Is this the latest Ryzen mobile U series? I don't have the AMD coder wheel, so it's always confusing 12CU sounds fantastic for this size USB-C with alt-mode DP sounds great, but I find it annoying that they're both placed on the front. Was there really no possibility of having USB 3.x on the back? It has a 90W power brick on a 28W APU? Does it support PD over its USB-C ports? It really ought to have an optional USB-C PD power input
All in all, not a bad first design to market, but I am hoping other makers offer better port layouts.
Agreed on the desire for USB-C PD power input but chances are low. Industrial views USB-C PD as an anti-feature, rightfully. An end user product would support that ideally.
This is the latest Ryzen mobile U series, but that's because the real 7000 Zen 4 line has not arrived yet. It's Zen 3+, a rebranded 6000 APU.
12CU is misleading because DDR5 can only supply so much bandwidth in a dual-channel configuration (or quad with DDR5, whatever that stupid nomenclature is these days).
I believe the argument being made regarding 12CUs is that the GPU's performance will be limited by sharing system memory bandwidth before fully realizing the performance of all 768 shaders. The implication is that the GPU will be idle or in a wait state while RAM responds to its needs which was a common problem with pretty much every iGPU. DDR5 is faster, but I don't think it fully mitigates the problem compared to having contemporary GDDR dedicated to graphics usage.
Zen 4 is not out in mobile SoC form factors yet. By nature of the fact that it is not out yet, Zen 3+ is still the latest. That is how releases work.
12 CU count is misleading to someone who is trying to go apples-to-apples with CU count against dedicated graphics cards (or even against the 2 CUs present in the Zen 4 desktop package). DDR5 is very much still a bottleneck because the total width of the bus is anemic compared to a DGPU.
Besides -- 2 channels of DDR5 is not notably different bandwidth than the LPDDR5 memory the 6000M series regularly shipped with. We already have evidence it is both excellent and underperforms a dGPU with a similar configuration, the Radeon 6400. Sorry I didn't stick to the AMD party line?
If by "AMD party line" you mean "making any sense whatsoever" or "formatting my sentence so you can understand what I am saying".
IDK why on earth you are bringing up a dGPU, when boxes of this size do not typically have one, the OP was not asking about one, and the whole conversation was on the APU itself. Methinks you are bringing up "12cu" just to be ornery. And frankly, given the performance of the 680m VS the 2cu in zen 4 desktop chips, to say the 12cu would be a massive improvement would be completely true.
We never discussed the RX 6400, nor LPDDR5, and none of it was in the comment. Stop being so cryptic and people wont think you're flat out drunk when posting.
The RX 6400 has the same CU count as the 680M. Keep up. This exact GPU has already shipped with LPDDR5 and now is shipping with DDR5. Keep up. Methinks you have no idea what any of these things mean and shouldn't make an "ornery" reply just to defend your limited understanding.
In general the diff between DDR5 and LPDDR5 is power usage. DDR5 usually comes in with slower clock speeds. LPDDR5 comes in with higher clock speeds (in general) but uses less power. At the end of the day they provide roughly the same performance but LPDDR5 uses slighly less power.
LPDDR5 and DDR5 are completely different technologies. LPDDR5 BGA implementations should still be ahead of DDR5, especially if AMD's DDR5 controller in their Zen 3+ APU is anything like their controller in Zen 4 desktop.
CU (GPU computational unit) and DDR5 (memory) work together through the chipset. I am pretty sure a 12CU GPU cannot over saturate the memory so I am not sure what this person is saying. Maybe they can repost and explain.
Compatibility. USB 2.0 is more compatible with 1.0 and both are more compatible with a variety of older tools used in industrial environments. A native USB 2.0 port also can have much better (nearly real-time) timing for some applications.
The real question is whether or not this is native or it's still branching off the AMD chipset (which would negate the second half of advantages).
You do know that every USB3.0 A port *is* a USB 2.0 port and a USB3.0 port, right? They're completely compatable with all USB2.0 devices just like a port that would be missing the USB3.0 contacts and only have USB2.0 pins.
How so? If it has the USB2.0 pins and connects to the USB2.0 pins of the USB3.0 socket, it'll end up on a legacy USB2.0 bus like it always did. Nothing has changed.
@nandnandnand this is an industrial product. When? All the time. The more sensitive and expensive the USB 2.0 equipment, the more reason to demand USB 2.0
@dwillmore USB 3.0 is a massive overhaul from USB 2.0 and operates very differently. 2.0 support is very compatible for simple, consumer products. While the primary use case for USB 2.0 on this device would be more specific, I can tell you that there are legacy, bizarre printers that require USB 2.0 because they somehow require its timings. Oftentimes this is through frustrating relics like a tunneled serial connection.
You're full of it. Plug a USB 2.0 cable into a USB3.0 jack and it only contacts the USB2.0 signals. The USB 2.0 part of the port is a completely separate bus than the 3.0 and it's completely just a USB2.0 bus. Just like it always has been. Nothing has changed on the USB 2.0 front. It's litterally the exact same hardware as it always was.
A simple router doesn't require this kind of CPU power, even for 2.5Gbit Ethernet.
If you want a full deep-inspection, content filtering firewall like pfSense, the main issue is NIC driver support.
Realtek chips were badly supported on BSD for a long time and the pfSense team basically told you to use Intel.
But 2.5 Gbit Intel chips have come late and rather buggy, I've had lots of issues with drivers on older Linux kernels used by XenServer and EL7: I doubt it's any better on BSD as the hardware simply seems incompatible. Intel 2.5 onboard NIC even refuse to work with Windows server editions, unless you tweak the *.INF files to beat the drivers into submission.
If RealTek is ok (or no longer an issue) with your router/firewall OS/appliance, they have USB3 based 2.5GB NICs which are cheap, low power and very easy to add, as long as you have free USB3 ports and run a modern Linux or Windows. And they are just as fast as any onboard 2.5 port with negligible CPU overhead as far as I could tell.
I use lots of them to upgrade Atoms from Gbit to 2.5 Gbit, and they are even less problematic than some onboard NICs, which failed to properly re-initialize on reboots.
But honestly with this type of power 10Gbit (or even 5Gbit) would be a better match, you could even use a single one via USB4/TB3 if you have a VLAN trunk mode capable switch to separate the network zones properly.
But if the USB4 ports are truly TB3 compatible, you can get dual 10Gbit via Aquantia TB-NICs, which have great Linux and Windows support. No idea on BSD...
If indeed the USB4 ports were capable of running my TB3 based 10Gbit (actually NBase-T) NICs, AMD NUCs would finally qualify for what I am doing with them (RHV/oVirt). Even more so if ECC was possible, which unfortunately saw Intel-type hardware segmentation on the APUs.
DDR5 SO-DIMM ECC still carries a 100% extortion uptick, but for normal DIMMs that has recently changed already, so I am as optimistic as I can be.
Another critical element is the ability to play with the TDP and fan settings to ensure the noise levels remain acceptable. Even better would be an ever so slightly larger chassis option with a compentent Noctua fan. Akasa is too extreme in terms of cost and size for me when another centimeter in height and even an extra €100 for Noctua could do the job even at 35 Watts sustained.
It gets them WIFI-6E. That can be a good thing if your AP also supports that and you don't happen to hold a piece of paper between the two.
I am pretty sure it's mostly because orders for Intel chips intended to go on non-Intel NUCs tend to get bumped backwards in delivery or upwards in price. Nice to have them socketed so you have a choice perhaps later.
On paper the 7735U represents the pinnacle of NUC development at this time. Although I do not see any benchmarks, I am fairly confident the GHz/watt is the best you can get. I am also intrigued by the new onboard GPU. I am wary of the change of the WiFi chip. And also wary of how well DDR5 memory will perform. Hopefully the cooling fan performs better than past models in terms of noise.
One other mention is the connectivity. Yes, we still have some USB2 connections. But the others are outstanding and my past model has no issues with external NVME M.2 storage running at 2-3 GBps.
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lmcd - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
That polished plastic is hideous but otherwise this is exactly what I've wanted out of this series.NextGen_Gamer - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
It's honestly enough to make me not want it haha. Like truly hideousMakaveli - Saturday, February 11, 2023 - link
Serious I would pay extra for an aluminum chassisNextGen_Gamer - Monday, February 13, 2023 - link
100% would as well[email protected] - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
Did you want the fan noise? Did you want the change from Intel WIFI/BT to Mediatek?lmcd - Tuesday, February 21, 2023 - link
Don't care about the wireless chipset choice. Fan noise is also whatever.[email protected] - Saturday, February 25, 2023 - link
Ditto. Wireless chipset choice not an issue. Fan noise and cooling could be better. I accept it. Just put the 7735U out on the market!meacupla - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
Is this the latest Ryzen mobile U series? I don't have the AMD coder wheel, so it's always confusing12CU sounds fantastic for this size
USB-C with alt-mode DP sounds great, but I find it annoying that they're both placed on the front.
Was there really no possibility of having USB 3.x on the back?
It has a 90W power brick on a 28W APU? Does it support PD over its USB-C ports?
It really ought to have an optional USB-C PD power input
All in all, not a bad first design to market, but I am hoping other makers offer better port layouts.
lmcd - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
Agreed on the desire for USB-C PD power input but chances are low. Industrial views USB-C PD as an anti-feature, rightfully. An end user product would support that ideally.This is the latest Ryzen mobile U series, but that's because the real 7000 Zen 4 line has not arrived yet. It's Zen 3+, a rebranded 6000 APU.
12CU is misleading because DDR5 can only supply so much bandwidth in a dual-channel configuration (or quad with DDR5, whatever that stupid nomenclature is these days).
TheinsanegamerN - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
By "latest U series" he is asking if it is zen 4.CU count has absolutely nothing to do with DDR5 bandwidth, no idea what youre talking about, its not misleading, the silicon has 12 graphical CUS.
HideOut - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
yeah, that guy is clueless. DDR5 helps the CU's with far more memory bandwidth from the old DDR4 days.PeachNCream - Saturday, February 11, 2023 - link
I believe the argument being made regarding 12CUs is that the GPU's performance will be limited by sharing system memory bandwidth before fully realizing the performance of all 768 shaders. The implication is that the GPU will be idle or in a wait state while RAM responds to its needs which was a common problem with pretty much every iGPU. DDR5 is faster, but I don't think it fully mitigates the problem compared to having contemporary GDDR dedicated to graphics usage.lmcd - Monday, February 13, 2023 - link
Zen 4 is not out in mobile SoC form factors yet. By nature of the fact that it is not out yet, Zen 3+ is still the latest. That is how releases work.12 CU count is misleading to someone who is trying to go apples-to-apples with CU count against dedicated graphics cards (or even against the 2 CUs present in the Zen 4 desktop package). DDR5 is very much still a bottleneck because the total width of the bus is anemic compared to a DGPU.
Besides -- 2 channels of DDR5 is not notably different bandwidth than the LPDDR5 memory the 6000M series regularly shipped with. We already have evidence it is both excellent and underperforms a dGPU with a similar configuration, the Radeon 6400. Sorry I didn't stick to the AMD party line?
TheinsanegamerN - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
If by "AMD party line" you mean "making any sense whatsoever" or "formatting my sentence so you can understand what I am saying".IDK why on earth you are bringing up a dGPU, when boxes of this size do not typically have one, the OP was not asking about one, and the whole conversation was on the APU itself. Methinks you are bringing up "12cu" just to be ornery. And frankly, given the performance of the 680m VS the 2cu in zen 4 desktop chips, to say the 12cu would be a massive improvement would be completely true.
We never discussed the RX 6400, nor LPDDR5, and none of it was in the comment. Stop being so cryptic and people wont think you're flat out drunk when posting.
lmcd - Thursday, February 16, 2023 - link
The RX 6400 has the same CU count as the 680M. Keep up.This exact GPU has already shipped with LPDDR5 and now is shipping with DDR5. Keep up.
Methinks you have no idea what any of these things mean and shouldn't make an "ornery" reply just to defend your limited understanding.
[email protected] - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
In general the diff between DDR5 and LPDDR5 is power usage. DDR5 usually comes in with slower clock speeds. LPDDR5 comes in with higher clock speeds (in general) but uses less power. At the end of the day they provide roughly the same performance but LPDDR5 uses slighly less power.[email protected] - Wednesday, February 15, 2023 - link
Self correction - LPDDR5 uses less power. Which may lead to slower performance. Do the DD.lmcd - Thursday, February 16, 2023 - link
LPDDR5 and DDR5 are completely different technologies. LPDDR5 BGA implementations should still be ahead of DDR5, especially if AMD's DDR5 controller in their Zen 3+ APU is anything like their controller in Zen 4 desktop.[email protected] - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
CU (GPU computational unit) and DDR5 (memory) work together through the chipset. I am pretty sure a 12CU GPU cannot over saturate the memory so I am not sure what this person is saying. Maybe they can repost and explain.lmcd - Thursday, February 16, 2023 - link
A 12 CU GPU can easily saturate the bus, without even factoring in the CPU's bandwidth requirements.dwillmore - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
Why ever put USB2.0 ports on a machine these days? Did they run out of 3.0 lanes somehow?lmcd - Friday, February 10, 2023 - link
Compatibility. USB 2.0 is more compatible with 1.0 and both are more compatible with a variety of older tools used in industrial environments. A native USB 2.0 port also can have much better (nearly real-time) timing for some applications.The real question is whether or not this is native or it's still branching off the AMD chipset (which would negate the second half of advantages).
dwillmore - Saturday, February 11, 2023 - link
You do know that every USB3.0 A port *is* a USB 2.0 port and a USB3.0 port, right? They're completely compatable with all USB2.0 devices just like a port that would be missing the USB3.0 contacts and only have USB2.0 pins.anonymous_user - Sunday, February 12, 2023 - link
Yes it does have backwards compatibility but that doesn't mean all devices will work equally well connected to a USB 3.0 port vs USB 2.0.dwillmore - Monday, February 13, 2023 - link
How so? If it has the USB2.0 pins and connects to the USB2.0 pins of the USB3.0 socket, it'll end up on a legacy USB2.0 bus like it always did. Nothing has changed.nandnandnand - Monday, February 13, 2023 - link
@anonymous_user When has this ever been a problem for anyone, ever?lmcd - Thursday, February 16, 2023 - link
@nandnandnand this is an industrial product. When? All the time. The more sensitive and expensive the USB 2.0 equipment, the more reason to demand USB 2.0@dwillmore USB 3.0 is a massive overhaul from USB 2.0 and operates very differently. 2.0 support is very compatible for simple, consumer products. While the primary use case for USB 2.0 on this device would be more specific, I can tell you that there are legacy, bizarre printers that require USB 2.0 because they somehow require its timings. Oftentimes this is through frustrating relics like a tunneled serial connection.
dwillmore - Thursday, February 23, 2023 - link
You're full of it. Plug a USB 2.0 cable into a USB3.0 jack and it only contacts the USB2.0 signals. The USB 2.0 part of the port is a completely separate bus than the 3.0 and it's completely just a USB2.0 bus. Just like it always has been. Nothing has changed on the USB 2.0 front. It's litterally the exact same hardware as it always was.PeachNCream - Saturday, February 11, 2023 - link
Error in the chart - the GPU row is labeled as a second CPU row.anonymous_user - Sunday, February 12, 2023 - link
If this box had two 2.5GB LAN ports, it could've been interesting as a router.abufrejoval - Sunday, February 12, 2023 - link
A simple router doesn't require this kind of CPU power, even for 2.5Gbit Ethernet.If you want a full deep-inspection, content filtering firewall like pfSense, the main issue is NIC driver support.
Realtek chips were badly supported on BSD for a long time and the pfSense team basically told you to use Intel.
But 2.5 Gbit Intel chips have come late and rather buggy, I've had lots of issues with drivers on older Linux kernels used by XenServer and EL7: I doubt it's any better on BSD as the hardware simply seems incompatible. Intel 2.5 onboard NIC even refuse to work with Windows server editions, unless you tweak the *.INF files to beat the drivers into submission.
If RealTek is ok (or no longer an issue) with your router/firewall OS/appliance, they have USB3 based 2.5GB NICs which are cheap, low power and very easy to add, as long as you have free USB3 ports and run a modern Linux or Windows. And they are just as fast as any onboard 2.5 port with negligible CPU overhead as far as I could tell.
I use lots of them to upgrade Atoms from Gbit to 2.5 Gbit, and they are even less problematic than some onboard NICs, which failed to properly re-initialize on reboots.
But honestly with this type of power 10Gbit (or even 5Gbit) would be a better match, you could even use a single one via USB4/TB3 if you have a VLAN trunk mode capable switch to separate the network zones properly.
But if the USB4 ports are truly TB3 compatible, you can get dual 10Gbit via Aquantia TB-NICs, which have great Linux and Windows support. No idea on BSD...
[email protected] - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
Even if it had two 2.5GB LAN ports it would be a waste to use this as a router. Get a PI instead.abufrejoval - Sunday, February 12, 2023 - link
If indeed the USB4 ports were capable of running my TB3 based 10Gbit (actually NBase-T) NICs, AMD NUCs would finally qualify for what I am doing with them (RHV/oVirt). Even more so if ECC was possible, which unfortunately saw Intel-type hardware segmentation on the APUs.DDR5 SO-DIMM ECC still carries a 100% extortion uptick, but for normal DIMMs that has recently changed already, so I am as optimistic as I can be.
Another critical element is the ability to play with the TDP and fan settings to ensure the noise levels remain acceptable. Even better would be an ever so slightly larger chassis option with a compentent Noctua fan. Akasa is too extreme in terms of cost and size for me when another centimeter in height and even an extra €100 for Noctua could do the job even at 35 Watts sustained.
[email protected] - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
Would someone please recommend a test to see what is the max speed all cores hit when running at the same time? Not all chips are created equal.[email protected] - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
Interesting. Older models of the 4x4 used the Intel WiFi and BlueTooth. Now it is MediaTek.Not sure that is a good thing....
abufrejoval - Sunday, February 19, 2023 - link
It gets them WIFI-6E. That can be a good thing if your AP also supports that and you don't happen to hold a piece of paper between the two.I am pretty sure it's mostly because orders for Intel chips intended to go on non-Intel NUCs tend to get bumped backwards in delivery or upwards in price. Nice to have them socketed so you have a choice perhaps later.
[email protected] - Tuesday, February 14, 2023 - link
On paper the 7735U represents the pinnacle of NUC development at this time. Although I do not see any benchmarks, I am fairly confident the GHz/watt is the best you can get. I am also intrigued by the new onboard GPU. I am wary of the change of the WiFi chip. And also wary of how well DDR5 memory will perform. Hopefully the cooling fan performs better than past models in terms of noise.One other mention is the connectivity. Yes, we still have some USB2 connections. But the others are outstanding and my past model has no issues with external NVME M.2 storage running at 2-3 GBps.
[email protected] - Saturday, March 4, 2023 - link
Who is selling this? Has anyone looked at the minisform UM773? $410 for a barebone system.https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-u...
Looks good on paper.
[email protected] - Saturday, March 4, 2023 - link
Oops. Missed the fine print. The UM773 doesnt ship til April 1st.But the $410 price tag looks nice.
emmchild - Friday, March 17, 2023 - link
Any update on the availability?