The oddity is that the NUC line wasn't for just consumers as many designs were rebranded by various other companies and sold as appliances. This will have some ramifications there as those companies will have to migrate to another provider. For customers this will sting too as for various reasons they did prefer the NUCs over other options from Dell, HP, Lenovo, Asus, Zotac etc.
First off is that the NUC was the premier platform for Intel's Unite wireless display platform. Other companies like Dell, HP and Lenovo were also offering prebuilt systems for this a few years ago.
An a competitor to Intel's Unite wireless display platform, Oblong's Mezzanine used NUC hardware as the basis for several models. In particular were the Hades Canyon rebranded models that could drive six displays. That skull on the case seemed really out of place where that appliance was being sold.
Kramer Electronics has their own Intel Unite competitor for wireless display and conference sharing. Not only did they use Intel's NUC hardware, their software is eerily like Intel's own enough that I think a licensing deal involving both hardware and software exist here.
There were several MS Teams Room/Zoom Room appliances based on various NUC models. They lost favor for a bit as they didn't include native HDMI input cards, though the most recent lineup of models added one to reclaim some market share in this area but didn't catch on in time. Much like Oblong, various units with skulls were placed into conference rooms. Intel had a lot of competition here from the major OEMs like Dell, HP, Lenovo, Asus etc. Also worrying for Intel is that neither MS or Zoom are offering fully support yet for Alder/Raptor Lake putting these systems on 10th or 11th gen processors.
I recall a white boarding system built around the NUC platform a few years back. The NUC usage was eventually deprecated in favor of OPS form factor PCs that would slot into large commercial touch screen displays.
I've seen various software based media players based off of NUC hardware. A few even came with PoE hats to run without a normal AC adapter.
I know of a backend retail point of sale system based around NUCs with three shipped to each location. The management system is pretty slick running containers for the on-prem applications and local redundancy.
Given the power consumption of recent Intel products, I don't think they can continue using SFF for their CPUs and compete with AMD in performance.
Also worth noting is that SFF systems are being developed on a much smaller scale, like the EOMA68 project. Which sadly never debuted, but is still being actively developed.
Power consumption of desktop Intel is very high, but the P and H series can be used in SFF. Ryzen 7940HS is a 45W part and a popular choice for sff. Intel H series is also a 45W part, so I don't see how one can be used, but the other not.
I think there is more to it than power consumption. My guess would be cost.
Intel makes 35W base TDP CPUs, like the i5-13400T or even the i9-13900T, which would not be that much trouble to cool in a SFF system. Even with a discrete GPU.
But the mobile chips are a better idea. Meteor Lake's best iGPU might be able to match AMD's 780M graphics in Phoenix.
There's nothing wrong with the NUC concept. It's just that there's over a dozen other companies that can make them better or cheaper, while buying Intel's chips.
i9-13900T max turbo TDP is 106W, and no, it's not a huge problem for SFF boxes. Potentially harder for a laptop, but the i9-13900HX is a gaming laptop chip with a base TDP of 55W and max turbo TDP of 157W, and is intended to be used with a mobile dGPU.
The new alder-lake gracemont chips are great for wattage mini pcs. It's probably the first time their low watt cpus don't suck at normal tasks. Tremont will be even better by the looks of it.
Funny you say that. I never had anybody complain about speed. Not even with the Hasswell i3 NUCs. But I did get complaints about the alderlake noise. Pretty shoddy job they did there.
I think the main problem was that Intel's hardware just isn't small enough. If you used an ARM processor you could build a massively smaller system with similar performance.
I didn't realize Macs were the only ARM-based computers ever made. You can get ARM systems that rival the NUC for performance with boards the size of a credit card.
No you can't actually. other then the aforementioned macs. There is no consumer grade non mac ARM solution on the current market that can dance with even any recent i3. Not one you can use in an production enviroment.
Looks like the 8cx Gen 3 loses on single-core slightly. 8cx Gen 3 is probably still more expensive too, I know I've seen 1115G4 laptops around $200. Luckily, Intel has ditched the dual-core with 12th gen and improved multi-core performance.
The credit card / Pi form factor has disadvantages, and is not necessary for every application. Now we have ARM boards trending larger, such as the Pico-ITX and Mini-ITX form factor RK3588 boards.
I would get an Intel Processor N100 box before any of those though.
I am hoping they stick it out in the GPU market. I share your concern that they won't though.
I get why they got rid of these; it really isn't core to what they want to do--design and fab chips. In general, I am not a huge fan of intel but I like how they pushed the market on small form factors similar to what they did with ultrabooks.
Completely agree. Seems like with the thin hardware margins these days, OEMs need someone to take the risk to differentiate before they will jump onboard.
It's a bit of a shame. I sold hundreds, and only had issues with a handfull. I'd have the same experience I think, with Lenovo/Dell/HP etc. SFF systems. But I am Always wary about their specific drivers/ is the memory dual channel/ can I use my preferred (fastish) SSD and memory etc. Those OEM's only go for reliability. But don't care for getting the max out of the least.
This sucks. I bought a lot of these (including the Xeon/Extreme model). They were good cuz you could actually get something resembling support for them - with actual Intel people in their support forums, firmware updates, etc. Thinking about alternatives just makes me feel tired that everything in the PC industry is just absolute rock bottom cheaply made unsupported trash these days.
I had the same experience with NUCs. Loved them. Weren't the best personal computer, but definitely versatile and well supported. I had engineers interact with me a few times on obscure issues that they tried to resolve. They'd work with you. Dell etc won't do this right. This hands the SFF market to Apple and ARM.
It's a shame they couldn't have just kept 1 model around, the market does need a well-supported all-Intel (quality) SFF devices suited for digital signage, point of sale, office work, etc.
NUCs are huge anyway these days so it's rather good of Intel to do away with what has turned into a bloated SFF computer with nonstandard components. So long and no one will miss you.
Apparently Intel is now off that list too and given the company is aware of its sales volume and profitability, you should probably direct your sad attempt to set criteria in the name of being an aggressive keyboard warrior nerd toward the company you are mindlessly attempting to white knight in the face of their own product line announcements.
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Kevin G - Tuesday, July 11, 2023 - link
The oddity is that the NUC line wasn't for just consumers as many designs were rebranded by various other companies and sold as appliances. This will have some ramifications there as those companies will have to migrate to another provider. For customers this will sting too as for various reasons they did prefer the NUCs over other options from Dell, HP, Lenovo, Asus, Zotac etc.ballsystemlord - Tuesday, July 11, 2023 - link
Could you go more into detail?I never saw any appliances based on NUCs.
Thanks!
Kevin G - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
First off is that the NUC was the premier platform for Intel's Unite wireless display platform. Other companies like Dell, HP and Lenovo were also offering prebuilt systems for this a few years ago.An a competitor to Intel's Unite wireless display platform, Oblong's Mezzanine used NUC hardware as the basis for several models. In particular were the Hades Canyon rebranded models that could drive six displays. That skull on the case seemed really out of place where that appliance was being sold.
Kramer Electronics has their own Intel Unite competitor for wireless display and conference sharing. Not only did they use Intel's NUC hardware, their software is eerily like Intel's own enough that I think a licensing deal involving both hardware and software exist here.
There were several MS Teams Room/Zoom Room appliances based on various NUC models. They lost favor for a bit as they didn't include native HDMI input cards, though the most recent lineup of models added one to reclaim some market share in this area but didn't catch on in time. Much like Oblong, various units with skulls were placed into conference rooms. Intel had a lot of competition here from the major OEMs like Dell, HP, Lenovo, Asus etc. Also worrying for Intel is that neither MS or Zoom are offering fully support yet for Alder/Raptor Lake putting these systems on 10th or 11th gen processors.
I recall a white boarding system built around the NUC platform a few years back. The NUC usage was eventually deprecated in favor of OPS form factor PCs that would slot into large commercial touch screen displays.
I've seen various software based media players based off of NUC hardware. A few even came with PoE hats to run without a normal AC adapter.
I know of a backend retail point of sale system based around NUCs with three shipped to each location. The management system is pretty slick running containers for the on-prem applications and local redundancy.
meacupla - Tuesday, July 11, 2023 - link
NUC always felt like a pet project product.They were always designed weirdly, overly complex, and not in a way that made much sense.
nandnandnand - Tuesday, July 11, 2023 - link
PUCK: Previous Unit of Computing (Killed)aisuperlord - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
You need to replace P with F (Former).ballsystemlord - Tuesday, July 11, 2023 - link
Given the power consumption of recent Intel products, I don't think they can continue using SFF for their CPUs and compete with AMD in performance.Also worth noting is that SFF systems are being developed on a much smaller scale, like the EOMA68 project. Which sadly never debuted, but is still being actively developed.
meacupla - Tuesday, July 11, 2023 - link
Power consumption of desktop Intel is very high, but the P and H series can be used in SFF.Ryzen 7940HS is a 45W part and a popular choice for sff. Intel H series is also a 45W part, so I don't see how one can be used, but the other not.
I think there is more to it than power consumption.
My guess would be cost.
ballsystemlord - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
*...and compete ... in performance.* is what I wrote.Foeketijn - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
He might be right. Alderlake NUCS are LOUD. Unsellable.nandnandnand - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
Intel makes 35W base TDP CPUs, like the i5-13400T or even the i9-13900T, which would not be that much trouble to cool in a SFF system. Even with a discrete GPU.But the mobile chips are a better idea. Meteor Lake's best iGPU might be able to match AMD's 780M graphics in Phoenix.
There's nothing wrong with the NUC concept. It's just that there's over a dozen other companies that can make them better or cheaper, while buying Intel's chips.
James5mith - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
35w base TDP means a typical power draw closer to 100-200w during use. Not easy to cool in a SFF system.TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
No, it doesnt. You've never used a 35 watt OEM system, have you?nandnandnand - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
i9-13900T max turbo TDP is 106W, and no, it's not a huge problem for SFF boxes. Potentially harder for a laptop, but the i9-13900HX is a gaming laptop chip with a base TDP of 55W and max turbo TDP of 157W, and is intended to be used with a mobile dGPU.bansheexyz - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
The new alder-lake gracemont chips are great for wattage mini pcs. It's probably the first time their low watt cpus don't suck at normal tasks. Tremont will be even better by the looks of it.Foeketijn - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
Funny you say that. I never had anybody complain about speed. Not even with the Hasswell i3 NUCs. But I did get complaints about the alderlake noise. Pretty shoddy job they did there.Flunk - Tuesday, July 11, 2023 - link
I think the main problem was that Intel's hardware just isn't small enough. If you used an ARM processor you could build a massively smaller system with similar performance.nandnandnand - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
Intel made small NUCs that were smaller than a Mac Mini, about 0.5L, and they made big ones that had discrete GPUs.If you have something that is 1L or less, you probably don't need to care about going much smaller.
Flunk - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
I didn't realize Macs were the only ARM-based computers ever made. You can get ARM systems that rival the NUC for performance with boards the size of a credit card.Foeketijn - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
No you can't actually. other then the aforementioned macs.There is no consumer grade non mac ARM solution on the current market that can dance with even any recent i3. Not one you can use in an production enviroment.
iphonebestgamephone - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
Which nuc with which i3?Foeketijn - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
Doesn't really matter. i3-1115G4 for instance. The cooling solution from the Alderlake NUCS make to much noise to be useful in an office.iphonebestgamephone - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
That thing looks too weak with its 3k gb6 multi, 8cx gen 3 gets 6k.nandnandnand - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
Looks like the 8cx Gen 3 loses on single-core slightly. 8cx Gen 3 is probably still more expensive too, I know I've seen 1115G4 laptops around $200. Luckily, Intel has ditched the dual-core with 12th gen and improved multi-core performance.https://www.semiaccurate.com/2021/12/01/qualcomm-8...
iphonebestgamephone - Monday, July 17, 2023 - link
Yeah its still $600. Looks like foeketijn wasnt aware of its existence though.nandnandnand - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
The credit card / Pi form factor has disadvantages, and is not necessary for every application. Now we have ARM boards trending larger, such as the Pico-ITX and Mini-ITX form factor RK3588 boards.I would get an Intel Processor N100 box before any of those though.
TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
NUC is smaller then ARM based Mac Mini.LMFAO "BuT mUh ArM CpUs!!!11!!"
shanti_shakti - Monday, July 24, 2023 - link
Is it really? Mac Mini has an internal PSU. Total volume including PSU is about the same, from my experience.StevoLincolnite - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
Intel will probably abandon GPU's next. They never seem to keep things supported over the long term, unless it's CPU's.ingwe - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
I am hoping they stick it out in the GPU market. I share your concern that they won't though.I get why they got rid of these; it really isn't core to what they want to do--design and fab chips. In general, I am not a huge fan of intel but I like how they pushed the market on small form factors similar to what they did with ultrabooks.
TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
The NUC, like the ultrabook, came about because OEMS couldnt get it through their thick skulls how to design small hardware properly.And like the ultrabook, once OEMS were drug out of their caves and into the light, the NUC is being discontinued.
ingwe - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
Completely agree. Seems like with the thin hardware margins these days, OEMs need someone to take the risk to differentiate before they will jump onboard.Foeketijn - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
It's a bit of a shame. I sold hundreds, and only had issues with a handfull.I'd have the same experience I think, with Lenovo/Dell/HP etc. SFF systems. But I am Always wary about their specific drivers/ is the memory dual channel/ can I use my preferred (fastish) SSD and memory etc. Those OEM's only go for reliability. But don't care for getting the max out of the least.
hubick - Wednesday, July 12, 2023 - link
This sucks. I bought a lot of these (including the Xeon/Extreme model). They were good cuz you could actually get something resembling support for them - with actual Intel people in their support forums, firmware updates, etc. Thinking about alternatives just makes me feel tired that everything in the PC industry is just absolute rock bottom cheaply made unsupported trash these days.Flying Aardvark - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
I had the same experience with NUCs. Loved them. Weren't the best personal computer, but definitely versatile and well supported. I had engineers interact with me a few times on obscure issues that they tried to resolve. They'd work with you. Dell etc won't do this right. This hands the SFF market to Apple and ARM.It's a shame they couldn't have just kept 1 model around, the market does need a well-supported all-Intel (quality) SFF devices suited for digital signage, point of sale, office work, etc.
boozed - Thursday, July 13, 2023 - link
"everything in the PC industry is just absolute rock bottom cheaply made unsupported trash these days"And even the expensive premium stuff resembles this...
PeachNCream - Friday, July 14, 2023 - link
NUCs are huge anyway these days so it's rather good of Intel to do away with what has turned into a bloated SFF computer with nonstandard components. So long and no one will miss you.timecop1818 - Sunday, July 16, 2023 - link
name any similarly sized and priced competitors with thunderbolt and recent Intel CPUs. oh, that's right. there aren't any.PeachNCream - Monday, July 17, 2023 - link
Apparently Intel is now off that list too and given the company is aware of its sales volume and profitability, you should probably direct your sad attempt to set criteria in the name of being an aggressive keyboard warrior nerd toward the company you are mindlessly attempting to white knight in the face of their own product line announcements.