Oh look, yet another addition to the BILLIONS already on the list of "why I will never buy another Nvidia product and support such a trash, anti-consumer, anti-partner business"! Linus Torvalds said it best. "Nvidia, F**K YOU!".
To be fair, 3dfx faltered from more than just being vertically integrated...
VSA100 didn't scale as well as they had hoped with R&D overbudget, performance and features under-delivered... And wasn't on the market soon enough.
nVidia Geforce 256 was a smash hit for example with TnL.. And they quickly followed that up with the venerable Geforce 2. nVidia was simply iterating faster and more significantly... And ATI was quickly catching up while S3, Rendition, Trident, Matrox, NEC and even Intel with the i740 AGP card faltered or fell behind.
Eventually 3dfx would be bought out by nVidia... ATI would eventually beat nVidia with the Radeon 9700 Pro and got bought out by AMD eventually... And Intel is planning to re-enter the market.
While what you say is correct the actual nail in the coffin was the near vexatious lawsuit Nvidia bought upon 3Dfx at your aforementioned worst possible point which saw 3Dfx collapse as Nvidia had the deeper litigation pockets and 3Dfx simply ran out of money defending it, finally making an agreement with Nvidia to hand over the company as long as the workforce were paid off.
Since then I have not bought a single Nvida product purely for the asshole way they treated 3Dfx (I still have my old Voodoo 5) and, along with many other consumer negative business moves through the years, I am not surprised with this new news regarding how EVGA has been treated.
nVidia's countered a lawsuit started by 3Dfx almost 2 years prior, so it was actually 3Dfx who initially wanted to keep potential competition away by suing. Not to say it did not contribute to 3Dfx' demise.
3dfx died for only one reason--when they bought the STB factory in Mexico where the V3 was manufactured, the company foolishly agreed to absorb whatever debt held the plant as collateral, and it turned out that the STB factory had $512M or so in debt that 3dfx was on the hook to pay. Big money in those days--huge. Illustrates why it's not a good idea for engineers to buy things like factories without top-notch legal help. V3 was a great GPU, ironically--likely the best ever made by 3dfx, imo. But the debt did them in and 3dfx could get no financing. That was all she wrote for 3dfx. nVidia picked up the remnants at a fire sale.
If I remember rightly, another element was that 3dfx cards were pure 3D accelerators---apart from the Voodoo Banshee I believe---and one needed to connect an existing 2D card by way of a cable. The Riva TNT, while slower, was a 2D + 3D card. And of course, the GeForce 256 took the performance to a new level.
"The Riva 128 was actually faster than its competitor Voodoo, but the image quality could be laughably bad in comparison."
That GPU was my first, ordered in a pre-built Dell D333 Pentium II rig back in 1998 before I built my own gaming rigs not long afterward. I don't ever recall crappy image quality playing Quake II, Half Life 1, and a host of other late 1990s games on that build. You must be referring to the earlier period of 1996-1997 when Nvidia drivers were not up to snuff of the card's capabilities.
Then you had a driver problem which later fixed those graphics quality issues as I mentioned (and as hardware reviewers mention in archived reviews from back then). By 1998, the Riva 128 was the quality card. In my first build after that Dell in 1999, I had two Voodoo 2 cards in SLI working alongside the Riva TNT2 main GPU. That rig was a beast for the time and needed, pushing a 1600x1200 CRT monitor (the 4K of its day). I still have all of that ancient hardware in storage totes.
The Riva128 had some well-known geometry issues leading to frequent gaps between polygons. It was called out in the readme files on many games, and I owned several with an option labelled simply "fix for Riva128"
Nvidia FE also uses garbage design. Only 3090Ti fixes the HW engineering spec problems the garbage 3090 Ref uses MSVDD rail which is a poor mechanism to split the power delivery to the GPU.
EVGA cards were too popular so obv came to the light before than 3090.
But it wasn't only EVGA. During the infamous crunch where 3000 series were almost impossible to get. EVGA were the top seller so no surprise they reported more.
Wow.. It doesn't look like you read the same article as me. How is Nvidia greedily increasing profit margins at any cost, including at the expense of partners is a positive thing? It's just dirt... I thought Nvidia was a little better than intel in this regard, but they are way worse.
I am a NVidia, Intel and AMD shareholder too. NVidia will just make up the difference by bringing an overseas partner into the North America marketplace. I hope AMD does the same as Jensen had done. Chinese graphic card Brier? is expanding to EU and then North America. Intel needs to work out the software bugs and launch the rest of their line up before it is obsolete!
"In time, it would be a feather in either AMD or Intel’s cap to line up EVGA as a partner, as they bring a level of sophistication and respect that none of their current AIBs possess."
yeah, sapphire partnership with ATI dates back to their early days. I remember there being sapphire 9700 pro/non-pro models, but I don't remember if there was 8700 or not.
I don’t agree, Sapphire recently had a better reputation than EVGA, they had no 6900 XT with heavy problems and failures, compared to the problems EVGA had with the 3090 in New World and other games. Generally before, Sapphire had a comparable reputation to EVGA, they aren’t much different. The quality of Sapphire in the 2020-2022 gen was better though.
Ryan, you're also wrong on the point of AIB and Consumer Mindshare. That may have been correct in the 90s and early 00s. But things have changed in the past 15 years.
Consumers know more about "Intel" or "Nvidia" then they know about "Dell" or "EVGA". Those corporate giants haven't spent billions collectively over that timeframe, just on marketing, for nothing.
There is little chance that EVGA comes back to the market. This is like what happened to HTC who has been a phone manufacturing partner for eons. They simply faded away, not with a bang/bankruptcy, but a whimper. HTC does and makes close to nothing, just with VR Headsets. EVGA will follow the same route. They won't make any dGPU Cards, they will have a tiny niche selling something else, and fade into obscurity.
If there was ANY chance for EVGA, I think they should have tried to pivot years ago. Back when they had more power to throw around. Maybe a small partnership with RDNA-1 cards, or just be merged into AMD so that their Founder Edition cards aren't utter trash.
This really is the start of the end of an era. PC Gaming had a nice run... but with Mobile Gaming, Consoles, Cloud Streaming, etc etc Consumers are getting stretched for their time and attention, making hard to justify spending thousands of dollars upfront. Especially with the erosion of the middle-class and worse financial climate for most people living in first-world nations.
"Consumers know more about "Intel" or "Nvidia" then they know about "Dell" or "EVGA". Those corporate giants haven't spent billions collectively over that timeframe, just on marketing, for nothing."
I disagree about Dell. I'm willing to bet that even the mainstream non tech savvy consumer has heard about Dell---they're kind of like the Toyota Camry of the PC world. I'd say they're at least as recognized overall as Intel.
I like AMD as much as the next fanboy, but Nvidia GPUs outnumber them more than 9-1. EVGA on top sells like 40%+ of nvidia cards. I don't think going to team red and blue will help EVGA much. For now it looks like they are staying in the sidelines until a successor can figure out what to do.
Nvidia controls 50% of GA final produced goods so if EVGA controlled 40% of the independent products THAT IS A TOTALLY HUGE ANTIYRUST VIOLATION. Thank you for the note. mb
Sad thing is that back in the day, Anandtech would have been one of the sites invited to the "secret meeting" that Gamers Nexus and Jayz went to with the EVGA CEO.
If the stats are accurate, that's an absolutely disgusting behavior Nvidia has. Nobody could blame EVGA when witnessing such disrespect and abuse from Nvidia.
Ps: I never understood why GPUs are not manufactured under the main brand only like CPUs are?
It's not really close to a parallel, but what comes to mind as a difference is that video cards have much more than just a GPU processor, whereas CPU manufacturers rarely make or design the entire MoBo.
GPUs have lots of components other than the main ASIC. It's logical that there are AIBs whose job is to gather and assemble all these components on a circuit board. In a similar concept, Intel and AMD don't sell motherboards despite making the silicon that is the chipset.
Ryan says that "Video card complexity has increased significantly over the years", which is true for the ASICs themselves, but I beg to differ when it comes to the PCBs. When I look at a modern video card I am always shocked by how few components are on the PCB. Nowadays it's just VRMs, memory chips (sometimes not even that if using HBM), and the ASICs themselves. The actual PCBs are tiny, much smaller than the heatsink and are similar in size to 1990s video cards. The circuit boards even for high end video cards used to have tons of other chips like video decoders and 2D accelerators and sometimes audio codecs. Those days are gone and there is less than ever for a AIB vendor to do.
Intel sold their own branded boards in the past up until Sandy Bridge or so. The list is still on their site. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/produc... They got in to ensure QC in the mobo market when 3rd parties were cutting corners, and left once 3rd parties caught up. Part of that is also because selling mobos is low margin. All chip companies still design and internally use reference boards for testing purposes, but most don't think the low margins are worthwhile to sell directly to consumers. https://www.anandtech.com/show/6685/the-end-of-an-...
I think there are different things that a AIB partner would have to do.
While there is less in terms of raw circuits to connect, cooling has become even more important along with quality stable power delivery and delivering the right set of Video out connector ports.
Designing coolers and power delivery for Nvidia's increasingly power hungry GPUs is a huge expense. Add in the super thin margins with Nvidia's secrecy on pricing and you have a situation where every AIB is gambling on profitability every GPU launch.
When were there separate video decoders, 2D accelerators, etc.? Apart from the separate 3D chips, which were on their own cards (early 3DFX, PowerVR), the chips included a 2D engine and later codecs.
I agree with Ryan. The boards were simpler, as all the signaling was slower and a lot less power passed through the boards. There's a lot of heat design that didn't need to happen in early boards.
Wow. I was waiting for Ryan to dive back in with his typical top-notch video card articles. This sure isn't what I expected, or wanted, but very well done. Thank you.
Well-standard industry capitalist practices aside--I guess now AMD users are going to be stuck with the ugliest designs in the industry. Those clown lip 3xxx cards were atrocious.
I mean you might be. Why buy a hideous card when you can buy something that at least isn't an eyesore and performs just as well if not better when it comes to performance and acoustics? EVGA's RTX 3xxx designs were decent but not top of the pack. They weren't the cheapest either.
I could care less what any of the components look like, they're not mechanical, there's nothing to see happening, nothing to look at. You know what would be a lot better than a pane of plastic (or glass now, that's the point they're at. Glass.) on the opposide side-panel of a case? A giant extractor fan. I got a monitor if I want to look at something while I'm using my computer, you know? It's frequently a lot more entertaining than gazing at a bunch of blinky lights highlighting the dust and tar accumulation on a static heap of PCBs in designer hues. Bet you dress up your dog, too.
lol, you nailed it with that monitor snark, pretty well said @Dizoja86: its not nice recommending xanax if you yourself need something :) As he said, I dont understand what [mental] deficit ppl has that are after "aesthetics" of stuff thats almost never seen (and even if you have glass case who cares) , what do they compensate that they need "nice" card? To fill that void in the soul? Also many HW would be cheaper if it wouldnt bring that stupid RGB clownshow bc masses "want" it...my ass...when we get CPUs with RGB lol?
Shame on how things are turning out, in GN piece we can see how Jensen treats AIBs and he wants to make Nvidia like Apple, a big greedy nasty corporation that yanks everyone (PowerVR, GT Technologies, Qcomm - they failed big since now A series relies on all Qcomm tech only). Not to mention how Vertical integration makes Apple the bidder of the products and they do it by giving contracts to cheaper alternatives - BOE display for instance in China was nothing but now ? even LG cannot face their LCD business which is actually rank #1, imagine LG corporation is facing heat due this crooked Apple. And Nvidia got kicked out by Apple as well but now since AMD has not much marketshare vs Nvidia the greed grows on and on.
Nvidia's policies are horrid to consumers too, they ruin their own HW like axing vBIOS modding by blocking firmware by Signature protection since Pascal. Before that Maxwell's GTX 970 3.5GB nonsense. Ampere's Power delivery failures on 3090 with Amazon's game, they purposefully design their products to be like this with a compromise to fail soon. Asking 2X price for 15% perf on 3080 -> 3090 was absurd. They raked profits in GDDR6X purpose built Ampere to mint mining. They killed the MXM program too for the DTR machines which was actually their own standard. On Linux side they provide garbage drivers as well just like Linus Torvalds says "F**k you Nvidia" an actual video exists too proving the malice of this corporation.
Ultimately this means a massive loss of American market consumers looking at sheer volume of EVGA in US and parts of EU, people have to deal with garbage RMA processing from ASUS, MSI, GB which are huge vs EVGA and also bad services and can take the heat from Nvidia.
But EVGA abandoning this big means they really know that new 40 series and up have severely high manufacturing costs and the profit cuts to Nvidia, plus the FE cards direct competition, even if EVGA tried to buy a lot of Ampere and tried more than they can chew ultimately the entire world finance effected by American Inflation at sky high 9-10%, massive Stock Market slump, poor GPU market and mining crash I can see why they want to take an exit. But do note that TiN left EVGA after Z390 series and the company took a long time to make Z590 out, their new 30 series designs had issues in the start with soldering too, they are losing their talent as we speak. Lucido / Kingpin is also leaving them now, I think there's a lot more parameters to this which is why Andrew Han is taking this approach.
The future is looking bleak to be honest and it's just sad. I hope he doesn't sell the IP and Brand and let it lose it's value, but also needs to think about AMD partnership, that may cause 7000 series skip but potential 8000 RDNA4 might help esp with all the experience of EVGA throwing it all away seems waste of ton of human resources, talent and also opportunities too esp offering consumers, us more choices.
Shame on this greedy Ngreedia corporation, Jensen even though he built a massive company but has not much of a moral code I mean this is a corporation but this is a specific market which is built on trust and mutual respect be it your customers / clients / partners. I really hope AMD can bust them and gain some marketshare and kick some sense into them.
I hate to see any regression in PC x86 space it's just bad.
Great commentary, was worth reading! Nvidia was forcing board partners to work with minimal info, they even had to beg the press to obtain gfx drivers.
BOE is not where it is because of Apple though, it took a few right steps at the low end cutting LCD cost and easily grabbed the majority of the Chinese market, where it's easy for them to do business anyway, at the high end it stole some IP from the Koreans and put some pieces together, there was also some help from Beijing, and, maybe supplying *part of* the *lower end* of the Apple lineup made a difference of *some* significance.
It would be interesting to see if AMD can finally catch up and release a modern card with features that match Nvidia's. They've been a generation behind for years now. Not that AMD has any more honour or ethics than Nvidia or Intel, but it's always amusing to watch big shitty corporations giving each other black eyes.
It's a sign of what's a happening: Graphics Card market has plateaued and will start falling down. My RTX3060 holds up just fine, even the laptop variant is decent. Why do I need to drop $400 on a new graphics card, which this 3060 will rock out for years to come? Nvidia is preparing for the worst.
It's only falling down from an artificial high caused by ethereum mining and coronavirus lockdowns. The PCs with GPUs that are actually used for gaming will still continue to upgrade regularly.
So-called "clipping" is a common linguistic feature. Basically, usage tends towards conciseness. If you would say "AIB partner", but you *know* the "partner" bit is coming from the specific context, you can remove it and still be understood - so people will start to do that. Think about "Danish [pastry]", "Cheddar [cheese]" or "Afro [hairdo]". I guess you could also call it a metonym or synecdoche because the company is referred to by the name of the product it is associated with.
Do you buy a lot of high-end GPUs at yard sales and off Craigslist, then? I'm not entirely poking fun, for a while there was a fairly honest market for cannabalising badly-built gaming rigs on places like LetGo, but come on, without even knowing if it runs how much could you afford to spend?
I don’t think what the AIB’s does completely trivial. It’s not just knock out a PCB design and call it a day. They have to manage inventory levels, component lead times, vendor contracts, etc… Also marketing and distribution on the sales end. If NVIDIA gets it sales projections wrong the effects will be greater and they won’t have other companies to screw over with the inventory and costs.
Which would be nice; improve driver integration at Intel or AMD, maybe the solution for EVGA. The race for ever higher frequencies leads us directly to the pollution of drinking water since the air is already saturated, let's go there cheerfully.
I think EVGA hurt themselves early on by only going with one GPU make. They had nowhere to go if the going with nVidia got rough, and that appears to be just what has happened. If 80% of their income was derived from the sale of nVidia GPUs then EVGA must have lost its shirt selling them recently, as that's the only reason they would jump away from nVidia without making arrangements to pick up the slack with something else. Everybody had a tough time during the shortages for a year, but I don't see that being nVidia's fault. It's a falling out with nVidia, though, certainly. Next month, EVGA could announce that it's going with AMD...I think they need to do something!
First things First I have a 6900xt and a 3090 in 2 Machines, never had an EVGA card but have seen they are decent products with good backup. I will not be buying another Nvidia card not because of this, however this action by EVGA only adds to the other issues coming from Nvidia recently, anyone who has studied the recent Financial Day briefing by Jenson will know exactly what I mean when he openly admits to market manipulation and he laments the loss of the last couple of years crazy GPU prices due to mining, the way they seem to treat their partners also speaks volumes of his moral standards and his disregard for others who have helped to grow his company. I predict Nvidia will push other AIBs out of the market and increase its own FE unit sales or make the TI versions exclusive after all why sell a chip for a few hundred when you can sell the whole card for a thousand plus. EVGA needs to partner with AMD and do some ass kicking of its own against Nvidia the EVGA name is a strong case for quality and i do believe haveing access to both current flagships the AMD card will come out on top this time, all Nvidia has at the moment is RTX and the next gen AMD is said to be very strong in ray tracing.
" all Nvidia has at the moment is RTX and the next gen AMD is said to be very strong in ray tracing."
Yeeeahhh....Nvidia only makes GPUs so that's where their R&D goes fully. They do not make processors which also requires R&D funding as AMD does (for not only PCs, but for game consoles). But I always love those comments of "AMD's latest GPU is going to be an Nvidia killer!" Where has that ever happened. Fury X, is that you I hear from the grave? LOL....
Jensen himself recently said something along the lines that he considers AIBs as useless vultures, that’s also how he treats them, despite the good work they did for Nvidia. Hopefully Nvidia loses market share, this kind of behavior should be punished. And glad the ARM deal did not went through, one of the best news of 2021/2022.
I had wondered if nVIDIA was going to 3dfx themselves with regards to AIB partners when they started the Founders Edition program, it took a few years but it seems the answer is at least in part yes.
I agree that you can't blame EVGA for leaving with that trend in margins. It would be fascinating to learn if the situation is similar for other partners. I'd have to imagine it's broadly similar for other nVIDIA-exclusive partners. Probably somewhat similar for AMD partners, though perhaps not to the same degree. We'll probably never know unless other ones leave the market.
On EVGA peripherals, I just bought an EVGA mouse. So far I'm happy with it. But I've only had it about a week...
Remember when sites like this one would round up as many of the various AIBs' versions of a particular GPU as they could get and bench them all against one another? Really stress-test them and report faults even prior to replacement? I bet the AIBs hated that, but I also bet it pushed them to work harder and turn out better, stabler, faster, cooler designs. In turn, I bet NV wasn't crazy either about their reference boards maybe getting trashed by people working harder. But the end-users benefitted. Feels like we're kind of an afterthought anymore, but there's a piece missing in this whole mess, maybe it's us.
The JPR gross margin chat is very misleading. NVIDIA have a big enterprise/data center business (AI, deep learning ...etc) that enjoys significant margins that resulted in their overall company 60+% gross margin. For AIB margin, another reference take a look at HK listed PC Partners (1263.HK), who owns ZOTAC, Inno3D and Manli - also have 80% of revenue from consumer graphics cards. Their latest (interim) 1H2022 finical reports list gross profit at 20.7% and net profit at 12.1% - I think that is representative of AIBs consumer graphics business.
I agree JPR AIB gross margin take is many questions on the industrial management rules of profit maximization at every tier of the supply and sales distribution chain means Jon needs to replaced as Board Association Manager. mb
I'm not sure how many fell for less than profit maximization in the AIB supply chain but at x18 over the price of the GPU alone in 2021 everyone figured it out. Jon u'r fired. mb
Data, situation assessment, questions and I trust some answers.
Nvidia GA FE taper represents 17.4% of GA desktop PCI. Nvidia GA mobile thrusts designed as Intel counter adds 26.6% Nvidia Professional A series adds 6%. Nvidia controls 50% of its supply.
I'm aware 3090ti FE entry price was meant to drag and press down inflated dGPU channel pricing on cartelization of the supply resulting in consumer discriminatory pricing between April 2021 and December 2021 that was up to x18 over the Nvidia price of the GPU component alone to the AIB.
Monopoly price premiums are x9 to x11 over the primary component price to the board house and at x18 is a cartel price. FE tapers were meant to lead price down but apparently interfered in AIB independent cost : price / margin decisions.
Here's a traditional cost : price / margin example industrially speaking on production economic best practice;
Risk production price = cost x2
Ramp if demand constrained usually not = cost x1.75
Peak production doubles volume now cost x1.5 = component price unless there is still a bunch of demand then the price will be held up. AMD and Intel are both basically x1.5 design producers.
Entering supply elastic price through run down = cost x1.25.
And at run end, the very last unit cost = price. This is what EVGA seems to have gotten got caught up in and EVGA walked.
NOTE while AMD and Nvidia RDNA ll and GA MSRPs at launch were fake PR prices, discriminatory to the board house, board houses made money all through 2021 on the basic cost : price / margin 'profit maximization' rule selling into national distribution. No one was losing money with end sales prices reaching x18 over the price of the GPU component itself to the AIB. Retail likely made the most money and that was AMD and Nvidia margin used to pay down the channels Intel inventory loss; cost : price offset.
Here are the AMD and Nvidia fake RDNA ll and Ampere prices
3080 @ $699 3070 @ $499 3060ti @ $399 3060 @ $319
6900XT @ $999 6800XT @ $649 6800 @ $580
Absolutely no way to make money at these suggested prices at x2.54 to x3.59 over the price of the GPU component alone to the AIB. x4 is considered the top end of a competitive profit but that only takes into account an OpEx 'variable cost' value. x5 enters economic profit point that begins to pay against R&D and int CapEx.
So, Nvidia said no or EVGA said no to forms of 'run end' cost : price / margin protection? This can include new product allocation discount to make up for prior losses and/or mobile inclusion and/or private label work or any number of mutually codependent business perks.
Was EVGA not only a board design producer but also Nvidia GPU broker dealer, reselling procurement overage to bring down the total cost of primary procurements? At run end means EVGA might have been caught with GA supply that was underwater in terms of brokerage.
I reported this on August 13 current card profit margin in the channel on sales price and that's all upstream from the sales outlet to the AIB [buffer] and then the component design producer. Notice much greater volumes of mid to bottom shelf is subsidizing top shelf.
3090ti makes 8% over cost 3090 losses 1.8% 3080ti makes 3% 3080 12 losses 13% 3080 10 price = cost 3070ti makes 10.4% 3070 makes 20% 3060ti makes 7.4% 3060 makes 16.2% 3050 makes 12% over cost
6950XT losses 4% over cost 6900XT loses 49% 6800XT losses 7% 6800 loses 14% 6750XT makes 25% 6700XT makes 10% 6650XT males 31% 6600XT makes 22% 6500XT loses 38% 6400 price = cost
Here's the volume to see how mid and bottom shelf on greater inventory volume is subsidizes the top shelf price discounting at retail.
On AD, 4000 series are commercial and B2B cards foremost and AMD and Nvidia have been encouraged to price along a perfect pareto distribution curve, segment by segment application specific perfect pricing (on ROI) to prevent cartelization of supply and the channel running away with AMD and Nvidia margin that should be going to AMD and Nvidia. This method also protects AIBs insuring they also participate in profit maximization.
Here's my take on what AD price will be and if it's not I will quickly know why;
RTX 40x0 cost : price / margin assessment on GA real cost : price / margin on AIB x3 to x6 over their price of GPU itself that was not the fake MSRP.
I will also note x7 over cost of the GPU component itself is also not unreasonable for fully featured highest materials cards. And my down bin 'bottom shelf' here might be a bit low.
For engineers a bottom-up B.O.M assessment can be relied and I did that for TU and after a while just went with production economic multipliers over GPU cost to the AIB because it's an effective method that takes a lot less time. For example x5 would be the basic Intel CPU takes 20% of the PC price rule.
Ball parked but close enough on MC = MR entering AIB x3 to x6 over GPU price. I will know what any difference is and know what is and is not justified.
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ALL pointless and useless fluff, from the KING of Camp Fluff Marketing.
probably mostly made up numbers. with NO links to sources for this, so no one can verify anything, its just BS. also sounds like he is drunk. come on Mike, stop posting this SPAM BS, unless you also post a SOURCE, and NO YOU are not a source.
'"probably" most made up numbers"', Quasar, I see you're beginning to come around, "probably", ,well good for you beginning to see the light!
I offered and even posted formula's so anyone can figure this out on their own. Why aren't you Quasar doing your own assessments then we can have a back and forth on our determinations.
On my primary research the assessment is on channel, primarily ebay data, which you are aware.
On Nvidia AD price announced today 4090 at $1599 is a PR price let's see what the channel and AIBs price at. Ampere run end loss leaders, on GA inventory cost loss, will result in the channel setting premiums for Ada to make up their Ampere and other inventory losses for example Rocket S deadweight is a $4.5 billion industry and channel loss. Tiger U quad mobile also presents a huge surplus situation new inventory sitting on the shelf.
I will note that no one lost on Ampere throughout 2021 where card prices are as much as x18 over the Price of the GPU itself to the AIB. EVGA seems to have been caught holding inventory at run end where under profit maximization price falls to cost affects run end inventory especially if EVGA in addition to card design production is brokering individual GPUs to others as an Nvidia broker dealer.
I'm very close on 4080 between the two variants at an average of $1060 that is $11 more than the MSRP average but the weighted average will be different. One of the two cards 12 or 16 will sell in greater volume. Nvidia AD introduction price suggests NV is taking a 50% mark up over their cost / price from TSMC. I'll address this in greater detail as I have more data.
Some day Quasar please inform all how a primary source, primary research analyst is not the original source of their assessment. The data is channel primarily ebay and the calculations are basic production economic and profit max frameworks.
" ,well good for you beginning to see the light! " nope all i see is a fraud and a fake.
" I offered and even posted formula's so anyone can figure this out on their own. Why aren't you Quasar doing your own assessments"
with what numbers Myke Brazzone ? the fake and made up ones that you pull out of thin air? what would the point of that be ? to prove you fake data is useful ?
" Some day Quasar please inform all how a primary source, primary research analyst is not the original source of their assessment. The data is channel primarily ebay and the calculations are basic production economic and profit max frameworks. "
the day you post links to your sources, will be the primary source, you are NOT a primary source, in any way shape OR form. as i said above, your just a fraud and a fake, who posts BS and fluff. you NEVER post a link to your sources, as there are NONE. every thing you post is BS, hell, a couple of people i have shown your posts to, asked me if you were drunk when you typed them, as some of what you type makes no sense and is just babble.
maybe change your name from, camp marketing to Camp Fluff marketing ? as that is what most of what you post looks to be, Fluff.
Most of the comments don't make sense - Nvidia is both making far too much money and screwing EVGA while undercutting them by selling founders cards cheaper.
Not including professional or mobile, FE cards for GA full run = 17% of total production volume. FE cards for TU full run = 6% which corrects a spreadsheet error earlier today on the PC World show where I stated 1%, whoops but its correct now.
FE cards have increased from TU to GA full run by 183%.
But where Nvidia made big volume gains between TU and GA is in laptop. GA mobile = 26% of Ampere RTX and Max-q in the prior TU generation not including professional = 2.2%.
Honestly, I used to love EVGA. Then, they started overcharging for their cards, and all other vendors starting going crazy with pricing on their cards, and I'm not talking COVID times... I'm talking B.C. (before COVID). I honestly don't think it has anything to do with "OMG, they won't let us do what we wanna do" and "we can't compete"... Utter bull.
Starting way back with the 900 series, if they'd have kept their pricing inline with what nVidia recommended as MSRP instead of almost charging double, then maybe people would have been able to afford their stuff and actually bought their stock. Now, vendors all have a major surplus because no one could afford to buy their overpriced products. I'm sure this had plenty to do with the shuttering of the EVGA Taiwan offices, and now with the "exodus" from nVidia.
Beyond that, there's this: https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/xgn7do/we... It sounds to me like EVGA is just having issues overall. I used to like them... back in the day... these past 6 - 7 years... not so much.
1) Any link from Reddit is immediately flushed down the toilet as a credible point source (why not just thrown in a Tik-Tok link while you are at it).
2) EVGA was NOT the leader in "overcharging" for GPUs (whatever that means). I've been an EVGA buyer since 2009 with the GTX 275/285 series and their prices were in line with other AIB vendors EXCEPT with their premium overclocked SKUs like the current FTW3 series (means binned chips that can take higher factory overclocks).
3) EVGA's revenue margin for GPUs is only 15% even though their GPUs currently comprise 80% of the company's entire sales revenue. That's not a sustainable business model.
EVGA NVidia cards accounts for 80% of EVGA total business! EVGA said they only made a 5% profit margin on each card. So it a breakeven business for them since they were limited from raising price on their models.
Sir, I keep visiting your website and I think your website is very nice, I think your website is the best website in the world and you should publish similar articles in it.
On the one hand I want to say "Good riddance" because I have never bought an EVGA product and highly unlikely that I ever would, but on the other hand a competitor going out of the market has never improved the market for the customers.
Nvidia no longer needs EVGA as much as they used to be. All of the Tesla and enterprise cards are OEM. One of the reason Nvidia has posted fatter profits because they are reaping all of the enterprise sales. All cloud providers are buying their enterprise GPU offerings. While they are still depending on consumer card sales. Eventually they will be offering GPUs to enterprise and cloud.
It is truly sad to see such a partnership ended in such a poor way. This reflects negatively on Nvidia for me and I can't support such aggressive behaviors being pushed on EVGA. I personally had many EVGA graphics cards and they served me well. Hopefully EVGA returns with a vengeance with something never before seen.
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Cooe - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
Oh look, yet another addition to the BILLIONS already on the list of "why I will never buy another Nvidia product and support such a trash, anti-consumer, anti-partner business"! Linus Torvalds said it best. "Nvidia, F**K YOU!".lemurbutton - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
Nvidia reference cards are already significantly better than EVGA.Having vertical integration will cut out the middleman such as EVGA. This is good.
Qasar - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
" Having vertical integration will cut out the middleman such as EVGA"thats what 3DFX thought too, and look what happened to them.
StevoLincolnite - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
To be fair, 3dfx faltered from more than just being vertically integrated...VSA100 didn't scale as well as they had hoped with R&D overbudget, performance and features under-delivered... And wasn't on the market soon enough.
nVidia Geforce 256 was a smash hit for example with TnL.. And they quickly followed that up with the venerable Geforce 2.
nVidia was simply iterating faster and more significantly... And ATI was quickly catching up while S3, Rendition, Trident, Matrox, NEC and even Intel with the i740 AGP card faltered or fell behind.
Eventually 3dfx would be bought out by nVidia... ATI would eventually beat nVidia with the Radeon 9700 Pro and got bought out by AMD eventually...
And Intel is planning to re-enter the market.
The GPU race has been... Odd.
MadAd - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
While what you say is correct the actual nail in the coffin was the near vexatious lawsuit Nvidia bought upon 3Dfx at your aforementioned worst possible point which saw 3Dfx collapse as Nvidia had the deeper litigation pockets and 3Dfx simply ran out of money defending it, finally making an agreement with Nvidia to hand over the company as long as the workforce were paid off.Since then I have not bought a single Nvida product purely for the asshole way they treated 3Dfx (I still have my old Voodoo 5) and, along with many other consumer negative business moves through the years, I am not surprised with this new news regarding how EVGA has been treated.
Traxus0 - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
nVidia's countered a lawsuit started by 3Dfx almost 2 years prior, so it was actually 3Dfx who initially wanted to keep potential competition away by suing. Not to say it did not contribute to 3Dfx' demise.WaltC - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
3dfx died for only one reason--when they bought the STB factory in Mexico where the V3 was manufactured, the company foolishly agreed to absorb whatever debt held the plant as collateral, and it turned out that the STB factory had $512M or so in debt that 3dfx was on the hook to pay. Big money in those days--huge. Illustrates why it's not a good idea for engineers to buy things like factories without top-notch legal help. V3 was a great GPU, ironically--likely the best ever made by 3dfx, imo. But the debt did them in and 3dfx could get no financing. That was all she wrote for 3dfx. nVidia picked up the remnants at a fire sale.Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
interesting. mbblppt - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
I still miss the "it just works, the way its supposed to" way that Glide made gaming on PCs back then.Still, I doubt even if 3dfx hadn't died whether Glide would still be around. They were already falling behind some of the fancy new DirectX features.
Zoomer - Saturday, October 8, 2022 - link
And nVidia took over 3dfx and its liabilities as well. They could've just bought assets.GeoffreyA - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
If I remember rightly, another element was that 3dfx cards were pure 3D accelerators---apart from the Voodoo Banshee I believe---and one needed to connect an existing 2D card by way of a cable. The Riva TNT, while slower, was a 2D + 3D card. And of course, the GeForce 256 took the performance to a new level.Zagor Te Nay - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
I think only Voodoo 1 and 2? Banshee was their first complete GPU, but others that followed were, too. I had Voodoo3 2000, it was full GPU.GeoffreyA - Thursday, September 22, 2022 - link
I believe you're right, and those were possibly based on the Banshee.blppt - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
The Riva 128 was actually faster than its competitor Voodoo, but the image quality could be laughably bad in comparison.Nfarce - Thursday, September 22, 2022 - link
"The Riva 128 was actually faster than its competitor Voodoo, but the image quality could be laughably bad in comparison."That GPU was my first, ordered in a pre-built Dell D333 Pentium II rig back in 1998 before I built my own gaming rigs not long afterward. I don't ever recall crappy image quality playing Quake II, Half Life 1, and a host of other late 1990s games on that build. You must be referring to the earlier period of 1996-1997 when Nvidia drivers were not up to snuff of the card's capabilities.
blppt - Thursday, September 22, 2022 - link
I remember often distractingly bad image quality compared with the 3dfx card I also had at the time. I had it on a custom shop built 440LX/P2-300.Nfarce - Sunday, September 25, 2022 - link
Then you had a driver problem which later fixed those graphics quality issues as I mentioned (and as hardware reviewers mention in archived reviews from back then). By 1998, the Riva 128 was the quality card. In my first build after that Dell in 1999, I had two Voodoo 2 cards in SLI working alongside the Riva TNT2 main GPU. That rig was a beast for the time and needed, pushing a 1600x1200 CRT monitor (the 4K of its day). I still have all of that ancient hardware in storage totes.Lord of the Bored - Sunday, September 25, 2022 - link
The Riva128 had some well-known geometry issues leading to frequent gaps between polygons. It was called out in the readme files on many games, and I owned several with an option labelled simply "fix for Riva128"Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
entering a massive growth cycle. mbtamalero - Wednesday, September 21, 2022 - link
According to WHO?Almost all these cards have lower specs, slower. Only pretty is the "design" and most of the times they have issues cooling as reported.
meacupla - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
you are so wrong on this, it is hilarious. EVGA made some of the best custom PCBs for GPUs, although they had a few lemons.TheinsanegamerN - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
Those 3080s and 3090s that blew their circuits playing new world were surely the highest quality boards!Silver5urfer - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
Nvidia FE also uses garbage design. Only 3090Ti fixes the HW engineering spec problems the garbage 3090 Ref uses MSVDD rail which is a poor mechanism to split the power delivery to the GPU.EVGA cards were too popular so obv came to the light before than 3090.
Nfarce - Thursday, September 22, 2022 - link
"Nvidia FE also uses garbage design. Only 3090Ti fixes the HW engineering spec problems"Bullfuk. Nothing wrong with my EVGA 3080 Ti FTW3 Ultra or 3060 Ti FTW3 Ultra. Stop spreading FUD.
tamalero - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
But it wasn't only EVGA.During the infamous crunch where 3000 series were almost impossible to get. EVGA were the top seller so no surprise they reported more.
Dante Verizon - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
Wow.. It doesn't look like you read the same article as me. How is Nvidia greedily increasing profit margins at any cost, including at the expense of partners is a positive thing? It's just dirt... I thought Nvidia was a little better than intel in this regard, but they are way worse.Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
The question is still open. mbKhanan - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
You’re the biggest lemon on this platform, so who cares about your opinion. You’re talking nonsense and trash as usual.Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
concentration as costs rise enablers preserving platform values going vertical. the accordion continues. mbHarry_Wild - Friday, September 23, 2022 - link
I am a NVidia, Intel and AMD shareholder too. NVidia will just make up the difference by bringing an overseas partner into the North America marketplace. I hope AMD does the same as Jensen had done. Chinese graphic card Brier? is expanding to EU and then North America. Intel needs to work out the software bugs and launch the rest of their line up before it is obsolete!Cooe - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
"In time, it would be a feather in either AMD or Intel’s cap to line up EVGA as a partner, as they bring a level of sophistication and respect that none of their current AIBs possess."Sapphire would like a word with you... -_-
Ryan Smith - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
I like Sapphire, I really do. They are AMD's premiere partner, and for good reason.But the reputation is not on the level of EVGA's - earned or not.
boozed - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
They were really AMD's first partner?meacupla - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
yeah, sapphire partnership with ATI dates back to their early days.I remember there being sapphire 9700 pro/non-pro models, but I don't remember if there was 8700 or not.
Zoolook - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
There never was a 8700 of that timeperiod, the R200 was used in a Radeon 8500, which was the second generation Radeon.GeoffreyA - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
I've still got my (long-dead) Sapphire Radeon 9250, with 256 MB, lying around. A nice, neat card, but frame rates were disastrous!Khanan - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
I don’t agree, Sapphire recently had a better reputation than EVGA, they had no 6900 XT with heavy problems and failures, compared to the problems EVGA had with the 3090 in New World and other games. Generally before, Sapphire had a comparable reputation to EVGA, they aren’t much different. The quality of Sapphire in the 2020-2022 gen was better though.Kangal - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
Ryan, you're also wrong on the point of AIB and Consumer Mindshare. That may have been correct in the 90s and early 00s. But things have changed in the past 15 years.Consumers know more about "Intel" or "Nvidia" then they know about "Dell" or "EVGA". Those corporate giants haven't spent billions collectively over that timeframe, just on marketing, for nothing.
There is little chance that EVGA comes back to the market. This is like what happened to HTC who has been a phone manufacturing partner for eons. They simply faded away, not with a bang/bankruptcy, but a whimper. HTC does and makes close to nothing, just with VR Headsets. EVGA will follow the same route. They won't make any dGPU Cards, they will have a tiny niche selling something else, and fade into obscurity.
If there was ANY chance for EVGA, I think they should have tried to pivot years ago. Back when they had more power to throw around. Maybe a small partnership with RDNA-1 cards, or just be merged into AMD so that their Founder Edition cards aren't utter trash.
This really is the start of the end of an era. PC Gaming had a nice run... but with Mobile Gaming, Consoles, Cloud Streaming, etc etc Consumers are getting stretched for their time and attention, making hard to justify spending thousands of dollars upfront. Especially with the erosion of the middle-class and worse financial climate for most people living in first-world nations.
blppt - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
"Consumers know more about "Intel" or "Nvidia" then they know about "Dell" or "EVGA". Those corporate giants haven't spent billions collectively over that timeframe, just on marketing, for nothing."I disagree about Dell. I'm willing to bet that even the mainstream non tech savvy consumer has heard about Dell---they're kind of like the Toyota Camry of the PC world. I'd say they're at least as recognized overall as Intel.
GeoffreyA - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
Yes, people know "Dell is a good computer make."Byte - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
I like AMD as much as the next fanboy, but Nvidia GPUs outnumber them more than 9-1. EVGA on top sells like 40%+ of nvidia cards. I don't think going to team red and blue will help EVGA much. For now it looks like they are staying in the sidelines until a successor can figure out what to do.Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
Nvidia controls 50% of GA final produced goods so if EVGA controlled 40% of the independent products THAT IS A TOTALLY HUGE ANTIYRUST VIOLATION. Thank you for the note. mbDigitalFreak - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
Sad thing is that back in the day, Anandtech would have been one of the sites invited to the "secret meeting" that Gamers Nexus and Jayz went to with the EVGA CEO.Byte - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
If kids nowadays could read, that is.nandnandnand - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
https://www.jonpeddie.com/news/evga-wont-offer-nvi...An old man with a blog got in, but not Anandtech.
GeoffreyA - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
Don't worry; the hip and happening present-day reviewers will also have their day when the wheel turns.rmfx - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
If the stats are accurate, that's an absolutely disgusting behavior Nvidia has.Nobody could blame EVGA when witnessing such disrespect and abuse from Nvidia.
Ps: I never understood why GPUs are not manufactured under the main brand only like CPUs are?
catavalon21 - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
It's not really close to a parallel, but what comes to mind as a difference is that video cards have much more than just a GPU processor, whereas CPU manufacturers rarely make or design the entire MoBo.The Von Matrices - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
GPUs have lots of components other than the main ASIC. It's logical that there are AIBs whose job is to gather and assemble all these components on a circuit board. In a similar concept, Intel and AMD don't sell motherboards despite making the silicon that is the chipset.Ryan says that "Video card complexity has increased significantly over the years", which is true for the ASICs themselves, but I beg to differ when it comes to the PCBs. When I look at a modern video card I am always shocked by how few components are on the PCB. Nowadays it's just VRMs, memory chips (sometimes not even that if using HBM), and the ASICs themselves. The actual PCBs are tiny, much smaller than the heatsink and are similar in size to 1990s video cards. The circuit boards even for high end video cards used to have tons of other chips like video decoders and 2D accelerators and sometimes audio codecs. Those days are gone and there is less than ever for a AIB vendor to do.
bubblyboo - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
Intel sold their own branded boards in the past up until Sandy Bridge or so. The list is still on their site.https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/produc...
They got in to ensure QC in the mobo market when 3rd parties were cutting corners, and left once 3rd parties caught up. Part of that is also because selling mobos is low margin. All chip companies still design and internally use reference boards for testing purposes, but most don't think the low margins are worthwhile to sell directly to consumers.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/6685/the-end-of-an-...
Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
"Intel sold their own branded boards in the past"Too much to get into right now. mb
Kamen Rider Blade - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
I think there are different things that a AIB partner would have to do.While there is less in terms of raw circuits to connect, cooling has become even more important along with quality stable power delivery and delivering the right set of Video out connector ports.
The Von Matrices - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
You do make a good point about the cooling device being a point of differentiation; I didn't think about that.jordanclock - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
Designing coolers and power delivery for Nvidia's increasingly power hungry GPUs is a huge expense. Add in the super thin margins with Nvidia's secrecy on pricing and you have a situation where every AIB is gambling on profitability every GPU launch.ET - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
When were there separate video decoders, 2D accelerators, etc.? Apart from the separate 3D chips, which were on their own cards (early 3DFX, PowerVR), the chips included a 2D engine and later codecs.I agree with Ryan. The boards were simpler, as all the signaling was slower and a lot less power passed through the boards. There's a lot of heat design that didn't need to happen in early boards.
Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
mbcatavalon21 - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
Wow. I was waiting for Ryan to dive back in with his typical top-notch video card articles. This sure isn't what I expected, or wanted, but very well done. Thank you.Dizoja86 - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
Well-standard industry capitalist practices aside--I guess now AMD users are going to be stuck with the ugliest designs in the industry. Those clown lip 3xxx cards were atrocious.lane42 - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
Sad Dayboozed - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
I can't be the only person who only cares how well a card performs and how quiet it is in the process?Dizoja86 - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
I mean you might be. Why buy a hideous card when you can buy something that at least isn't an eyesore and performs just as well if not better when it comes to performance and acoustics? EVGA's RTX 3xxx designs were decent but not top of the pack. They weren't the cheapest either.boozed - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
It sits inside the case, I never see it...s.yu - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
So you're the type that doesn't care if there are holes in your underwear.Threska - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
Not much one can do about speed holes.boozed - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
That's the weirdest leap of logic I've encountered in a long timestryfe - Thursday, September 22, 2022 - link
No one sees my videocard when I'm trying to have sex with themRestChem - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
I could care less what any of the components look like, they're not mechanical, there's nothing to see happening, nothing to look at. You know what would be a lot better than a pane of plastic (or glass now, that's the point they're at. Glass.) on the opposide side-panel of a case? A giant extractor fan. I got a monitor if I want to look at something while I'm using my computer, you know? It's frequently a lot more entertaining than gazing at a bunch of blinky lights highlighting the dust and tar accumulation on a static heap of PCBs in designer hues. Bet you dress up your dog, too.Dizoja86 - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
What a bizarre take, RestChem. I didn't mean to trigger you about computer aesthetics, but I'm sure a Xanax would help you out.lordken - Friday, December 2, 2022 - link
lol, you nailed it with that monitor snark, pretty well said@Dizoja86: its not nice recommending xanax if you yourself need something :)
As he said, I dont understand what [mental] deficit ppl has that are after "aesthetics" of stuff thats almost never seen (and even if you have glass case who cares) , what do they compensate that they need "nice" card? To fill that void in the soul?
Also many HW would be cheaper if it wouldnt bring that stupid RGB clownshow bc masses "want" it...my ass...when we get CPUs with RGB lol?
James5mith - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
Don't smoke around your PC, and you won't get tar buildup on the components. Just a thought.Silver5urfer - Friday, September 16, 2022 - link
Excellent article, amazingly well rounded.Shame on how things are turning out, in GN piece we can see how Jensen treats AIBs and he wants to make Nvidia like Apple, a big greedy nasty corporation that yanks everyone (PowerVR, GT Technologies, Qcomm - they failed big since now A series relies on all Qcomm tech only). Not to mention how Vertical integration makes Apple the bidder of the products and they do it by giving contracts to cheaper alternatives - BOE display for instance in China was nothing but now ? even LG cannot face their LCD business which is actually rank #1, imagine LG corporation is facing heat due this crooked Apple. And Nvidia got kicked out by Apple as well but now since AMD has not much marketshare vs Nvidia the greed grows on and on.
Nvidia's policies are horrid to consumers too, they ruin their own HW like axing vBIOS modding by blocking firmware by Signature protection since Pascal. Before that Maxwell's GTX 970 3.5GB nonsense. Ampere's Power delivery failures on 3090 with Amazon's game, they purposefully design their products to be like this with a compromise to fail soon. Asking 2X price for 15% perf on 3080 -> 3090 was absurd. They raked profits in GDDR6X purpose built Ampere to mint mining. They killed the MXM program too for the DTR machines which was actually their own standard. On Linux side they provide garbage drivers as well just like Linus Torvalds says "F**k you Nvidia" an actual video exists too proving the malice of this corporation.
Ultimately this means a massive loss of American market consumers looking at sheer volume of EVGA in US and parts of EU, people have to deal with garbage RMA processing from ASUS, MSI, GB which are huge vs EVGA and also bad services and can take the heat from Nvidia.
But EVGA abandoning this big means they really know that new 40 series and up have severely high manufacturing costs and the profit cuts to Nvidia, plus the FE cards direct competition, even if EVGA tried to buy a lot of Ampere and tried more than they can chew ultimately the entire world finance effected by American Inflation at sky high 9-10%, massive Stock Market slump, poor GPU market and mining crash I can see why they want to take an exit. But do note that TiN left EVGA after Z390 series and the company took a long time to make Z590 out, their new 30 series designs had issues in the start with soldering too, they are losing their talent as we speak. Lucido / Kingpin is also leaving them now, I think there's a lot more parameters to this which is why Andrew Han is taking this approach.
The future is looking bleak to be honest and it's just sad. I hope he doesn't sell the IP and Brand and let it lose it's value, but also needs to think about AMD partnership, that may cause 7000 series skip but potential 8000 RDNA4 might help esp with all the experience of EVGA throwing it all away seems waste of ton of human resources, talent and also opportunities too esp offering consumers, us more choices.
Shame on this greedy Ngreedia corporation, Jensen even though he built a massive company but has not much of a moral code I mean this is a corporation but this is a specific market which is built on trust and mutual respect be it your customers / clients / partners. I really hope AMD can bust them and gain some marketshare and kick some sense into them.
I hate to see any regression in PC x86 space it's just bad.
RobATiOyP - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
Great commentary, was worth reading!Nvidia was forcing board partners to work with minimal info, they even had to beg the press to obtain gfx drivers.
s.yu - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
BOE is not where it is because of Apple though, it took a few right steps at the low end cutting LCD cost and easily grabbed the majority of the Chinese market, where it's easy for them to do business anyway, at the high end it stole some IP from the Koreans and put some pieces together, there was also some help from Beijing, and, maybe supplying *part of* the *lower end* of the Apple lineup made a difference of *some* significance.Dizoja86 - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
It would be interesting to see if AMD can finally catch up and release a modern card with features that match Nvidia's. They've been a generation behind for years now. Not that AMD has any more honour or ethics than Nvidia or Intel, but it's always amusing to watch big shitty corporations giving each other black eyes.RestChem - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
If they ever did, they'd disappear into obscurity, without that line nobody would have any reason to mention them anymore!Oxford Guy - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
‘Jensen even though he built a massive company but has not much of a moral code’Corporations are only moral in the eyes of social Darwinists.
dalewilbanks - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
It's a sign of what's a happening: Graphics Card market has plateaued and will start falling down. My RTX3060 holds up just fine, even the laptop variant is decent. Why do I need to drop $400 on a new graphics card, which this 3060 will rock out for years to come? Nvidia is preparing for the worst.The Von Matrices - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
It's only falling down from an artificial high caused by ethereum mining and coronavirus lockdowns. The PCs with GPUs that are actually used for gaming will still continue to upgrade regularly.Shmee - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
I cannot stand idiots who think that AIB means partner company. It means add in board. Humanity sure can be stupid.Ryan Smith - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
When talking about the industry, AIB has long been shorthand for "Add-in board partner". It's a term that predates even me.Shmee - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
Well that may be so, but it is incredibly stupid. How did we come to this?Threska - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
Apparently the language police have been defunded.GreenReaper - Monday, November 14, 2022 - link
So-called "clipping" is a common linguistic feature. Basically, usage tends towards conciseness. If you would say "AIB partner", but you *know* the "partner" bit is coming from the specific context, you can remove it and still be understood - so people will start to do that. Think about "Danish [pastry]", "Cheddar [cheese]" or "Afro [hairdo]". I guess you could also call it a metonym or synecdoche because the company is referred to by the name of the product it is associated with.boozed - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
That gross margin graph is everything that's wrong with the industry.Not the AIB partners. The fact that Nvidia's margins are so high. Everyone who buys a video card is getting massively ripped off.
s.yu - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
It's better if you buy second-handed, and buying as far below MRSP as possible(certainly not the laughable 10% off AT deal).RestChem - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
Do you buy a lot of high-end GPUs at yard sales and off Craigslist, then? I'm not entirely poking fun, for a while there was a fairly honest market for cannabalising badly-built gaming rigs on places like LetGo, but come on, without even knowing if it runs how much could you afford to spend?Gothmoth - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
nvidia is an absolut greedy sh*it company.. and i say that as nvidia user (because i need cuda).flgt - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
I don’t think what the AIB’s does completely trivial. It’s not just knock out a PCB design and call it a day. They have to manage inventory levels, component lead times, vendor contracts, etc… Also marketing and distribution on the sales end. If NVIDIA gets it sales projections wrong the effects will be greater and they won’t have other companies to screw over with the inventory and costs.coonga - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
Which would be nice; improve driver integration at Intel or AMD, maybe the solution for EVGA. The race for ever higher frequencies leads us directly to the pollution of drinking water since the air is already saturated, let's go there cheerfully.Oxford Guy - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
What we all need are more babies, more guns, and more rapid planned obsolescence.Threska - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
"The company has other product lines, but these are smaller in volume and all in product categories that are even more commoditized than video cards."Upcoming motherboards in an ITX format.
rickon66 - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
"Oh Please Don't Take My EVGA Away"WaltC - Saturday, September 17, 2022 - link
I think EVGA hurt themselves early on by only going with one GPU make. They had nowhere to go if the going with nVidia got rough, and that appears to be just what has happened. If 80% of their income was derived from the sale of nVidia GPUs then EVGA must have lost its shirt selling them recently, as that's the only reason they would jump away from nVidia without making arrangements to pick up the slack with something else. Everybody had a tough time during the shortages for a year, but I don't see that being nVidia's fault. It's a falling out with nVidia, though, certainly. Next month, EVGA could announce that it's going with AMD...I think they need to do something!alufan - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
First things First I have a 6900xt and a 3090 in 2 Machines, never had an EVGA card but have seen they are decent products with good backup.I will not be buying another Nvidia card not because of this, however this action by EVGA only adds to the other issues coming from Nvidia recently, anyone who has studied the recent Financial Day briefing by Jenson will know exactly what I mean when he openly admits to market manipulation and he laments the loss of the last couple of years crazy GPU prices due to mining, the way they seem to treat their partners also speaks volumes of his moral standards and his disregard for others who have helped to grow his company.
I predict Nvidia will push other AIBs out of the market and increase its own FE unit sales or make the TI versions exclusive after all why sell a chip for a few hundred when you can sell the whole card for a thousand plus.
EVGA needs to partner with AMD and do some ass kicking of its own against Nvidia the EVGA name is a strong case for quality and i do believe haveing access to both current flagships the AMD card will come out on top this time, all Nvidia has at the moment is RTX and the next gen AMD is said to be very strong in ray tracing.
Khanan - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
Oh I hope you’re right, would be nice to see Nvidias ass kicked for a change, just like Intels before.Nfarce - Tuesday, October 4, 2022 - link
" all Nvidia has at the moment is RTX and the next gen AMD is said to be very strong in ray tracing."Yeeeahhh....Nvidia only makes GPUs so that's where their R&D goes fully. They do not make processors which also requires R&D funding as AMD does (for not only PCs, but for game consoles). But I always love those comments of "AMD's latest GPU is going to be an Nvidia killer!" Where has that ever happened. Fury X, is that you I hear from the grave? LOL....
Khanan - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
Jensen himself recently said something along the lines that he considers AIBs as useless vultures, that’s also how he treats them, despite the good work they did for Nvidia. Hopefully Nvidia loses market share, this kind of behavior should be punished. And glad the ARM deal did not went through, one of the best news of 2021/2022.IBM760XL - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
I had wondered if nVIDIA was going to 3dfx themselves with regards to AIB partners when they started the Founders Edition program, it took a few years but it seems the answer is at least in part yes.I agree that you can't blame EVGA for leaving with that trend in margins. It would be fascinating to learn if the situation is similar for other partners. I'd have to imagine it's broadly similar for other nVIDIA-exclusive partners. Probably somewhat similar for AMD partners, though perhaps not to the same degree. We'll probably never know unless other ones leave the market.
On EVGA peripherals, I just bought an EVGA mouse. So far I'm happy with it. But I've only had it about a week...
RestChem - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
Remember when sites like this one would round up as many of the various AIBs' versions of a particular GPU as they could get and bench them all against one another? Really stress-test them and report faults even prior to replacement? I bet the AIBs hated that, but I also bet it pushed them to work harder and turn out better, stabler, faster, cooler designs. In turn, I bet NV wasn't crazy either about their reference boards maybe getting trashed by people working harder. But the end-users benefitted. Feels like we're kind of an afterthought anymore, but there's a piece missing in this whole mess, maybe it's us.JACK4888 - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
And then there were 3, Intel, AMD, and NVIDIA. Before you know it EVGA will be bought by a giant and mobo production will become 3 "competitors".NickSam - Sunday, September 18, 2022 - link
The JPR gross margin chat is very misleading. NVIDIA have a big enterprise/data center business (AI, deep learning ...etc) that enjoys significant margins that resulted in their overall company 60+% gross margin. For AIB margin, another reference take a look at HK listed PC Partners (1263.HK), who owns ZOTAC, Inno3D and Manli - also have 80% of revenue from consumer graphics cards. Their latest (interim) 1H2022 finical reports list gross profit at 20.7% and net profit at 12.1% - I think that is representative of AIBs consumer graphics business.Bruzzone - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
I agree JPR AIB gross margin take is many questions on the industrial management rules of profit maximization at every tier of the supply and sales distribution chain means Jon needs to replaced as Board Association Manager. mbBruzzone - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
I'm not sure how many fell for less than profit maximization in the AIB supply chain but at x18 over the price of the GPU alone in 2021 everyone figured it out. Jon u'r fired. mb5j3rul3 - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
The Historyiranterres - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
"(though to be sure, reputation isn’t necessarily representative of the real world)."The article was decent until i've read this stupid line.
Bruzzone - Monday, September 19, 2022 - link
Data, situation assessment, questions and I trust some answers.Nvidia GA FE taper represents 17.4% of GA desktop PCI.
Nvidia GA mobile thrusts designed as Intel counter adds 26.6%
Nvidia Professional A series adds 6%.
Nvidia controls 50% of its supply.
I'm aware 3090ti FE entry price was meant to drag and press down inflated dGPU channel pricing on cartelization of the supply resulting in consumer discriminatory pricing between April 2021 and December 2021 that was up to x18 over the Nvidia price of the GPU component alone to the AIB.
Monopoly price premiums are x9 to x11 over the primary component price to the board house and at x18 is a cartel price. FE tapers were meant to lead price down but apparently interfered in AIB independent cost : price / margin decisions.
Here's a traditional cost : price / margin example industrially speaking on production economic best practice;
Risk production price = cost x2
Ramp if demand constrained usually not = cost x1.75
Peak production doubles volume now cost x1.5 = component price unless there is still a bunch of demand then the price will be held up. AMD and Intel are both basically x1.5 design producers.
Entering supply elastic price through run down = cost x1.25.
And at run end, the very last unit cost = price. This is what EVGA seems to have gotten got caught up in and EVGA walked.
NOTE while AMD and Nvidia RDNA ll and GA MSRPs at launch were fake PR prices, discriminatory to the board house, board houses made money all through 2021 on the basic cost : price / margin 'profit maximization' rule selling into national distribution. No one was losing money with end sales prices reaching x18 over the price of the GPU component itself to the AIB. Retail likely made the most money and that was AMD and Nvidia margin used to pay down the channels Intel inventory loss; cost : price offset.
Here are the AMD and Nvidia fake RDNA ll and Ampere prices
3080 @ $699
3070 @ $499
3060ti @ $399
3060 @ $319
6900XT @ $999
6800XT @ $649
6800 @ $580
Absolutely no way to make money at these suggested prices at x2.54 to x3.59 over the price of the GPU component alone to the AIB. x4 is considered the top end of a competitive profit but that only takes into account an OpEx 'variable cost' value. x5 enters economic profit point that begins to pay against R&D and int CapEx.
So, Nvidia said no or EVGA said no to forms of 'run end' cost : price / margin protection? This can include new product allocation discount to make up for prior losses and/or mobile inclusion and/or private label work or any number of mutually codependent business perks.
Was EVGA not only a board design producer but also Nvidia GPU broker dealer, reselling procurement overage to bring down the total cost of primary procurements? At run end means EVGA might have been caught with GA supply that was underwater in terms of brokerage.
I reported this on August 13 current card profit margin in the channel on sales price and that's all upstream from the sales outlet to the AIB [buffer] and then the component design producer. Notice much greater volumes of mid to bottom shelf is subsidizing top shelf.
3090ti makes 8% over cost
3090 losses 1.8%
3080ti makes 3%
3080 12 losses 13%
3080 10 price = cost
3070ti makes 10.4%
3070 makes 20%
3060ti makes 7.4%
3060 makes 16.2%
3050 makes 12% over cost
6950XT losses 4% over cost
6900XT loses 49%
6800XT losses 7%
6800 loses 14%
6750XT makes 25%
6700XT makes 10%
6650XT males 31%
6600XT makes 22%
6500XT loses 38%
6400 price = cost
Here's the volume to see how mid and bottom shelf on greater inventory volume is subsidizes the top shelf price discounting at retail.
AMD RDNA ll N6x desktop only
6950XT = 0.48%
6900XT = 9.30%
6800XT = 8.35%
6800 = 5.88%
6750XT = 0.79%
6700XT = 21.10%
6600XT = 16.93%
6650XT = 1.19%
6600 = 28.50%
6500XT = 5.76%
6400 = 1.71%
Nvidia Ampere RTX 3x00_ desktop only
3090ti = 2.26%
3090 = 13.99%
3080ti 12 GB = 7.70%
3080 12 GB = 13.83%
3080 10 GB = 10.76%
3070ti = 12.61%
3070 = 10.22%
3060ti = 10.76%
3060 = 15.07%
3050 = 2.79%
On AD, 4000 series are commercial and B2B cards foremost and AMD and Nvidia have been encouraged to price along a perfect pareto distribution curve, segment by segment application specific perfect pricing (on ROI) to prevent cartelization of supply and the channel running away with AMD and Nvidia margin that should be going to AMD and Nvidia. This method also protects AIBs insuring they also participate in profit maximization.
Here's my take on what AD price will be and if it's not I will quickly know why;
RTX 40x0 cost : price / margin assessment on GA real cost : price / margin on AIB x3 to x6 over their price of GPU itself that was not the fake MSRP.
I will also note x7 over cost of the GPU component itself is also not unreasonable for fully featured highest materials cards. And my down bin 'bottom shelf' here might be a bit low.
For engineers a bottom-up B.O.M assessment can be relied and I did that for TU and after a while just went with production economic multipliers over GPU cost to the AIB because it's an effective method that takes a lot less time. For example x5 would be the basic Intel CPU takes 20% of the PC price rule.
4090 = $2649 to $2931
4080ti = $1414 to $1545
4080 = 1146
4070ti = 877
4070 = 731
4060ti = 489
4060 = 441
4050 = 248
Ball parked but close enough on MC = MR entering AIB x3 to x6 over GPU price. I will know what any difference is and know what is and is not justified.
And here's past peak into run down price;
4090 = $1986
4080ti = $1060
4080 = 859
4070ti = 658
4070 = 548
4060ti = 439
4060 = 330
4050 = 186
Mike Bruzzone
Camp Marketing
Qasar - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ALL pointless and useless fluff, from the KING of Camp Fluff Marketing.probably mostly made up numbers. with NO links to sources for this, so no one can verify anything, its just BS. also sounds like he is drunk. come on Mike, stop posting this SPAM BS, unless you also post a SOURCE, and NO YOU are not a source.
Bruzzone - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
'"probably" most made up numbers"', Quasar, I see you're beginning to come around, "probably", ,well good for you beginning to see the light!I offered and even posted formula's so anyone can figure this out on their own. Why aren't you Quasar doing your own assessments then we can have a back and forth on our determinations.
On my primary research the assessment is on channel, primarily ebay data, which you are aware.
On Nvidia AD price announced today 4090 at $1599 is a PR price let's see what the channel and AIBs price at. Ampere run end loss leaders, on GA inventory cost loss, will result in the channel setting premiums for Ada to make up their Ampere and other inventory losses for example Rocket S deadweight is a $4.5 billion industry and channel loss. Tiger U quad mobile also presents a huge surplus situation new inventory sitting on the shelf.
I will note that no one lost on Ampere throughout 2021 where card prices are as much as x18 over the Price of the GPU itself to the AIB. EVGA seems to have been caught holding inventory at run end where under profit maximization price falls to cost affects run end inventory especially if EVGA in addition to card design production is brokering individual GPUs to others as an Nvidia broker dealer.
I'm very close on 4080 between the two variants at an average of $1060 that is $11 more than the MSRP average but the weighted average will be different. One of the two cards 12 or 16 will sell in greater volume. Nvidia AD introduction price suggests NV is taking a 50% mark up over their cost / price from TSMC. I'll address this in greater detail as I have more data.
Some day Quasar please inform all how a primary source, primary research analyst is not the original source of their assessment. The data is channel primarily ebay and the calculations are basic production economic and profit max frameworks.
mb
Qasar - Wednesday, September 21, 2022 - link
" ,well good for you beginning to see the light! "nope all i see is a fraud and a fake.
" I offered and even posted formula's so anyone can figure this out on their own. Why aren't you Quasar doing your own assessments"
with what numbers Myke Brazzone ? the fake and made up ones that you pull out of thin air? what would the point of that be ? to prove you fake data is useful ?
" Some day Quasar please inform all how a primary source, primary research analyst is not the original source of their assessment. The data is channel primarily ebay and the calculations are basic production economic and profit max frameworks. "
the day you post links to your sources, will be the primary source, you are NOT a primary source, in any way shape OR form. as i said above, your just a fraud and a fake, who posts BS and fluff. you NEVER post a link to your sources, as there are NONE. every thing you post is BS, hell, a couple of people i have shown your posts to, asked me if you were drunk when you typed them, as some of what you type makes no sense and is just babble.
maybe change your name from, camp marketing to Camp Fluff marketing ? as that is what most of what you post looks to be, Fluff.
Dribble - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
Most of the comments don't make sense - Nvidia is both making far too much money and screwing EVGA while undercutting them by selling founders cards cheaper.Bruzzone - Tuesday, September 20, 2022 - link
Not including professional or mobile, FE cards for GA full run = 17% of total production volume. FE cards for TU full run = 6% which corrects a spreadsheet error earlier today on the PC World show where I stated 1%, whoops but its correct now.FE cards have increased from TU to GA full run by 183%.
But where Nvidia made big volume gains between TU and GA is in laptop. GA mobile = 26% of Ampere RTX and Max-q in the prior TU generation not including professional = 2.2%.
mb
sniperdoc - Wednesday, September 21, 2022 - link
Honestly, I used to love EVGA. Then, they started overcharging for their cards, and all other vendors starting going crazy with pricing on their cards, and I'm not talking COVID times... I'm talking B.C. (before COVID). I honestly don't think it has anything to do with "OMG, they won't let us do what we wanna do" and "we can't compete"... Utter bull.Starting way back with the 900 series, if they'd have kept their pricing inline with what nVidia recommended as MSRP instead of almost charging double, then maybe people would have been able to afford their stuff and actually bought their stock. Now, vendors all have a major surplus because no one could afford to buy their overpriced products. I'm sure this had plenty to do with the shuttering of the EVGA Taiwan offices, and now with the "exodus" from nVidia.
Beyond that, there's this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/xgn7do/we...
It sounds to me like EVGA is just having issues overall. I used to like them... back in the day... these past 6 - 7 years... not so much.
Nfarce - Thursday, September 22, 2022 - link
Bullshit thrice over and here's why....1) Any link from Reddit is immediately flushed down the toilet as a credible point source (why not just thrown in a Tik-Tok link while you are at it).
2) EVGA was NOT the leader in "overcharging" for GPUs (whatever that means). I've been an EVGA buyer since 2009 with the GTX 275/285 series and their prices were in line with other AIB vendors EXCEPT with their premium overclocked SKUs like the current FTW3 series (means binned chips that can take higher factory overclocks).
3) EVGA's revenue margin for GPUs is only 15% even though their GPUs currently comprise 80% of the company's entire sales revenue. That's not a sustainable business model.
Harry_Wild - Friday, September 23, 2022 - link
EVGA NVidia cards accounts for 80% of EVGA total business! EVGA said they only made a 5% profit margin on each card. So it a breakeven business for them since they were limited from raising price on their models.saniya - Sunday, September 25, 2022 - link
Sir, I keep visiting your website and I think your website is very nice, I think your website is the best website in the world and you should publish similar articles in it.Violet Giraffe - Monday, September 26, 2022 - link
On the one hand I want to say "Good riddance" because I have never bought an EVGA product and highly unlikely that I ever would, but on the other hand a competitor going out of the market has never improved the market for the customers.vision33r - Wednesday, October 5, 2022 - link
Nvidia no longer needs EVGA as much as they used to be. All of the Tesla and enterprise cards are OEM. One of the reason Nvidia has posted fatter profits because they are reaping all of the enterprise sales. All cloud providers are buying their enterprise GPU offerings. While they are still depending on consumer card sales. Eventually they will be offering GPUs to enterprise and cloud.Yirath - Tuesday, October 11, 2022 - link
It is truly sad to see such a partnership ended in such a poor way. This reflects negatively on Nvidia for me and I can't support such aggressive behaviors being pushed on EVGA. I personally had many EVGA graphics cards and they served me well. Hopefully EVGA returns with a vengeance with something never before seen.