" The lack of memory expanability with the Mac Pro may prove a wedge issue, but we'll see how things go"
Would you be happy with 384GB? My guess is that, just like six months after the M1 Pro/Max announcements, we got an unexpected Ultra announcement, so in six months or so we will get an "Extreme" 4-chiplet announcement. It's always impossible to predict the timing (maybe we'll get extreme with the M3 series) but I think that's the next step for this Mac Pro. The other announcement I expect at some point (maybe as part of the release of next macOS) is that there is CXL memory support, giving another path to larger memory. Well, we'll see!
I'm guessing there's already a strategy in place for how to get to say a $2000 "Apple Vision" (and later a $1500 "Apple Vision SE", but they want only rich people with a particular goal to buy this first version. (Maybe because they don't yet know what HW they can remove? Maybe because they expect the next two versions to change rapidly and want to minimize the number of people pissed that what they got is so much less than what 2026 delivers?)
I keep waiting to see if Apple will ever allow personal hardware expansion and upgrades between their laptops, smart phones, and tablets (around memory specifically, with MicroSD cards in the latter two). Like Android and PC hardware. Nope, you'll get nothing and like it. Want more memory in the future, then you upgrade your device and you pay OUR price for it!
I swear Apple's proprietary non-upgrade hardware is one of the largest contributors to tech waste sitting in landfills.
"Small IT" which includes all computers and phones, only accounts for about 7% of all eWaste. Of those, I'd wager that cheaper, more disposable CE are produced in higher amounts and used a lot less than the average Apple device. Anecdotally, I'd say that the people I know with an Apple laptop use them from 5–10 years, whereas those with Windows laptops are using them for about 1–3 years.
The simple fact is, Apple makes their devices non-upgradable and make the software force them to be obsolete every 3 years (or so) so they can make more money. They ultimately put money ahead of the environment, just like every other electronics manufacturer. So Apple does not deserve any more ire then Microsoft or Samsung, but they still deserve it. It's up to us, the people that buy them and vote, to change things. Business are there to make money and employ us, we need to provide the feedback to change the system.
"I swear Apple's proprietary non-upgrade hardware is one of the largest contributors to tech waste sitting in landfills."
Do you have any hard facts that supports your claim? Not really, hm?
Just be honest: Most people that buy upgradable HW do not upgrade eventually, since HW it is so cheap, that almost nobody does is bothering with upgrades at all, but simply buy the next generation HW.
Expensive, working HW with good software support like Apple stuff does not get thrown away as fast as cheap (and in fact proprietary as well) Android / PC stuff which is probably the largest contributor to tech waste today.
E.g. There is a university studies from around 2020 comparing the lifetime of iOS devices with top of the line Samsung phones and the results has shown that Samsung devices were used a year less than their iOS counterparts (5 vs. 6 years, as far as I can remember). It is likely that the results would be even more in favour of Apple devices when comparing to cheap Chinese products.
And Apple has a recycling program in place - What about your so called "non-proprietary" HW vendors? Does anybody of them do any recycling at all? Or do they simple ship things to the (e-)waste dumps of Africa and Asia?
Don't bother to answer if you are not honest and have facts, please. I don't like to waste time with fanboi reality distortion talk …
My parents and me, all three have xiaomi phones, redmi note 3 pro, redmi note 5 pro and redmi note 7 pro. While the last 2 are still going strong today after 5 and 4 years respectively, the former was retired after 6 years. Each of them costed in range of 120$ to 180$ brand new. I would say that excellent longevity for the price. The redmi note 3 pro was exchanged for redmi note 12 pro max (i know the names are getting stupid) for about 35$ discount. Never bothered to see where it ends up, though it would be foolish for them to simply dump it as e waste.
Its all anecdotal, but I would say that you should not be too quick to dismiss cheap chinese products. I should mention that redmi note 3 pro got screen repair, while redmi note 5 pro got a new speaker due to damage from water exposure. If they were apple products, they would have been exchanged for new ones
This is not about longevity (most eletronics today has logevity far longer than they are used). This is about upgradability and repairability - and how little importance this has - no matter what people like "Nfarce" are claiming.
Just ask yourself (and be honest to yourself):
- If your 5 (4, 3, ..) year old cheap phone gets a cracked display or some other defect: Would you repair it for the sake of the environment? Or would you just buy a new one?
- Would you upgrade storage or CPU or RAM of a cheap desktop system after 6 years of usage? Or just buy a new one?
How does price affect your answers:
- If your device is still excellent in daily usage, get necessary updates and a new replacement devices cost $1000 - would you replace a dying battery for $100? Or buy a new device? - Is the answer the same, if a new devices just costs $250?
…
Thought so … (The cheaper the hardware, the faster things get thrown away instead of being repaired / upgraded. No matter what people like "Nfarce" claim - most people do not repair / upgrade - no matter how upgradedable HW is or how much lifespan is left - they simply throw away and buy new when it comes to consumer electronics, cell phones, computers, …)
That is what fills the waste and is the top export product of every so called "civilized country" and our legacy for future generations: waste.
Apple is a right-to-repair/planned obsolescence/modularity menace. They deserve tons of ire.
...But the non swappable RAM actually makes sense. AMD/Intel will go this way sooner or later, first in mobile and then in consumers desktops, as its potentially faster and saves power.
"Apple is a right-to-repair/planned obsolescence/modularity menace. They deserve tons of ire."
Actually, customers deserve tons of ire. Or how many successful companies do you know who give life long quality (no planed obsolescence) or are repair friendly?
You don't have to be a fan of Apple to see that the problem goes way further then the 'Right to Repair' e.g. the way we use land, sea or third world countries as cheap waste dumps (i.e. the completely distorted prices for waste "production").
Actually, premium priced products are probably better for the environment than cheap ones because the latter normally will get thrown away and replaced more easily (even when they are perfectly usable) than expensive ones (where the incentive to repair is much higher).
Or have you ever met somebody who dumped an expensive, perfectly working Rolex watch? With cheap fashion watches, that happens all the time …
Why would an LGA socket make a Soldered DRAM. It's not gonna work. Plus Apple charges an insane price for that Unified memory design. You cannot mass produce that thing in the level of Intel / AMD volume.
It won't matter, CPUs will just ship with the RAM on package.
What Apple does on the M series is not that expensive. Its not an interposer or anything like is needed for HBM. What makes it kinda expensive is the wider bus, but AMD/Intel already have quad channel APUs in the pipe.
Like it or not, the industry is heading in this direction of appliance computing. With just a small amount of planning, this really isn’t an issue. As others have mentioned, most people that “can” upgrade their PC never do anyway.
The fact that the majority can't even afford a bloody apple device of any sort hasn't entered into your equation says a great deal about your stating premise. Personally my pc is 9 years old, repeatedly, though infrequently, upgraded, my phone is 5 years old, not apple, and is perfectly fine, because it has a microsd slot and storage is the only thing which needs upgrading. I regret the non "user replaceable" battery though.
My MBP is now 12 years old and didn't need to be upgraded. Only the battery is now laking (but since I don't use it as mobile device anymore, that is not a problem). Devided by years of usage, the MPB probable was cheaper than your PC. My Apple Watch & iPhone (both 5 years old) get the latest OS update and work perfectly. I don't need a freaking storage upgrade for anything (which is especially ridiculous in the era of cloud computing, where on-device storage IMHO only matters in some "Pro" use cases - YMMV though).
But that is only anecdotal evidence anyway and a silly way to compare things - in the end, the only thing that matters is what you get out of the device compared to the TCO. In this area, I never have seen a comparable seamless experience compared to what the Apple walled garden provides. And this makes things really easier.
As fare as I can tell, Apple values user experience & use cases way higher than specs or price. And this is a good thing, since in daily life, it is usage that matters - or how much is a cheap device worth, that does not help you but hinders you? If those are not your use cases, then it simply not the right device for you.
Of course, it is you that has to decide how much you are willing to pay for that. It's a free market after all and complaining about price is not its base mechanism …
I'm fine with soldered RAM and storage if you don't charge highway robbery prices for the larger capacities. 8 GB to 16 GB of RAM $200! 256 GB to 512 GB SSD $200! They are smoking crack!
Kinda agree: it is annoying that Apple is always setting minimum specs of their hardware in such position, to push lots of people to pay more $$$ for upgrades you've mentioned. Right now 16GB of RAM & 512 GB SSD in computers, or 128GB in iPhones should be minimum specs for premium quality products Apple sells. It is not some cheap chinese company, which is saving on everything to keep low cost of their products. And these upgrades don't cost much in production - I've read on Anandtech that for example SSD upgrade 256GB to 512GB cost is just couple of $$$.
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John94538 - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
awaiting for the event. excitedname99 - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
" The lack of memory expanability with the Mac Pro may prove a wedge issue, but we'll see how things go"Would you be happy with 384GB? My guess is that, just like six months after the M1 Pro/Max announcements, we got an unexpected Ultra announcement, so in six months or so we will get an "Extreme" 4-chiplet announcement.
It's always impossible to predict the timing (maybe we'll get extreme with the M3 series) but I think that's the next step for this Mac Pro.
The other announcement I expect at some point (maybe as part of the release of next macOS) is that there is CXL memory support, giving another path to larger memory.
Well, we'll see!
brucethemoose - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
> Starts at $3499Thar she blows!
name99 - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
The naming is interesting. The STARTED at Pro...I'm guessing there's already a strategy in place for how to get to say a $2000 "Apple Vision" (and later a $1500 "Apple Vision SE", but they want only rich people with a particular goal to buy this first version. (Maybe because they don't yet know what HW they can remove? Maybe because they expect the next two versions to change rapidly and want to minimize the number of people pissed that what they got is so much less than what 2026 delivers?)
Nfarce - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
I keep waiting to see if Apple will ever allow personal hardware expansion and upgrades between their laptops, smart phones, and tablets (around memory specifically, with MicroSD cards in the latter two). Like Android and PC hardware. Nope, you'll get nothing and like it. Want more memory in the future, then you upgrade your device and you pay OUR price for it!I swear Apple's proprietary non-upgrade hardware is one of the largest contributors to tech waste sitting in landfills.
solipsism - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
"Small IT" which includes all computers and phones, only accounts for about 7% of all eWaste. Of those, I'd wager that cheaper, more disposable CE are produced in higher amounts and used a lot less than the average Apple device. Anecdotally, I'd say that the people I know with an Apple laptop use them from 5–10 years, whereas those with Windows laptops are using them for about 1–3 years.https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-e...
jjjag - Tuesday, June 6, 2023 - link
The simple fact is, Apple makes their devices non-upgradable and make the software force them to be obsolete every 3 years (or so) so they can make more money. They ultimately put money ahead of the environment, just like every other electronics manufacturer. So Apple does not deserve any more ire then Microsoft or Samsung, but they still deserve it. It's up to us, the people that buy them and vote, to change things. Business are there to make money and employ us, we need to provide the feedback to change the system.PixyMisa - Wednesday, June 7, 2023 - link
They have to, because Apple charges twice as much.plsbugmenot - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
"I swear Apple's proprietary non-upgrade hardware is one of the largest contributors to tech waste sitting in landfills."Do you have any hard facts that supports your claim? Not really, hm?
Just be honest: Most people that buy upgradable HW do not upgrade eventually, since HW it is so cheap, that almost nobody does is bothering with upgrades at all, but simply buy the next generation HW.
Expensive, working HW with good software support like Apple stuff does not get thrown away as fast as cheap (and in fact proprietary as well) Android / PC stuff which is probably the largest contributor to tech waste today.
E.g. There is a university studies from around 2020 comparing the lifetime of iOS devices with top of the line Samsung phones and the results has shown that Samsung devices were used a year less than their iOS counterparts (5 vs. 6 years, as far as I can remember). It is likely that the results would be even more in favour of Apple devices when comparing to cheap Chinese products.
And Apple has a recycling program in place - What about your so called "non-proprietary" HW vendors? Does anybody of them do any recycling at all? Or do they simple ship things to the (e-)waste dumps of Africa and Asia?
Don't bother to answer if you are not honest and have facts, please. I don't like to waste time with fanboi reality distortion talk …
leo_sk - Tuesday, June 6, 2023 - link
My parents and me, all three have xiaomi phones, redmi note 3 pro, redmi note 5 pro and redmi note 7 pro. While the last 2 are still going strong today after 5 and 4 years respectively, the former was retired after 6 years. Each of them costed in range of 120$ to 180$ brand new. I would say that excellent longevity for the price. The redmi note 3 pro was exchanged for redmi note 12 pro max (i know the names are getting stupid) for about 35$ discount. Never bothered to see where it ends up, though it would be foolish for them to simply dump it as e waste.Its all anecdotal, but I would say that you should not be too quick to dismiss cheap chinese products. I should mention that redmi note 3 pro got screen repair, while redmi note 5 pro got a new speaker due to damage from water exposure. If they were apple products, they would have been exchanged for new ones
plsbugmenot - Tuesday, June 6, 2023 - link
This is not about longevity (most eletronics today has logevity far longer than they are used).This is about upgradability and repairability - and how little importance this has - no matter what people like "Nfarce" are claiming.
Just ask yourself (and be honest to yourself):
- If your 5 (4, 3, ..) year old cheap phone gets a cracked display or some other defect: Would you repair it for the sake of the environment? Or would you just buy a new one?
- Would you upgrade storage or CPU or RAM of a cheap desktop system after 6 years of usage? Or just buy a new one?
How does price affect your answers:
- If your device is still excellent in daily usage, get necessary updates and a new replacement devices cost $1000 - would you replace a dying battery for $100? Or buy a new device?
- Is the answer the same, if a new devices just costs $250?
…
Thought so …
(The cheaper the hardware, the faster things get thrown away instead of being repaired / upgraded. No matter what people like "Nfarce" claim - most people do not repair / upgrade - no matter how upgradedable HW is or how much lifespan is left - they simply throw away and buy new when it comes to consumer electronics, cell phones, computers, …)
That is what fills the waste and is the top export product of every so called "civilized country" and our legacy for future generations: waste.
maxijazz - Wednesday, June 7, 2023 - link
Xiaomi? Worst privacy offender on market. Caught spying customers 3x in last decade.brucethemoose - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
Apple is a right-to-repair/planned obsolescence/modularity menace. They deserve tons of ire....But the non swappable RAM actually makes sense. AMD/Intel will go this way sooner or later, first in mobile and then in consumers desktops, as its potentially faster and saves power.
plsbugmenot - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
"Apple is a right-to-repair/planned obsolescence/modularity menace. They deserve tons of ire."Actually, customers deserve tons of ire. Or how many successful companies do you know who give life long quality (no planed obsolescence) or are repair friendly?
You don't have to be a fan of Apple to see that the problem goes way further then the 'Right to Repair' e.g. the way we use land, sea or third world countries as cheap waste dumps (i.e. the completely distorted prices for waste "production").
Actually, premium priced products are probably better for the environment than cheap ones because the latter normally will get thrown away and replaced more easily (even when they are perfectly usable) than expensive ones (where the incentive to repair is much higher).
Or have you ever met somebody who dumped an expensive, perfectly working Rolex watch? With cheap fashion watches, that happens all the time …
Silver5urfer - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
Why would an LGA socket make a Soldered DRAM. It's not gonna work. Plus Apple charges an insane price for that Unified memory design. You cannot mass produce that thing in the level of Intel / AMD volume.brucethemoose - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
It won't matter, CPUs will just ship with the RAM on package.What Apple does on the M series is not that expensive. Its not an interposer or anything like is needed for HBM. What makes it kinda expensive is the wider bus, but AMD/Intel already have quad channel APUs in the pipe.
techconc - Monday, June 5, 2023 - link
Like it or not, the industry is heading in this direction of appliance computing. With just a small amount of planning, this really isn’t an issue. As others have mentioned, most people that “can” upgrade their PC never do anyway.Whiteknight2020 - Tuesday, June 6, 2023 - link
The fact that the majority can't even afford a bloody apple device of any sort hasn't entered into your equation says a great deal about your stating premise.Personally my pc is 9 years old, repeatedly, though infrequently, upgraded, my phone is 5 years old, not apple, and is perfectly fine, because it has a microsd slot and storage is the only thing which needs upgrading. I regret the non "user replaceable" battery though.
plsbugmenot - Thursday, June 8, 2023 - link
My MBP is now 12 years old and didn't need to be upgraded. Only the battery is now laking (but since I don't use it as mobile device anymore, that is not a problem). Devided by years of usage, the MPB probable was cheaper than your PC. My Apple Watch & iPhone (both 5 years old) get the latest OS update and work perfectly. I don't need a freaking storage upgrade for anything (which is especially ridiculous in the era of cloud computing, where on-device storage IMHO only matters in some "Pro" use cases - YMMV though).But that is only anecdotal evidence anyway and a silly way to compare things - in the end, the only thing that matters is what you get out of the device compared to the TCO. In this area, I never have seen a comparable seamless experience compared to what the Apple walled garden provides. And this makes things really easier.
As fare as I can tell, Apple values user experience & use cases way higher than specs or price. And this is a good thing, since in daily life, it is usage that matters - or how much is a cheap device worth, that does not help you but hinders you? If those are not your use cases, then it simply not the right device for you.
Of course, it is you that has to decide how much you are willing to pay for that. It's a free market after all and complaining about price is not its base mechanism …
Einy0 - Wednesday, June 7, 2023 - link
I'm fine with soldered RAM and storage if you don't charge highway robbery prices for the larger capacities. 8 GB to 16 GB of RAM $200! 256 GB to 512 GB SSD $200! They are smoking crack!max - Thursday, June 8, 2023 - link
Kinda agree: it is annoying that Apple is always setting minimum specs of their hardware in such position, to push lots of people to pay more $$$ for upgrades you've mentioned. Right now 16GB of RAM & 512 GB SSD in computers, or 128GB in iPhones should be minimum specs for premium quality products Apple sells. It is not some cheap chinese company, which is saving on everything to keep low cost of their products. And these upgrades don't cost much in production - I've read on Anandtech that for example SSD upgrade 256GB to 512GB cost is just couple of $$$.