The review was a little down on the P-M. The reviews I've seen show that a 2ghz dothan is about the equivalent of an athlon 3700+ -, so yes the price-performance isnt much better than an Athlon. I will seriously consider a Yonah when they're released...
quote: Hopefully the embargoed X2 will alleviate some of AMD's criticism for not providing a low cost dual core processor.
Even at the so-called high price thier charging the forum is full of them.. at least 40. Same at xtreme. same at techreport. Guess how many Pentium dually I've seen at anandtech? Zero. I wonder why? Could it be the cheapest 4200 out performs the $1100 840EE?
quote: No one would argue that AMD has the weaker dual core chip.
#22 I dont think anyone said anything negative about the pentium M but since I'm just skimming through the post so I might have missed it.
They are the best gaming cpus clock-for-clock, but perform slower at pretty much everything else. Also, a 2GHz dothan costs about the same as a 2.4Ghz San Diego, which it will, most certainly, not outperform at ANYTHING.
KeithDust2000: I agree with Furen. We don't know when the 3800+ will show up and what the actual price might be. If it shows up in the channel in September, the D820 might be $50 cheaper (as will 945P boards no doubt). It's not really worth speculating about until the chips hit the channel in my opinion.
"So compare $605 for AMD versus $375 for Intel; it comes to about 1.6. I would still think the D820 has the advantage although I would be very interested in seeing the new AMD chip in a couple weeks."
He's comparing the currently available X2 chips to the currently available PDs ($515 for an X2 4200 and 90 bucks for an NForce4 mobo). The X2 3800 is not available right now and who knows what the price and availability will be at launch...
I´d say that´s pretty close, and if you already have
S939... Anyway, you also get a much better product. That´s 2x3200+ instead of 2x2.8Ghz, und the additional power savings, the architectural benefits...
Your $605 number makes no sense, or what am I missing?
From another thread, but what exactly makes you think that Conroe and Merom will hold the performance lead in their respective segments for "quite a while"?
@ Kristofer:
The Athlon 64 X2 3800+ @ $345 (street prices tend to be lower than list) may not be the cheapest chip on the block, but it should imho be the best
price/performance chip on the market.
With it, AMD has basically the Pentium D 830, 840
and EE covered (in terms of price) - and that despite Anand´s earlier
insistence that X2 would may not be available at all this year, or very late this year, at retail. It should also have the Pentium
D 820 covered for those that already own a S939 board. Not bad at all for the little manufacturer.
BTW, die size of the part amounts to 147mm^2, which is the same size as Newcastle. AMD should be able to make quite a few of those should the need arise.
So compare $605 for AMD versus $375 for Intel; it comes to about 1.6. I would still think the D820 has the advantage although I would be very interested in seeing the new AMD chip in a couple weeks. Let's just hope they ship near launch time so that we won't be waiting as pricing on the D820/D840 and X2 chips plummets.
the difference between the x2 coming in august and the lowest pentium-D is 345/240 or 1.4, factor in that the pentium needs a more expensive motherboard than the x2 and that drops down to 15-30% more, which is reasonable
we can ignore ram prices, ddr and ddr2 are pretty much equal
I'm getting nothing at all showing up in the lists of prices, except for maybe one or two parts every page or two. For instance on the AMD Desktop page, all I see is
sprockkets: I don't know if you've used an Intel CPU lately... they basically mount the thing on the motherboard with plastic anchors. Then again, they've done that since the original Pentium if you really think about it!
JGunther: AMD's fab 30 is hardly a high production fab (it's barely more than a foundry) and yes, the entire facility isn't even dedicated to X2/Opteron A6 production. Meanwhile all of Intel's fabs are doing dual core production...
Let's be honest, Intel doesn't have a chance on the technology front here. No doubt about it, AMD has Intel licked as far as tech goes. Unfortunately, they can't seem to make it on the cheap like they did the Barton series.
Throw me a sub $300 A64 dual core chip (even a Sempron) and I am sure it will do circles around the D820. Unfortunately, AMD isn't even close to something like that right now. Maybe 01'06.
5 - the point is that there's a reason Pentium D can cost quite a lot less than the X2. You can love AMD all you want, but the simple fact of life is that Intel is way ahead in production capabilities, and that leads to the higher prices. Even the upcoming X2 won't change that too much. It will still cost over 50% more than the 820 I think, and is it 50% faster?
I want to try to get some OC tests done with some of these chips, particularly the Turion/Mobile Athlon parts. We'll see....
lol. check it out.... across the board.... lol. wtf intel?
i know the EE of course does video really well, but er, yeah. what a minute % of computing time is devoted to video compression..... and that cant wait another minute....
Ya know, I can't understand the high level dual core intels, the low end, they sound neat for certain uses and business things def. so.
However, I would rather eat glass in truth than buy any intel besides a Dothan 2.1ghz, which is more money than it should be.
amd just has a retarded freakin way to explain their cores and chips.
I dont personally think that the Toledo 4400 is going to drop anytime until january by any noticable degree. They have the market cornered on the best dual cores, and well, for 600 dollars I can get myself a sick proc and also feel dumb that I spent that much.
i wonder if M2 is going to be anything. it must have something up it's sleeve. as it stands now it doesnt offer a blessed thing.
#5 - you sound extremely pro-AMD with that statement, and you probably are.
I didn't detect any subtle pro-intel remarks in this article at all. If you notice, Kris recommends against a Prescott processor. I'm afraid I don't see the bias here...
"Intel is currently pumping out dual core processors in all of their fabs; AMD's Fab 30 in Dresden is the only facility AMD has prepared for dual core production."
Sigh, Kris... could you try any harder to make it sound like AMD is struggling with dual-core chip production?
Of course Intel is going to have more fabs producing dual-core chips: they have more fabs, period. Fab30 is THE chip production facility for AMD: Fab 25 is used for flash memory production, and Fab 36 hasn't yet entered production.
The fact that AMD is only producing X2s out of Fab30 is NO SURPRISE AT ALL, and I can't for the life of me figure out why you even mentioned it other than to try to put AMD down.
Just one of the many little sentences in this article that are subtly pro-Intel when they shouldn't be.
At $163 and $263 respectively the 3400+ and 3700+ S754 models aren't too badly priced for users that have an older 280+ A64 of which I suspect there are still a decent number.
2.4GHz/512K or 2.4Ghz/1MB provides a reasoably respectable upgrade over a 1.8GHz/512K 2800+, at those priced I'm not sure you gain much by jumping to a similarly performing S939 processor and motherboard given the extra cost.
For low end A64 S754 users that want something faster, unless they need the absolute highest single core performance (A64 FX/A64 4000+) or DualCore they may as well grab a 3400/3700+ S754 and use that to tide them over until Socket M2 hits... though that would require replacing the DRAM as well, but eventually they'd have to do that regardless.
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Chef Brian - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
The review was a little down on the P-M. The reviews I've seen show that a 2ghz dothan is about the equivalent of an athlon 3700+ -, so yes the price-performance isnt much better than an Athlon. I will seriously consider a Yonah when they're released...Pentium M's rule. Best CPU architecture ever!
Zebo - Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - link
Even at the so-called high price thier charging the forum is full of them.. at least 40. Same at xtreme. same at techreport. Guess how many Pentium dually I've seen at anandtech? Zero. I wonder why? Could it be the cheapest 4200 out performs the $1100 840EE?
WTF?
Furen - Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - link
I think they meant that no one would use the argument "AMD has the weaker dual core".Furen - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
#22 I dont think anyone said anything negative about the pentium M but since I'm just skimming through the post so I might have missed it.They are the best gaming cpus clock-for-clock, but perform slower at pretty much everything else. Also, a 2GHz dothan costs about the same as a 2.4Ghz San Diego, which it will, most certainly, not outperform at ANYTHING.
Yonah sounds great, though.
Chef Brian - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
Pentium M weak my ass...clock for clock it's the fastest gaming processor, period.KristopherKubicki - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
KeithDust2000: I agree with Furen. We don't know when the 3800+ will show up and what the actual price might be. If it shows up in the channel in September, the D820 might be $50 cheaper (as will 945P boards no doubt). It's not really worth speculating about until the chips hit the channel in my opinion.Kristopher
Furen - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
"So compare $605 for AMD versus $375 for Intel; it comes to about 1.6. I would still think the D820 has the advantage although I would be very interested in seeing the new AMD chip in a couple weeks."He's comparing the currently available X2 chips to the currently available PDs ($515 for an X2 4200 and 90 bucks for an NForce4 mobo). The X2 3800 is not available right now and who knows what the price and availability will be at launch...
KeithDust2000 - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
@ Kristopher:P-D 820 + board= 241+130=371
A64 X2 3800+ = 345+90=435
I´d say that´s pretty close, and if you already have
S939... Anyway, you also get a much better product. That´s 2x3200+ instead of 2x2.8Ghz, und the additional power savings, the architectural benefits...
Your $605 number makes no sense, or what am I missing?
KeithDust2000 - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
@ Jarred Walton:From another thread, but what exactly makes you think that Conroe and Merom will hold the performance lead in their respective segments for "quite a while"?
@ Kristofer:
The Athlon 64 X2 3800+ @ $345 (street prices tend to be lower than list) may not be the cheapest chip on the block, but it should imho be the best
price/performance chip on the market.
With it, AMD has basically the Pentium D 830, 840
and EE covered (in terms of price) - and that despite Anand´s earlier
insistence that X2 would may not be available at all this year, or very late this year, at retail. It should also have the Pentium
D 820 covered for those that already own a S939 board. Not bad at all for the little manufacturer.
BTW, die size of the part amounts to 147mm^2, which is the same size as Newcastle. AMD should be able to make quite a few of those should the need arise.
KeithDust2000 - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
Hi!KristopherKubicki - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
coomar: The motherboard costs are a little more negligable than I first originally thought. You can get a 945P board for about $130.http://labs.anandtech.com/search.php?q=945p&pr...
An nForce4 Ultra Socket 939 board runs about $90 (unless you love Biostar).
http://labs.anandtech.com/search.php?q=nforce4%20u...
So compare $605 for AMD versus $375 for Intel; it comes to about 1.6. I would still think the D820 has the advantage although I would be very interested in seeing the new AMD chip in a couple weeks. Let's just hope they ship near launch time so that we won't be waiting as pricing on the D820/D840 and X2 chips plummets.
Kristopher
coomar - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
the difference between the x2 coming in august and the lowest pentium-D is 345/240 or 1.4, factor in that the pentium needs a more expensive motherboard than the x2 and that drops down to 15-30% more, which is reasonablewe can ignore ram prices, ddr and ddr2 are pretty much equal
boban10 - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
The problem with Pentium D is power consuption. And nobody mentioned how much you need to pay more energy bill with those cpus....PrinceGaz - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
I'm getting nothing at all showing up in the lists of prices, except for maybe one or two parts every page or two. For instance on the AMD Desktop page, all I see isAMD Athlon 64 (754) 3400+ 512KB Newcastle CDW 319.76 9.99 329.75 +158.03 Check Prices
there are no S939 parts in the upper table, and thats all that it finds for S754.
KristopherKubicki - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
sprockkets: I don't know if you've used an Intel CPU lately... they basically mount the thing on the motherboard with plastic anchors. Then again, they've done that since the original Pentium if you really think about it!Kristopher
KristopherKubicki - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
JGunther: AMD's fab 30 is hardly a high production fab (it's barely more than a foundry) and yes, the entire facility isn't even dedicated to X2/Opteron A6 production. Meanwhile all of Intel's fabs are doing dual core production...Let's be honest, Intel doesn't have a chance on the technology front here. No doubt about it, AMD has Intel licked as far as tech goes. Unfortunately, they can't seem to make it on the cheap like they did the Barton series.
Throw me a sub $300 A64 dual core chip (even a Sempron) and I am sure it will do circles around the D820. Unfortunately, AMD isn't even close to something like that right now. Maybe 01'06.
Kristopher
JarredWalton - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
5 - the point is that there's a reason Pentium D can cost quite a lot less than the X2. You can love AMD all you want, but the simple fact of life is that Intel is way ahead in production capabilities, and that leads to the higher prices. Even the upcoming X2 won't change that too much. It will still cost over 50% more than the 820 I think, and is it 50% faster?I want to try to get some OC tests done with some of these chips, particularly the Turion/Mobile Athlon parts. We'll see....
ElJefe - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
OH, I have to add to the Ext. Edition post:a 3700 754 socket outperforms that in gaming.
lol. check it out.... across the board.... lol. wtf intel?
i know the EE of course does video really well, but er, yeah. what a minute % of computing time is devoted to video compression..... and that cant wait another minute....
ElJefe - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
Ya know, I can't understand the high level dual core intels, the low end, they sound neat for certain uses and business things def. so.However, I would rather eat glass in truth than buy any intel besides a Dothan 2.1ghz, which is more money than it should be.
amd just has a retarded freakin way to explain their cores and chips.
I dont personally think that the Toledo 4400 is going to drop anytime until january by any noticable degree. They have the market cornered on the best dual cores, and well, for 600 dollars I can get myself a sick proc and also feel dumb that I spent that much.
i wonder if M2 is going to be anything. it must have something up it's sleeve. as it stands now it doesnt offer a blessed thing.
sprockkets - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
The intel dual core processor is nice, well, doesn't that thing run very hot?Well anyway, can you elaborate as to what you mean by Intel being a "plastic monstrosity"?
What is cool is that the new boxed amd processors come in a green tray that feels like styrofoam but says it's really made out of paper.
ryanv12 - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
#5 - you sound extremely pro-AMD with that statement, and you probably are.I didn't detect any subtle pro-intel remarks in this article at all. If you notice, Kris recommends against a Prescott processor. I'm afraid I don't see the bias here...
JGunther - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
"Intel is currently pumping out dual core processors in all of their fabs; AMD's Fab 30 in Dresden is the only facility AMD has prepared for dual core production."Sigh, Kris... could you try any harder to make it sound like AMD is struggling with dual-core chip production?
Of course Intel is going to have more fabs producing dual-core chips: they have more fabs, period. Fab30 is THE chip production facility for AMD: Fab 25 is used for flash memory production, and Fab 36 hasn't yet entered production.
The fact that AMD is only producing X2s out of Fab30 is NO SURPRISE AT ALL, and I can't for the life of me figure out why you even mentioned it other than to try to put AMD down.
Just one of the many little sentences in this article that are subtly pro-Intel when they shouldn't be.
KristopherKubicki - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
Sorry about that Rand. The tables are generated on keywords and apparently I didnt have the right keywords for the XE chips. It should show up now.Kristopher
Rand - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
I'd be mildly interested to see the results of the P4 580 relative to the 3.73GHz EE should it ever pass through your hands.Speaking of the P4 EE. any reason why you didn't list it despite listing it's direct competitor in the A64 FX?
Rand - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
At $163 and $263 respectively the 3400+ and 3700+ S754 models aren't too badly priced for users that have an older 280+ A64 of which I suspect there are still a decent number.2.4GHz/512K or 2.4Ghz/1MB provides a reasoably respectable upgrade over a 1.8GHz/512K 2800+, at those priced I'm not sure you gain much by jumping to a similarly performing S939 processor and motherboard given the extra cost.
For low end A64 S754 users that want something faster, unless they need the absolute highest single core performance (A64 FX/A64 4000+) or DualCore they may as well grab a 3400/3700+ S754 and use that to tide them over until Socket M2 hits... though that would require replacing the DRAM as well, but eventually they'd have to do that regardless.
vitamalt - Sunday, July 24, 2005 - link
And my next upgrade will be? Who knows, gonna see how all this pans out after the "budget' X2 arrives.