I guess mostly, because they didn't have to re-design a previous AD board that way: DDR5 was outrageous back then.
Then that substantial boost is mostly a myth, especially on these NUCs where very few people run workloads that are *still* RAM bandwidth constrained, after Intel has invested most of the chip area into really sophisticated caches.
NUCs are mostly designed for relatively light workloads, the high-end NUCs to handly short peaks as if they were potent desktops. I use them as µ-servers, but again not for sustained high-rate workloads, where these would just run into thermal constraints.
The major benefit of faster RAM is slightly better iGPU performance, but few if any buy this class of NUC for GPGPU or gaming.
I quite like the fact that I could reuse existing DRAM sticks, even if they are wonderfully cheap these days. I certainly paid dearly for my DDR4 SO-DIMMS when they weren't.
Of course if you buy fresh today, you may want to use a model with DDR5 for better future RAM reuse, but those are around, too.
Literally about 2 days ago, SimplyNUC announced an i9-powered 4x4 NUC, which they also claimed was the first. So which is it? Who was first? Is SimplyNUC just white-labeling Geekom's product? The pictures look similar but distinct.
The are pretty much identical in industrial design and ports layout.. only difference is that 2 Type-A ports in the Onyx are USB 2.0 vs (1x 2.0 + 1x 3.2Gen2) in the IT13, and the two USB4 ports in the Onyx are 20Gbps only (so 10 Gbps data + DP output), while they seem to be full-featured 40 Gbps in the IT13. And, the SDXC controller is fronted by a full-sized SDXC slot vs. microSDXC slot.
My educated guess is that SimplyNUC is using Shenzhen Jiteng Network Tech. as a ODM or OEM. That is GEEKOM's parent company. They probably have an agreement that the private label brand can't carry the same product spec as the one being marketed by SimplyNUC - so they made some port changes. But, the puzzling aspect is that the Mini IT13 is better specc-ed connectivity-wise compared to the Onyx. I know SimplyNUC does comment on AnandTech, so maybe they will let us know.
FWIW, the ASUS PN 53 and the GEEKOM AS 6 are one and the same, down to the BIOS. Only the boot logo is different (and even that goes away when you flash the latest BIOS from the ASUS support site). Something a little bit similar is going on here, I suspect.
That is a big difference. Thanks for noting. It is a pity that the high-performance memory subsystem of the Onyx is not matched by correspondingly high-performance connectivity options.
The first computer that has succeeded to use a 45-W CPU in a case with a volume of less than 0.7 L was the Intel Skull Canyon, with a Skylake CPU, wihich was launched in 2016, seven years ago.
I had some Skull Canyons and I was very satisfied with them. Unfortunately, Intel has chosen to not make any successor for Skull Canyon, replacing it with computers intended for gaming, which were much bigger.
While Intel has proven that this can be done with very good results, until this year nobody has ever made another such computer. All the other small computers with 45-W CPUs are much bigger and they are much less convenient to carry with you in a backpack or suitcase.
And yes, there are good reasons to want to carry such a computer instead of a laptop, because any laptop with similar speed and with similar peripheral interfaces is many times more expensive and it is also heavier than a computer with a volume of less than 0.7 L together with a 17" portable monitor and a compact keyboard.
So for me it is big news that finally, after seven years, a few successors to Skull Canyon have appeared, which include these two models with i9 13900H and at least one model with Ryzen 9 7940HS.
Few things are worth losing your mind over, so you're obviously right.
And yes, I've always preferred just a little more space for a cooler like the Noctua NH-L9, which needs *some* height, but not terribly much. It might, however, double the weight, because it's secret is a "solid metal heat storage tank", together with a fan, that never gets "excited".
With that cooler I can run a very similar Alder Lake i7-12700H, officially targeting 45 Watts, at a sustained 90Watts (and peak 120) of TDP, without getting screamed at or the SoC throttling.
And I can configure it to far saner levels and enjoy the fact that the Noctual cooler will absorb quite a lot of peak heat, which it then very softly blows away on those many lesser loads and idle that a bought a small and energy efficent system for.
Some early BRIX and lesser NUCs had fans which gave you a very direct acoustic read on the clock curve and that was really annoying: without heat buffer capacity or fan surface, they can only resort to rotations.
With the good NUCs you're getting a choice and can set PL1/PL2/TAU as well as fan curves to your heart's delight: I find that rather liberating, beause in earlier days you had to buy for a very fixed peak clock and thermal capacity (and systems were giant, too).
Of course it's just the current state of the art and *no longer* a major new achievement.
Now if only they could stop making ECC a drama, when it should just be something everybody chooses on their own...
There are many people for whom 2 USB C + 4 USB A are barely enough and they do not want to carry with them many dongles.
If you have no devices that need USB ports, the existing unused ports should not bother you, they can be even disabled in the BIOS.
On the other hand for the people who need those USB ports, the number of USB A ports is one of the most important criteria used to decide whether to buy a computer or not.
I will not buy a computer with less than 4 USB A ports, regardless how good it would be otherwise.
I'm curious what USB-A peripherals you're using? Dongles can be left on the ends of the cables, or on the back of the computer. Seems better to me than a new computer with antiquated (and less versatile) ports.
For some of the USB-A peripherals that I have, such as USB memories and Ethernet adapters, I might be able to buy new ones with USB-C, but there is no reason to spend money to replace them.
Moreover, there are only 2 USB-C, one of which will be almost always occupied by an external SSD and the second will be needed either for a DisplayPort monitor or for a 10 Gb/s Ethernet adapter or for a second external SSD when I need to make copies between them.
So buying replacement USB-C peripherals would make sense only if the PC would have at least 6 USB-C ports.
Moreover, I am an engineer and I need to connect the PC simultaneously to various development boards or measurement instruments, all of which have USB-A ports.
Like I have said, it matters less whether the ports are USB-C or USB-A, but 6 USB ports is the bare minimum for working normally, and this because I typically use a single port for keyboard and mouse, by using a small port-powered hub.
Keep in mind, Nicolaim has in the past advocated for all USB A devices to be thrown int he trash and replaced because out lord and saviour type C has arrived. Why would you use your old parts that still work?
Let's see: Keyboard, mouse, flash drive, printer cable, controller cable, charging cables, USB to serial adapter, USB operated fan, USB connected standing desk, the list goes on.
Now, hwo many USB C peripherals are out there? And pro tip: USB A was the standard for 20+ years, so 99% of peripherals out there are already type A and will be for a very long time.
This certainly looks very much like an original Intel NUC inside and out, so the legacy lives on, I guess.
Now, while I used to buy the taller variants of those, because I preferred to swap SATA SSDs I already owned over NVMe units, I'd have to buy, the transition to NVMe (and the resignation, that neither are as flexible as I enjoyed with trayless SATA caddies) is near complete.
Actually for swappable operating systems, these 1GB/s USB3.2 thumb drives are giving both a bit of a run-around...
But with the 2.5" drive height lost, I'd really like the NUCalikes to use the z-height for better cooling: these machines are turning into true powerhouses and replacing much bigger workstations or even servers with something that can sip low power but also rev to a punch and the prevalent notebook style blower fans are no longer a match.
If they just repurposed that space for the likes of a Noctua NH-L9 cooler, these next unit of compute devices could charm their way into mainstream with a near total lack of acoustic intrusion.
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meacupla - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
I wonder why they went with DDR4 SODIMM, when DDR5 SODIMM isn't that much more expensive, and would give the i9 a substantial boost in performanceabufrejoval - Monday, August 28, 2023 - link
I guess mostly, because they didn't have to re-design a previous AD board that way: DDR5 was outrageous back then.Then that substantial boost is mostly a myth, especially on these NUCs where very few people run workloads that are *still* RAM bandwidth constrained, after Intel has invested most of the chip area into really sophisticated caches.
NUCs are mostly designed for relatively light workloads, the high-end NUCs to handly short peaks as if they were potent desktops. I use them as µ-servers, but again not for sustained high-rate workloads, where these would just run into thermal constraints.
The major benefit of faster RAM is slightly better iGPU performance, but few if any buy this class of NUC for GPGPU or gaming.
I quite like the fact that I could reuse existing DRAM sticks, even if they are wonderfully cheap these days. I certainly paid dearly for my DDR4 SO-DIMMS when they weren't.
Of course if you buy fresh today, you may want to use a model with DDR5 for better future RAM reuse, but those are around, too.
coder543 - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
Literally about 2 days ago, SimplyNUC announced an i9-powered 4x4 NUC, which they also claimed was the first. So which is it? Who was first? Is SimplyNUC just white-labeling Geekom's product? The pictures look similar but distinct.coder543 - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
https://simplynuc.com/news/simply-nuc-unveils-the-...https://simplynuc.com/onyx/
ganeshts - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
The are pretty much identical in industrial design and ports layout.. only difference is that 2 Type-A ports in the Onyx are USB 2.0 vs (1x 2.0 + 1x 3.2Gen2) in the IT13, and the two USB4 ports in the Onyx are 20Gbps only (so 10 Gbps data + DP output), while they seem to be full-featured 40 Gbps in the IT13. And, the SDXC controller is fronted by a full-sized SDXC slot vs. microSDXC slot.My educated guess is that SimplyNUC is using Shenzhen Jiteng Network Tech. as a ODM or OEM. That is GEEKOM's parent company. They probably have an agreement that the private label brand can't carry the same product spec as the one being marketed by SimplyNUC - so they made some port changes. But, the puzzling aspect is that the Mini IT13 is better specc-ed connectivity-wise compared to the Onyx. I know SimplyNUC does comment on AnandTech, so maybe they will let us know.
ganeshts - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
FWIW, the ASUS PN 53 and the GEEKOM AS 6 are one and the same, down to the BIOS. Only the boot logo is different (and even that goes away when you flash the latest BIOS from the ASUS support site). Something a little bit similar is going on here, I suspect.meacupla - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
Onyx is equipped with DDR5-5200ganeshts - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
That is a big difference. Thanks for noting. It is a pity that the high-performance memory subsystem of the Onyx is not matched by correspondingly high-performance connectivity options.PeachNCream - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
A 45W chip in a NUC-sized box is not exactly an accomplishment to lose one's mind over.ballsystemlord - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
They just posted 2 articles about AMD stuff, so now they have to add one on Intel's products...(Just the thoughts of an evil System Lord.)
AdrianBc - Saturday, August 26, 2023 - link
The first computer that has succeeded to use a 45-W CPU in a case with a volume of less than 0.7 L was the Intel Skull Canyon, with a Skylake CPU, wihich was launched in 2016, seven years ago.I had some Skull Canyons and I was very satisfied with them. Unfortunately, Intel has chosen to not make any successor for Skull Canyon, replacing it with computers intended for gaming, which were much bigger.
While Intel has proven that this can be done with very good results, until this year nobody has ever made another such computer. All the other small computers with 45-W CPUs are much bigger and they are much less convenient to carry with you in a backpack or suitcase.
And yes, there are good reasons to want to carry such a computer instead of a laptop, because any laptop with similar speed and with similar peripheral interfaces is many times more expensive and it is also heavier than a computer with a volume of less than 0.7 L together with a 17" portable monitor and a compact keyboard.
So for me it is big news that finally, after seven years, a few successors to Skull Canyon have appeared, which include these two models with i9 13900H and at least one model with Ryzen 9 7940HS.
abufrejoval - Monday, August 28, 2023 - link
Few things are worth losing your mind over, so you're obviously right.And yes, I've always preferred just a little more space for a cooler like the Noctua NH-L9, which needs *some* height, but not terribly much. It might, however, double the weight, because it's secret is a "solid metal heat storage tank", together with a fan, that never gets "excited".
With that cooler I can run a very similar Alder Lake i7-12700H, officially targeting 45 Watts, at a sustained 90Watts (and peak 120) of TDP, without getting screamed at or the SoC throttling.
And I can configure it to far saner levels and enjoy the fact that the Noctual cooler will absorb quite a lot of peak heat, which it then very softly blows away on those many lesser loads and idle that a bought a small and energy efficent system for.
Some early BRIX and lesser NUCs had fans which gave you a very direct acoustic read on the clock curve and that was really annoying: without heat buffer capacity or fan surface, they can only resort to rotations.
With the good NUCs you're getting a choice and can set PL1/PL2/TAU as well as fan curves to your heart's delight: I find that rather liberating, beause in earlier days you had to buy for a very fixed peak clock and thermal capacity (and systems were giant, too).
Of course it's just the current state of the art and *no longer* a major new achievement.
Now if only they could stop making ECC a drama, when it should just be something everybody chooses on their own...
nicolaim - Friday, August 25, 2023 - link
Ugh, so many USB-A ports again.AdrianBc - Saturday, August 26, 2023 - link
There are many people for whom 2 USB C + 4 USB A are barely enough and they do not want to carry with them many dongles.If you have no devices that need USB ports, the existing unused ports should not bother you, they can be even disabled in the BIOS.
On the other hand for the people who need those USB ports, the number of USB A ports is one of the most important criteria used to decide whether to buy a computer or not.
I will not buy a computer with less than 4 USB A ports, regardless how good it would be otherwise.
nicolaim - Saturday, August 26, 2023 - link
I'm curious what USB-A peripherals you're using?Dongles can be left on the ends of the cables, or on the back of the computer. Seems better to me than a new computer with antiquated (and less versatile) ports.
AdrianBc - Monday, August 28, 2023 - link
For some of the USB-A peripherals that I have, such as USB memories and Ethernet adapters, I might be able to buy new ones with USB-C, but there is no reason to spend money to replace them.
Moreover, there are only 2 USB-C, one of which will be almost always occupied by an external SSD and the second will be needed either for a DisplayPort monitor or for a 10 Gb/s Ethernet adapter or for a second external SSD when I need to make copies between them.
So buying replacement USB-C peripherals would make sense only if the PC would have at least 6 USB-C ports.
Moreover, I am an engineer and I need to connect the PC simultaneously to various development boards or measurement instruments, all of which have USB-A ports.
Like I have said, it matters less whether the ports are USB-C or USB-A, but 6 USB ports is the bare minimum for working normally, and this because I typically use a single port for keyboard and mouse, by using a small port-powered hub.
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, August 28, 2023 - link
Keep in mind, Nicolaim has in the past advocated for all USB A devices to be thrown int he trash and replaced because out lord and saviour type C has arrived. Why would you use your old parts that still work?TheinsanegamerN - Monday, August 28, 2023 - link
Let's see: Keyboard, mouse, flash drive, printer cable, controller cable, charging cables, USB to serial adapter, USB operated fan, USB connected standing desk, the list goes on.Now, hwo many USB C peripherals are out there? And pro tip: USB A was the standard for 20+ years, so 99% of peripherals out there are already type A and will be for a very long time.
nandnandnand - Sunday, August 27, 2023 - link
That is not many USB-A ports, come on now.My complaint is always: no SMA connectors for Wi-Fi.
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, August 28, 2023 - link
Ugh, how dare we receive ports for our peripherals!abufrejoval - Monday, August 28, 2023 - link
This certainly looks very much like an original Intel NUC inside and out, so the legacy lives on, I guess.Now, while I used to buy the taller variants of those, because I preferred to swap SATA SSDs I already owned over NVMe units, I'd have to buy, the transition to NVMe (and the resignation, that neither are as flexible as I enjoyed with trayless SATA caddies) is near complete.
Actually for swappable operating systems, these 1GB/s USB3.2 thumb drives are giving both a bit of a run-around...
But with the 2.5" drive height lost, I'd really like the NUCalikes to use the z-height for better cooling: these machines are turning into true powerhouses and replacing much bigger workstations or even servers with something that can sip low power but also rev to a punch and the prevalent notebook style blower fans are no longer a match.
If they just repurposed that space for the likes of a Noctua NH-L9 cooler, these next unit of compute devices could charm their way into mainstream with a near total lack of acoustic intrusion.