M2 and mobile Raptor Lake are fairly even matched in single threaded performance, with the desktop parts slightly ahead. M2's efficiency is definitely impressive, but performance-wise it certainly doesn't blow Intel out of the water.
oh, but it doesn't straight up blow NUC out of the water? because that $599 mac mini comes with 8GB ram and a slow 256GB SSD. That is anemic in 2022, let alone 2023, and you can't upgrade it, unless you fully replace it. No thanks.
Yes there are concerns about the Mac Mini's paper specs but the slower SSD has zero impact on daily use and is completely unnoticeable outside of benchmarks. I agree 256gb is a bit small for any general use, but if you're running a server or HTPC tasks, I think a Mac Mini is more than well specced for the task. Not to mention M2s are just freaking power efficient. I don't have one, but my M1 Pro Macbook basically maintains its battery level doing office level tasks on an 18W charger. Yes over the course of a long day or so it might lose a few % but that's mostly because there will occasionally be a few power spikes depending on what I'm doing, but it plays YouTube 4K just fine sipping power.
Admitteldy I have an older NUC but it's not like CPU power has exponentially grown or anything on the Intel side, but an i5 Broadwell seems to completely struggle to even have a lag free desktop experience despite wiping it fully.
That small SSD is not replaceable. The OS reads and writes to it all day long, smaller the SSD the lower the lifespan. When it fails, you throw it away.
Most people are not going to wear out their SSDs, especially Mac Mini users. And I do agree 256gb is not a whole lot, but if all you're doing is buying this for a retiree who just surfs the web and watches videos and views photos of their grandkids, a Mac Mini 256gb might be totally enough.
This argument you're making is no different than early SSD concerns. SSDs are a mature product and we've seen even in using lower cost cells, average users are not wearing out QLC NAND either.
Agree. 2TB also would not be enough for anyone who is doing much......so any machine will need external storage anyhow. 8gb seems to be plenty for apple OS and apps. 16gb would tempt me though. The problem I see with these mini PCs is that a laptop doesn't cost much more. I have a very old desktop that I built and have been looking at cheap micro (UCFF?) computers (beehive brand?) and laptops. (been following Anand since he was in high school!)
Don't need nearly as much memory to run apple OS and apps...maybe that's partly why it's faster per watt. Can emulate windows...can Intel/AMD PCs emulate IOS?
NUC are useless. Plastic computers with huge external power supplies yet people are actually trying to defend this shit. There's a reason why PC sales are in the sh***ter. For decades PC fanboys vomited out how much PC they could buy/build for the price we bought our Mac. Now PC aren't even that affordable. I'd rather buy a M2 Mini as well. I got Thunderbolt, easy upgrade to 10G networking. The PC industry is beyond boring right now.
I think it's funny you think PC sales are being eaten up by macs. They're not. The largest market share is from smartphones, and it's primarily Android that has been eating Windows PC market share.
The breakdown of share is basically this 43.9% Android 27.7% Windows 17.1% iOS 6.2% OSX 5.1% Other and Unknown
I don't understand the animosity that exists in the Mac vs non-Mac camps. I have and have used both platforms -- Macs since around 1990 and Windows PCs since around 2002 and continue to use both in my professional career. Each has their place and use cases.
Just because a product doesn't match your world-view, regardless of which platform you prefer, doesn't make the other worthless or useless.
Regardless of which platform ultimately takes the performance crown, M2, M2 Pro, etc or Raptor Lake, there's no denying that the various iterations of Apple Silicon have amazing perf/W which is especially beneficial in laptop form-factors. It's also really nice for quiet, high performance computing in small form factors, whether that's a SFF desktop or a laptop.
That said, there are also advantages to the upgradeability of non-Apple devices. The ability to upgrade RAM or storage down the road, whether due to budget limitations at the original time or purchase, or whether you're taking advantage of lower prices in the future can help REDUCE eWaste by allowing an otherwise adequate machine to continue to be used rather than discarded. It doesn't help Apple's case that in addition to being non-upgradeable they DO charge pretty high prices for upgrading RAM or storage on their machines. +$200 for upgrading from 8GB of RAM to 16GB, or from 256GB of SSD to 512GB is pretty steep (especially since Apple is paying bulk prices) when as an individual you can buy either a 64GB DDR4 3200 SO-DIMM kit or 2TB NVMe SSD for less than $150 at retail.
To directly address the claim that NUCs are useless: These aren't designed for your average home user. That's not to say that an average home user can't or shouldn't buy a NUC. But really, one of the major intended audience is big corporate offices where the NUC can be VESA mounted to the back of a display and the power brick can be stashed away under a desk.
Also, MOST non-Atom/Pentium/Celeron NUCs (including the 13th generation models in this article) have Thunderbolt.
Circling back to what I hope my key takeaway is: Can't we all just agree that we all like tech and that new technology is cool rather than just needing to bash on whoever has a different opinion than us?
Ditto. I use both. In fact I have an iPhone, iPad, Intel i7 custom-built gaming PC, Ryzen 5600G HTPC for media, 8th Gen Dell Latitude work laptop and my old Macbook Air for when I need OSX for something like testing a clients software. I have a Pixel 3 without cellular connection to fly my drone (because frankly the iPad and iPhone suck for this) and use Android and Raspberry Pi's for projects of all kinds. I've considered getting an M2-based laptop as soon as they are financially viable to replace my aging iPad Pro as my kitchen table media toy.
This is the definition of a competitive industry benefiting the consumer and pushing technology forward. EVERYTHING HAS ITS APPLICATION.
Been building PCs since 1999 and do not recall upgrading any. Once they need more RAM the CPU is also too slow. I replaced HD with SSD many years ago before many people had SSD which was huge upgrade. Still using that PC (2.8Ghz AMD Phenom II)!!!
I'm pretty sure this is bait, but I'll bite. NUCs are not useless, because NUCs are real computers. Mac minis are gimmick computers more alike to an iPhone than a desktop computer. If you buy a NUC, you can use it to run or host anything you'd like, between multiple operating systems. Yes it matters to me if hardware is supported by Linux or not. You can also upgrade components using industry standard technologies like M.2, SODIMM, SATA. Apple exists in this strange bubble outside the industry and at every single opportunity they will screw over their customers with crazy pricing, hostile repair practices, and expertly designed price brackets designed to cause distress in customers so they just spend $200 more...$200 more...$100 more. Also, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that PCs are more expensive, as AMD and Intel have caught up to Apple Silicon, and PC manufacturers offer more competitive upgradeable components for a lower cost.
As a M1 Mac mini owner, been there, done that. There is a lot to like about that computer, but a lot more limitations that make it so infuriating. First, Apple starts those machines at $600 but Apple charges a whopping $200 for an extra 8 GB of ram, which is ridiculous. Then you have to pay $200 extra for 512gb of storage instead of 256gb of storage. Apple's flash isn't even particularly fast, and it is soldered. So all those people that would worry about SSD failure, I hope you are comfortable de-soldering flash. (If such a thing is possible.) Another annoyance is the base configuration with the M2 has a very limited display engine on the GPU, which means you only get two monitors, and the built in HDMI port is more problematic than its worth as it constantly limits resolution, refresh rate, HDR, and variable refresh rate. Perhaps worst of all, the Mac mini comes with macOS and there is no choice to change the operating system, even though there has been some progress on reverse engineering, it is not useful. Running a server or something on a Mac mini is simply painful. I suggest that most people avoid the Mac mini even though the marketing seems appealing.
I congratulate you. Your bait caught a lot of them this time. And, like a true troll, you didn't waste keystrokes doing it. Though, admittedly, computer enthusiasts are low hanging fruit that get riled up with minimal work.
I'm pretty pleased that there are P-series chips and not just U-series - as many (but not all) previous SFF NUCs used 15W TDP chips rather than 28W and higher TDP mobile CPUs. As long as the cooler can handle the heat load and isn't too terribly loud (or can have its performance/fan curves adjusted) then this could be a really cool SFF PC.
I currently have a NUC8i7BEH i7-8559U (28W 4c/8t + eDRAM) which I'm not YET looking to upgrade, but this new 13th Gen NUC is the first model that's gotten me excited about a new NUC in this form factor.
I agree. The P-series was a solid move on Intel's part to stay competitive against Ryzen mobile parts. Even though most notebooks don't seem to utilize the TDP Up (if its a thin plastic laptop kiss PL2 goodbye entirely) the single-threaded boost performance is above U-series parts, and general workflow at low-loads benefit from the stronger E-core headroom. Intel competitively prices the P chips against the U chips as well, which is why you see them in cheaper laptops.
The latest U-series to me represent an attempt to have at least a toenail in a fully passive market and that's not an economy niche, even if Intel can put more of them on a wafer: sometimes Intel is strangely insensitive to wasting die area!
And since NUCs have always used active cooling even for their Atom models, U-series SoCs simply have no business there.
I am also a fan of the great NUC fan curves, because they allow you to achieve unobtrusiveness, which is only beaten by "never need cleaning out fans and grills", but not at the price of crippled performance or an Akasa case.
I have the same NUC and it's younger cousins, a hexacore NUC10 and a Tiger Lake NUC11. And that last "custom Apple" SoC with the Iris 655 iGPU in the i7-8559U spends more than half its die area on an iGPU that Intel never charged for, but mostly because it didn't actually pay of in performance.
The Tiger Lake trounces NUC8 and 10 by 25% on scalar peformance while the 6 cores of Gen10 and 4 cores of Gen11 draw even on multicore.
The Tiger Lake's 96EU Xe iGPU puts the Iris 48EU iGPU to shame, which only gets 50% performance increase over an 24EU iGPU from the NUC10 for twice the EUs and without needing the eDRAM, which doesn't help nearly as much as it must have cost in production. It marks the turning point for Apple, which wanted much more GPU power at mobile power budgets.
Yes, you can expect a tempting performance uplift from one of these, should you make the switch. But a gaming engine it won't be, because 4x the speed of a lame duck is still pretty lame.
I like the multitasking benchmarks; don't see that attempted very often as it's not an off-the-shelf test and involves the time and risk of coming up with your own methodology, but it's teased out some interesting results.
I was surprised to see that too. Even 6 months ago I wouldn't be since DDR5 SODIMMs were still elusive unicorns but nowadays they are plentiful and price competitive with DDR4. I've seen 32GB 16x2 kits of Crucial DDR5 5200(?) SODIMMs from B&H for $100 shipped yet nothing mobile seems to take DDR5, and if it does, it's non-upgradable (looking at you XPS 13)
Me too. I was going to write a follow-up comment about that, but then got a bit derailed writing my anti-rant comment.
I suspect that the re-use of DDR4 was a cost saving measure so that they could (mostly) re-use the memory traces, etc from previous NUC boards instead of having to rework that for DDR5.
DDR5 doesn't help all workloads, particularly at JEDEC speeds, but there's definitely some where it helps. Having that little bit of extra performance in this form factor would be appreciated.
In response to all the Mac mini comments. I've wanted to dip my toe into the OSX pond for a while now. I do some moonlighting for a business that uses a lot of Macs, and I feel like more hands on time with a Mac would be useful. The ancient Macbook own gives me some exposure but a lot was changed since OSX 10.6.8 . I just can't bring myself to get a mini with only 8GB or RAM. My Macbook has 4GB and a decent SSD and it is SLOW! I imagine newer versions of OSX are more memory hungry, like everything else. I also WILL NOT pay $200 more for $25 worth of RAM. It is plain insulting! Shame on Apple...
If you're just looking to dabble, you might check out Apple's Refurbished shop. I swear by their shop and use it to help my parents getting inexpensive iDevices as they don't need the latest and greatest.
They tend to sell pretty lightly used machines that are only a generation or two old at decently discounted prices. If you buy a laptop or other mobile device, I believe that all 1st party Apple Refurbished devices get a brand new battery as part of the refurb process.
FWIW, it looks like through the refurb site you can get an M1 Mac Mini with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD for $809. Yes, you lose out on the improvements that the M2 brings, but it saves you almost $200 too.
The M1 is going to be plenty potent compared to your... Core2 Duo(?) based Macbook?
If you can't stomach apple's prices, check out refurbished/lightly used apple gear on backmarket or, for older machines you can upgrade yourself, Ebay. Apple's official refurb store is great but you will never get more than about 15% off there. I love my apple gear, but I only ever buy used/refurb, because I cannot afford the price Apple charges for new.
For how "dead" Anandtech has been in terms of publishing GPU and CPU reviews, I'm surprised we get a NUC update and full review before this is even available for consumers!
My NUC10 seems to just have burned through its Thunderbolt port: for some weeks it's lost the connection to the Sabrent/Aquantia 10Gbit NIC after a couple of days, but power cycling brought it back. Now it's just gone completely, just can't seen anything connected on TB any more.
So while I needed a replacement, NUC12 is still rather expensive and I am still yearning for something Mini-ITX not NUC anyway, I hit across this one: https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2023/03/cpu-inte... which is much cheaper than a comparable NUC of that generation.
So I just decided to order one to see if it holds water. I won't be able to reuse the RAM, but with 64GB at €120 that's no longer a pain point and it is a bit more flexible and expandable than the NUCs, while unfortunately it lacks the TB port, but will allow me to use one of my AQC107 PCIe x4 NIC in storage.
Mini-ITX with one of my Noctuas allows to raise the sustained TDP to 35 Watts without getting annoying, while idle power consumption might not be very different. That's my main beef with desktop based Mini-ITX hardware, I want the lowest idle power and then "comfortable" peak performance without getting distracted by noise, heat or electric bills.
H- and P-class SoCs from AMD and Intel basically allow that, but are hard-to-get in these smaller form factors: high-end notebooks obviously represent the more attractive sales channels and older parts are leak into these Chinese surplus channels only when laptops have switched to the next generation.
IMHO one of the biggest missing elements for several generations now has been lack of ECC support. With both "normal" and inline ECC most likely being included in the silicon, it's really just market segmentation again and a reason to go with Ryzen, if ECC support on their APUs wasn't such a lottery game, too.
64GB is half a billion bits where things can go wrong and I just like the odds less and less...
@abufrejoval: I agree 100%. ECC DRAM is the single most important hardware feature that most people need but don't have a clue about. I curse Intel for segmenting it out of existence, and AMD for not promoting it. May the world wake up...
Anyone know of a small form factor / NUC like computer with ECC support? Intel's NUC 9 Pro / Quartz Canyon from 2019 is the only one that I can readily find.
I'm not sure the price/performance is here for this one vs chips like 6800HX with a much better igpu. That said two thunderbolt ports are very interesting for my use case and would be the best feature.
I see the 96EU Xe doing 5-25% better than the 5800U iGPU and iGPUs typically get Wattage priority over CPUs so a "H" class iGPUs don't do better than "U", no matter if I operate the SoC at 15-28 (AMD) or 15-64 Watt (Tiger Lake NUC).
So the 6800 generational uplift may just put AMD ever so slightly in the lead again, but in a race of sloths vs turtles.
For TB I keep hearing that many of the USB4 ports on AMD APUs are actually TB capable and only lack certifications... Have not had a chance to verify that.
I can't mix AMD and Intel in my clusters, so it's too late for me to switch. But the other thing is that I needed 10Gbit and for that TB sadly was a must, because for some crazy reason vendors believe 1/2.5Gbit is adequate for NVMe systems.
I've wanted mobile SoC based mainboards with PC type flexibilty for years, but only some crazy Chinese companies are selling that.
I can beat that, started with an 80286 (actually with an Apple ][ clone before that) and SCSI fast, wide or dual channel came much later, it was MFM and RLL before, using PIO, because the 8-bit DMA from the original PC simply wasn't fast enough for anything beyond floppy. BTW that system cost me more than a new middle class car would have and the people and shops selling them, would reflect that (suits, ties and talk): Those weren't just another microwave like box at the mall.
Yes, after more than 4 decades the PC era is drawing to a close, but I'm not sure it's from lack of scale at the desktop: it's ARM from above and below that will spell the end of the x86 evolution.
There are way more PC enthusiasts today than there were PC users when we got hooked and custom builds just never scale: IKEA!
To me the real successor of the PC is the smartphone, but only if it isn't actually an Apple or Google remote control.
Some NUC-like mini PCs do ship with a USB-C power connector.
I can't say for certain, but I would guess it's because the manufacturer doesn't want you accidentally plugging in a <60W USB PD power adapter that cannot output 20V. Most of these mini-PCs and laptops use a 19V barrel adapter.
There are also >60W multi-port USB-C power adapters will temporarily power down all ports when it detects a new device was plugged in. It's just really difficult to deal with all possible hardware combinations, and I can see it being more trouble than it's worth. Laptops are more forgiving with power loss, because they have batteries.
They could ship it with a 65W USB-C PD adapter like HP and Dell laptops come with. But I'd rather they kept the barrel plug because wasting one USB C port on power is pretty lame.
Suggestion - The opening paragraph is obviously a copy-paste from previous NUC articles. I get it that writers have a template and just fill in details at this point, but it just sets a tone for the article with regular readers as yet another hollowed out, low effort, assembly line thing that Anandtech used to not do, but seemingly does these days to toss reviews out the door. Variation would be helpful in the canned opener to mitigate some of that.
I have been buying Beelink mini PCs for my company this year and they are phenomenal for dollar value. Cost around 200-300 (depending on sales) and the model I chose for my users are the 16gb, windows 11 pro with AMD Ryzen 7 4700U and 500GB Kingston NVME drives. You really can't beat that price.
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lemurbutton - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
M2 Mini is only $599.00. It pretty much blows any Intel NUC out of the water.Uncached486 - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
M2 and mobile Raptor Lake are fairly even matched in single threaded performance, with the desktop parts slightly ahead. M2's efficiency is definitely impressive, but performance-wise it certainly doesn't blow Intel out of the water.meacupla - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
oh, but it doesn't straight up blow NUC out of the water? because that $599 mac mini comes with 8GB ram and a slow 256GB SSD.That is anemic in 2022, let alone 2023, and you can't upgrade it, unless you fully replace it.
No thanks.
Affectionate-Bed-980 - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Yes there are concerns about the Mac Mini's paper specs but the slower SSD has zero impact on daily use and is completely unnoticeable outside of benchmarks. I agree 256gb is a bit small for any general use, but if you're running a server or HTPC tasks, I think a Mac Mini is more than well specced for the task. Not to mention M2s are just freaking power efficient. I don't have one, but my M1 Pro Macbook basically maintains its battery level doing office level tasks on an 18W charger. Yes over the course of a long day or so it might lose a few % but that's mostly because there will occasionally be a few power spikes depending on what I'm doing, but it plays YouTube 4K just fine sipping power.Admitteldy I have an older NUC but it's not like CPU power has exponentially grown or anything on the Intel side, but an i5 Broadwell seems to completely struggle to even have a lag free desktop experience despite wiping it fully.
Fenturi - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
That small SSD is not replaceable. The OS reads and writes to it all day long, smaller the SSD the lower the lifespan. When it fails, you throw it away.Affectionate-Bed-980 - Friday, March 31, 2023 - link
Most people are not going to wear out their SSDs, especially Mac Mini users. And I do agree 256gb is not a whole lot, but if all you're doing is buying this for a retiree who just surfs the web and watches videos and views photos of their grandkids, a Mac Mini 256gb might be totally enough.Affectionate-Bed-980 - Friday, March 31, 2023 - link
This argument you're making is no different than early SSD concerns. SSDs are a mature product and we've seen even in using lower cost cells, average users are not wearing out QLC NAND either.block2 - Tuesday, April 4, 2023 - link
Agree. 2TB also would not be enough for anyone who is doing much......so any machine will need external storage anyhow. 8gb seems to be plenty for apple OS and apps. 16gb would tempt me though. The problem I see with these mini PCs is that a laptop doesn't cost much more. I have a very old desktop that I built and have been looking at cheap micro (UCFF?) computers (beehive brand?) and laptops.(been following Anand since he was in high school!)
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
To get a 32GB mac mini to match this NUC, you must spend, at minimum, $1700. If you want multi gig ethernet, add another $100.Oh, and you cant upgrade RAM or storage later.
And you can only run mac software
And after 7 years you dont get updates anymore.
Hmmm..............
block2 - Tuesday, April 4, 2023 - link
Don't need nearly as much memory to run apple OS and apps...maybe that's partly why it's faster per watt. Can emulate windows...can Intel/AMD PCs emulate IOS?hmurchison - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
NUC are useless. Plastic computers with huge external power supplies yet people are actually trying to defend this shit. There's a reason why PC sales are in the sh***ter. For decades PC fanboys vomited out how much PC they could buy/build for the price we bought our Mac. Now PC aren't even that affordable. I'd rather buy a M2 Mini as well. I got Thunderbolt, easy upgrade to 10G networking. The PC industry is beyond boring right now.meacupla - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
I think it's funny you think PC sales are being eaten up by macs.They're not.
The largest market share is from smartphones, and it's primarily Android that has been eating Windows PC market share.
The breakdown of share is basically this
43.9% Android
27.7% Windows
17.1% iOS
6.2% OSX
5.1% Other and Unknown
MrCommunistGen - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
I don't understand the animosity that exists in the Mac vs non-Mac camps. I have and have used both platforms -- Macs since around 1990 and Windows PCs since around 2002 and continue to use both in my professional career. Each has their place and use cases.Just because a product doesn't match your world-view, regardless of which platform you prefer, doesn't make the other worthless or useless.
Regardless of which platform ultimately takes the performance crown, M2, M2 Pro, etc or Raptor Lake, there's no denying that the various iterations of Apple Silicon have amazing perf/W which is especially beneficial in laptop form-factors. It's also really nice for quiet, high performance computing in small form factors, whether that's a SFF desktop or a laptop.
That said, there are also advantages to the upgradeability of non-Apple devices. The ability to upgrade RAM or storage down the road, whether due to budget limitations at the original time or purchase, or whether you're taking advantage of lower prices in the future can help REDUCE eWaste by allowing an otherwise adequate machine to continue to be used rather than discarded.
It doesn't help Apple's case that in addition to being non-upgradeable they DO charge pretty high prices for upgrading RAM or storage on their machines. +$200 for upgrading from 8GB of RAM to 16GB, or from 256GB of SSD to 512GB is pretty steep (especially since Apple is paying bulk prices) when as an individual you can buy either a 64GB DDR4 3200 SO-DIMM kit or 2TB NVMe SSD for less than $150 at retail.
To directly address the claim that NUCs are useless:
These aren't designed for your average home user. That's not to say that an average home user can't or shouldn't buy a NUC. But really, one of the major intended audience is big corporate offices where the NUC can be VESA mounted to the back of a display and the power brick can be stashed away under a desk.
Also, MOST non-Atom/Pentium/Celeron NUCs (including the 13th generation models in this article) have Thunderbolt.
Circling back to what I hope my key takeaway is:
Can't we all just agree that we all like tech and that new technology is cool rather than just needing to bash on whoever has a different opinion than us?
Samus - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Ditto. I use both. In fact I have an iPhone, iPad, Intel i7 custom-built gaming PC, Ryzen 5600G HTPC for media, 8th Gen Dell Latitude work laptop and my old Macbook Air for when I need OSX for something like testing a clients software. I have a Pixel 3 without cellular connection to fly my drone (because frankly the iPad and iPhone suck for this) and use Android and Raspberry Pi's for projects of all kinds. I've considered getting an M2-based laptop as soon as they are financially viable to replace my aging iPad Pro as my kitchen table media toy.This is the definition of a competitive industry benefiting the consumer and pushing technology forward. EVERYTHING HAS ITS APPLICATION.
ingwe - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Spot on. I also don't understand the need to be a fanboy of these gigantic companies that care nothing for individuals.I'm perfectly happy to use whatever fits my application.
block2 - Tuesday, April 4, 2023 - link
Been building PCs since 1999 and do not recall upgrading any. Once they need more RAM the CPU is also too slow. I replaced HD with SSD many years ago before many people had SSD which was huge upgrade. Still using that PC (2.8Ghz AMD Phenom II)!!!Pixol22 - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
I'm pretty sure this is bait, but I'll bite. NUCs are not useless, because NUCs are real computers. Mac minis are gimmick computers more alike to an iPhone than a desktop computer. If you buy a NUC, you can use it to run or host anything you'd like, between multiple operating systems. Yes it matters to me if hardware is supported by Linux or not. You can also upgrade components using industry standard technologies like M.2, SODIMM, SATA. Apple exists in this strange bubble outside the industry and at every single opportunity they will screw over their customers with crazy pricing, hostile repair practices, and expertly designed price brackets designed to cause distress in customers so they just spend $200 more...$200 more...$100 more. Also, I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that PCs are more expensive, as AMD and Intel have caught up to Apple Silicon, and PC manufacturers offer more competitive upgradeable components for a lower cost.Pixol22 - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
As a M1 Mac mini owner, been there, done that. There is a lot to like about that computer, but a lot more limitations that make it so infuriating. First, Apple starts those machines at $600 but Apple charges a whopping $200 for an extra 8 GB of ram, which is ridiculous. Then you have to pay $200 extra for 512gb of storage instead of 256gb of storage. Apple's flash isn't even particularly fast, and it is soldered. So all those people that would worry about SSD failure, I hope you are comfortable de-soldering flash. (If such a thing is possible.) Another annoyance is the base configuration with the M2 has a very limited display engine on the GPU, which means you only get two monitors, and the built in HDMI port is more problematic than its worth as it constantly limits resolution, refresh rate, HDR, and variable refresh rate. Perhaps worst of all, the Mac mini comes with macOS and there is no choice to change the operating system, even though there has been some progress on reverse engineering, it is not useful. Running a server or something on a Mac mini is simply painful. I suggest that most people avoid the Mac mini even though the marketing seems appealing.abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
My oranges have 64GB of RAM not 8GB, and 2TB of NVMe not 250GB.And I use 10Gbit networking via TB, because they run containers and VMs as µ-servers, not sure if Apple allows NICs they don't sell.
You can't even get 64GB of RAM from a Mini, while it's €120 including taxes on Intel or AMD.
You fancy 8TB of NVMe next year, no issue swapping the stick, some NUCalikes offer a 2nd slot.
I seriously wouldn't mind an Apple SoC in my Linux systems, but not with the ballast of MacOS or the prices they charge for meaningful configurations.
Fenturi - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Until the SSD runs out. Apple needs to not make systems that can't swap the SSD and RAM, none upgradeability on the SSD is a deal breaker.PeachNCream - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
I congratulate you. Your bait caught a lot of them this time. And, like a true troll, you didn't waste keystrokes doing it. Though, admittedly, computer enthusiasts are low hanging fruit that get riled up with minimal work.MrCommunistGen - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
I'm pretty pleased that there are P-series chips and not just U-series - as many (but not all) previous SFF NUCs used 15W TDP chips rather than 28W and higher TDP mobile CPUs. As long as the cooler can handle the heat load and isn't too terribly loud (or can have its performance/fan curves adjusted) then this could be a really cool SFF PC.I currently have a NUC8i7BEH i7-8559U (28W 4c/8t + eDRAM) which I'm not YET looking to upgrade, but this new 13th Gen NUC is the first model that's gotten me excited about a new NUC in this form factor.
Samus - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
I agree. The P-series was a solid move on Intel's part to stay competitive against Ryzen mobile parts. Even though most notebooks don't seem to utilize the TDP Up (if its a thin plastic laptop kiss PL2 goodbye entirely) the single-threaded boost performance is above U-series parts, and general workflow at low-loads benefit from the stronger E-core headroom. Intel competitively prices the P chips against the U chips as well, which is why you see them in cheaper laptops.abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
The latest U-series to me represent an attempt to have at least a toenail in a fully passive market and that's not an economy niche, even if Intel can put more of them on a wafer: sometimes Intel is strangely insensitive to wasting die area!And since NUCs have always used active cooling even for their Atom models, U-series SoCs simply have no business there.
I am also a fan of the great NUC fan curves, because they allow you to achieve unobtrusiveness, which is only beaten by "never need cleaning out fans and grills", but not at the price of crippled performance or an Akasa case.
I have the same NUC and it's younger cousins, a hexacore NUC10 and a Tiger Lake NUC11. And that last "custom Apple" SoC with the Iris 655 iGPU in the i7-8559U spends more than half its die area on an iGPU that Intel never charged for, but mostly because it didn't actually pay of in performance.
The Tiger Lake trounces NUC8 and 10 by 25% on scalar peformance while the 6 cores of Gen10 and 4 cores of Gen11 draw even on multicore.
The Tiger Lake's 96EU Xe iGPU puts the Iris 48EU iGPU to shame, which only gets 50% performance increase over an 24EU iGPU from the NUC10 for twice the EUs and without needing the eDRAM, which doesn't help nearly as much as it must have cost in production. It marks the turning point for Apple, which wanted much more GPU power at mobile power budgets.
Yes, you can expect a tempting performance uplift from one of these, should you make the switch. But a gaming engine it won't be, because 4x the speed of a lame duck is still pretty lame.
ekon - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
I like the multitasking benchmarks; don't see that attempted very often as it's not an off-the-shelf test and involves the time and risk of coming up with your own methodology, but it's teased out some interesting results.cruiseliu - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
Kinda surprised it's still DDR4.Samus - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
I was surprised to see that too. Even 6 months ago I wouldn't be since DDR5 SODIMMs were still elusive unicorns but nowadays they are plentiful and price competitive with DDR4. I've seen 32GB 16x2 kits of Crucial DDR5 5200(?) SODIMMs from B&H for $100 shipped yet nothing mobile seems to take DDR5, and if it does, it's non-upgradable (looking at you XPS 13)Fenturi - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
U690 6800hx based with swappable ddr5MrCommunistGen - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Me too. I was going to write a follow-up comment about that, but then got a bit derailed writing my anti-rant comment.I suspect that the re-use of DDR4 was a cost saving measure so that they could (mostly) re-use the memory traces, etc from previous NUC boards instead of having to rework that for DDR5.
DDR5 doesn't help all workloads, particularly at JEDEC speeds, but there's definitely some where it helps. Having that little bit of extra performance in this form factor would be appreciated.
Einy0 - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
In response to all the Mac mini comments. I've wanted to dip my toe into the OSX pond for a while now. I do some moonlighting for a business that uses a lot of Macs, and I feel like more hands on time with a Mac would be useful. The ancient Macbook own gives me some exposure but a lot was changed since OSX 10.6.8 . I just can't bring myself to get a mini with only 8GB or RAM. My Macbook has 4GB and a decent SSD and it is SLOW! I imagine newer versions of OSX are more memory hungry, like everything else. I also WILL NOT pay $200 more for $25 worth of RAM. It is plain insulting! Shame on Apple...MrCommunistGen - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
If you're just looking to dabble, you might check out Apple's Refurbished shop. I swear by their shop and use it to help my parents getting inexpensive iDevices as they don't need the latest and greatest.They tend to sell pretty lightly used machines that are only a generation or two old at decently discounted prices. If you buy a laptop or other mobile device, I believe that all 1st party Apple Refurbished devices get a brand new battery as part of the refurb process.
FWIW, it looks like through the refurb site you can get an M1 Mac Mini with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD for $809. Yes, you lose out on the improvements that the M2 brings, but it saves you almost $200 too.
The M1 is going to be plenty potent compared to your... Core2 Duo(?) based Macbook?
Glaurung - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
If you can't stomach apple's prices, check out refurbished/lightly used apple gear on backmarket or, for older machines you can upgrade yourself, Ebay. Apple's official refurb store is great but you will never get more than about 15% off there. I love my apple gear, but I only ever buy used/refurb, because I cannot afford the price Apple charges for new.Affectionate-Bed-980 - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
For how "dead" Anandtech has been in terms of publishing GPU and CPU reviews, I'm surprised we get a NUC update and full review before this is even available for consumers!abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
My NUC10 seems to just have burned through its Thunderbolt port: for some weeks it's lost the connection to the Sabrent/Aquantia 10Gbit NIC after a couple of days, but power cycling brought it back. Now it's just gone completely, just can't seen anything connected on TB any more.So while I needed a replacement, NUC12 is still rather expensive and I am still yearning for something Mini-ITX not NUC anyway, I hit across this one: https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2023/03/cpu-inte... which is much cheaper than a comparable NUC of that generation.
So I just decided to order one to see if it holds water. I won't be able to reuse the RAM, but with 64GB at €120 that's no longer a pain point and it is a bit more flexible and expandable than the NUCs, while unfortunately it lacks the TB port, but will allow me to use one of my AQC107 PCIe x4 NIC in storage.
Mini-ITX with one of my Noctuas allows to raise the sustained TDP to 35 Watts without getting annoying, while idle power consumption might not be very different. That's my main beef with desktop based Mini-ITX hardware, I want the lowest idle power and then "comfortable" peak performance without getting distracted by noise, heat or electric bills.
H- and P-class SoCs from AMD and Intel basically allow that, but are hard-to-get in these smaller form factors: high-end notebooks obviously represent the more attractive sales channels and older parts are leak into these Chinese surplus channels only when laptops have switched to the next generation.
abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
IMHO one of the biggest missing elements for several generations now has been lack of ECC support. With both "normal" and inline ECC most likely being included in the silicon, it's really just market segmentation again and a reason to go with Ryzen, if ECC support on their APUs wasn't such a lottery game, too.64GB is half a billion bits where things can go wrong and I just like the odds less and less...
Up2Trix - Wednesday, April 19, 2023 - link
@abufrejoval: I agree 100%. ECC DRAM is the single most important hardware feature that most people need but don't have a clue about. I curse Intel for segmenting it out of existence, and AMD for not promoting it. May the world wake up...Anyone know of a small form factor / NUC like computer with ECC support? Intel's NUC 9 Pro / Quartz Canyon from 2019 is the only one that I can readily find.
Fenturi - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
I'm not sure the price/performance is here for this one vs chips like 6800HX with a much better igpu. That said two thunderbolt ports are very interesting for my use case and would be the best feature.abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
I see the 96EU Xe doing 5-25% better than the 5800U iGPU and iGPUs typically get Wattage priority over CPUs so a "H" class iGPUs don't do better than "U", no matter if I operate the SoC at 15-28 (AMD) or 15-64 Watt (Tiger Lake NUC).So the 6800 generational uplift may just put AMD ever so slightly in the lead again, but in a race of sloths vs turtles.
For TB I keep hearing that many of the USB4 ports on AMD APUs are actually TB capable and only lack certifications... Have not had a chance to verify that.
I can't mix AMD and Intel in my clusters, so it's too late for me to switch. But the other thing is that I needed 10Gbit and for that TB sadly was a must, because for some crazy reason vendors believe 1/2.5Gbit is adequate for NVMe systems.
I've wanted mobile SoC based mainboards with PC type flexibilty for years, but only some crazy Chinese companies are selling that.
Fenturi - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Sadly, as someone who has built my own systems going back to 486 CPUs and outrageous fast wide SCSI and a super expensive video card.I think the days of building desktop PC is in it's last days.
Most people are going to only need small nuk sized units that will do most of what they need.
abufrejoval - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
I can beat that, started with an 80286 (actually with an Apple ][ clone before that) and SCSI fast, wide or dual channel came much later, it was MFM and RLL before, using PIO, because the 8-bit DMA from the original PC simply wasn't fast enough for anything beyond floppy. BTW that system cost me more than a new middle class car would have and the people and shops selling them, would reflect that (suits, ties and talk): Those weren't just another microwave like box at the mall.Yes, after more than 4 decades the PC era is drawing to a close, but I'm not sure it's from lack of scale at the desktop: it's ARM from above and below that will spell the end of the x86 evolution.
There are way more PC enthusiasts today than there were PC users when we got hooked and custom builds just never scale: IKEA!
To me the real successor of the PC is the smartphone, but only if it isn't actually an Apple or Google remote control.
heraldo25 - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Why doesn't this type of PC ship with a USB C power adaptor? It would be ideal for travelling.meacupla - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Some NUC-like mini PCs do ship with a USB-C power connector.I can't say for certain, but I would guess it's because the manufacturer doesn't want you accidentally plugging in a <60W USB PD power adapter that cannot output 20V.
Most of these mini-PCs and laptops use a 19V barrel adapter.
There are also >60W multi-port USB-C power adapters will temporarily power down all ports when it detects a new device was plugged in.
It's just really difficult to deal with all possible hardware combinations, and I can see it being more trouble than it's worth.
Laptops are more forgiving with power loss, because they have batteries.
timecop1818 - Sunday, April 2, 2023 - link
They could ship it with a 65W USB-C PD adapter like HP and Dell laptops come with. But I'd rather they kept the barrel plug because wasting one USB C port on power is pretty lame.PeachNCream - Tuesday, March 28, 2023 - link
Suggestion - The opening paragraph is obviously a copy-paste from previous NUC articles. I get it that writers have a template and just fill in details at this point, but it just sets a tone for the article with regular readers as yet another hollowed out, low effort, assembly line thing that Anandtech used to not do, but seemingly does these days to toss reviews out the door. Variation would be helpful in the canned opener to mitigate some of that.Oyeve - Wednesday, March 29, 2023 - link
I have been buying Beelink mini PCs for my company this year and they are phenomenal for dollar value. Cost around 200-300 (depending on sales) and the model I chose for my users are the 16gb, windows 11 pro with AMD Ryzen 7 4700U and 500GB Kingston NVME drives. You really can't beat that price.timecop1818 - Sunday, April 2, 2023 - link
Yeah but then you're stuck with AMD