the color legend on the web/javascript seems to be messed up/makes no sense
..
also I think to call the Xe gpu in the intel box as "new" is not quite right - it's not the new architecture (ie Arc) or even close, just shares the branding - it's clearly from the same series that gave us tehe HD 400 way back, and the HD 770 (such as found in the i5-12500) - the difference is that this box has 3x the EU (@96) compared to the i5-12500 (32 EU)... hence the good performance.
Whatever the issues with ARC drivers might be, the iGPU drivers for Linux work quite well also with the newer Xe based variants. The worst I had to do was to force the i915 drivers to accept the unknown Xe PCI device ID via a boot parameter for the kernel.
No issues on Windows 10/11 either, while there could be trouble with AMD GPUs on Windows server editions because AMD likes to save money on driver signatures there. I used to run Windows server on earlier APUs (Richmond/Kaveri) and had to fiddle hard to get them working anyway.
+1 Xe seems to work nice, EXCEPT os 21.10->22.04 upgrade. I had only one of 11400h, and it failed hard on gpu driver to the point where after bios integrated screen was completely unresponsive. (external worked fine though) Purge -> reboot -> new installation, fixed it. I always run proposed, but still that was unusual. I never had screen just nope and completely middle finger me. Otherwise, it's fine, but I personally feel like it's never under 50'c and It's annoying to use for longer, if there is any load. Might be acer fault, but I feel like all of intels are toasters now.
I'm afraid there is no Thunderbolt in the Intel variant either..., I checked all references I could find.
And that's really too bad, because for this to work as a µ-server I'd use the TB connector to attach 10GBase-T Ethernet based on AQC107 e.g. as sold by Sabrent. The main advantage is really solid Linux support since years, much better than for the various 2.5 variants from RealTek and Intel.
The AQC113 chip is out there (hopefully fully AQC107 driver compatible), please ASRock add it to the base board on both devices and I shall buy one of each at least!
2.5Gbit/s is a long overdue improvement over Gbit, but no longer adequate either. And while it will a few Watts when used at max speed (I think about 3 with Green Ethernet), these boxes aren't running on batteries.
I guess the 2nd set of PCIe x4 would become allocated to Thunderbolt on the Intel variant, if that's really working. AFAIK at least some re-timer chips or similar are both required and in short supply, which is why I'd want working proof.
AFAIK the AQC113 can do 10GBase-T out of PCIe 4.0 x1 or PCIe 3.0 x2 (or even PCIe 2.0 x4, like the AQC107). So just by dropping the 2nd Gbit, they'd gain all the resources required on Cezanne.
Yes, a couple of millimeters in height and a Noctua cooler would make all the difference in conjunction with open power and fan settings in the BIOS.
Since these mainboard are so similar, perhaps somebody (even ASRock) could come up with an alternate chassis?
I have zero software issues with various kinds of Linux on my 5800U based notebook, while I'm pretty sure all that P/E drama isn't yet sorted out in enterprise Linux. I'm pretty sure that E/P won't reduce the energy footprint on such a NUC in my operations, nor provide better performance under load.
But with systems so closely matched, at least now I could find out.
Yes, the Type-C port close to the Type-A one is indeed Thunderbolt 4. I tested out by connecting the Plugable Thunderbolt 4 Hub to it, and then connecting a Thunderbolt 3-only SSD to one of the downstream ports. I made sure that the TB3 SSD delivered PCIe performance with a quick CrystalDiskMark workload.
Regarding the height of the case, there is no need to increase it. Intel has proved, already many years ago, that it is possible to cool without problems even a CPU with PL1 = 45 W, without increasing the volume over the classic high variant of NUC, i.e. with a volume under 0.7 L (as proven by the Skull Canyon NUC, which unfortunately did not have any successor, because Intel replaced it with much larger "NUC" computers intended for gaming).
For better cooling in the same case, it would be enough to remove the possibility of installing a 2.5" HDD/SDD, while keeping the same size for the case.
The freed height could be used for a taller cooler, with enough capacity to cool even a 45 W CPU, not only a 28 W CPU.
I want to add that even in the coolers of the same height the quality can vary a lot, presumably depending on price.
I have a couple of the "8th generation" NUCs, and those had much better coolers than all the older NUCs that I have used, but also, from what I have heard or read, much better than the coolers of newer NUCs, which presumably have reverted to some cheaper coolers.
Those NUC8 coolers, not only are completely silent in normal use, but at maximum load on a Coffee Lake U i7 CPU with PL1 = 30 W and PL2 = 50 W, i.e. with a PL1 default value that is higher than the 28 W nominal value, there is absolutely no thermal throttling regardless how long the computer works at the maximum power consumption of 30 W and the junction temperature never exceeds 90 Celsius degrees.
So a more expensive cooler might also provide an improvement even when it is not taller.
Thinking that would be good also. What about Android x86 as an alternative? Both should still be well embedded in Alphabet's ecosystem and feature the end user monitoring, data collection, and commercialization recommendations that Google is so good at in terms of how it partners with advertisers to get you relevant, interesting ad content.
You could also probably install Linux on bare metal if all you want is vanilla Linux though you aren't going to benefit from having your compute activities observed for better product placement that you would with Google distros of Linux.
I'd really love to see HDMI 2.1 ports on these machines since both AMD and Intel platforms should theoretically be able to support the newer standard from their iGPUs.
If either supported HDMI 2.1 I'd consider using one as a multimedia box hooked up to a TV.
Excellent review, Ganesh! Really enjoyed seeing the battle between these two CPUs. Some of the wins for the Intel Alder Lake were surprising, like the iGPU and in some benchmarks like 7-zip, 5800U is a monster! Hope to see more "reviews done right" from you soon!
Interesting compute platforms. Its a pity they had to name the AMD variant "4X4" which would feel pretty terrible in terms of putting one on a desk thanks to all the negative connotations surrounding vehicles and their owners that have similar brand identifiers. Its going to inhibit AMD sales in the US significantly because of how few people want to be associated with that part of our subculture, especially now that things are so polarized. Nothing like setting AMD up for failure by people outside the nation that just don't understand the meaning behind appealing to that one sub-group which, thankfully, does not represent everyone in the US even if it is a loud and visible portion of the population.
I love East Asian English. I lived in Taiwan early in my career, and I think I prefer their English (and adore their innocent love of Americana). My Taiwanese first wife is long gone, but I sincerely hope my current wife (from Thailand) retains that eager, wholesome English with an easy-to-love accent.
The box is indeed small and looks good. However, it heats pretty quickly when loaded and the blower fan is not silent :-( I guess it should be better with a 5000 series, not sure though.
I can attest to the ASROCK 4x4 4800U - nice NUC. ASROCK support is fantastic. The AMD version has great connectivity. For the 5800U would like 128GB mem instead of 64GB. Fan noise may be an issue. And video rather weak. However I am saving over $200 year on electricity. ASROCK makes great NUCs.
'Due to the variation in configured power limits for both processors, it is not possible to do a scientific apples-to-apples comparison for each benchmark.'
Impressive little pc's. I'd be interested how noisy the cooling is. I had an optiplex 7050 with i5-7500t (tdp 35w) gave me a headache with a whiny fan.
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yannigr2 - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
Nice review thanks.Considering Intel's optimizations for 3D benchmarks, 1-2 games are a necessity for closer to real life results.
Dante Verizon - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
Yes, some games and real world benchmarks...PeachNCream - Saturday, August 6, 2022 - link
Probably costs too much in terms of time and money to use real world applications. :(xol - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
the color legend on the web/javascript seems to be messed up/makes no sense..
also I think to call the Xe gpu in the intel box as "new" is not quite right - it's not the new architecture (ie Arc) or even close, just shares the branding - it's clearly from the same series that gave us tehe HD 400 way back, and the HD 770 (such as found in the i5-12500) - the difference is that this box has 3x the EU (@96) compared to the i5-12500 (32 EU)... hence the good performance.
xol - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
postscript I'm just gonna say that using the old HD graphics architecture is no bad thing .. at least the drivers will work ! (jokes on Arc for now_abufrejoval - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
Whatever the issues with ARC drivers might be, the iGPU drivers for Linux work quite well also with the newer Xe based variants. The worst I had to do was to force the i915 drivers to accept the unknown Xe PCI device ID via a boot parameter for the kernel.No issues on Windows 10/11 either, while there could be trouble with AMD GPUs on Windows server editions because AMD likes to save money on driver signatures there. I used to run Windows server on earlier APUs (Richmond/Kaveri) and had to fiddle hard to get them working anyway.
deil - Sunday, August 28, 2022 - link
+1 Xe seems to work nice, EXCEPT os 21.10->22.04 upgrade. I had only one of 11400h, and it failed hard on gpu driver to the point where after bios integrated screen was completely unresponsive. (external worked fine though) Purge -> reboot -> new installation, fixed it. I always run proposed, but still that was unusual. I never had screen just nope and completely middle finger me. Otherwise, it's fine, but I personally feel like it's never under 50'c and It's annoying to use for longer, if there is any load. Might be acer fault, but I feel like all of intels are toasters now.abufrejoval - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
I'm afraid there is no Thunderbolt in the Intel variant either..., I checked all references I could find.And that's really too bad, because for this to work as a µ-server I'd use the TB connector to attach 10GBase-T Ethernet based on AQC107 e.g. as sold by Sabrent. The main advantage is really solid Linux support since years, much better than for the various 2.5 variants from RealTek and Intel.
The AQC113 chip is out there (hopefully fully AQC107 driver compatible), please ASRock add it to the base board on both devices and I shall buy one of each at least!
2.5Gbit/s is a long overdue improvement over Gbit, but no longer adequate either. And while it will a few Watts when used at max speed (I think about 3 with Green Ethernet), these boxes aren't running on batteries.
abufrejoval - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
Ok, now finshed reading the review ;-)I guess the 2nd set of PCIe x4 would become allocated to Thunderbolt on the Intel variant, if that's really working. AFAIK at least some re-timer chips or similar are both required and in short supply, which is why I'd want working proof.
AFAIK the AQC113 can do 10GBase-T out of PCIe 4.0 x1 or PCIe 3.0 x2 (or even PCIe 2.0 x4, like the AQC107). So just by dropping the 2nd Gbit, they'd gain all the resources required on Cezanne.
Yes, a couple of millimeters in height and a Noctua cooler would make all the difference in conjunction with open power and fan settings in the BIOS.
Since these mainboard are so similar, perhaps somebody (even ASRock) could come up with an alternate chassis?
I have zero software issues with various kinds of Linux on my 5800U based notebook, while I'm pretty sure all that P/E drama isn't yet sorted out in enterprise Linux. I'm pretty sure that E/P won't reduce the energy footprint on such a NUC in my operations, nor provide better performance under load.
But with systems so closely matched, at least now I could find out.
ganeshts - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
Yes, the Type-C port close to the Type-A one is indeed Thunderbolt 4. I tested out by connecting the Plugable Thunderbolt 4 Hub to it, and then connecting a Thunderbolt 3-only SSD to one of the downstream ports. I made sure that the TB3 SSD delivered PCIe performance with a quick CrystalDiskMark workload.ASRock also mentions it in their block diagram..
AdrianBc - Saturday, August 6, 2022 - link
Regarding the height of the case, there is no need to increase it. Intel has proved, already many years ago, that it is possible to cool without problems even a CPU with PL1 = 45 W, without increasing the volume over the classic high variant of NUC, i.e. with a volume under 0.7 L (as proven by the Skull Canyon NUC, which unfortunately did not have any successor, because Intel replaced it with much larger "NUC" computers intended for gaming).For better cooling in the same case, it would be enough to remove the possibility of installing a 2.5" HDD/SDD, while keeping the same size for the case.
The freed height could be used for a taller cooler, with enough capacity to cool even a 45 W CPU, not only a 28 W CPU.
AdrianBc - Saturday, August 6, 2022 - link
I want to add that even in the coolers of the same height the quality can vary a lot, presumably depending on price.I have a couple of the "8th generation" NUCs, and those had much better coolers than all the older NUCs that I have used, but also, from what I have heard or read, much better than the coolers of newer NUCs, which presumably have reverted to some cheaper coolers.
Those NUC8 coolers, not only are completely silent in normal use, but at maximum load on a Coffee Lake U i7 CPU with PL1 = 30 W and PL2 = 50 W, i.e. with a PL1 default value that is higher than the 28 W nominal value, there is absolutely no thermal throttling regardless how long the computer works at the maximum power consumption of 30 W and the junction temperature never exceeds 90 Celsius degrees.
So a more expensive cooler might also provide an improvement even when it is not taller.
plonk420 - Thursday, August 18, 2022 - link
3dprint one?AdrianBc - Saturday, August 6, 2022 - link
For some reason, the Thunderbolt connector has not been certified yet.Because of that, it cannot be advertised yet.
However, I have seen multiple reports that it works without problems, including in this article.
fishingbait15 - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
So wish we could get these things running ChromeOS. I wonder if ChromeOS Flex would at least allow the Linux crosvm to run ...PeachNCream - Sunday, August 7, 2022 - link
Thinking that would be good also. What about Android x86 as an alternative? Both should still be well embedded in Alphabet's ecosystem and feature the end user monitoring, data collection, and commercialization recommendations that Google is so good at in terms of how it partners with advertisers to get you relevant, interesting ad content.You could also probably install Linux on bare metal if all you want is vanilla Linux though you aren't going to benefit from having your compute activities observed for better product placement that you would with Google distros of Linux.
iranterres - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
Nice to see the core i6 in the benchmarks.MrCommunistGen - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
I'd really love to see HDMI 2.1 ports on these machines since both AMD and Intel platforms should theoretically be able to support the newer standard from their iGPUs.If either supported HDMI 2.1 I'd consider using one as a multimedia box hooked up to a TV.
nandnandnand - Friday, August 5, 2022 - link
https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/01/05/intel-alde...https://www.theverge.com/2022/1/4/22855915/intel-1...
Intel only integrated HDMI 2.0b support. I guess another chip has to be added to get HDMI 2.1, like in this:
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/85259/gigabyte-brix...
Rembrandt supports HDMI 2.1, as will the iGPU in Raphael. Raptor Lake will add it according to this leaked slide:
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Raptor-Lake-S-...
So it will become more common to see HDMI 2.1 support in 2023-2024. DisplayPort 2.0 as well.
Igor_Kavinski - Saturday, August 6, 2022 - link
Excellent review, Ganesh! Really enjoyed seeing the battle between these two CPUs. Some of the wins for the Intel Alder Lake were surprising, like the iGPU and in some benchmarks like 7-zip, 5800U is a monster! Hope to see more "reviews done right" from you soon!PeachNCream - Saturday, August 6, 2022 - link
Interesting compute platforms. Its a pity they had to name the AMD variant "4X4" which would feel pretty terrible in terms of putting one on a desk thanks to all the negative connotations surrounding vehicles and their owners that have similar brand identifiers. Its going to inhibit AMD sales in the US significantly because of how few people want to be associated with that part of our subculture, especially now that things are so polarized. Nothing like setting AMD up for failure by people outside the nation that just don't understand the meaning behind appealing to that one sub-group which, thankfully, does not represent everyone in the US even if it is a loud and visible portion of the population.TheinsanegamerN - Tuesday, August 9, 2022 - link
Tell me you chug soy without telling me you chug soy.SkipPerk - Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - link
I love East Asian English. I lived in Taiwan early in my career, and I think I prefer their English (and adore their innocent love of Americana). My Taiwanese first wife is long gone, but I sincerely hope my current wife (from Thailand) retains that eager, wholesome English with an easy-to-love accent.domih - Saturday, August 6, 2022 - link
Thanks for the review!ASRock 4x4 4800U owner here.
The box is indeed small and looks good. However, it heats pretty quickly when loaded and the blower fan is not silent :-( I guess it should be better with a 5000 series, not sure though.
rexnyc - Monday, August 8, 2022 - link
Thanks for the in depth review. Is it possible to enable XMP on either of these?TheinsanegamerN - Tuesday, August 9, 2022 - link
Really disappointing that once again OEMs are screwing AMD by using USB 2.0 on the rar of the AMD box and 3.2 on the intel box.Oxford Guy - Sunday, August 21, 2022 - link
USB 2 has no place on any new equipment in 2022.SkipPerk - Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - link
Does anyone know why AMD boards are getting shipped with USB2? I always use these for peripherals.[email protected] - Wednesday, August 10, 2022 - link
I can attest to the ASROCK 4x4 4800U - nice NUC. ASROCK support is fantastic. The AMD version has great connectivity. For the 5800U would like 128GB mem instead of 64GB. Fan noise may be an issue. And video rather weak. However I am saving over $200 year on electricity. ASROCK makes great NUCs.Dug - Friday, August 12, 2022 - link
Would be nice if manufacturers would start releasing 6800u variants from AMD.erotomania - Saturday, August 20, 2022 - link
Very nice writing, Ganesh. I enjoyed reading the whole article, and I perhaps most enjoyed the section on storage. I would read more, just sayin'.Oxford Guy - Sunday, August 21, 2022 - link
'Due to the variation in configured power limits for both processors, it is not possible to do a scientific apples-to-apples comparison for each benchmark.'And the differences between the SSDs.
Oxford Guy - Sunday, August 21, 2022 - link
Perhaps I missed it. Where is the decibel-to-performance data, or even a simple noise under tough real-world workload chart?stan_dman - Wednesday, August 24, 2022 - link
Impressive little pc's. I'd be interested how noisy the cooling is. I had an optiplex 7050 with i5-7500t (tdp 35w) gave me a headache with a whiny fan.