Without looking into it too deeply, I think there has been a massive increase in fab construction around the world since 2022. It's something like nearly double of 2020, and a record breaking number currently under construction.
I think there just aren't enough specialists to go around under this boom.
Intel is building out fabs in AZ and is better to work for (scheduling and pay being predominant differences cited in print) which cannot be helping the situation.
Probably because that's a stupid and ridiculous conclusion not at all backed by any evidence. Dozens of other semiconductor companies operate here without issue, including Intel. Plenty of fabs here. Tons of tech companies. No issues. TSMC is just blaming the American workforce to save face. They're filtering for young single people who are willing to slave their time away. Their AZ plans were poorly thought out and on top of that, they expect new hires to go to Taiwan for 6-18 months for extensive training just to come back here and work a brutal schedule with long shifts in a work culture that is terribly rigid, exhausting, and abusive for a pay rate that isn't quite worth it.
The way they run things in Taiwan just ain't gonna fly in the US and they're too prideful to adapt. It's no surprise Intel has none of these issues and has a much higher approval rating on Glassdoor.
Intel sucks? They got stuck on 14nm and lost the lead for nearly 6 years, but Intel has had consistently superior manufacturing process than IBM, GloFo, TSMC, etc, for decades. Yes, occasionally someone would jump over them, but they would fire right back.
The reason people want TSMC here is because they are JUST a fab. Intel rarely manufactured for 3rd parties. So they aren't even an option for the competition. And when Intel has used TSMC, it was simply a business decision, not because they 'couldn't do it'
What's important to consider here is Intel is a profit driven company. They do not care about quantity or capacity. They care about margins. TSMC is the complete opposite: they run on razer thin margins, partially because they undercut the competition (mainly Samsung) but mostly because they constantly reinvest their profit into advancing new tech. This sounds promising until you realize how much that costs for such little return when the competition will be on par with a mature version of whatever TSMC spent billions rolling out within a year. Meanwhile TSMC immediately has to start spending billions on the next thing, or two things, simultaneously.
While TSMC may have a valuation 3x that of Intel, Intel has money in the bank while TSMC has contracts. In my opinion TSMC is about as risky an investment as Ukrainian grain. China could make them worth net $0 in a day if they invade Taiwan.
Keyword: HAD, past tense. Also, you might want to look at Intel stock price before you go all fanboy mode on Intel. I still remember the Intel Core 3rd gen to 7th gen days, how they rip us off with those 5% gains and pos products, they lost their edge and drive while chasing profits, and I doubt they will make a comeback without some significant reforms.
You are both kind of right... and definitely intel .14 was a massive shizshow, but Intel has mega $billions in reserve and plenty of time and experience to do whatever they need to. Not saying they will wind up back on top, but they easily could if they play it right.
People wrote off AMD too, now look. Don't underestimate Intel, they have the best talent in the world. Stock prices don't mean shit; if we were basing company success on valuation, Apple would be running the world, yet they don't actually manufacture a single thing and, frankly, would be out of business if TSMC disappeared as they make almost every bit of advanced silicon in every Apple product. That's a bad position for a company to be in.
Meanwhile, Intel isn't dependent on ANYBODY. They research, design and manufacture on 4 continents, 30 countries, in a variety of sectors and markets from military to consumer. Outside of Taiwan, TSMC has a single FAB in Washington (WaferTech) which is a complete failure, two research centers with a handful of employees in Texas and Cali, and a FAB in China that would seize the instant China invades Taiwan.
Intel has been an also ran since Skylake. I'll consider them top tier when they can at least match or exceed TSMC's tech. They can't even match TSMC's 4 year old 5nm process.
TSMC started volume prodution of its "5nm" process in Q2 of 2020, thats 3 years ago... And "5nm" is in quotes because its not that simple and calling it that is part marketing. The same way Intel has renamed thier process nodes, 10nm is now "Intel 7" 7nm is now "Intel 4" to match what competitors call it. Pure marketing. In the end what matters is product specs, power per watt, overall performance etc.
Anyhow, Intel stumbled BAD on 14nm, but they arent far behind at all.
No, it's an excuse for the fact that Americans smart enough to be working in semiconductors are also smart enough to not allow themselves to be exploited by Taiwanese labour practices.
I'm not sure that Taiwanese labor practices are that much worse than American labor practices (if it is even the case). Heck, some states are even legalizing child labor, since illegal immigrants aren't as easy "use" nowadays. Haven't read of any kind of child labor in Taiwan.
"The_Assimilator" probably still lives in the 70s when he thinks labor practices. Now look around you, it's okay jobs "do not pay a living wage", it's okay to hire child labor, it's okay for people work two jobs and still can't afford a roof, but when it comes to Taiwanese labor practice, you better make sure everyone gets CEO wage.
I'm just picturing the movie classic Gung Ho, where the un-enthusiastic American workers get berated by the Japanese engineers and managers for not having high enough standards for their work (at the beginning of the movie, anyway). Where's Hunt Stevenson when you need him?
He is incredibly bias due to their Wafertech failure in Washington. The irony is most of those employees were initially H401B visa workers from Taiwan - almost none of the engineers were Americans.
My first thought was to suggest they could recruit some of these mother's basement content creator types and impart useful life skills while paying them a living wage so they could become independent, but you really can't train those sorts and the attempt would get you a low-output workforce that hinders rather than helps precision manufacture.
I can relate to the situation. To give an example for a comparison, here functioning as a primary designer (the one who signs off the design, while having numerous other responsibilities and liabilities) for any institution having health or elderly care functionalities requires years of registered experience for the type and scale of installations for the particular area of construction. Finding skilled workforce, even among the ones with the right education, is sometimes very hard.
TSMC is the main political leverage of Taiwan, and TSMC is simply a hostage - if they move US defense sensitive capacity to manufacture in the US, nobody will defend Taiwan. They've done this theatre several times already, so this was expected and didn't move the financial chip markets a bit.
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Jorgp2 - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
Is it just en excuse to reduce spending for the year?meacupla - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
Without looking into it too deeply, I think there has been a massive increase in fab construction around the world since 2022.It's something like nearly double of 2020, and a record breaking number currently under construction.
I think there just aren't enough specialists to go around under this boom.
thestryker - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
Intel is building out fabs in AZ and is better to work for (scheduling and pay being predominant differences cited in print) which cannot be helping the situation.goatfajitas - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
Yup, and they are huge here. Most people with any expertise or experience in this area already work for Intel.airdrifting - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
Why is it so hard to believe that most Americans are too stupid and lacking skills?Morvas - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
Probably because that's a stupid and ridiculous conclusion not at all backed by any evidence. Dozens of other semiconductor companies operate here without issue, including Intel. Plenty of fabs here. Tons of tech companies. No issues. TSMC is just blaming the American workforce to save face. They're filtering for young single people who are willing to slave their time away. Their AZ plans were poorly thought out and on top of that, they expect new hires to go to Taiwan for 6-18 months for extensive training just to come back here and work a brutal schedule with long shifts in a work culture that is terribly rigid, exhausting, and abusive for a pay rate that isn't quite worth it.The way they run things in Taiwan just ain't gonna fly in the US and they're too prideful to adapt. It's no surprise Intel has none of these issues and has a much higher approval rating on Glassdoor.
airdrifting - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
"Dozens of other semiconductor companies operate here without issue, including Intel." Did you notice they all suck that's why they wanted TSMC here?Samus - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
Intel sucks? They got stuck on 14nm and lost the lead for nearly 6 years, but Intel has had consistently superior manufacturing process than IBM, GloFo, TSMC, etc, for decades. Yes, occasionally someone would jump over them, but they would fire right back.The reason people want TSMC here is because they are JUST a fab. Intel rarely manufactured for 3rd parties. So they aren't even an option for the competition. And when Intel has used TSMC, it was simply a business decision, not because they 'couldn't do it'
What's important to consider here is Intel is a profit driven company. They do not care about quantity or capacity. They care about margins. TSMC is the complete opposite: they run on razer thin margins, partially because they undercut the competition (mainly Samsung) but mostly because they constantly reinvest their profit into advancing new tech. This sounds promising until you realize how much that costs for such little return when the competition will be on par with a mature version of whatever TSMC spent billions rolling out within a year. Meanwhile TSMC immediately has to start spending billions on the next thing, or two things, simultaneously.
While TSMC may have a valuation 3x that of Intel, Intel has money in the bank while TSMC has contracts. In my opinion TSMC is about as risky an investment as Ukrainian grain. China could make them worth net $0 in a day if they invade Taiwan.
airdrifting - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
Keyword: HAD, past tense. Also, you might want to look at Intel stock price before you go all fanboy mode on Intel. I still remember the Intel Core 3rd gen to 7th gen days, how they rip us off with those 5% gains and pos products, they lost their edge and drive while chasing profits, and I doubt they will make a comeback without some significant reforms.goatfajitas - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
You are both kind of right... and definitely intel .14 was a massive shizshow, but Intel has mega $billions in reserve and plenty of time and experience to do whatever they need to. Not saying they will wind up back on top, but they easily could if they play it right.Samus - Saturday, July 22, 2023 - link
People wrote off AMD too, now look. Don't underestimate Intel, they have the best talent in the world. Stock prices don't mean shit; if we were basing company success on valuation, Apple would be running the world, yet they don't actually manufacture a single thing and, frankly, would be out of business if TSMC disappeared as they make almost every bit of advanced silicon in every Apple product. That's a bad position for a company to be in.Meanwhile, Intel isn't dependent on ANYBODY. They research, design and manufacture on 4 continents, 30 countries, in a variety of sectors and markets from military to consumer. Outside of Taiwan, TSMC has a single FAB in Washington (WaferTech) which is a complete failure, two research centers with a handful of employees in Texas and Cali, and a FAB in China that would seize the instant China invades Taiwan.
Pneumothorax - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
Intel has been an also ran since Skylake. I'll consider them top tier when they can at least match or exceed TSMC's tech. They can't even match TSMC's 4 year old 5nm process.goatfajitas - Sunday, July 23, 2023 - link
TSMC started volume prodution of its "5nm" process in Q2 of 2020, thats 3 years ago... And "5nm" is in quotes because its not that simple and calling it that is part marketing. The same way Intel has renamed thier process nodes, 10nm is now "Intel 7" 7nm is now "Intel 4" to match what competitors call it. Pure marketing. In the end what matters is product specs, power per watt, overall performance etc.Anyhow, Intel stumbled BAD on 14nm, but they arent far behind at all.
nandnandnand - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
The evidence shows that American piggu swine are too stupid to run a world-leading fab.Threska - Saturday, July 22, 2023 - link
Grass is always greener, except under our own feet.The_Assimilator - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
No, it's an excuse for the fact that Americans smart enough to be working in semiconductors are also smart enough to not allow themselves to be exploited by Taiwanese labour practices.heffeque - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
I'm not sure that Taiwanese labor practices are that much worse than American labor practices (if it is even the case). Heck, some states are even legalizing child labor, since illegal immigrants aren't as easy "use" nowadays. Haven't read of any kind of child labor in Taiwan.airdrifting - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
"The_Assimilator" probably still lives in the 70s when he thinks labor practices. Now look around you, it's okay jobs "do not pay a living wage", it's okay to hire child labor, it's okay for people work two jobs and still can't afford a roof, but when it comes to Taiwanese labor practice, you better make sure everyone gets CEO wage.knightspawn1138 - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
I'm just picturing the movie classic Gung Ho, where the un-enthusiastic American workers get berated by the Japanese engineers and managers for not having high enough standards for their work (at the beginning of the movie, anyway). Where's Hunt Stevenson when you need him?Papaspud - Thursday, July 20, 2023 - link
Maybe because demand is dropping?Samus - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
They'll regret it when China and Taiwan go to war and there is a blockade on exports.adenta180 - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
Many (including Morris Chang himself) have warned that TSMC going to the US was a bad idea. We are already seeing the signs.HardwareDufus - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
When China invades Taiwan... TSMC coming to the US will look like a genius idea...Samus - Saturday, July 22, 2023 - link
He is incredibly bias due to their Wafertech failure in Washington. The irony is most of those employees were initially H401B visa workers from Taiwan - almost none of the engineers were Americans.PeachNCream - Friday, July 21, 2023 - link
My first thought was to suggest they could recruit some of these mother's basement content creator types and impart useful life skills while paying them a living wage so they could become independent, but you really can't train those sorts and the attempt would get you a low-output workforce that hinders rather than helps precision manufacture.TeXWiller - Saturday, July 22, 2023 - link
I can relate to the situation. To give an example for a comparison, here functioning as a primary designer (the one who signs off the design, while having numerous other responsibilities and liabilities) for any institution having health or elderly care functionalities requires years of registered experience for the type and scale of installations for the particular area of construction. Finding skilled workforce, even among the ones with the right education, is sometimes very hard.Ananke - Monday, July 31, 2023 - link
TSMC is the main political leverage of Taiwan, and TSMC is simply a hostage - if they move US defense sensitive capacity to manufacture in the US, nobody will defend Taiwan. They've done this theatre several times already, so this was expected and didn't move the financial chip markets a bit.