaming performance, in most cases the difference between the various current processors is going to be very small. If you're running a couple of 8800 GTX cards, the difference could be quite a bit larger depending on resolution. I figure anyone that has the money to buy a couple of 8800 GTX GPUs should probably already have at least an E6600 processor, because if you're willing to spend that much money on graphics cards $300 on a processor doesn't seem like a whole lot.
Other applications (3D rendering, video encoding, office tasks) will show more or less of a difference. Core 2 Duo should be faster in most of those, especially with overclocking, but if you never happen to run any of those tasks it really doesn't matter much. If you already have a decent AM2 setup and can hold out, I would be far more interested in waiting to see what the K8L processors can manage to do -- granted that appears to be about six months out, but I doubt anything significant is going to happen in the software market before then that would necessitate a CPU upgrade. (Maybe Vista might do it?)
Yeah, well I for one, am not too enthusiastic about the socket F platforms (assuming this is what you mean about K8L). I used to follow the road maps of each side, to the point that I would be easily disappointed when the chips actually arrived. Now, I just wait, and see what happens when it happens, at least, for CPUs. Personally, the technology I've been following for a while, thats not due out until perhaps quarter 3 is PCI-E v2.0, and the PCI-E to PCI-E peer to peer communications (potential of 160Gbit/s throughput . . .). Something tells me though, that either 1) this technology will be further out than quarter 3, 2) is all smoke an mirrors, 3) will cost WAAAAY more than 10GbE currently costs now.
Anyhow, my point basically is, you can wish in one hand, and .... in the other, and see which one fills up faster. In other words, it wont happen, until it happens :)
I'm pretty sure AMD is going to release some sort of updated CPU (quad core maybe - not sure on that) for AM2 round about summer time. My understanding (which admittedly could be wrong) is that K8L will be available for socket F as well as AM2, just like the current K8 line. Socket F just supports multiple CPU sockets whereas AM2 is for single chips. That's why we have Opteron 12xx parts for AM2 and 22xx/82xx for socket F.
As for PCI-E stuff, most of the new items won't really matter on the desktop. It's like having a PC with 80GB/s of memory bandwidth; if the CPU only needs 5-8GB/s everything else is just wasted.
OK, thanks for taking some of your time to explain why you did this. I don't have any things personal against this approach since I do read every one of Anandtech articles and have no problem building a computer on my own.
I understand you got tired of writing about 2 differents builds of computer (AMD and Intel) for every guide even if one of those isn't a good choice (computing power or cost). I just found it odd to see it at this time when AMD is no so bad (I would buy a Core 2 Duo if I was looking for a computer right now but I'm still not ready to change my old one) and not a some times ago when Intel was like AMD is today, if not worst, like in the Buyer's Guide where I took my quote from.
Now if I think about it, maybe it's a good thing since it will force the fanboys to do some real research before blindly buying AMD or Intel just because of the name.
One last thing, when you say :
quote: I still have several dozen PCs that have AMD processors and only one Core 2 of my own...
Are you saying that you personally own those PCs?
If so can I ask what are you doing with such an amount of PCs?
Some of the PCs are kept up to date for gaming parties and the like. Others are just mostly sitting around waiting for me to test something on an older platform or whatever. Others are basically spare parts. In the winter, I turn on a lot of them to provide heat - I only have electric heaters anyway, so whether I'm putting the electricity into the heaters or into PCs doesn't make much difference to me. I run Folding@Home in such cases to increase heat output, and if the house starts getting too warm I shut down systems. :)
Awesome! I've been misspelling their name for years and this is the first time anyone has corrected me. Oops! Thanks -- I will see to it that they don't make that mistake again. :-)
" With either of the above systems, you should easily be able to run all current applications, along with Windows Vista, with one possible exception: games. You can even run all current games,"
Rosewill PSUs? Absolutely awful. OCZ S.O.E. ram? Horrible track record with C2D chipsets and a poor price to performance ratio. G.Skill "HK" series RAM for the OCing system? 2x1GB kits using Micron D9 are available for the same price. A $267 Super Talent kit on Newegg for example. Asus P5B-E 1.02 motherboard? Not even available in the U.S. OCZ GameXStream PSU? Such horrible voltage ripple problems that I wouldn't trust it in a budget rig. The Corsair 520w or Zalman 600w would be much better choices.
I'm confused as to how this thing got past quality control and was published.
Several editors felt the G.Skill RAM was a good choice, but the Super Talent is arguably just as good if not better. Considering the G.Skill is now out of stock, I'll switch the RAM to the Super Talent - which is not Micron D9 memory as far as I'm aware, but still uses Micron chips and performs quite well (unless you're looking at some other ST memory?). The OCZ S.O.E. mostly suffered from early P965 BIOS issues, and with the rebate it comes in as very good RAM for a relatively low price. If you don't like rebates, we would suggest other DDR2-800 RAM price at around $200, which will perform about the same (within 2% most likely). As for the rest...
There are about five different 700W PSUs available that are all based off the 700W Fotron Source. OCZ GameXStream is the cheapest at present, and despite your concerns with the "horrible voltage ripple" we have found the PSU to work extremely well in various systems. The overall experience most people have had with this PSU is very good - no product is perfect, and there will always be a few bad units out there - and for the price it's difficult to say that any PSU is universally better. You can get quieter PSUs (with lower wattage ratings - although those are mostly hype), and the Corsair 520W you mention is a good PSU. Is it better, though? That's difficult to say.
The Rosewill PSU is in a different boat. Every time anyone recommends a PSU from some lesser brand, criticisms are sure to come. Rosewill PSUs in our experience are decent, and while Deer Electronics or Solytech or whoever may be the OEM, companies can and do get better. I've got one of the Rosewill 600W PSUs running a system and I've had no complaints with it. I haven't tried to overload the PSU to make it fail, but it appears to be about as good as several other ~550W PSUs I have (in terms of efficiency) and it's quite a bit cheaper. It's also a bit more noisy, but when you've got CrossFire X1900 GPUs most other fans are quiet by comparison. When it can run a CrossFire setup without any issues, that's pretty good for a $75 PSU. Of course, I'm not a PSU reviewer, but http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=48">JohnnyGuru took a look at a 500W Rosewill so maybe you'll trust his results? Not bad for a budget PSU, and it's probably safe to say the 600W listed in this BG is of similar quality to their 500W unit.
Finally, for the motherboard I've listed the DS3 and the P5B-E, on the recommendation of Gary as he tends to do most of our motherboard reviews and he's tried all of the boards. My understanding was that the 1.02G is available in the US, but perhaps you're right. The P5B-E still offers a few features other boards lack at that price point, so depending on whether you prefer better OC'ing (DS3) or features will determine which board is right for you.
If singling out 5 components out of 31 that you dislike turns an article into a horrible mess that's not worthy of publication, I'm sorry to disappoint. I can't say for certain that every one of these components is best in class and will work with every possible system configuration out there (i.e. motherboards can be picky about RAM at times), but I can say that the configurations listed will work very well according to our testing of the various parts. Most of the criticisms you've brought up will hardly make a difference on the final result.
Let me first state that perhaps I exaggerated a bit. I didn't mean to imply that the guide was "a horrible mess." Simply put, I think the guide is below Anandtech's standards in terms of having nearly perfect product selection in the given price range. Why settle for "...will hardly make a difference on the final result" when you can squeeze out that extra little bit of performance and stability for your money?
Secondly, I'm glad that you could inform me that most of the S.O.E. problems have been fixed by BIOS updates. I'm sure either the S.O.E. or similarly priced Adata would be perfect choices for the rigs.
As far as the PSUs are concerned- as I'm sure you know, most PSU companies will use varying OEM manufacturers from model to model. The particular Rosewill PSU you chosen, because of the poor choice of OEM manufacturer, for the 600w unit is well below the standards of other budget PSUs such as the Enhance GH models available at the reputable www.ewiz.com. Secondly, there is no reason to get a 700w PSU for the system you suggested even with heavy overclocking thrown into the mix. Power consumption is blown out of proportion and quality is greater than quantity since most companies' units don't actually meet their specified outputs. Because of this, a $120 Corsair HX or $120 Zalman 600w would be a better choice. Adequate power with better quality in terms of ripple while costing less seems like a logical choice. Sure, ripple won't cause any performance problems in the short term, but Jonnyguru and others have stated that in the long run it leads to the death of sensitive components such as RAM. The FSP Epsilon-based units are some of the worst available (with the exception of the Zalman unit) in terms of putting out dangerous ripple.
The P5B-E 1.02 was renamed after the article you guys published. It was released overseas as the P5B-E Plus and is impossible to find in the states without paying ludicrous amounts. The Gigabyte DS3 and P5B-E Deluxe are both fantastic and widely available, however.
Intel doesn't offer any compelling single core solutions right now. Consider the socket 775 Celeron D 356. When compared with an older Northwood P4 CPU of similar speed [~3.3 GHz at stock speed], it would seem to be a very good price/performance ratio upgrade. Tiger Direct has it for $50, after a $20 MIR. Combine with a VIA chip based motherboard, such as the ASRock Dual-VSTA or ECS P4M800 (or similar VIA board), which can also still re-use older DDR memory sticks and AGP video cards. Might even make an interesting basis for an Anandtech review, showing the "best bang for buck" upgrades, for a 2 or 3 year old system.
Some Celeron D 356 owners have also had excellent overclocking results (past 4 GHz), depending on the motherboard used.
quote: The GTS isn't a whole lot faster than AMD's X1950 XTX, and there are even a few games where it's slightly slower,
At which resolutions? At 1920x1200, I think the 8800GTS would be the clear winner.
Also, I'd be interested to know how much difference there is between the Creative X-Fi ExtremeGamer, and the similarly priced (well, compared to your review, online I've seen it retailing slightly higher) X-Fi ExtremeAudio. The ExtremeAudio has the nicer gold-plated jacks; the ExtremeGamer actually is the first Creative card that I've seen that allows a user to plug in standard Intel-spec front panel audio. The card layouts are so different that I'm sure there has to be more differences than that; I'd like to know what those are.
If you are comparing price/performance I think the X2 4200+ would have been a better starting point. The performance difference between the 3800+ and E6300 is too significant to compare these systems.
Whether or not the Rosewill 600W is really that much better than the Fotron Source 450W is debatable
It really is. I did some research as to who really was the OEM for this particular 600W Rosewill, and it turns out that the OEM is Solytech (the UL label on the PSU says E223918, Googling that brings me to http://www.jonnyguru.com/SMPS_UL.htm">this list, which then tells me Solytech). These guys are the new image for Deer electronics. If you've been around the hardware world for a while, you might know that Deer PSUs a few years back were notorious for being fire hazards, nothing better than doorstops. I still wouldn't trust them today. I think it was a poor choice for your guide.
For $71, you can get a much better PSU. Antec's http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82...">TP3-430 is a good choice, and you'd be saving money. It's a Seasonic build, so you can be assured of high-efficiency, low-noise, and good power.
Your right Rosewill sucks. This guide would have been better served having recommended the entry level 450 watt Forton across the board since nothing here would be able to break 300 watts DC let alone 600 (assuming the Rosewill could even reach that point which itself is doubtful).
About the Antec TP3; it is built buy Seasonic but it has also had corners cut to reach that price point -- it is not equal to Seasonic's own units. If you want Seasonic build quality get a Seasonic (or PCP&C Silencer or Crucial) if you want the best PSU to $$$ ratio it has to be this 400 watt http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=PS-E5140GH">Enhance.
Despite the hard stance a lot of "informed enthusiasts" take on Rosewill, actual testing of a 500W unit by http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=48">JohnnyGuru.com turned in very favorable results. This is the same site that disliked the high ripple on the OCZ GameXStream 700W, FWIW (but still gave it a good review). I continue to think people are judging Rosewill without having actually tested/used any of their products. Are their QC standards as high as SeaSonic or some of the other top brands? Probably not, but outside of perhaps higher than normal DOA parts (which you just send back and get a new, working unit), they work very well in our experience.
Now, it is not the one being talked about here, but just yesterday, another IT friend of mine, got in his new thermaltake water cooled system case, and used a 350W Rosewill PSU to power up the water cooling portion (thankfully for him, his system board hadn't arrived yet), and while testing the cooling system a loud *pop* came from the the PSU, followed by a small 'billow' of smoke( he thinks he probably blew the top of a capacitor off, but didn't bother to look). The PSU continued to work for another 15 minutes according to him, but who knows what would have happened if this was powering a full system.
Yeah, a 350W PSU, would not be powering an i680 system board, with a E6600, and dual 8800GTX's (which will be his finished system), but this speaks a lot for the manufacturer IMHO. Also, I've rarely seen a PSU take out more than just itself when dying, but it does happen. In my buddies case here, he intends on this system lasting him another 4-5 years, so, having an in-expencive PSU in the mix is not an option. One last thing, JonnyGuru mentions himself, that even while the Rosewill PSU in question does perform admirably, the choice of capacitors use in it, is questionable. Anyone who has been building systems for a awhile must realize that when components die in a computer system, there is a very good chance, it is because of the caps used on one component, or another, be it system board, or PSU. I myself am a big fan of ABIT, and even have had a system board from them die after 5-6 years, because of leaking / bad caps . . .
I have been personally very disappointed with my Rosewill PSU. I bought a 400W version about a year ago to replace the generic 350W that came with the case I used for the general family PC. The Rosewill is louder and less stable. I had recently bought an Fortron Source 380W for my office PC for a few $ more than the Rosewill and have been extremely pleased.
Just thought I'd share my personal experience for what it is worth.
quote: Despite the hard stance a lot of "informed enthusiasts" take on Rosewill . . .
DO you seriously think any reseller / system integrator would recommend such a PSU ? I wouldn't. Anyone can make sly connotations one way, or another, but the simple fact is, we here have a reputation to uphold when building systems for 2nd parties, and would NEVER recommend such a PSU. Now if a customers wishes to shave costs by buying 'lesser' components, we just make sure they're informed of the possibilities, and leave it at that. It is not like every single 'cheap' PSU is garbage, most work fine, it is the ones you don't know about that creep up and bite you in the ass.
Another way to look at it is, you just dropped $1000 on a system, that will hopefully last at least a couple of years, whats another $100-$200 on a good, proven PSU? Perhaps if your computer means very little to *you* there is no harm done, when and if if fails, but I personally like the assurance that whatever I buy will be the best for the amount of money I've spent, and simply put, none of those parts would be made by Rosewill. An external USB HDD case ? sure, ok, fine, but never a PSU.
That 500W unit is built by ATNG, the 600W PSU in the guide comes from Solytech/Deer. Two completely different OEMs. ATNG is still not regarded very highly around the Internets, but they're working on it.
As for the number of DOAs being higher (which may indeed be true), what happens when the entire computer is taken out by a faulty PSU that fails catastrophically on it's secondary side? Sure they'll give you a new power supply, but you'll still be out of a functioning computer.
That unit reviewed by Jonny Guru has absolutely no bearing on the unit recomended in the article. One good Rosewill unit doesn't make the rest of them so. The only thing that matters is how the unit is built, not the sticker on the outside.
I would of recommended the Corsair HX-520 for the mid-range overclocking guide it's cheaper and performs awesome. You guys saw the 620W version take on 2 8800GTXs >_<
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Mermaidman - Friday, August 31, 2007 - link
Come on guys, my AMD Barton is getting long in the tooth and UT2007 is around the corner! :)Sunrise089 - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
Jarred:Thanks again for another stand-out article. Despite what other may chime in (and the usual complaints by the PSU nazis that want us to spend more on a commodity component then a CPU or motherboard) this new system makes MUCH more sense than having many AMD and Intel options for what had basically become guides based on personel preference rather than rational performance. There is no reason to choose AMD for certain applications, overclocking one of them, just as there is no reason to choose Intel in others (say a sub $100 CPU). Just coming out and saying that through a build list is a wonderfull step in the right direction. I think it's crazy that users still insist on an all AMD or all Intel series of builds, when noone insists on all ATI or all nVidia.
In short, it makes much more sense to break up the builds based on the very different usage requirements - especially due to some users not OC'ing and therefore having totally different CPU, motherboard, and HSF needs than an arbitrary division of the guides based on CPU brand.
Keep up the good work!
SaII - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
This article has all the PSU configs wrong, get at least a GOOD branded PSU for an 8800GTSand that 700W PSU for the overclocking config is over the top over-kill.
Give the overclocking one the OCZ 600W PSU and 700W OCZ for the gaming rig.
JarredWalton - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
I'd say if you want a really good PSU for overclocking or gaming, plan on spending around $120 or so, which will get you the 700W OCZ listed or a variety of other high-quality 500-600W PSUs. I will take the PSU complaints under consideration next midrange guide, but seriously for gaming (WITHOUT overclocking), the only thing that really needs more than a good quality 400W PSU is going to be SLI/CrossFire setups, and even then 400W is usually enough.sirdowny - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
Just out of curiosity, has anyone heard about any problems with the Tuniq Tower 120 and it's massive weight? Seems like it would be a good cooler assuming it were used in a case that sat horizontally (like an HTPC), but am I the only one who has reservations about letting that brick dangle from my motherboard?SaII - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
I have it, it works wonders, and the only ones that have problems is user error.Zepper - Saturday, January 20, 2007 - link
Things author should know:1- Rosewill is one of Newegg's in-house packagers. Some folks won't or can't buy from Newegg/ChiefValue which is (I say is because they are the same company) the only place you can get the Rosewill brand except for perhaps some Mom & Pop shops who may buy stock from them.
2- Who actually makes that PSU so the folks referred to above can get one if they want (not that they would when such a unit as the Enhance ENP-5150GH exists with aPFC and full-range AC auto sensing is available for nearly the same money). In most cases Rosewill packages ATNG/Coolmax PSUs - if this IS a Deer then it should NEVER have been recommended - its output ratings are identical to the Coolmax 600 but the physical layout is not.
In any case, recommending Rosewill comes with risks - not the least of which is becoming a laughing stock in the community (again, if this is really a Deer then that might be well deserved). They do package some decent products like the R6A and R560x case lines - but unless you know the history of the OEM of the item, it's a pig-in-a-poke. Caveat emptor!
..bh.
Le Québécois - Saturday, January 20, 2007 - link
Are they really rebranding Deer PSU now? Do you know if any other brand use Deer as base PSU?This is the worst know brand I can think of. When I worked as a technician in a computer store, every time someone brought us a computer with a broken Deer PSU inside, almost every components of the computer had blown at the same time the PSU did. Using Deer PSU in a computer is almost like putting a time bomb in it.
mostlyprudent - Saturday, January 20, 2007 - link
Anyone know whether one of the basic configurations (AMD or Intel) from this article would perform better for a system running primarily Photoshop? I had configured two systems for a friend which are very similar to those in this article and was going to let them decide based on price and the general performance difference between the X2 3800 and E6300. It will basically be a web/email/document PC with the exception of a prosumer Photoshop user.JarredWalton - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
Core 2 Duo will typically be a bit faster in Photoshop, although in my opinion having a lot of RAM is more important for most professional PS work. Now if we can just get a 64-bit PS version so people can effectively use 4+ GB of memory.... :)dm - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Hey, I like this article. Very nicely written and "right on time"!!! Btw, if I may request, could you guys make a write up about "specialized" items? I mean, like this pico PSU and Mini-ITX combo:http://fanboyreview.blogspot.com/2006/01/tech-link...">http://fanboyreview.blogspot.com/2006/0...link-pow...
http://fanboyreview.blogspot.com/2006/02/press-rel...">http://fanboyreview.blogspot.com/2006/0...ss-relea...
I'd love to see you guys build one, bring it to the test bench, and tell use where to get those parts. I just can't find them :(
Le Québécois - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
I think this is the first Buyer's guide from Anandtech.com that I read that doesn't completely include both Intel and AMD. Yes it still mention what AMD could be use if you don't go with the listed Intel configuration but it doesn't tell you the price or what motherboard you should buy if you would choose to go with AMD. I know AMD is not the best way to go right now but still I find this a little confusing when I go back in the "Mid-Range Buyer's Guide, September 2005" and find this :But still that guide provided us with both Intel and AMD options.
Yes AMD is on the first page with Intel but it's the only page for this guide. What's happening to Anandtech integrity? Or it's just the way every guides will appear from now on even if AMD manage to get back at Intel?
If it's the case, I don't think it's a good idea because some peoples are fanboys and will never go with AMD or Intel and leaving out either Intel or AMD from a guide may leave these persons in the dark since many of them don't take times to read every articles that are published on Anandtech.
JarredWalton - Saturday, January 20, 2007 - link
Honestly, I got tired of putting together system configurations that I really wouldn't recommend. The AMD configuration listed is very good for a midrange PC, so I included it. As a gaming platform, AMD is still fine, but if you want a high-end gaming system would you really want to pair it with a lesser CPU? Overclocking there's really not much point in getting a new AMD right now, I don't think - some of the lower end parts and the Opteron models can overclock pretty well, but when Core 2 leads in clock-for-clock comparisons and you can usually get an extra 500+ MHz out of it, it's just not even close.Really, I thought it would be more interesting to take a look at several different options for a midrange computer rather than doing the same old thing again. The way I see it, most of the changes made are minor upgrades to the CPU/mobo, so only the other parts are really changing. You could use the base AMD system and make the same upgrades, only keep the mobo constant, and you'd pretty much be fine. I still have several dozen PCs that have AMD processors and only one Core 2 of my own, for what it's worth. (No need to upgrade any of the systems right now, as they're fast enough.)
yyrkoon - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
This is from a motherboard that you guys recently did a spot light on in one of your CES articles. 900MHZ - 1.1 GHZ is a bad overclock ?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp...
Post #5, and I suppose someone could possibly fabricated their review, but this one person isn't the only person on newegg claiming this motherboard is a very good overclocker, perhaps you guys should convince AMD + ABIT sending you parts for review ?
Now, on the reverse side, I'm still not quite sure it is worth investing in an AMD CPU for overclocking, Intels current CPUs seem a bit cheaper overall, but hey, the opterons might not be fully supported on this motherboard, but they seem to be working, and quite well, according to several reviewers.
JarredWalton - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
You can get Opterons to hit ~3.0GHz with pretty much full stability, but when those cost as much as an E6400 that will hit 3.5+ GHz with full stability, it's pretty clear why we think Core 2 is the better overclocking choice. A 50% or higher overclock is nothing to scoff at, but E6300 is basically only limited by motherboard and RAM in many cases, and E4300 ought to hit 100% overclocks routinely. (Yikes!)yyrkoon - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
Yeah, I never said it was a viable comparison, but for die hard AMD fans, its definately an option. I mean, what I would really like to see, is some real world hard data, on an Opteron vs maybe each of the conroe CPUs. I've little doubt, all CPUs overclocked, that every Conroe would outperform anything AMD, however, how much of a real world difference would it really make ?Some of us have already invested into AM2 systems, and could upgrade a good bit cheaper to an Opteron, vs. a C2D CPU, so the real question is, is it really worth the cost of the motherboard, to go that route, instead of just buying an Opteron? We've all seen your game numbers for FPS etc., but would those numbers really translate into a hugely noticeable difference ?
I for one, if gone C2D, would buy a top of the line i680 board (most likely ABIT), and probably an E6600, if gone AMD, an Opteron 1214-1216 (I like the even numbered, higher multiplier on the 1216), and the ABIT motherboard mentioned above. Also, since my business partner here just purchased the that ABIT AM2 board, I have the luxury of seeing it in action, before I purchase for myself.
Also, since i payed only $54 for my current system board, and not very much for the single core 3800+ im currently using, its not as though I'm out a whole lot, no matter what I do. One thing is for sure however, this motherboard WILL get replaced, I'm not too fond of it, and its not very stable compared to anything I've owned from ABIT.
JarredWalton - Monday, January 22, 2007 - link
How much of a difference it would make depends largely on what sort of application you're running, as well as the other hardware in the system. If you don't have a top end graphics configuration and you're worried about gaming performance, in most cases the difference between the various current processors is going to be very small. If you're running a couple of 8800 GTX cards, the difference could be quite a bit larger depending on resolution. I figure anyone that has the money to buy a couple of 8800 GTX GPUs should probably already have at least an E6600 processor, because if you're willing to spend that much money on graphics cards $300 on a processor doesn't seem like a whole lot.Other applications (3D rendering, video encoding, office tasks) will show more or less of a difference. Core 2 Duo should be faster in most of those, especially with overclocking, but if you never happen to run any of those tasks it really doesn't matter much. If you already have a decent AM2 setup and can hold out, I would be far more interested in waiting to see what the K8L processors can manage to do -- granted that appears to be about six months out, but I doubt anything significant is going to happen in the software market before then that would necessitate a CPU upgrade. (Maybe Vista might do it?)
yyrkoon - Monday, January 22, 2007 - link
Yeah, well I for one, am not too enthusiastic about the socket F platforms (assuming this is what you mean about K8L). I used to follow the road maps of each side, to the point that I would be easily disappointed when the chips actually arrived. Now, I just wait, and see what happens when it happens, at least, for CPUs. Personally, the technology I've been following for a while, thats not due out until perhaps quarter 3 is PCI-E v2.0, and the PCI-E to PCI-E peer to peer communications (potential of 160Gbit/s throughput . . .). Something tells me though, that either 1) this technology will be further out than quarter 3, 2) is all smoke an mirrors, 3) will cost WAAAAY more than 10GbE currently costs now.Anyhow, my point basically is, you can wish in one hand, and .... in the other, and see which one fills up faster. In other words, it wont happen, until it happens :)
JarredWalton - Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - link
I'm pretty sure AMD is going to release some sort of updated CPU (quad core maybe - not sure on that) for AM2 round about summer time. My understanding (which admittedly could be wrong) is that K8L will be available for socket F as well as AM2, just like the current K8 line. Socket F just supports multiple CPU sockets whereas AM2 is for single chips. That's why we have Opteron 12xx parts for AM2 and 22xx/82xx for socket F.As for PCI-E stuff, most of the new items won't really matter on the desktop. It's like having a PC with 80GB/s of memory bandwidth; if the CPU only needs 5-8GB/s everything else is just wasted.
Le Québécois - Saturday, January 20, 2007 - link
OK, thanks for taking some of your time to explain why you did this. I don't have any things personal against this approach since I do read every one of Anandtech articles and have no problem building a computer on my own.I understand you got tired of writing about 2 differents builds of computer (AMD and Intel) for every guide even if one of those isn't a good choice (computing power or cost). I just found it odd to see it at this time when AMD is no so bad (I would buy a Core 2 Duo if I was looking for a computer right now but I'm still not ready to change my old one) and not a some times ago when Intel was like AMD is today, if not worst, like in the Buyer's Guide where I took my quote from.
Now if I think about it, maybe it's a good thing since it will force the fanboys to do some real research before blindly buying AMD or Intel just because of the name.
One last thing, when you say :
Are you saying that you personally own those PCs?
If so can I ask what are you doing with such an amount of PCs?
JarredWalton - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
Some of the PCs are kept up to date for gaming parties and the like. Others are just mostly sitting around waiting for me to test something on an older platform or whatever. Others are basically spare parts. In the winter, I turn on a lot of them to provide heat - I only have electric heaters anyway, so whether I'm putting the electricity into the heaters or into PCs doesn't make much difference to me. I run Folding@Home in such cases to increase heat output, and if the house starts getting too warm I shut down systems. :)chrnochime - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Basic Config - AccessoriesBoth times that Fortron appeared, it was written as "Fotron". FSP would probably appreciate that you spell their name correctly....
JarredWalton - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Awesome! I've been misspelling their name for years and this is the first time anyone has corrected me. Oops! Thanks -- I will see to it that they don't make that mistake again. :-)JarredWalton - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Speech recognition. "they" = "I"noxipoo - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
should be around $1500.screech - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
basic midrange page:" With either of the above systems, you should easily be able to run all current applications, along with Windows Vista, with one possible exception: games. You can even run all current games,"
Perhaps a little rewording is in order? ;)
JarredWalton - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Not sure what you mean - maybe I'm just blind. Basically, you can run all current games, but not at maximum detail, hence it's a "possible exception".dqniel - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Rosewill PSUs? Absolutely awful. OCZ S.O.E. ram? Horrible track record with C2D chipsets and a poor price to performance ratio. G.Skill "HK" series RAM for the OCing system? 2x1GB kits using Micron D9 are available for the same price. A $267 Super Talent kit on Newegg for example. Asus P5B-E 1.02 motherboard? Not even available in the U.S. OCZ GameXStream PSU? Such horrible voltage ripple problems that I wouldn't trust it in a budget rig. The Corsair 520w or Zalman 600w would be much better choices.I'm confused as to how this thing got past quality control and was published.
JarredWalton - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Several editors felt the G.Skill RAM was a good choice, but the Super Talent is arguably just as good if not better. Considering the G.Skill is now out of stock, I'll switch the RAM to the Super Talent - which is not Micron D9 memory as far as I'm aware, but still uses Micron chips and performs quite well (unless you're looking at some other ST memory?). The OCZ S.O.E. mostly suffered from early P965 BIOS issues, and with the rebate it comes in as very good RAM for a relatively low price. If you don't like rebates, we would suggest other DDR2-800 RAM price at around $200, which will perform about the same (within 2% most likely). As for the rest...There are about five different 700W PSUs available that are all based off the 700W Fotron Source. OCZ GameXStream is the cheapest at present, and despite your concerns with the "horrible voltage ripple" we have found the PSU to work extremely well in various systems. The overall experience most people have had with this PSU is very good - no product is perfect, and there will always be a few bad units out there - and for the price it's difficult to say that any PSU is universally better. You can get quieter PSUs (with lower wattage ratings - although those are mostly hype), and the Corsair 520W you mention is a good PSU. Is it better, though? That's difficult to say.
The Rosewill PSU is in a different boat. Every time anyone recommends a PSU from some lesser brand, criticisms are sure to come. Rosewill PSUs in our experience are decent, and while Deer Electronics or Solytech or whoever may be the OEM, companies can and do get better. I've got one of the Rosewill 600W PSUs running a system and I've had no complaints with it. I haven't tried to overload the PSU to make it fail, but it appears to be about as good as several other ~550W PSUs I have (in terms of efficiency) and it's quite a bit cheaper. It's also a bit more noisy, but when you've got CrossFire X1900 GPUs most other fans are quiet by comparison. When it can run a CrossFire setup without any issues, that's pretty good for a $75 PSU. Of course, I'm not a PSU reviewer, but http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=48">JohnnyGuru took a look at a 500W Rosewill so maybe you'll trust his results? Not bad for a budget PSU, and it's probably safe to say the 600W listed in this BG is of similar quality to their 500W unit.
Finally, for the motherboard I've listed the DS3 and the P5B-E, on the recommendation of Gary as he tends to do most of our motherboard reviews and he's tried all of the boards. My understanding was that the 1.02G is available in the US, but perhaps you're right. The P5B-E still offers a few features other boards lack at that price point, so depending on whether you prefer better OC'ing (DS3) or features will determine which board is right for you.
If singling out 5 components out of 31 that you dislike turns an article into a horrible mess that's not worthy of publication, I'm sorry to disappoint. I can't say for certain that every one of these components is best in class and will work with every possible system configuration out there (i.e. motherboards can be picky about RAM at times), but I can say that the configurations listed will work very well according to our testing of the various parts. Most of the criticisms you've brought up will hardly make a difference on the final result.
dqniel - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Let me first state that perhaps I exaggerated a bit. I didn't mean to imply that the guide was "a horrible mess." Simply put, I think the guide is below Anandtech's standards in terms of having nearly perfect product selection in the given price range. Why settle for "...will hardly make a difference on the final result" when you can squeeze out that extra little bit of performance and stability for your money?I'm sticking by my Super Talent remark in that it has D9GMH chips: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82...">http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82... (this particular model)
Secondly, I'm glad that you could inform me that most of the S.O.E. problems have been fixed by BIOS updates. I'm sure either the S.O.E. or similarly priced Adata would be perfect choices for the rigs.
As far as the PSUs are concerned- as I'm sure you know, most PSU companies will use varying OEM manufacturers from model to model. The particular Rosewill PSU you chosen, because of the poor choice of OEM manufacturer, for the 600w unit is well below the standards of other budget PSUs such as the Enhance GH models available at the reputable www.ewiz.com. Secondly, there is no reason to get a 700w PSU for the system you suggested even with heavy overclocking thrown into the mix. Power consumption is blown out of proportion and quality is greater than quantity since most companies' units don't actually meet their specified outputs. Because of this, a $120 Corsair HX or $120 Zalman 600w would be a better choice. Adequate power with better quality in terms of ripple while costing less seems like a logical choice. Sure, ripple won't cause any performance problems in the short term, but Jonnyguru and others have stated that in the long run it leads to the death of sensitive components such as RAM. The FSP Epsilon-based units are some of the worst available (with the exception of the Zalman unit) in terms of putting out dangerous ripple.
The P5B-E 1.02 was renamed after the article you guys published. It was released overseas as the P5B-E Plus and is impossible to find in the states without paying ludicrous amounts. The Gigabyte DS3 and P5B-E Deluxe are both fantastic and widely available, however.
vailr - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Intel doesn't offer any compelling single core solutions right now.Consider the socket 775 Celeron D 356. When compared with an older Northwood P4 CPU of similar speed [~3.3 GHz at stock speed], it would seem to be a very good price/performance ratio upgrade. Tiger Direct has it for $50, after a $20 MIR. Combine with a VIA chip based motherboard, such as the ASRock Dual-VSTA or ECS P4M800 (or similar VIA board), which can also still re-use older DDR memory sticks and AGP video cards. Might even make an interesting basis for an Anandtech review, showing the "best bang for buck" upgrades, for a 2 or 3 year old system.
Some Celeron D 356 owners have also had excellent overclocking results (past 4 GHz), depending on the motherboard used.
mino - Saturday, January 20, 2007 - link
When compared with an older Northwood P4 CPUWell, the problem is A64 3200+ goes for $60.
$5 cheaper than 356...
LoneWolf15 - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
At which resolutions? At 1920x1200, I think the 8800GTS would be the clear winner.
Also, I'd be interested to know how much difference there is between the Creative X-Fi ExtremeGamer, and the similarly priced (well, compared to your review, online I've seen it retailing slightly higher) X-Fi ExtremeAudio. The ExtremeAudio has the nicer gold-plated jacks; the ExtremeGamer actually is the first Creative card that I've seen that allows a user to plug in standard Intel-spec front panel audio. The card layouts are so different that I'm sure there has to be more differences than that; I'd like to know what those are.
uofahoefx - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
If you are comparing price/performance I think the X2 4200+ would have been a better starting point. The performance difference between the 3800+ and E6300 is too significant to compare these systems.KorruptioN - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Whether or not the Rosewill 600W is really that much better than the Fotron Source 450W is debatableIt really is. I did some research as to who really was the OEM for this particular 600W Rosewill, and it turns out that the OEM is Solytech (the UL label on the PSU says E223918, Googling that brings me to http://www.jonnyguru.com/SMPS_UL.htm">this list, which then tells me Solytech). These guys are the new image for Deer electronics. If you've been around the hardware world for a while, you might know that Deer PSUs a few years back were notorious for being fire hazards, nothing better than doorstops. I still wouldn't trust them today. I think it was a poor choice for your guide.
For $71, you can get a much better PSU. Antec's http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82...">TP3-430 is a good choice, and you'd be saving money. It's a Seasonic build, so you can be assured of high-efficiency, low-noise, and good power.
Operandi - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Your right Rosewill sucks. This guide would have been better served having recommended the entry level 450 watt Forton across the board since nothing here would be able to break 300 watts DC let alone 600 (assuming the Rosewill could even reach that point which itself is doubtful).About the Antec TP3; it is built buy Seasonic but it has also had corners cut to reach that price point -- it is not equal to Seasonic's own units. If you want Seasonic build quality get a Seasonic (or PCP&C Silencer or Crucial) if you want the best PSU to $$$ ratio it has to be this 400 watt http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=PS-E5140GH">Enhance.
JarredWalton - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Despite the hard stance a lot of "informed enthusiasts" take on Rosewill, actual testing of a 500W unit by http://www.jonnyguru.com/review_details.php?id=48">JohnnyGuru.com turned in very favorable results. This is the same site that disliked the high ripple on the OCZ GameXStream 700W, FWIW (but still gave it a good review). I continue to think people are judging Rosewill without having actually tested/used any of their products. Are their QC standards as high as SeaSonic or some of the other top brands? Probably not, but outside of perhaps higher than normal DOA parts (which you just send back and get a new, working unit), they work very well in our experience.yyrkoon - Sunday, January 21, 2007 - link
Now, it is not the one being talked about here, but just yesterday, another IT friend of mine, got in his new thermaltake water cooled system case, and used a 350W Rosewill PSU to power up the water cooling portion (thankfully for him, his system board hadn't arrived yet), and while testing the cooling system a loud *pop* came from the the PSU, followed by a small 'billow' of smoke( he thinks he probably blew the top of a capacitor off, but didn't bother to look). The PSU continued to work for another 15 minutes according to him, but who knows what would have happened if this was powering a full system.Yeah, a 350W PSU, would not be powering an i680 system board, with a E6600, and dual 8800GTX's (which will be his finished system), but this speaks a lot for the manufacturer IMHO. Also, I've rarely seen a PSU take out more than just itself when dying, but it does happen. In my buddies case here, he intends on this system lasting him another 4-5 years, so, having an in-expencive PSU in the mix is not an option. One last thing, JonnyGuru mentions himself, that even while the Rosewill PSU in question does perform admirably, the choice of capacitors use in it, is questionable. Anyone who has been building systems for a awhile must realize that when components die in a computer system, there is a very good chance, it is because of the caps used on one component, or another, be it system board, or PSU. I myself am a big fan of ABIT, and even have had a system board from them die after 5-6 years, because of leaking / bad caps . . .
mostlyprudent - Saturday, January 20, 2007 - link
I have been personally very disappointed with my Rosewill PSU. I bought a 400W version about a year ago to replace the generic 350W that came with the case I used for the general family PC. The Rosewill is louder and less stable. I had recently bought an Fortron Source 380W for my office PC for a few $ more than the Rosewill and have been extremely pleased.Just thought I'd share my personal experience for what it is worth.
yyrkoon - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
DO you seriously think any reseller / system integrator would recommend such a PSU ? I wouldn't. Anyone can make sly connotations one way, or another, but the simple fact is, we here have a reputation to uphold when building systems for 2nd parties, and would NEVER recommend such a PSU. Now if a customers wishes to shave costs by buying 'lesser' components, we just make sure they're informed of the possibilities, and leave it at that. It is not like every single 'cheap' PSU is garbage, most work fine, it is the ones you don't know about that creep up and bite you in the ass.
Another way to look at it is, you just dropped $1000 on a system, that will hopefully last at least a couple of years, whats another $100-$200 on a good, proven PSU? Perhaps if your computer means very little to *you* there is no harm done, when and if if fails, but I personally like the assurance that whatever I buy will be the best for the amount of money I've spent, and simply put, none of those parts would be made by Rosewill. An external USB HDD case ? sure, ok, fine, but never a PSU.
KorruptioN - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
That 500W unit is built by ATNG, the 600W PSU in the guide comes from Solytech/Deer. Two completely different OEMs. ATNG is still not regarded very highly around the Internets, but they're working on it.As for the number of DOAs being higher (which may indeed be true), what happens when the entire computer is taken out by a faulty PSU that fails catastrophically on it's secondary side? Sure they'll give you a new power supply, but you'll still be out of a functioning computer.
Operandi - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
Rosewill has many OEMs for it's units.That unit reviewed by Jonny Guru has absolutely no bearing on the unit recomended in the article. One good Rosewill unit doesn't make the rest of them so. The only thing that matters is how the unit is built, not the sticker on the outside.
crydee - Friday, January 19, 2007 - link
I would of recommended the Corsair HX-520 for the mid-range overclocking guide it's cheaper and performs awesome. You guys saw the 620W version take on 2 8800GTXs >_<