You have said "Full 5.1 audio is supported with speakers". I couldn't manage to get a sound from line-in port. Are you really sure?? Can you share me howto?
I standarized my company to this machine almost as soon as it came out and I have not regreted this decision for one second. Ultra stable, ultra flexible and perfect size. It even has integrated RAID!! I highly recommend this machine.
Oh, I'm serious about that. Vista will have a bunch of graphical effects that will actually leverage the power of the GPU. You should be able to drop back to a Windows XP style interface, and technically the DX9 integrated graphics should be able to handle the new UI effects... but then, technically the DX9 IGPs can run all the latest games at reasonable rates. :)
Have you tested it or is it just a guess? Actually many would like to know how high performance is necessary to achieve acceptable performance of aero-glass. Nice theme for a short folow-up article IMHO.
Just a guess, hence the "may" part. What I'm basically saying is worry about Vista when Vista is actually available. If it turns out that the graphical effects don't work well with an IGP, then you can upgrade.
I bought a HP a1250n from CC recently. It comes with x2 3800+, 1GB memory, 250GB HDD, 1 16x LightScribe DL DVD Burner and 1 DVD-ROM Drive, meida card reader, 300W PSU, MCE 2005 OS. All for just $799 AR. Upgraded to a 6600GT and plays BF2 and HL2 just fine. I configured a DIY system on NewEgg, and it is around $1,000. When compare OEM system to DIY, please also take into account of OS cost (for your DIY). I know it's not much for OEM, but it will cost you $100+ for MCE or XP Pro legally.
Bought one of these a while back to have a user test out and it's working out great. I am ordering another 10 next week, from CDW since they have them in stock, for $850 or so in a bundle with an HP 19" monitor. $599 for the system and $250 for monitor is a great deal, especially considering they both have standard 3 year next day on site support. 4 and 5 year warranties are also available for not too much more.
Oh, one odd thing though. I comes with two video ports but the DVI is digital only, meaning no DVI - VGA adapter. So if you want to use two montiors, which IS supported by the on board ATI chip, you have to use one analog monitor and one digital monitor, or buy two analog/digital monitors which cost more. I think they did this to sell the optional PCIe cards. The system is cheap enough though so I'm happy with it.
Thanks for providing this review. I would love to see more reviews like this but with comparisions to similarly specced options from DELL, Lenovo etc. No one seems to do reviews like that.
We have 100 of the SFF 5150's on order. If we are happy with them we will be ordering another 700 or so next year.
I would have liked to of seen some testing on Windows Vista beta. Most corporates lease, and any machines leased now for 3 years could easily be running Windows Vista in a couple of years time when the company updates their SOE.
I remember when HP used Delta power supplies. Who makes that one inside the computer? HP? Sure. Dell has been using low quality power supplies and their systems fail to properly turn on all the time, and for what, $5-10 dollars savings on a system?
Better to get an AMD system. Use any application that requires the cpu in a prescott based system to go 100% and the cpu fan turns on full blast. I found out that can happen just by scrolling up and down a pdf document (Acrobat's fault). Out of say 100 Dell prescott systems at work, 3 of them have their cpu fan stuck on full speed, which is extremely annoying to other workers. Well, these are the small factor pc's though. But since they are so cheap they are not going to pay $500 for their own internal IT staff to fix them (different accounts within the business).
What a lot of people miss when comparing OEM systems to DIY for business use is what to do with the systems 3 or 4 years down the road.
You just can't throw them in dumpster anymore, and most of the time you can't donate or you don't want to sell to employee's as if they dispose of them improperly, you can still be one the one getting fined by the EPA.
Buying OEM systems allows you the opportunity to lease, at very attractive rates, and if you don't lease, every OEM has a decent asset recovery/disposal service. You'll get a higher return at end of lifecycle with OEM boxes every time.
Are you sure that the disposal rules apply to low quantity home DIY PCs?
And what is to keep you from various parts in with your normal trash and letting the scavengers take the case if you don't plan to reuse it (I actually reused 2 Zeos desktop cases to build 4 different PCs over the years until Baby AT, Super Socket 7 boards were phased out)? Most likely the LCD display will be transferred to a new PC anyway or can be sold or give away.
We OEM our own corporate systems at work. I think that some of the specs in the DIY system were overdone, especially when compared to the HP. First, using a 4000+ in this type of system is unbalanced, and a waste of money. The processer outclasses the rest of the system. A 3200+ or 3400+ gets you most of the performance for a lot less money. Also, a 250 GB hard drive is great if you're ripping movies and mp3s and installing games, but most corporate users never need more than 20GB. 80 GB drives are more than enough, and a huge cost savings. Premium memory is also a waste. As you say, CL3 memory is somewhat more reliable, and significantly cheaper, if a bit dowdy, but we use it for those reasons, just like HP. Finally, the case and power supply is the hardest part of the equation, but we finally settled on an awesome Chenbro case with a 380 watt PS, which we were able to buy in pallet quantities for about $45. Each of these things saves a little money but the end result is a lot.
Last years build was as follows:
$80 MSI RS480M2-IL Radeon Xpress 200 board
$160 Socket 939 3000+ (Retail) (This was months ago, would be a 3200+ now)
$90 2x512 Kingston PC3200 (CL3)
$70 WD 80 GB SATA HDD (this would be 160GB now for same price)
$18 DVD-ROM
$45 Chenbro MicroATX 380 watt case
$9 FDD (Some people still need 'em)
_____________________________________
Total < $500
No warranty, that's in house. Most of the parts come with a warranty. If you can build 'em you can support 'em. Furthermore, once your staff has built 'em they are better at supporting them then if they hadn't. Assembly is a pain, but we come in on a couple of Saturdays to get it done 1 person can easilly assemble 4 an hour so even at overtime rates, total cost is still under $500. We assemble 80-100 once a year and roll out most of them ASAP, and keep some on hand for spares and growth needs. No OS either, but we license Windows through an entrprise agreement. If you don't have this you need to include an OEM copy of Windows.
I think you would find it tough to beat this system for anywhere near this price -- it has 80-90% of your $1100 system performance at less than half your cost. Shop the $500 price point anywhere and you're not getting a gig of memory, and you're getting Celeron doggy CPUs. And it also has the capability of accepting A64x2 CPUs -- in fact we're starting to use this motherboard with A64x2s in a rackmount case for low end servers.
quote: No OS either, but we license Windows through an entrprise agreement. If you don't have this you need to include an OEM copy of Windows.
I hope Microsoft or BSAA never audits your company. You CANNOT use the Enterprise Agreement upgrade licences for Windows on machines purchased without an OEM version of Windows.
Questions & Answers
Q: What if a volume licensing customer purchases new machines that do not have an operating system pre-installed (“naked” PC)?
A: Customers should request that their new machines come with a desktop operating system pre-installed (i.e., Microsoft Windows XP Professional, OS/2, etc.). Microsoft’s Volume Licensing programs only offer upgrade licenses for the Windows desktop license. A customer will not be legally licensed for Microsoft desktop operating system software if they acquire a PC that does not have a full desktop operating system license preinstalled and then use the Windows upgrade license media acquired through a Volume Licensing program to install a full operating system license.
I would agree the 4000+ is kind of a waste for an office system though the dual 3800+
might be useful.
You can't beat the 3000+/3200+ Compaq versions (1610NX I beleive)
of these - I've bought four over the last month -
3200+ (939skt)
256MB @ 400MHZ
DVD Rom/CDRW
80 GB HD
Radeon 200 graphics
We paid $380 US after the rebate...no way you can beat that.
We picked up 512K extra memory for $37 after rebate.
This computer is so much better than the usual crappy Celerons I am priced into buying
for my company.
IMO, the pre-built OEM systems are the best way to go for business. Sure, having in-house built system could save you money, but you lose one key element of business-computing. CTO. By doing it in-house, you have to be able to provide the same support/service as an OEM without the cost benefit of being an OEM. HP can store their spare parts much more efficiently than almost any IT department. However, since I've never done IT support for business, I'm not too sure on how the cost/benefit in service turn-around "time" is for prebuilt vs in-house.
OEM systems like these are also great for enthusiast. I.E. I just bought a Dell E510 desktop off Dell outlet for mere $310 shipped/taxed. It had P4 3ghz/ 1x256 DDR2 / 80gb WD SATA/ DVD-CDRW. It has a BTX case and motherboard, so it's relatively small (size of typical retail HP/compaq case), and it only has 1x 120mm fan to cooling. It's extremely quiet (to the point of danger, as I actually attempetd to install a video card without noticing that the computer was still on). I added about $100 worth of upgrades, mainly 1 more stick of 256mb DDR2, a used 6600 PCI-E, and a Buffallo USB Wireless aadpter. I installed my spare TV-tuner and a Chaintech AV710 I had as spare. So, for mere ~$400, I built myself a quite respectable HTPC that is dangerously silent, small, and looks nice. Overclocking and tweaking options are non-issue for its HTPC role. If I want to game, another kit of 512mb or 1gb DDR2 (for ~$40 - $70) will let me play BF2 and DoD:S quite nicely. If I went to self-build route for everything, I'm sure I would have to add about $100-200 to the equation. Also, the Dell came with Windows MCE, so that's another $100-150 savings on top.
Don't dismiss OEM as "PC for Noobs". OEM setups can be great for non-gaming use, and they certainly can be a good base for nice systems at significant discount.
The system that I reviewed was obviously a bit on the high end for the processor. That's what HP chose to send me, but many people would probably be happy with the lower end configurations. If you want to check those out, here are the links:
The $600 models are pretty good deal. 80 GB hard drive, 3200+ processor, and 512 MB RAM. It only comes with a 48X CD-ROM, but everything else is sufficient. Remember, that still includes the three-year on-site next business day warranty. For about half the price of the system I reviewed, it provides 80% of the performance.
Honestly, I threw them in for home users that might want to purchase such a system. For businesses, they mean nothing. Still, to a certain extent, benchmarks are benchmarks; many of the gaming tests are impacted by the GPU used, but if a system like this can handle high end game, it can certainly handle running Photoshop, Word, Excel, Internet Explorer, and all the other typical office applications.
I work for a small defense company (I fell/was forced into the IT position) and purchased ten of these systems for our new classified LAN where most of the work will be compute intensive applications (MATLAB simulations, for instance). I have, up until this time purhcased Dell systems because pricing on AMD systems from other OEMs was too high to justify the performance gains over the Intel systems from Dell.
It was nice to see your article follow the same line of reasoning that I did Jarred. I would be very interested in similar articles in the future, from the perspective of the small to medium business needs.
For those saying there isn't an X2 core, I can verify that indeed they do have an X2 core. I got all my systems shipped with X2 3800+ cores. I don't know if the sku numbers are right, but you can definitely get the system with an X2 core.
For the caution, the first system, which I purchased as a test system, arrived in less than a week. After testing the system with all our software and making sure there were no WinXP 64 compatibility issues, I ordered nine more on 11/23 which took until 12/14 to arrive.
I received an automatic notice from HP that there was a delay in fulfilling my order after a week and that the original ship date on my order confirmation would be, well, delayed. Since there wasn't an estimated ship date on my order confirmation, nor a new ship date on the delay notification, I can say HP's order estimation needs some work. Fortunately, this wasn't an issue for me.
I ordered the sort of bargain configuration with 160 GB drive, CD-ROM, 512 MB RAM. Because of security requirements, we are required to remove the hard drives and put them in caddies. So, I separately purchased DVD-R/W's and 4 GB of RAM for each machine. If we're taking apart the systems anyway I'm not paying 300% markup for those parts.
For what it's worth, I'm extremely satisfied with the test box I've been using for three weeks. But, you might want to talk to a CSR to see what the wait time will be if you need the systems fast.
Yeah, my company has bought a few of them too. Great little systems!
We've been purchasing HP (and Compaq before them) for a few years now and have been pretty happy with the quality & service (better than the Gateways we used to buy before I worked here).
We've been getting the $600 system which consists of an Athlon64 3200+, 80GB HDD, 512GB RAM. For our needs, they work wonderfully; sure we might consider something different for our CAD guys and graphic-artists, but for the rest of our users who are more or less just 'Office' people, they're great!
I can also attest to the shipping issues of HP-Direct. We have an account with them and for the last few years we bought direct. This past year however has changed my opinion - by June three of our six orders I placed direct were delayed beyond the quoted date (which was always about a week after the order was placed to begin with), so now I generally go through CDW, PC Mall, Insight, etc. Besides, HP is changing their business focus and are placing greater emphasis on selling through reseller channels versus direct. Will obviously still be an option though. ;)
One other thing I'm sick or people stating. Amd could not uspply all the OEMs. Of course not, becuase right now they do need to. Who the hell is goig to have the capacity to supply 5 time what is in demand. If more OEM use them they will ramp up just like every other company in the world. AMD have not had a supply problem in 4 years. Intel has had chipset supply and processor supply problems off and on for the last 3 years, but no one says let stop buying intel they can't supply us stuff. I know its not all OEM problesm since most of the buying managers are old farts, that still be believe IBM is the greatest company on earth. So you see how far behind the times they are.
it's the same old thing: no one ever got fired for buying Intel (formerly IBM). If you're an IT manager for a company, why buy AMD? If you buy Intel, and some odd problem comes up, no one will blame you (after all, Intel is THE standard). If you buy AMD, and some problem comes up, well good luck finding another job. Sure, it isn't likely, but why bother with it in the first place?
You also have to remember that even when Intel has had supply problems, those are mostly for the retail market. Big OEMs get first priority, and the bigger you are the higher your priority. Business OEM chips are almost never in short supply from Intel. It's the high-end "exotic" parts that are sometimes more difficult to buy, but the starndard SIPP components are almost always in abundance.
What really getting me about all the OEM is the way they just disrespect AMD systems.
HP's catalog does list a since AMD system. But if you talk to them in person or go on line they push how great thier AMD systems are if you bring it up. ITs like AMD is an after thought for them. But hwta really pisses me off is the way HP had push thier low cost amd systems for the Black friday sales, then all of sudden they will not sell them any more. It stays out stock on thier site. It really mean we perfer to sell intel only we only have amd to get people to look at us.
Power supplies are rated on their output current, not their input current. If you are measuring the power draw at the plug (before the power supply) then your power draw will be quite a bit higher than what the system is actually drawing (Seasonics achieve ~85% efficiency and I doubt these PSUs are comparable to those).
I would guess the efficiency of that PSU is around 80% TOPS (that's a great efficiency, since most PSUs out there struggle to hit even 75%) which would mean that your power draw is actually ~180W using a 7800GTX (225 * 0.8), which means that you should have quite a bit of juice still left (if the PSU can actually achieve a 210 or so on the 12v rail, having 70W or so on the 5v line doesn't really help).
"... but even in the worst-case scenario (i.e. using a 7800 GTX), power draw never reached above 225 Watts. You would still have enough room to add a second hard drive, assuming that the power supply can sustain 250 Watts."
That situation when the INPUT power was 225 watts most probably meant that the OUTPUT power from the PSU was likely to be no more than 180 watts. That is a full 70 watts under the 250 watts the PSU is rated at, whereas you suggest there was only 25 watts to spare. But a very good review overall, Jarred.
I understand, though I would never want to actually reach the point where I was running a PSU at maximum output power. I personally like to think of the input power as a buffer: if your input Watts exceed the rating of a PSU, you're treading on dangerous ground (IMO).
Im loving the variety of reviews coming out of anandtech recently. When there isnt much new stuff coming out (like right now), its great to have something from a totally different angle to read and chew on, like this review. The addition of the add on graphics board and 6150 comparison system was a great touch, and really helped me think about my needs for my next box.
All in all, some may not enjoy this article because it isnt a 500 card 7800GTX reference design roundup (which nobody reading can afford anyway), but i certainly think it was a good touch... if for nothing else than "Hey, lets look how an upper-mid level system from a builder performs versus a homebuilt" or "Lets look at true integrated graphics performance."
...but this article has given me more info about graphics performance than many recent video card write-ups here. You actually tested at a variety of setttings and on hardware that didn't incllde an FX-57. I know the cards may be CPU limited, but so what. I now know that I can build someone an office computer and tell them that if they add a $100 6600 they can play some pretty nice games at 60+ FPS at decent quality, something the FX-57 with all settings on 'high' articles wouldn't tell me. Please keep this trend up, and feel free to work in the other direction as well - higher levels of AA and AF and Image Quality tests.
Jarred - You and Anand continue to be my favorite writers here at AT. I really like the intro to this article, especially the background you provide. By letting us know your out-of-AT existance it makes it easier to understand why you are reviewing this particular part and how it is not an example of AT "selling out". I think this is a great example of how the internet era allows a much closer relationship between the content providers (you editors and writers) and the users (us) that can help us identify with your perspective on hardware. I strongly support this type of intro for the other writers here - let us know who you are and what you do, so we can view your opinions in the framework of your actual life.
I do my best to keep the readers happy. The extra benchmarks on this are really somewhat extraneous to the actual review, but I hope a lot of people found the numbers useful.
Jarred, I suggest correcting the last paragraph ASAP.
Why AMD decided in their (er) wisdom to use the same base number for the 2 different parts beats me.
I have a direct from an HP representative that the linked SKU is in fact an X2 3800+. Here is a direct quote from the e-mail I received:
"We actually have an X2 3800+ Smart Buy, sku # pz635ua#aba....it might be
listed incorrectly as a 3800+, but it's an X2. I'm in the process of
getting that fixed."
Obviously, that needs to be corrected, but for now I'll trust the management of the small-business division. :-)
We've got HPs at work and I'm generally happy with it for a work computer. The LCDs are fine the chip was a P43.2 which was a nice step up from a 2.2 P4. Only main issues was the lack of dual channel ram (512mb only)
Yeah, unfortunatly for some reason, corporate buyers seem to think that RAM is the least of their worries when purchasing. Faster CPU's and stuff are nice, but if you don't give it the memory to play with whats the point? A PIII 1GHz machine with 1GB of ram is still hella fast for any standard white-shirt business task.
I simply don't understand it, its a relatively inexpensive upgrade but businesses just don't go for it. Whatever, I'm sure they have a good reason.
That's not an X2 3800+. It's the standard 2.4GHZ 3800+ single core.
Regarding these HPs, I have a few of these at work. They are realy great. For $500 and change you get an Athlon 64, 512MB of ram and a WinXP Pro. Try and put a system like that yourself and you'll spend just as much or more and that's not counting the snazzy keyboard and mouse that comes with that system. It really is a good deal.
Just to reiterate, the linked 3800+ is indeed an X2:
"We actually have an X2 3800+ Smart Buy, sku # pz635ua#aba....it might be
listed incorrectly as a 3800+, but it's an X2. I'm in the process of
getting that fixed."
That's from an HP representative, one of the marketing managers of the small-business division.
If you're a business, e-Machines isn't equally impressive. Part of what you are paying for is the support. The system reviewed carries a three-year warranty (par for the course on business systems) and probably carries business-level support too. Most HP systems also use a fair number of brand-name parts (i.e., ASUS mainboards in most systems). I don't deny that eMachines has its place, but it comes nowhere near something that HP puts out.
P.S. While I like most of HP's system configurations, even home ones, I haven't heard good things about home-level support. And one other thing, Jared...why does the article say this system has a Clawhammer core CPU? I thought Clawhammers went the way of the dinosaur on Socket 939 long ago. Anything this new ought to have a Venice or San Diego core chip in it.
Well, it does have a ClawHammer -- at least the system I have does. You have to remember that AMD only has one fab producing 90 nm parts, and they have an old fab that still produces 130 nm parts. Perhaps AMD gives them a better deal on the older chips? Or perhaps it's just that this model was made a little while ago? If it had used a San Diego core, I expect power draw would have dropped another 20 W at least.
You are wrong on this. AMD publicly stated sometime in the Q2 that they have converted all of their lines onto 90nm production.
Also AMD does have only one fab - FAB30 - currently in producing CPU's. While there is FAB25 it produces flash and is part of Spansion division and there is also FAB35(or 36?) in qualification process the only fab producing AMD CPU's in volume is currently FAB30 on 200mm wafers.
Hmm... obviously I'm not paying close enough attention to AMD's fabs. I could have sworn they still had a 130nm fab making CPUs. I would have thought 130nm would be sufficient for a lot of stuff - better to keep what you have running instead of retrofitting old fabs, right? Then again, new fabs are getting more and more expensive.
Well, Austin FAB25 was not suitable nor meant for smaller than 180nm process (for logic products). AMD thus made a cash cow out of it during hard AthlonXP times. Also the capacity of any FAB is measured in wafers/time not chips pre time. In other words AMD could make twice as many K8 CPU's on 90nm than on 130nm. Couple that with huge capacity constraints AMD faced in 2005 and fact they had only one 200mm FAB and it becomes clear why not to produce on 130nm. Around this time FAB35 should come online so the tight supply of the last quarter should not repeat for some time. Also AMD's 90nm SOI process is pretty good so don't expect FAB30 phase-out anytime soon(90nm is last logic process for FAB30). Shame FAB35 wasn't online in 2005, Intel would've had a way hotter year than it had.
We’ve updated our terms. By continuing to use the site and/or by logging into your account, you agree to the Site’s updated Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.
Facebook
Twitter
RSS
48 Comments
Back to Article
ozgure - Thursday, February 2, 2006 - link
You have said "Full 5.1 audio is supported with speakers". I couldn't manage to get a sound from line-in port. Are you really sure?? Can you share me howto?bzsetshot - Thursday, December 22, 2005 - link
I standarized my company to this machine almost as soon as it came out and I have not regreted this decision for one second. Ultra stable, ultra flexible and perfect size. It even has integrated RAID!! I highly recommend this machine.trexpesto - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
That is so wrong. Or very funny. Can't tell if you are serious == great writing.
:D
JarredWalton - Friday, December 16, 2005 - link
Oh, I'm serious about that. Vista will have a bunch of graphical effects that will actually leverage the power of the GPU. You should be able to drop back to a Windows XP style interface, and technically the DX9 integrated graphics should be able to handle the new UI effects... but then, technically the DX9 IGPs can run all the latest games at reasonable rates. :)mino - Saturday, December 17, 2005 - link
Have you tested it or is it just a guess? Actually many would like to know how high performance is necessary to achieve acceptable performance of aero-glass. Nice theme for a short folow-up article IMHO.JarredWalton - Monday, December 19, 2005 - link
Just a guess, hence the "may" part. What I'm basically saying is worry about Vista when Vista is actually available. If it turns out that the graphical effects don't work well with an IGP, then you can upgrade.Ditiris - Friday, December 16, 2005 - link
I believe the integrated GPU, the X200, supports the 3d Aero Glass theme in Avalon/WPF. So, there shouldn't be any need to upgrade.I don't think this is much of an issue for business users, but home users considering the model might want the eye candy.
Foxbat121 - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
I bought a HP a1250n from CC recently. It comes with x2 3800+, 1GB memory, 250GB HDD, 1 16x LightScribe DL DVD Burner and 1 DVD-ROM Drive, meida card reader, 300W PSU, MCE 2005 OS. All for just $799 AR. Upgraded to a 6600GT and plays BF2 and HL2 just fine. I configured a DIY system on NewEgg, and it is around $1,000. When compare OEM system to DIY, please also take into account of OS cost (for your DIY). I know it's not much for OEM, but it will cost you $100+ for MCE or XP Pro legally.Lifted - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Bought one of these a while back to have a user test out and it's working out great. I am ordering another 10 next week, from CDW since they have them in stock, for $850 or so in a bundle with an HP 19" monitor. $599 for the system and $250 for monitor is a great deal, especially considering they both have standard 3 year next day on site support. 4 and 5 year warranties are also available for not too much more.Lifted - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Oh, one odd thing though. I comes with two video ports but the DVI is digital only, meaning no DVI - VGA adapter. So if you want to use two montiors, which IS supported by the on board ATI chip, you have to use one analog monitor and one digital monitor, or buy two analog/digital monitors which cost more. I think they did this to sell the optional PCIe cards. The system is cheap enough though so I'm happy with it.falcc - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Thanks for providing this review. I would love to see more reviews like this but with comparisions to similarly specced options from DELL, Lenovo etc. No one seems to do reviews like that.We have 100 of the SFF 5150's on order. If we are happy with them we will be ordering another 700 or so next year.
I would have liked to of seen some testing on Windows Vista beta. Most corporates lease, and any machines leased now for 3 years could easily be running Windows Vista in a couple of years time when the company updates their SOE.
sprockkets - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
I remember when HP used Delta power supplies. Who makes that one inside the computer? HP? Sure. Dell has been using low quality power supplies and their systems fail to properly turn on all the time, and for what, $5-10 dollars savings on a system?Better to get an AMD system. Use any application that requires the cpu in a prescott based system to go 100% and the cpu fan turns on full blast. I found out that can happen just by scrolling up and down a pdf document (Acrobat's fault). Out of say 100 Dell prescott systems at work, 3 of them have their cpu fan stuck on full speed, which is extremely annoying to other workers. Well, these are the small factor pc's though. But since they are so cheap they are not going to pay $500 for their own internal IT staff to fix them (different accounts within the business).
WackyDan - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
What a lot of people miss when comparing OEM systems to DIY for business use is what to do with the systems 3 or 4 years down the road.You just can't throw them in dumpster anymore, and most of the time you can't donate or you don't want to sell to employee's as if they dispose of them improperly, you can still be one the one getting fined by the EPA.
Buying OEM systems allows you the opportunity to lease, at very attractive rates, and if you don't lease, every OEM has a decent asset recovery/disposal service. You'll get a higher return at end of lifecycle with OEM boxes every time.
MrEMan - Monday, December 19, 2005 - link
Are you sure that the disposal rules apply to low quantity home DIY PCs?And what is to keep you from various parts in with your normal trash and letting the scavengers take the case if you don't plan to reuse it (I actually reused 2 Zeos desktop cases to build 4 different PCs over the years until Baby AT, Super Socket 7 boards were phased out)? Most likely the LCD display will be transferred to a new PC anyway or can be sold or give away.
Jellodyne - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
We OEM our own corporate systems at work. I think that some of the specs in the DIY system were overdone, especially when compared to the HP. First, using a 4000+ in this type of system is unbalanced, and a waste of money. The processer outclasses the rest of the system. A 3200+ or 3400+ gets you most of the performance for a lot less money. Also, a 250 GB hard drive is great if you're ripping movies and mp3s and installing games, but most corporate users never need more than 20GB. 80 GB drives are more than enough, and a huge cost savings. Premium memory is also a waste. As you say, CL3 memory is somewhat more reliable, and significantly cheaper, if a bit dowdy, but we use it for those reasons, just like HP. Finally, the case and power supply is the hardest part of the equation, but we finally settled on an awesome Chenbro case with a 380 watt PS, which we were able to buy in pallet quantities for about $45. Each of these things saves a little money but the end result is a lot.Last years build was as follows:
$80 MSI RS480M2-IL Radeon Xpress 200 board
$160 Socket 939 3000+ (Retail) (This was months ago, would be a 3200+ now)
$90 2x512 Kingston PC3200 (CL3)
$70 WD 80 GB SATA HDD (this would be 160GB now for same price)
$18 DVD-ROM
$45 Chenbro MicroATX 380 watt case
$9 FDD (Some people still need 'em)
_____________________________________
Total < $500
No warranty, that's in house. Most of the parts come with a warranty. If you can build 'em you can support 'em. Furthermore, once your staff has built 'em they are better at supporting them then if they hadn't. Assembly is a pain, but we come in on a couple of Saturdays to get it done 1 person can easilly assemble 4 an hour so even at overtime rates, total cost is still under $500. We assemble 80-100 once a year and roll out most of them ASAP, and keep some on hand for spares and growth needs. No OS either, but we license Windows through an entrprise agreement. If you don't have this you need to include an OEM copy of Windows.
I think you would find it tough to beat this system for anywhere near this price -- it has 80-90% of your $1100 system performance at less than half your cost. Shop the $500 price point anywhere and you're not getting a gig of memory, and you're getting Celeron doggy CPUs. And it also has the capability of accepting A64x2 CPUs -- in fact we're starting to use this motherboard with A64x2s in a rackmount case for low end servers.
gdtaylor - Sunday, December 18, 2005 - link
I hope Microsoft or BSAA never audits your company. You CANNOT use the Enterprise Agreement upgrade licences for Windows on machines purchased without an OEM version of Windows.
Questions & Answers
Q: What if a volume licensing customer purchases new machines that do not have an operating system pre-installed (“naked” PC)?
A: Customers should request that their new machines come with a desktop operating system pre-installed (i.e., Microsoft Windows XP Professional, OS/2, etc.). Microsoft’s Volume Licensing programs only offer upgrade licenses for the Windows desktop license. A customer will not be legally licensed for Microsoft desktop operating system software if they acquire a PC that does not have a full desktop operating system license preinstalled and then use the Windows upgrade license media acquired through a Volume Licensing program to install a full operating system license.
http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/4/4/14441...">Microsoft Operating System Licence Requirements
Wellsoul2 - Friday, December 16, 2005 - link
I would agree the 4000+ is kind of a waste for an office system though the dual 3800+might be useful.
You can't beat the 3000+/3200+ Compaq versions (1610NX I beleive)
of these - I've bought four over the last month -
3200+ (939skt)
256MB @ 400MHZ
DVD Rom/CDRW
80 GB HD
Radeon 200 graphics
We paid $380 US after the rebate...no way you can beat that.
We picked up 512K extra memory for $37 after rebate.
This computer is so much better than the usual crappy Celerons I am priced into buying
for my company.
razor2025 - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
IMO, the pre-built OEM systems are the best way to go for business. Sure, having in-house built system could save you money, but you lose one key element of business-computing. CTO. By doing it in-house, you have to be able to provide the same support/service as an OEM without the cost benefit of being an OEM. HP can store their spare parts much more efficiently than almost any IT department. However, since I've never done IT support for business, I'm not too sure on how the cost/benefit in service turn-around "time" is for prebuilt vs in-house.OEM systems like these are also great for enthusiast. I.E. I just bought a Dell E510 desktop off Dell outlet for mere $310 shipped/taxed. It had P4 3ghz/ 1x256 DDR2 / 80gb WD SATA/ DVD-CDRW. It has a BTX case and motherboard, so it's relatively small (size of typical retail HP/compaq case), and it only has 1x 120mm fan to cooling. It's extremely quiet (to the point of danger, as I actually attempetd to install a video card without noticing that the computer was still on). I added about $100 worth of upgrades, mainly 1 more stick of 256mb DDR2, a used 6600 PCI-E, and a Buffallo USB Wireless aadpter. I installed my spare TV-tuner and a Chaintech AV710 I had as spare. So, for mere ~$400, I built myself a quite respectable HTPC that is dangerously silent, small, and looks nice. Overclocking and tweaking options are non-issue for its HTPC role. If I want to game, another kit of 512mb or 1gb DDR2 (for ~$40 - $70) will let me play BF2 and DoD:S quite nicely. If I went to self-build route for everything, I'm sure I would have to add about $100-200 to the equation. Also, the Dell came with Windows MCE, so that's another $100-150 savings on top.
Don't dismiss OEM as "PC for Noobs". OEM setups can be great for non-gaming use, and they certainly can be a good base for nice systems at significant discount.
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
The system that I reviewed was obviously a bit on the high end for the processor. That's what HP chose to send me, but many people would probably be happy with the lower end configurations. If you want to check those out, here are the links:http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF25a/1245...">Desktop Models
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF25a/1245...">Tower Models
The $600 models are pretty good deal. 80 GB hard drive, 3200+ processor, and 512 MB RAM. It only comes with a 48X CD-ROM, but everything else is sufficient. Remember, that still includes the three-year on-site next business day warranty. For about half the price of the system I reviewed, it provides 80% of the performance.
Questar - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Nice article.I wonder though, why all the game benchmarks for a business machine?
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
I was waiting for someone to ask that. :-)Honestly, I threw them in for home users that might want to purchase such a system. For businesses, they mean nothing. Still, to a certain extent, benchmarks are benchmarks; many of the gaming tests are impacted by the GPU used, but if a system like this can handle high end game, it can certainly handle running Photoshop, Word, Excel, Internet Explorer, and all the other typical office applications.
Ditiris - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
I work for a small defense company (I fell/was forced into the IT position) and purchased ten of these systems for our new classified LAN where most of the work will be compute intensive applications (MATLAB simulations, for instance). I have, up until this time purhcased Dell systems because pricing on AMD systems from other OEMs was too high to justify the performance gains over the Intel systems from Dell.It was nice to see your article follow the same line of reasoning that I did Jarred. I would be very interested in similar articles in the future, from the perspective of the small to medium business needs.
For those saying there isn't an X2 core, I can verify that indeed they do have an X2 core. I got all my systems shipped with X2 3800+ cores. I don't know if the sku numbers are right, but you can definitely get the system with an X2 core.
For the caution, the first system, which I purchased as a test system, arrived in less than a week. After testing the system with all our software and making sure there were no WinXP 64 compatibility issues, I ordered nine more on 11/23 which took until 12/14 to arrive.
I received an automatic notice from HP that there was a delay in fulfilling my order after a week and that the original ship date on my order confirmation would be, well, delayed. Since there wasn't an estimated ship date on my order confirmation, nor a new ship date on the delay notification, I can say HP's order estimation needs some work. Fortunately, this wasn't an issue for me.
I ordered the sort of bargain configuration with 160 GB drive, CD-ROM, 512 MB RAM. Because of security requirements, we are required to remove the hard drives and put them in caddies. So, I separately purchased DVD-R/W's and 4 GB of RAM for each machine. If we're taking apart the systems anyway I'm not paying 300% markup for those parts.
For what it's worth, I'm extremely satisfied with the test box I've been using for three weeks. But, you might want to talk to a CSR to see what the wait time will be if you need the systems fast.
AstroCreep - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Yeah, my company has bought a few of them too. Great little systems!We've been purchasing HP (and Compaq before them) for a few years now and have been pretty happy with the quality & service (better than the Gateways we used to buy before I worked here).
We've been getting the $600 system which consists of an Athlon64 3200+, 80GB HDD, 512GB RAM. For our needs, they work wonderfully; sure we might consider something different for our CAD guys and graphic-artists, but for the rest of our users who are more or less just 'Office' people, they're great!
I can also attest to the shipping issues of HP-Direct. We have an account with them and for the last few years we bought direct. This past year however has changed my opinion - by June three of our six orders I placed direct were delayed beyond the quoted date (which was always about a week after the order was placed to begin with), so now I generally go through CDW, PC Mall, Insight, etc. Besides, HP is changing their business focus and are placing greater emphasis on selling through reseller channels versus direct. Will obviously still be an option though. ;)
OrSin - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
One other thing I'm sick or people stating. Amd could not uspply all the OEMs. Of course not, becuase right now they do need to. Who the hell is goig to have the capacity to supply 5 time what is in demand. If more OEM use them they will ramp up just like every other company in the world. AMD have not had a supply problem in 4 years. Intel has had chipset supply and processor supply problems off and on for the last 3 years, but no one says let stop buying intel they can't supply us stuff. I know its not all OEM problesm since most of the buying managers are old farts, that still be believe IBM is the greatest company on earth. So you see how far behind the times they are.johnsonx - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
it's the same old thing: no one ever got fired for buying Intel (formerly IBM). If you're an IT manager for a company, why buy AMD? If you buy Intel, and some odd problem comes up, no one will blame you (after all, Intel is THE standard). If you buy AMD, and some problem comes up, well good luck finding another job. Sure, it isn't likely, but why bother with it in the first place?JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
You also have to remember that even when Intel has had supply problems, those are mostly for the retail market. Big OEMs get first priority, and the bigger you are the higher your priority. Business OEM chips are almost never in short supply from Intel. It's the high-end "exotic" parts that are sometimes more difficult to buy, but the starndard SIPP components are almost always in abundance.OrSin - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
What really getting me about all the OEM is the way they just disrespect AMD systems.HP's catalog does list a since AMD system. But if you talk to them in person or go on line they push how great thier AMD systems are if you bring it up. ITs like AMD is an after thought for them. But hwta really pisses me off is the way HP had push thier low cost amd systems for the Black friday sales, then all of sudden they will not sell them any more. It stays out stock on thier site. It really mean we perfer to sell intel only we only have amd to get people to look at us.
Furen - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Power supplies are rated on their output current, not their input current. If you are measuring the power draw at the plug (before the power supply) then your power draw will be quite a bit higher than what the system is actually drawing (Seasonics achieve ~85% efficiency and I doubt these PSUs are comparable to those).I would guess the efficiency of that PSU is around 80% TOPS (that's a great efficiency, since most PSUs out there struggle to hit even 75%) which would mean that your power draw is actually ~180W using a 7800GTX (225 * 0.8), which means that you should have quite a bit of juice still left (if the PSU can actually achieve a 210 or so on the 12v rail, having 70W or so on the 5v line doesn't really help).
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
That's true, but wall power is a lot easier to measure. :-)PrinceGaz - Friday, December 16, 2005 - link
I think he's referring to this bit you wrote:"... but even in the worst-case scenario (i.e. using a 7800 GTX), power draw never reached above 225 Watts. You would still have enough room to add a second hard drive, assuming that the power supply can sustain 250 Watts."
That situation when the INPUT power was 225 watts most probably meant that the OUTPUT power from the PSU was likely to be no more than 180 watts. That is a full 70 watts under the 250 watts the PSU is rated at, whereas you suggest there was only 25 watts to spare. But a very good review overall, Jarred.
JarredWalton - Monday, December 19, 2005 - link
I understand, though I would never want to actually reach the point where I was running a PSU at maximum output power. I personally like to think of the input power as a buffer: if your input Watts exceed the rating of a PSU, you're treading on dangerous ground (IMO).Cygni - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Im loving the variety of reviews coming out of anandtech recently. When there isnt much new stuff coming out (like right now), its great to have something from a totally different angle to read and chew on, like this review. The addition of the add on graphics board and 6150 comparison system was a great touch, and really helped me think about my needs for my next box.All in all, some may not enjoy this article because it isnt a 500 card 7800GTX reference design roundup (which nobody reading can afford anyway), but i certainly think it was a good touch... if for nothing else than "Hey, lets look how an upper-mid level system from a builder performs versus a homebuilt" or "Lets look at true integrated graphics performance."
Sunrise089 - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
...but this article has given me more info about graphics performance than many recent video card write-ups here. You actually tested at a variety of setttings and on hardware that didn't incllde an FX-57. I know the cards may be CPU limited, but so what. I now know that I can build someone an office computer and tell them that if they add a $100 6600 they can play some pretty nice games at 60+ FPS at decent quality, something the FX-57 with all settings on 'high' articles wouldn't tell me. Please keep this trend up, and feel free to work in the other direction as well - higher levels of AA and AF and Image Quality tests.Sunrise089 - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Jarred - You and Anand continue to be my favorite writers here at AT. I really like the intro to this article, especially the background you provide. By letting us know your out-of-AT existance it makes it easier to understand why you are reviewing this particular part and how it is not an example of AT "selling out". I think this is a great example of how the internet era allows a much closer relationship between the content providers (you editors and writers) and the users (us) that can help us identify with your perspective on hardware. I strongly support this type of intro for the other writers here - let us know who you are and what you do, so we can view your opinions in the framework of your actual life.JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Thanks, Sunrise! :)I do my best to keep the readers happy. The extra benchmarks on this are really somewhat extraneous to the actual review, but I hope a lot of people found the numbers useful.
kilkennycat - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Jarred, I suggest correcting the last paragraph ASAP.Why AMD decided in their (er) wisdom to use the same base number for the 2 different parts beats me.
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
I have a direct from an HP representative that the linked SKU is in fact an X2 3800+. Here is a direct quote from the e-mail I received:"We actually have an X2 3800+ Smart Buy, sku # pz635ua#aba....it might be
listed incorrectly as a 3800+, but it's an X2. I'm in the process of
getting that fixed."
Obviously, that needs to be corrected, but for now I'll trust the management of the small-business division. :-)
Furen - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
AMD did not want to release an X2 3800+, if you remember. People bitched and moaned about the X2s being expensive so the 3800+ was released.Paratus - Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - link
We've got HPs at work and I'm generally happy with it for a work computer. The LCDs are fine the chip was a P43.2 which was a nice step up from a 2.2 P4. Only main issues was the lack of dual channel ram (512mb only)phaxmohdem - Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - link
Yeah, unfortunatly for some reason, corporate buyers seem to think that RAM is the least of their worries when purchasing. Faster CPU's and stuff are nice, but if you don't give it the memory to play with whats the point? A PIII 1GHz machine with 1GB of ram is still hella fast for any standard white-shirt business task.I simply don't understand it, its a relatively inexpensive upgrade but businesses just don't go for it. Whatever, I'm sure they have a good reason.
gibhunter - Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - link
That's not an X2 3800+. It's the standard 2.4GHZ 3800+ single core.Regarding these HPs, I have a few of these at work. They are realy great. For $500 and change you get an Athlon 64, 512MB of ram and a WinXP Pro. Try and put a system like that yourself and you'll spend just as much or more and that's not counting the snazzy keyboard and mouse that comes with that system. It really is a good deal.
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Just to reiterate, the linked 3800+ is indeed an X2:"We actually have an X2 3800+ Smart Buy, sku # pz635ua#aba....it might be
listed incorrectly as a 3800+, but it's an X2. I'm in the process of
getting that fixed."
That's from an HP representative, one of the marketing managers of the small-business division.
Googer - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Equally impressive for the $500-ish range is this http://e4me.com/products/products.html?prod=eMachi...">e-machineLoneWolf15 - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
If you're a business, e-Machines isn't equally impressive. Part of what you are paying for is the support. The system reviewed carries a three-year warranty (par for the course on business systems) and probably carries business-level support too. Most HP systems also use a fair number of brand-name parts (i.e., ASUS mainboards in most systems). I don't deny that eMachines has its place, but it comes nowhere near something that HP puts out.P.S. While I like most of HP's system configurations, even home ones, I haven't heard good things about home-level support. And one other thing, Jared...why does the article say this system has a Clawhammer core CPU? I thought Clawhammers went the way of the dinosaur on Socket 939 long ago. Anything this new ought to have a Venice or San Diego core chip in it.
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 15, 2005 - link
Well, it does have a ClawHammer -- at least the system I have does. You have to remember that AMD only has one fab producing 90 nm parts, and they have an old fab that still produces 130 nm parts. Perhaps AMD gives them a better deal on the older chips? Or perhaps it's just that this model was made a little while ago? If it had used a San Diego core, I expect power draw would have dropped another 20 W at least.mino - Saturday, December 17, 2005 - link
You are wrong on this. AMD publicly stated sometime in the Q2 that they have converted all of their lines onto 90nm production.Also AMD does have only one fab - FAB30 - currently in producing CPU's. While there is FAB25 it produces flash and is part of Spansion division and there is also FAB35(or 36?) in qualification process the only fab producing AMD CPU's in volume is currently FAB30 on 200mm wafers.
JarredWalton - Friday, December 23, 2005 - link
Hmm... obviously I'm not paying close enough attention to AMD's fabs. I could have sworn they still had a 130nm fab making CPUs. I would have thought 130nm would be sufficient for a lot of stuff - better to keep what you have running instead of retrofitting old fabs, right? Then again, new fabs are getting more and more expensive.mino - Sunday, January 1, 2006 - link
Well, Austin FAB25 was not suitable nor meant for smaller than 180nm process (for logic products). AMD thus made a cash cow out of it during hard AthlonXP times. Also the capacity of any FAB is measured in wafers/time not chips pre time. In other words AMD could make twice as many K8 CPU's on 90nm than on 130nm. Couple that with huge capacity constraints AMD faced in 2005 and fact they had only one 200mm FAB and it becomes clear why not to produce on 130nm. Around this time FAB35 should come online so the tight supply of the last quarter should not repeat for some time. Also AMD's 90nm SOI process is pretty good so don't expect FAB30 phase-out anytime soon(90nm is last logic process for FAB30). Shame FAB35 wasn't online in 2005, Intel would've had a way hotter year than it had.