Only a couple years ago, it was impossible to buy an i3 that wasn't 10th gen. Rocket Lake was only i5 and up. Basically, Intel is saying, if you buy one of our CPUs, don't expect (support for ) it to last more than three years. This means I'll be finding someone else as my source for computers. AMD, ARM Chromebooks/Laptops, whatever I can do just to get actually viable support lifetimes.
What if Intel instead stripped features until they ran as efficiently as Apple silicon? I'm in the market for a high end laptop and the battery life between Intel and Macs is insane, something like 22 hours for a high end MBP vs 5-6 hours for a high end Razer, Asus, MSI, etc.
Instead of stripping out features, Intel needs a complete ground up core to compete with Apple Silicon.
Apple Silicon chips are designed to be low power first, and then scaled up. Intel chips are designed to be high power first, and then scaled down. What was surprising was that Apple was able to create a chip (M1) that sipped power like an iPad chip but produced desktop class performance.
> Intel chips are designed to be high power first, and then scaled down.
You've almost got it. Intel and AMD sell CPUs, not systems. This forces them to care more about perf/area, because area determines cost. And when you want the most performance per area, you design a uArch that clocks higher. We all know power scales poorly with clocks, but these cores depend on high clocks to deliver competitive performance.
Since Apple sells systems, they can do things like tradeoff battery size for CPU area, and they don't need to be so concerned about optimizing margins on the CPU dies, themselves. For Apple, the focus on low-power performance pushes them to design a wider, lower-clocking uArch. They use longer critical paths to squeeze out more performance per cycle, at the expense of limiting top clock speeds.
> Qualcomm’s mobile chips are still much more efficient despite being a supplier
That's because they're mobile-targeted SoCs using mobile-targeted cores. Also, using the ARM ISA helps. That enables them to win on efficiency, but not performance.
We'll see if Nuvia can turn the tables on outright performance. So far, all we've seen from Nuvia is big promises and delays.
It’s not just power. Despite massive market share loss, Intel again doubles down on more market segmentation. Does Apple have 10-15 part numbers? If you want adoption of a feature put it on every part and make it widely available. Intel can’t afford to play these games anymore. Plus this announcement looks like pure desperation to convince businesses not to push to 5 year refresh cycles since Intel offers nothing compelling to go down to 3. Gelsinger may not be able to fix the technology problem right away, but he could definitely get his marketing team and product managers to stop stuff like this. It calls into question whether he is the right guy to run things.
Does Intel do that intentionally, add confusion? Does it benefit them somehow or the other laptop manufacturers like HP, Dell, Lenovo etc to have over a dozen part numbers that are extremely similar?
> If you want adoption of a feature put it on every part and make it widely available.
They need to give business a reason to buy higher-priced SKUs. Not just from themselves, but it also helps their partners maintain market segmentation between consumer and business-oriented products.
Is this an advertorial? It sure reads like one. No data, no stats, no analysis, just text that (for the most part) repeats the Intel marketing line. And at the end of a single-page op-ed: "Intel hasn't unveiled anything we didn't know about vPro or launched any new hardware that users cannot already purchase" ... so why is that a front-page article at AnandTech?
It's actually relevant for corporate/enterprise customers of Intel-powered machines, because it means many of them can now start buying 13th gen. I was surprised when, upon comparing 12th gen and 13th gen CPUs on ark.intel.com, I found the 13th gen devoid of vPro features. I guess that was probably just delayed by software support & validation.
According to this one data point, the 13th gen still lacks support for TME (Total Memory Encryption):
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Performance from a work computer seems basically irrelevant to me, when IT forces runtime checking software like Bitdefender that slows everything, and any Office program takes multiple seconds to open (unlike the instantaneous Office 2003). No one seems to give a shit about things happening instantly, and my time is really expensive.
> when IT forces runtime checking software like Bitdefender that slows everything, > and any Office program takes multiple seconds to open
100% agreed. Corporate IT paranoia has a way of bogging down even the most top-flight hardware. My home PC is much older and yet significantly more responsive.
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KaarlisK - Thursday, March 23, 2023 - link
Only a couple years ago, it was impossible to buy an i3 that wasn't 10th gen. Rocket Lake was only i5 and up.Basically, Intel is saying, if you buy one of our CPUs, don't expect (support for ) it to last more than three years.
This means I'll be finding someone else as my source for computers. AMD, ARM Chromebooks/Laptops, whatever I can do just to get actually viable support lifetimes.
Duwelon - Thursday, March 23, 2023 - link
What if Intel instead stripped features until they ran as efficiently as Apple silicon? I'm in the market for a high end laptop and the battery life between Intel and Macs is insane, something like 22 hours for a high end MBP vs 5-6 hours for a high end Razer, Asus, MSI, etc.lemurbutton - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
Instead of stripping out features, Intel needs a complete ground up core to compete with Apple Silicon.Apple Silicon chips are designed to be low power first, and then scaled up. Intel chips are designed to be high power first, and then scaled down. What was surprising was that Apple was able to create a chip (M1) that sipped power like an iPad chip but produced desktop class performance.
mode_13h - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
> Intel chips are designed to be high power first, and then scaled down.You've almost got it. Intel and AMD sell CPUs, not systems. This forces them to care more about perf/area, because area determines cost. And when you want the most performance per area, you design a uArch that clocks higher. We all know power scales poorly with clocks, but these cores depend on high clocks to deliver competitive performance.
Since Apple sells systems, they can do things like tradeoff battery size for CPU area, and they don't need to be so concerned about optimizing margins on the CPU dies, themselves. For Apple, the focus on low-power performance pushes them to design a wider, lower-clocking uArch. They use longer critical paths to squeeze out more performance per cycle, at the expense of limiting top clock speeds.
lemurbutton - Saturday, March 25, 2023 - link
You almost got some of it.Qualcomm’s mobile chips are still much more efficient despite being a supplier. the existential threat to both Intel and AMD are the Nuvia cores.
mode_13h - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
> Qualcomm’s mobile chips are still much more efficient despite being a supplierThat's because they're mobile-targeted SoCs using mobile-targeted cores. Also, using the ARM ISA helps. That enables them to win on efficiency, but not performance.
We'll see if Nuvia can turn the tables on outright performance. So far, all we've seen from Nuvia is big promises and delays.
lemurbutton - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
Just look at the i7-13850HX. Its standard operating TDP is 55w. 55w is is around 5x the power of the M1/M2 running at max CPU speed.mode_13h - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
In addition to what I said above, Apple gets some power savings from integrating the GPU and having in-package LPDDR5.flgt - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
It’s not just power. Despite massive market share loss, Intel again doubles down on more market segmentation. Does Apple have 10-15 part numbers? If you want adoption of a feature put it on every part and make it widely available. Intel can’t afford to play these games anymore. Plus this announcement looks like pure desperation to convince businesses not to push to 5 year refresh cycles since Intel offers nothing compelling to go down to 3. Gelsinger may not be able to fix the technology problem right away, but he could definitely get his marketing team and product managers to stop stuff like this. It calls into question whether he is the right guy to run things.Duwelon - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
Does Intel do that intentionally, add confusion? Does it benefit them somehow or the other laptop manufacturers like HP, Dell, Lenovo etc to have over a dozen part numbers that are extremely similar?mode_13h - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
> If you want adoption of a feature put it on every part and make it widely available.They need to give business a reason to buy higher-priced SKUs. Not just from themselves, but it also helps their partners maintain market segmentation between consumer and business-oriented products.
ct909 - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
Interesting that the i9-13900KS is not included, despite being their flagship.nandnandnand - Friday, March 24, 2023 - link
It's just a bin for +1-2% more performance, virtually identical to 13900K.I'm more interested in the new *i8*-13900T.
ct909 - Saturday, March 25, 2023 - link
Yes, but the point is that the 13900K is vPro enabled, while the specs for the 13900KS say that it is NOT vPro enabled.Hresna - Saturday, March 25, 2023 - link
Is this like an optional feature set? Enabled where, driver level, or in bios? What’s the actual performance hit to enabling it, I wonder.Carmen00 - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
Is this an advertorial? It sure reads like one. No data, no stats, no analysis, just text that (for the most part) repeats the Intel marketing line. And at the end of a single-page op-ed: "Intel hasn't unveiled anything we didn't know about vPro or launched any new hardware that users cannot already purchase" ... so why is that a front-page article at AnandTech?Weirdest thing I've read here in about a year.
mode_13h - Thursday, March 30, 2023 - link
It was written off a press release, I'm sure.It's actually relevant for corporate/enterprise customers of Intel-powered machines, because it means many of them can now start buying 13th gen. I was surprised when, upon comparing 12th gen and 13th gen CPUs on ark.intel.com, I found the 13th gen devoid of vPro features. I guess that was probably just delayed by software support & validation.
According to this one data point, the 13th gen still lacks support for TME (Total Memory Encryption):
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/compar...
nilesecure - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
NaaS, or Network as a Service, is a cloud-based service model where businesses can outsource their networking infrastructure to a third-party provider. The provider will take care of everything from network architecture design, implementation, and management to maintenance and support. <a href="https://nilesecure.com/enterprise-network/naas/&qu... offers businesses the ability to focus on their core competencies without having to worry about the complexities of managing their own network infrastructure.https://nilesecure.com/enterprise-network/security...
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mode_13h - Thursday, March 30, 2023 - link
Spammernilesecure - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
Learn more about NaaS: https://nilesecure.com/enterprise-network/naas/mode_13h - Thursday, March 30, 2023 - link
SpammerAnnonymousCoward - Monday, March 27, 2023 - link
Performance from a work computer seems basically irrelevant to me, when IT forces runtime checking software like Bitdefender that slows everything, and any Office program takes multiple seconds to open (unlike the instantaneous Office 2003). No one seems to give a shit about things happening instantly, and my time is really expensive.mode_13h - Thursday, March 30, 2023 - link
> when IT forces runtime checking software like Bitdefender that slows everything,> and any Office program takes multiple seconds to open
100% agreed. Corporate IT paranoia has a way of bogging down even the most top-flight hardware. My home PC is much older and yet significantly more responsive.