It is hard for them to do an Apples-to-apples comparison between Windows and MacOS. Maybe they'll figure something out, but don't expect to see the whole suite.
Not worth it when they priced themselves out of reach to more people than ever compared to previous gen MacBook Pros. It's stupendously amazing but the price point is cost prohibitive and will turn this into a niche product.
Actually, at this performance level it's going to be much cheaper than the PC competition. Look at thin & light gaming notebooks with 3.5lb 14" form factor, 4x Radeon 5600M performance, 10 cores, 64GB DDR5, and an HDR display. You won't find one under $1999 that's for sure.
Yes those are niche products in the PC marketplace, but that's because PC users are accustomed to buying bargain-basement hardware. Mac users have been paying PC enthusiast pricing for decades, so this is spot on for Apple's target market.
The current MBP lineup starts at $1299. I checked a bunch of years and the lowest historical MSRP I can find was $1099 in '07 for the original 2006-model 13". That works out to $1455 in today's dollars. I don't think any MBP has ever sold for less than the current 13" model. The new midrange and high-end M1-powered 14" and 16" models are also priced much like they've always been. After fifteen years, I think the market is pretty well used to the typical MBP prices.
compared to the laptops tested against these look downright reasonable yes they are expensive but there is nothing more efficient, and powerful as these new chips. it's kind of how the 13 pro is, The best screen I think so far besides foldable, the best chip ever in a smartphone, the best materials for premium build quality while plastic and aluminum is fine stainless steel and glass do just feel better
It's close to identical option level for option level to the 2019 MBP 16 launch price. Not by any means cheap, but not stratospheric like the Mac Pro either. Mortals _can_ buy these, just not very often. Otherwise there are the Air models which are quite reasonable and pretty performant now.
I'm not so sure about that. People (me included!) said the same about the iPhone when it hit $999 and, well, now there are $1200+ iPhones. The question is more about what you're getting for the money, and you simply can't get this balance of performance, efficiency, portability and high-grade display hardware anywhere at all on the PC side of the fence. It's impressive.
Ah, yes, because patents are always used, especially within a given timeframe after filing, and aren't just things that tech companies use to bludgeon each other with.
Nothing in AMD's Rembrandt or that newly rumored Raphael-H 16-core APU should particularly be able to challenge this. Certainly not in the graphics department. So... no.
I don't think so regardless of how quick these new macs are I'm would not be giving up all of my software and hardware to join the apple closed wall eco system. If you are already in it then sure, but I think there are more people outside than in.
Ah yes... the vaunted openness of Windows 11 — with its long list of perfectly adequate hardware being denied support and DX which is intentionally a walled garden.
Microsoft Windows was once different from the Apple Macintosh experience but the former has transformed its ecosystem to mimic the latter’s. The only difference is that the hardware you’ll be forced to prematurely abandon can have more vendor names on it.
Ah yes, the company that dropped support for anything pre 2015 (Macbook Pro 2014 and older cannot run Monterey), but somehow W10 still supporting even older hardware and still having supports till end of 2025 magically is an issue.
Note W11 supports all devices post 2017 about as well, anything pre that is getting at least 8 years of OS support vs Apple dropping 2014 devices in 2021 (not even 7 years).
Apple typically updates the latest 3 versions of Mac OS. So Catalina is still getting updates and is expected to last till next summer. It runs on machines as old as 2012. Software security patches, assuming you use the latest possible OS, typically last for 9-10 years past the hardware intro date. On that I cannot complain. It's not as if the features suddenly stop working.
You can't even display a GPU overlay with M1 Macs. Can't even find out your FPS on a system wide level. Let's not compare Windows to Mac OS for openness.
Security patches should not be allowed by government oversight to force people tp abandon perfectly adequate machines.
This is not how it was prior to the necessity of the Internet in everyday life.
Regulators are captured, clueless, have no power, or one or more of those in combination.
I know many retired and limited-income people who have been forced to replace perfectly-performant Macs because of Apple’s security patch scam. Some had been upgraded to SSDs and 16 GB of RAM — double the RAM of many non-upgradable M1 ‘upgrades’.
Now Microsoft is pulling the same trick with Windows 11. One company was rewarded with a $1 trillion valuation and the other was recently. Policy that is friendly to consumers and the planet is clearly not part of that obscene money agenda.
The passivity of consumers is extremely pathetic. I am waiting for vehicles that will only be supported for road travel for a period of six years — brought to you by Apple then quickly copied by MS.
Blither about how automated driving requires vehicle software that hasn’t been ‘deprecated’ — with ‘old’ (seven massive years! — an absolute etermity) vehicles conveniently having everything soldered-down and non-upgradable.
The upgrade will be to the amount you owe to the finance industry.
They're beating "high end PC laptop graphics" with a massive die on a smaller node, it's definitely not as interesting once you see past the marketing BS. But I still want one, I think.
Jaw dropped at the transistor count on the M1 Max... double the RTX 3090 lol. If close to half the M1 Max SoC area is dedicated to GPU then one might estimate it uses a similar # of transistors for graphics as the fastest desktop GPU.
Not even close. It all depends on what you do with your computer.
If all you do is use your machine for web-browsing and media consumption, a powerful Chromebook will serve you better. For those of us who want a do-it-all and want to play video games, Windows remains king.
If you use you rmachine only for coding/creativity or use it as a office laptop, Apple can be used.
Running different binaries is not a valid test. Testing with different binary means testing the software, not the hardware. Anandtech's GPU and CPU review test with same OS, API and drivers to test the the hardware. For what you asked the Macbook either need to run Windows with DirectX or other machine need to run MacOS and both 2 of those are not possible. And don't forget "Optimization" (Cheating when done on Windows or Android Machine), judging how Apple is bragging.
Not when they priced themselves out of reach compared to previous gen MacBook Pros. It's amazing but the price point is cost prohibitive and will turn this into a niche product.
Stand what? That Apple price gouges on hardware with niche uses and isnt as flexible in most situations, theres nothing to defend. Its great if what you want to do is only what is supported by Apple, but as soon as you step outside of those bounds they will give you no support, and actively discourage you from doing it since they cant control it. No thanks. It doesn't matter how much of an improvement it is if they will never sell it to anyone else or allow others to use their hardware in ways they didn't foresee, and you still have to buy into the ecosystem anyway if you weren't already in it. It was a stupid comment that deserved a stupid answer, but remember, "think different".
That slower, inferior hardware can run Steam and my favorite AAA games. The day I can do that on a Macbook is the day I'll switch, not before. Having a 32 core GPU is worthless if I can't use it.
Nah, because I'll still be able to do what I want with my computer vs being stuck with whatever Apple lets me do, oh and i can still likely add more ram or change out a disk if it fails without replacing the entire thing, you know, simple things like that.
god you're incredible. If a Mac ever does what I want it to (run my software, not cost a whole lot more than the alternative) I'll use one. Why wouldn't I? Attaching part of my identity to a massive company that doesn't give a shit about me is not something I care to do. Right now, Macs do not do what I would need to for me to buy one. I do wish the laptops that do could come close to matching Apple's performance per watt etc. I've got no problem admitting they have an incredible chip here. Again, why would I? Bottom line: if Apple met peoples needs we'd see them with a lot larger market share. If they are or become manifestly superior (not discounting certain aspects like affordability) they'll be a lot more ubiquitous. Until then what's the point of all your fanboying? Why play cheerleader for a company? Get a fucking grip
You're missing the power segment qualifier, the has to run Rosalyn for pretty much all my work stuff with most of it not actually being able to run on MacOS (since Net Framework stuff still exist everywhere as a C# dev...).
That's without the premium price tag taken into account or that we're right around the corner for both Intel and AMD launching their new products which will probably be quite competitive.
You didn't notice the massive price increases? Macbook Pros used to start at $1300, now they have a fake old one running an iPad CPU, and the actual Macbook Pro starts at $2000. So you have to compare with Windows laptops that start at $2000. And btw, you have to pay $1150 CAD plus tax to upgrade that GPU to the 24 core model (never mind the 32 core one), so basically you are starting at $3000 USD for the GPU capable Macbook Pro.
Let's do fair comparisons when Alder Lake and the next gen GPUs are out. $3000 laptop comparisons.
Nothing wrong with the M1 MBP. It's cheap, ya get what you pay for, and let's not call it a tablet CPU, as it runs full desktop apps. Supports 1 external monitor up to 6k.
9 years ago I ordered a MBP for $2300. It supports 2 external displays at 2560 x 1600, in addition to its built-in 2880 x 1800. Had I gone for the cheaper version it would have been 1 external display at the same res. /shrug
1. Screen that shatters if people put tape over the webcam, a sticker on the case opposite the screen, or a piece of paper between the screen and case opposite.
2. Non-upgradable RAM.
3. Operating system with a clear history of inadequate security patch support duration.
I should say, nothing wrong with the *price* of the M1 MBP. It's appropriately priced for the functionality based on historical precedent. It's still a precision crafted device like Macbooks of the last 5+ years. Can't mistreat it like a plastic shell that is more forgiving through creaks and gaps. It still takes some force to crack that screen. I hadn't heard of the sticker-on-the-back complaint. Not sure what they were doing. I can hold my M1 Air upside down with everything but 1 inch cantilevered and it holds up; why would an exterior sticker involve much force at all?
I think the sticker thing is probably a lot like "bendgate" - a little sprinkle of truth mixed in with a bunch of hysteria. I'd not be surprised if the quest for ever-thinner devices has increased fragility, but I have my doubts that nothing more than adding a sticker can crack the screen.
Its a well documented phenomenon with those laptops unfortunately, basically they made the tolerances too tight and small amount of debris can cause the display to crack because theres no space for the force from the debris to go, and the display is the weakest link. Also because the display is apparently weakly supported by its hinge system, meaning it can receive torque stresses that the display can not survive in regular use. So long as they dont pull an apple and ignore it for 4 years at a time, they should have it ironed out by the next update of the hardware. Basically basic QA engineering they ignored, or didnt test for, or didnt care about because its still likely only a small percentage of users it hits, Although id bet that when tested over a set period of time those faults become far more likely after the end of the hardware support period, which they really wouldn't care about because you'd be forced to buy a new unit at that point, since its basically a shiny irreparable tablet.
Yeah, tolerances are tight, and the non-Gorilla glass runs to 1-2 mm from the edge (staring at my Air). But they're still reasonable tolerances for a premium product. There's over 0.2mm of black rubber around the edge preventing the screen from contacting the palm rest. I suppose with prices near $1000 comes folks who treat it like a cheap item. A common failure mode for glass is microscopic fracturing that propagates to full cracks through the stresses of normal usage. The discovery of the crack can be quite removed from the initial trigger, whether it be factory handling or a small rock over 0.2mm before slamming the lid.
Placing tape or a sticker over a webcam is not user error. It should be expected behaviour.
Old folks often put a sticky note on their machine as well. Sticky notes causing screens to shatter is an engineering failure. It has nothing to do with this ‘premium experience, ridiculous expectations’ excuse attempt.
AFAIK no one knows with the old M1 either, but SVT-AV1 has gotten to within 50% as fast/performant in same power envelope for decode in software, so seems to not matter much. you'll probably have to use safari though.
57B transistors is a whopping big die, 2x of the ~30B in the 3090 even. Most of those transistors are likely for GPU and caches, but interestingly absolute GPU performance is pegged be worse than a 3090. It sounds like they still engineered this thing with a power and package size envelope as 400GB/s shared between CPU/GPU is about half that of 3090 at 936GB/s.
Not that large! Maybe 450 mm^2. If Apple manage redundancy properly, there is no real reason their costs (from TSMC) are much more than 4x the cost of an A15.
As for the 3090 comparison, you are making the same mistake people made when the sneered at the M1. The M1 was not a chip to go head to head against an Intel or AMD highest end desktop; it was a chip designed for the lowest end (MBA, mac mini). This is, likewise, not a chip going up against the highest end; this is a chip designed for the mid-range -- today the MacBook Pros, probably at some point for a mid-range iMac and mini Pro.
It's a stunning chip. AND YET remember this is not the workstation (iMac Pro or Mac Pro) product, this is "just" the mid-range product...
My point is, the extra transistors seemed to have been sensibly spent improving GPU power efficiency; they could have tried for a 100W power budget but Apple doesn't tend to make boutique, thigh crushing gaming laptops with 2 hour battery life. I'm looking forward to what they might do for a desktop Mac Pro...
Transistor count cannot be directly compared, since we don’t know how each company counts transistors - not all transistors are created equal. Anyway, looking at what Apple showed, the GPU might be less than half of the die, and this is a Laptop SoC, not the true Desktop SoC that should come out next year. According to Apple numbers it could be somewhat close to the top laptop discreet GPU, though have some doubts.
I suspect the GPU will be better in some ways and worse in others. Raw performance should at least be near the best laptop GPUs. Huge efficiency due to shared memory though. Also, per the demo, this should make it more capable for jobs requiring large textures, etc.
Agree, it should be close or better in some jobs, but not so close in others. It will definitely be far more power efficient, which can be a plus for many people.
Because it can run full speed without a power cable ... and a much nicer screen ... better sound ... best sound system ... best track pad ....Magsafe ...
in a 3.5lbs form factor ... and doesn't sound like a jet engine.
It makes more sense to compare with other mobile devices. f you pick out a well-built laptop with a high-end display and an RTX 3080 you'll be looking around the $3000 CAD mark, and it'll need to be connected to a ~200W power brick to do its job.
Depends on your workload, somethings dont translate to OSX, as a general usage machine then your budget and preferences come into play. Some people will never buy a Mac no matter what, likewise some people will never buy a Windows machine, some people play games in which case id be surprised if the compatibility is great for most games out there, for most its the price, need, and availability that will matter most.
Apple doesn't really have a significant gaming market. That's one area where Windows machines have always been a better choice. Aside from that, especially for the creative markets where this device is targeted, these new Macs look like a great choice.
Not really. It is missing a significant amount of codec support. ProRes actually is worse than HEVC, never mind AV1. NVIDIA has the strangle hold on the CGI market and this will just be drool-worthy to the small pros that don't make it big. Those who make it big will settle on Quadro since that is the industry-standard, not Cr-Apple.
Hah I agree, a matter energy converter with every device? Sold. Maybe it just shoots it out from a mini wormhole generator, im still down for that hah. I wonder how long until someone roots that for access to other items :D.
This skepticism is growing tiresome. We saw it at the A7 intro, at very subsequent iPhone, at the M1 intro. Every one of which validated Apple’s claims.
At some point, this is not reasonable skepticism, it is a willful refusal to face reality…
Why? You should never take someone at their word with important decisions or purchases regardless of their track record, its a nice way to get screwed over, always do your research.
It's a legit 16:10 screen with 74 additional vertical pixels on either side of camera. Looks like it only sustains a menu bar. MacOS isn't really locked down, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone offered the option to black out the bar entirely. 14.2": 3024 x 1964 True 16x10: 3024 x 1890 16.2": 3456 x 2234 True 16x10: 3456 x 2160
The notch is optional, as the 3456x2234 resolution is greater than 16:10 aspect ratio. There were several full screen apps being demoed that were below the notch with no intrusion. All they did was give you MORE pixels up top if you want the menu bar to be higher. That space used to be pitch black, so now it's lit if you want to use it. Very sane choice actually.
So they are claiming this processor is faster than i7 11800H ? big claims. And notch in a laptop ? Awful disaster. Everything is soldered thanks to their "Save the planet".
Not really a big claim, given how handily M1 outperformed 4-core TL.
Notch looks stupid but it looks like they've actually given slightly more display over and above the previous 16:10 ratio, so it can be viewed as a gain.
The RAM per dollar numbers on these laptops are horrifying. And so many developers are leaning into 64 GB configurations when possible -- think of all the GPU transistors that'll be wasted just to get 64 GB SKUs. Pretty disgusting stuff in the middle of a silicon fabrication shortage.
This is NOT ddr4 RAM. This is running DDR5 RAM, and is the first customer machine in the world to run DDR5. You're paying for that first-user advantage.
Mid-range DDR4 for desktops seems to run at about $5/GB for 2 x 16GB. But go up to 2 x 32GB, and suddenly it's around $10/GB especially on the high end.
The M1 Max runs extremely fast extremely specialist RAM that is a generation faster than DDR4, and the 64GB is concentrated down into only 4 on-chip RAM modules. Getting that at only $12.50/GB for the extra 32GB is a bit of a bargain, especially compared to previous Apple overcharging for bog-standard mass-market SODIMMs.
Sorry to say, but that isn't actually right. Its LPDDR5, which has been in phones for over a year come this point, so they really are charging through the nose for it. It's probably how they keep the power numbers on the M1Max so low. But you are paying Apple tax, not early adopter taxes.
I accept your point re phones which to most intents and purposes are now general purpose machines. But how many phones come with 64GB LPDDR5?
What's the current max LPDDR5 available on a phone? A bit of googleing tells me 12GB is the likely max. So this is over 500% of the current max on a phone. And likely at a far faster speed too.
Does any other desktop or laptop even come with any quantity of DDR5 / LPDDR5 at all?
So yes I think this is an early adopter tax. And rather reasonably priced compared to previous Apple RAM rip-off prices.
You can compare the anandtech SPEC2017 numbers for either A15 (single threaded) or M1 (to het a feel for how multithreaded scales) against AMD and Intel right now. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
In all fairness, the numbers were so vague that it doesn't matter which generation they compare it to. Newer generations i9 would indeed fair somewhat better, but that's not even the point of the comparison. It's all about performance per watt. It's about these devices being significantly faster (and they are) while also being able to run flat out and not destroying battery life and having a fan spin up like a jet engine. It's about these devices being able to run flat out on battery and not requiring to be plugged in for that level of performance. That's what these machines are about.
No it's 11800H it's a Tiger Lake processor but crippled hard, 48W is long power limit and 70W is short limit Tau. It will downclock heavily. And the GPU performance is more interesting as it's around 1080GTX which was done on TSMC 16nm from 4 years, since this is on TSMC 5nm it's kinda expected when Apple is pouring millions of dollars into TSMC and their ARM design teams.
Once Nvidia, Intel and AMD hit 5nm designs this will be left in dust also since it's a Mac OS and a BGA soldered machine it's inferior from the get go.
Is it me or are those cpu graphs showing slow intel cpus? And yesterday pat said he wants to win apple back with building a better chip lolol good luck with that
Does the screen shatter if you use a sticker for information on the body opposite it, a piece of paper manages to get between, or one puts a piece of tape over the camera?
All of that is reportedly a bonus of choosing the 13” M1 Macbook Pro.
Yes, the 2019 16" Fully loaded MacBook Pro was referenced as a comparison computer multiple times.
Mine is the fully configured 2.4Ghz 8 Core Intel Core I9, 64 Gb of 2667 Mhz DDR4 memory, AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of VRam and a 8TB SSD that listed for over $6,600. The new 16" fully loaded is actually $600 cheaper at $6,099.
So the performance increase of the M1 Max machine is multiple times the 2019 model and actually costs less.
Interesting stuff. Great screen, but not sure about how the notch looks. Great SoC, but not keen on everything being soldered. Great GPU power at the high end, but I only ever use a GPU for gaming... I feel like these are great devices for a certain type of user, it's just that user isn't me.
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lemurbutton - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Intel & AMD are about to be severely embarrassed.lemurbutton - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Anandtech, please include Macs in your benchmarks for future reviews. People do choose between Macs and Windows.Rudde - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
It is hard for them to do an Apples-to-apples comparison between Windows and MacOS. Maybe they'll figure something out, but don't expect to see the whole suite.Hifihedgehog - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Not worth it when they priced themselves out of reach to more people than ever compared to previous gen MacBook Pros. It's stupendously amazing but the price point is cost prohibitive and will turn this into a niche product.linuxgeex - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Actually, at this performance level it's going to be much cheaper than the PC competition. Look at thin & light gaming notebooks with 3.5lb 14" form factor, 4x Radeon 5600M performance, 10 cores, 64GB DDR5, and an HDR display. You won't find one under $1999 that's for sure.Yes those are niche products in the PC marketplace, but that's because PC users are accustomed to buying bargain-basement hardware. Mac users have been paying PC enthusiast pricing for decades, so this is spot on for Apple's target market.
ceomrman - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
The current MBP lineup starts at $1299. I checked a bunch of years and the lowest historical MSRP I can find was $1099 in '07 for the original 2006-model 13". That works out to $1455 in today's dollars. I don't think any MBP has ever sold for less than the current 13" model. The new midrange and high-end M1-powered 14" and 16" models are also priced much like they've always been. After fifteen years, I think the market is pretty well used to the typical MBP prices.Linustechtips12 - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
compared to the laptops tested against these look downright reasonable yes they are expensive but there is nothing more efficient, and powerful as these new chips. it's kind of how the 13 pro is, The best screen I think so far besides foldable, the best chip ever in a smartphone, the best materials for premium build quality while plastic and aluminum is fine stainless steel and glass do just feel betterABR - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
It's close to identical option level for option level to the 2019 MBP 16 launch price. Not by any means cheap, but not stratospheric like the Mac Pro either. Mortals _can_ buy these, just not very often. Otherwise there are the Air models which are quite reasonable and pretty performant now.Spunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
I'm not so sure about that. People (me included!) said the same about the iPhone when it hit $999 and, well, now there are $1200+ iPhones. The question is more about what you're getting for the money, and you simply can't get this balance of performance, efficiency, portability and high-grade display hardware anywhere at all on the PC side of the fence. It's impressive.mdriftmeyer - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
If you read up on patents you know AMD will be leading, not embarrassed in the next year.lemurbutton - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Tiger Lake is already beating AMD in laptops.artk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
You act as though companies stand still and dont work on new products.Hifihedgehog - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
LOL. Nope.Spunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
If by "beating" you mean "not significantly outperforming at a higher cost" then sureIII-V - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Ah, yes, because patents are always used, especially within a given timeframe after filing, and aren't just things that tech companies use to bludgeon each other with.nandnandnand - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Nothing in AMD's Rembrandt or that newly rumored Raphael-H 16-core APU should particularly be able to challenge this. Certainly not in the graphics department. So... no.web2dot0 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Where's AMD's 3080 equivalent at 60W (system power) my guy? LOL .... don't get butthurt.Zingam - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
NV buys ARM - game over.Makaveli - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
I don't think so regardless of how quick these new macs are I'm would not be giving up all of my software and hardware to join the apple closed wall eco system. If you are already in it then sure, but I think there are more people outside than in.Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Ah yes... the vaunted openness of Windows 11 — with its long list of perfectly adequate hardware being denied support and DX which is intentionally a walled garden.Microsoft Windows was once different from the Apple Macintosh experience but the former has transformed its ecosystem to mimic the latter’s. The only difference is that the hardware you’ll be forced to prematurely abandon can have more vendor names on it.
RSAUser - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Ah yes, the company that dropped support for anything pre 2015 (Macbook Pro 2014 and older cannot run Monterey), but somehow W10 still supporting even older hardware and still having supports till end of 2025 magically is an issue.Note W11 supports all devices post 2017 about as well, anything pre that is getting at least 8 years of OS support vs Apple dropping 2014 devices in 2021 (not even 7 years).
Wrs - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Apple typically updates the latest 3 versions of Mac OS. So Catalina is still getting updates and is expected to last till next summer. It runs on machines as old as 2012. Software security patches, assuming you use the latest possible OS, typically last for 9-10 years past the hardware intro date. On that I cannot complain. It's not as if the features suddenly stop working.Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Windows 10? Get with the programme.This isn’t that MS. This is the new-and-improved, Apple-mimicking, version.
Alistair - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
You can't even display a GPU overlay with M1 Macs. Can't even find out your FPS on a system wide level. Let's not compare Windows to Mac OS for openness.Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Security patches should not be allowed by government oversight to force people tp abandon perfectly adequate machines.This is not how it was prior to the necessity of the Internet in everyday life.
Regulators are captured, clueless, have no power, or one or more of those in combination.
I know many retired and limited-income people who have been forced to replace perfectly-performant Macs because of Apple’s security patch scam. Some had been upgraded to SSDs and 16 GB of RAM — double the RAM of many non-upgradable M1 ‘upgrades’.
Now Microsoft is pulling the same trick with Windows 11. One company was rewarded with a $1 trillion valuation and the other was recently. Policy that is friendly to consumers and the planet is clearly not part of that obscene money agenda.
The passivity of consumers is extremely pathetic. I am waiting for vehicles that will only be supported for road travel for a period of six years — brought to you by Apple then quickly copied by MS.
The excuse-makers will be there, as always.
Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
They’ll use safety to do it, too.Blither about how automated driving requires vehicle software that hasn’t been ‘deprecated’ — with ‘old’ (seven massive years! — an absolute etermity) vehicles conveniently having everything soldered-down and non-upgradable.
The upgrade will be to the amount you owe to the finance industry.
Spunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
You could just not update your system to Windows 11, you know? That's an option.You could also use Rufus to bypass the requirements and install it anyway.
Oxford Guy - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
‘You could just not update your system to Windows 11, you know? That's an option.’Yes, it’s 1986 again. No Internet.
MS is going to stop providing security fixes for 10.
Jorgp2 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Doesn't really matter when these are only on macs.And Apple tends to compare to the newest Intel CPUs in their products, not the actual newest ones they offer.
Duwelon - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
They're beating "high end PC laptop graphics" with a massive die on a smaller node, it's definitely not as interesting once you see past the marketing BS. But I still want one, I think.Wrs - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Jaw dropped at the transistor count on the M1 Max... double the RTX 3090 lol. If close to half the M1 Max SoC area is dedicated to GPU then one might estimate it uses a similar # of transistors for graphics as the fastest desktop GPU.Ppietra - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
looking at the die photos the GPU should be close to 40% of the die area.blanarahul - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Not even close. It all depends on what you do with your computer.If all you do is use your machine for web-browsing and media consumption, a powerful Chromebook will serve you better. For those of us who want a do-it-all and want to play video games, Windows remains king.
If you use you rmachine only for coding/creativity or use it as a office laptop, Apple can be used.
It all depends on what you do with your computer.
Geranium - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Running different binaries is not a valid test. Testing with different binary means testing the software, not the hardware. Anandtech's GPU and CPU review test with same OS, API and drivers to test the the hardware. For what you asked the Macbook either need to run Windows with DirectX or other machine need to run MacOS and both 2 of those are not possible. And don't forget "Optimization" (Cheating when done on Windows or Android Machine), judging how Apple is bragging.Hifihedgehog - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Not when they priced themselves out of reach compared to previous gen MacBook Pros. It's amazing but the price point is cost prohibitive and will turn this into a niche product.web2dot0 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Like how people made fun of Apple when their came out with AirPods .... LOL ...Prepared to eat your words ....
Zoolook - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
In what way ? Apple is using a superior process, they should have the best performance.Zoolook - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Disregard above comment, it ended up in the wrong place due to some archaic workings of Anandtech comment-system.lemurbutton - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
After today, anyone who spends money on a Windows laptop will be buying slower, inferior hardware.Apple laptops will give you much more value for the money.
artk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Fanboy it up yoweb2dot0 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Too bad you don't have a valid rebuttal. Don't get butthurt and call people names because you can't stand it.artk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Stand what? That Apple price gouges on hardware with niche uses and isnt as flexible in most situations, theres nothing to defend. Its great if what you want to do is only what is supported by Apple, but as soon as you step outside of those bounds they will give you no support, and actively discourage you from doing it since they cant control it. No thanks. It doesn't matter how much of an improvement it is if they will never sell it to anyone else or allow others to use their hardware in ways they didn't foresee, and you still have to buy into the ecosystem anyway if you weren't already in it. It was a stupid comment that deserved a stupid answer, but remember, "think different".eek2121 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Curious as to why you think that. Macs can’t run 90% of the software out there. That makes them not just inferior, but useless for many.noone2 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Yeah, but 90% of people use mainly the same 1% of software out there. I use all the same software on my Mac as I did on my PC.blanarahul - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
That slower, inferior hardware can run Steam and my favorite AAA games. The day I can do that on a Macbook is the day I'll switch, not before. Having a 32 core GPU is worthless if I can't use it.web2dot0 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Steam is being ported to Apple Silicon my guy.This is only ONE step towards total domination. Imagine M3 Max .... you'll be crying to your mom.
artk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Nah, because I'll still be able to do what I want with my computer vs being stuck with whatever Apple lets me do, oh and i can still likely add more ram or change out a disk if it fails without replacing the entire thing, you know, simple things like that.MamiyaOtaru - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
god you're incredible. If a Mac ever does what I want it to (run my software, not cost a whole lot more than the alternative) I'll use one. Why wouldn't I? Attaching part of my identity to a massive company that doesn't give a shit about me is not something I care to do. Right now, Macs do not do what I would need to for me to buy one. I do wish the laptops that do could come close to matching Apple's performance per watt etc. I've got no problem admitting they have an incredible chip here. Again, why would I? Bottom line: if Apple met peoples needs we'd see them with a lot larger market share. If they are or become manifestly superior (not discounting certain aspects like affordability) they'll be a lot more ubiquitous. Until then what's the point of all your fanboying? Why play cheerleader for a company? Get a fucking gripRSAUser - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
You're missing the power segment qualifier, the has to run Rosalyn for pretty much all my work stuff with most of it not actually being able to run on MacOS (since Net Framework stuff still exist everywhere as a C# dev...).That's without the premium price tag taken into account or that we're right around the corner for both Intel and AMD launching their new products which will probably be quite competitive.
Alistair - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
You didn't notice the massive price increases? Macbook Pros used to start at $1300, now they have a fake old one running an iPad CPU, and the actual Macbook Pro starts at $2000. So you have to compare with Windows laptops that start at $2000. And btw, you have to pay $1150 CAD plus tax to upgrade that GPU to the 24 core model (never mind the 32 core one), so basically you are starting at $3000 USD for the GPU capable Macbook Pro.Let's do fair comparisons when Alder Lake and the next gen GPUs are out. $3000 laptop comparisons.
web2dot0 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
You want to do a power usage comparison and system speed on battery?You know PC will get embarassed. BADLY. Deep down, you know it's true.
Wrs - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Nothing wrong with the M1 MBP. It's cheap, ya get what you pay for, and let's not call it a tablet CPU, as it runs full desktop apps. Supports 1 external monitor up to 6k.9 years ago I ordered a MBP for $2300. It supports 2 external displays at 2560 x 1600, in addition to its built-in 2880 x 1800. Had I gone for the cheaper version it would have been 1 external display at the same res. /shrug
Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
1. Screen that shatters if people put tape over the webcam, a sticker on the case opposite the screen, or a piece of paper between the screen and case opposite.2. Non-upgradable RAM.
3. Operating system with a clear history of inadequate security patch support duration.
4. Overpriced SSDs.
Wrs - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
I should say, nothing wrong with the *price* of the M1 MBP. It's appropriately priced for the functionality based on historical precedent. It's still a precision crafted device like Macbooks of the last 5+ years. Can't mistreat it like a plastic shell that is more forgiving through creaks and gaps. It still takes some force to crack that screen. I hadn't heard of the sticker-on-the-back complaint. Not sure what they were doing. I can hold my M1 Air upside down with everything but 1 inch cantilevered and it holds up; why would an exterior sticker involve much force at all?Spunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
I think the sticker thing is probably a lot like "bendgate" - a little sprinkle of truth mixed in with a bunch of hysteria. I'd not be surprised if the quest for ever-thinner devices has increased fragility, but I have my doubts that nothing more than adding a sticker can crack the screen.artk2219 - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Its a well documented phenomenon with those laptops unfortunately, basically they made the tolerances too tight and small amount of debris can cause the display to crack because theres no space for the force from the debris to go, and the display is the weakest link. Also because the display is apparently weakly supported by its hinge system, meaning it can receive torque stresses that the display can not survive in regular use. So long as they dont pull an apple and ignore it for 4 years at a time, they should have it ironed out by the next update of the hardware. Basically basic QA engineering they ignored, or didnt test for, or didnt care about because its still likely only a small percentage of users it hits, Although id bet that when tested over a set period of time those faults become far more likely after the end of the hardware support period, which they really wouldn't care about because you'd be forced to buy a new unit at that point, since its basically a shiny irreparable tablet.https://9to5mac.com/2021/07/30/m1-macbook-screen-c...
Wrs - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Yeah, tolerances are tight, and the non-Gorilla glass runs to 1-2 mm from the edge (staring at my Air). But they're still reasonable tolerances for a premium product. There's over 0.2mm of black rubber around the edge preventing the screen from contacting the palm rest. I suppose with prices near $1000 comes folks who treat it like a cheap item. A common failure mode for glass is microscopic fracturing that propagates to full cracks through the stresses of normal usage. The discovery of the crack can be quite removed from the initial trigger, whether it be factory handling or a small rock over 0.2mm before slamming the lid.Oxford Guy - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Placing tape or a sticker over a webcam is not user error. It should be expected behaviour.Old folks often put a sticky note on their machine as well. Sticky notes causing screens to shatter is an engineering failure. It has nothing to do with this ‘premium experience, ridiculous expectations’ excuse attempt.
Even a piece of paper is enough. That’s insanity.
Speedfriend - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Looks like the story that Apple Music has been losing customers might be true. They have resorted to copying Amazon...Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
5. Soldered-down SSDs.Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Posting via phone with large fingers... always a delight. That post was intended to continue the list above.Zingam - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
AV1 dec/enc no?nandnandnand - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Doesn't look like it.RSAUser - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
AFAIK no one knows with the old M1 either, but SVT-AV1 has gotten to within 50% as fast/performant in same power envelope for decode in software, so seems to not matter much. you'll probably have to use safari though.Raqia - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
57B transistors is a whopping big die, 2x of the ~30B in the 3090 even. Most of those transistors are likely for GPU and caches, but interestingly absolute GPU performance is pegged be worse than a 3090. It sounds like they still engineered this thing with a power and package size envelope as 400GB/s shared between CPU/GPU is about half that of 3090 at 936GB/s.Zingam - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
This GPU has a CPU and thunderbolt and io and nn engine...Zingam - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
This vs PS5? Raytracing?name99 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Not that large! Maybe 450 mm^2. If Apple manage redundancy properly, there is no real reason their costs (from TSMC) are much more than 4x the cost of an A15.As for the 3090 comparison, you are making the same mistake people made when the sneered at the M1. The M1 was not a chip to go head to head against an Intel or AMD highest end desktop; it was a chip designed for the lowest end (MBA, mac mini).
This is, likewise, not a chip going up against the highest end; this is a chip designed for the mid-range -- today the MacBook Pros, probably at some point for a mid-range iMac and mini Pro.
It's a stunning chip. AND YET remember this is not the workstation (iMac Pro or Mac Pro) product, this is "just" the mid-range product...
Raqia - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
My point is, the extra transistors seemed to have been sensibly spent improving GPU power efficiency; they could have tried for a 100W power budget but Apple doesn't tend to make boutique, thigh crushing gaming laptops with 2 hour battery life. I'm looking forward to what they might do for a desktop Mac Pro...Ppietra - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Transistor count cannot be directly compared, since we don’t know how each company counts transistors - not all transistors are created equal.Anyway, looking at what Apple showed, the GPU might be less than half of the die, and this is a Laptop SoC, not the true Desktop SoC that should come out next year. According to Apple numbers it could be somewhat close to the top laptop discreet GPU, though have some doubts.
techconc - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
I suspect the GPU will be better in some ways and worse in others. Raw performance should at least be near the best laptop GPUs. Huge efficiency due to shared memory though. Also, per the demo, this should make it more capable for jobs requiring large textures, etc.Ppietra - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Agree, it should be close or better in some jobs, but not so close in others.It will definitely be far more power efficient, which can be a plus for many people.
GC2:CS - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
M1 Pro die looks preciselly like a M1 MAX die with half the GPU and memory interface cut off.Even if volume is not high 50 + billion transistors does not come cheap.
Alistair - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
M1 MAX starts at $3900 CAD plus tax... so yeah, Apple is charging more than double what a 5950X and RTX 3080 cost for that SoC.web2dot0 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Because it can run full speed without a power cable ... and a much nicer screen ... better sound ... best sound system ... best track pad ....Magsafe ...in a 3.5lbs form factor ... and doesn't sound like a jet engine.
ktest1000 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Sorry? You're comparing the CPU / GPU costs with those of the whole laptop?Spunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
It makes more sense to compare with other mobile devices. f you pick out a well-built laptop with a high-end display and an RTX 3080 you'll be looking around the $3000 CAD mark, and it'll need to be connected to a ~200W power brick to do its job.zeeBomb - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Well damn. I’d be damned to buy a windows laptop now..the performance Is NO JOKEartk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Depends on your workload, somethings dont translate to OSX, as a general usage machine then your budget and preferences come into play. Some people will never buy a Mac no matter what, likewise some people will never buy a Windows machine, some people play games in which case id be surprised if the compatibility is great for most games out there, for most its the price, need, and availability that will matter most.techconc - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Apple doesn't really have a significant gaming market. That's one area where Windows machines have always been a better choice. Aside from that, especially for the creative markets where this device is targeted, these new Macs look like a great choice.Hifihedgehog - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Not really. It is missing a significant amount of codec support. ProRes actually is worse than HEVC, never mind AV1. NVIDIA has the strangle hold on the CGI market and this will just be drool-worthy to the small pros that don't make it big. Those who make it big will settle on Quadro since that is the industry-standard, not Cr-Apple.Ppietra - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Why are you comparing ProRes with HEVC? ProRes is a codec for a different purpose!Teckk - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
But Intel has the best ads to beat the new Mac silicon.ftlbaby - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Exactly.artk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Eh, ill believe it when i see it, Apple can say their products poop out ice cream cones for all it matters, lets see some independent reviews.ftlbaby - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
I would pay for that feature. Especially soft serve.artk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Hah I agree, a matter energy converter with every device? Sold. Maybe it just shoots it out from a mini wormhole generator, im still down for that hah. I wonder how long until someone roots that for access to other items :D.name99 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
This skepticism is growing tiresome. We saw it at the A7 intro, at very subsequent iPhone, at the M1 intro. Every one of which validated Apple’s claims.At some point, this is not reasonable skepticism, it is a willful refusal to face reality…
artk2219 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Why? You should never take someone at their word with important decisions or purchases regardless of their track record, its a nice way to get screwed over, always do your research.elforeign - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Time to upgrade the STILL performing LIKE NEW mid 2017 MB Pro.yeeeeman - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Camera notch on a laptop is just a big joke :))))))))))yeeeeman - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
And the prices....2 grand, damnWrs - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
It's a legit 16:10 screen with 74 additional vertical pixels on either side of camera. Looks like it only sustains a menu bar. MacOS isn't really locked down, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone offered the option to black out the bar entirely.14.2": 3024 x 1964 True 16x10: 3024 x 1890
16.2": 3456 x 2234 True 16x10: 3456 x 2160
Glaurung - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
I was wondering about that. So it's not actually a notched screen so much as a regular screen with some extra space added at the top for the menu bar.name99 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Surprise twist — those extra pixels are a TOUCHBAR!!!DougMcC - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
That blew me away too. Completely insane choice. I was seriously considering buying one until I saw that.Eidigean - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
The notch is optional, as the 3456x2234 resolution is greater than 16:10 aspect ratio. There were several full screen apps being demoed that were below the notch with no intrusion. All they did was give you MORE pixels up top if you want the menu bar to be higher. That space used to be pitch black, so now it's lit if you want to use it. Very sane choice actually.quorm - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Lol, that kickass high dpi, HDR display with a camera notch. Never change, apple.Hifihedgehog - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Courage™willis936 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
No Mac mini? :(Glaurung - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Probably delayed till next year due to the chip shortages. I'd expect it in the spring along with a new large size imac.Silver5urfer - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
So they are claiming this processor is faster than i7 11800H ? big claims. And notch in a laptop ? Awful disaster. Everything is soldered thanks to their "Save the planet".Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Everything is soldered so people can’t actually eliminate incriminating data as well as data that is useful for corporate/government espionage.Oxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Taking a sledgehammer to a machine to erase it tends to draw more attention, versus removing the RAM, battery, and SSD.Ppietra - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
wouldn’t take much to be faster than that processor considering what the M1 was already able to deliverSpunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Not really a big claim, given how handily M1 outperformed 4-core TL.Notch looks stupid but it looks like they've actually given slightly more display over and above the previous 16:10 ratio, so it can be viewed as a gain.
lmcd - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
The RAM per dollar numbers on these laptops are horrifying. And so many developers are leaning into 64 GB configurations when possible -- think of all the GPU transistors that'll be wasted just to get 64 GB SKUs. Pretty disgusting stuff in the middle of a silicon fabrication shortage.Tomatotech - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
This is NOT ddr4 RAM. This is running DDR5 RAM, and is the first customer machine in the world to run DDR5. You're paying for that first-user advantage.Mid-range DDR4 for desktops seems to run at about $5/GB for 2 x 16GB. But go up to 2 x 32GB, and suddenly it's around $10/GB especially on the high end.
The M1 Max runs extremely fast extremely specialist RAM that is a generation faster than DDR4, and the 64GB is concentrated down into only 4 on-chip RAM modules. Getting that at only $12.50/GB for the extra 32GB is a bit of a bargain, especially compared to previous Apple overcharging for bog-standard mass-market SODIMMs.
J_J1996 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Sorry to say, but that isn't actually right. Its LPDDR5, which has been in phones for over a year come this point, so they really are charging through the nose for it. It's probably how they keep the power numbers on the M1Max so low. But you are paying Apple tax, not early adopter taxes.Hifihedgehog - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
This is the correct answer. It's not DDR5. There's no way they would be running DDR5 on that SOC without a battery life penalty.Tomatotech - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
I accept your point re phones which to most intents and purposes are now general purpose machines. But how many phones come with 64GB LPDDR5?What's the current max LPDDR5 available on a phone? A bit of googleing tells me 12GB is the likely max. So this is over 500% of the current max on a phone. And likely at a far faster speed too.
Does any other desktop or laptop even come with any quantity of DDR5 / LPDDR5 at all?
So yes I think this is an early adopter tax. And rather reasonably priced compared to previous Apple RAM rip-off prices.
Spunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
I doubt those people will be buying Macs, then.Speedfriend - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Did Apple compare performance to a 9th generation i9? Please tell me it ain't soname99 - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
You can compare the anandtech SPEC2017 numbers for either A15 (single threaded) or M1 (to het a feel for how multithreaded scales) against AMD and Intel right now. Go ahead, I’ll wait.techconc - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
In all fairness, the numbers were so vague that it doesn't matter which generation they compare it to. Newer generations i9 would indeed fair somewhat better, but that's not even the point of the comparison. It's all about performance per watt. It's about these devices being significantly faster (and they are) while also being able to run flat out and not destroying battery life and having a fan spin up like a jet engine. It's about these devices being able to run flat out on battery and not requiring to be plugged in for that level of performance. That's what these machines are about.Silver5urfer - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
No it's 11800H it's a Tiger Lake processor but crippled hard, 48W is long power limit and 70W is short limit Tau. It will downclock heavily. And the GPU performance is more interesting as it's around 1080GTX which was done on TSMC 16nm from 4 years, since this is on TSMC 5nm it's kinda expected when Apple is pouring millions of dollars into TSMC and their ARM design teams.Once Nvidia, Intel and AMD hit 5nm designs this will be left in dust also since it's a Mac OS and a BGA soldered machine it's inferior from the get go.
Speedfriend - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
No, that is an i7, they compared against an i9 in a 16in MacBook? Which was a 2019 model wasn't it?Ppietra - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
No! Apple doesn’t make any comparison with the previous Intel MacBook ProSpunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
GPU performance is like an RTX 3080 Laptop GPU."Once Nvidia, Intel and AMD hit 5nm designs this will be left in dust"
Doubtful - but they're likely to have higher performance at higher power.
Ppietra - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
they compared with the M1 and with other current windows laptopsshabby - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Is it me or are those cpu graphs showing slow intel cpus? And yesterday pat said he wants to win apple back with building a better chip lolol good luck with thatOxford Guy - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Does the screen shatter if you use a sticker for information on the body opposite it, a piece of paper manages to get between, or one puts a piece of tape over the camera?All of that is reportedly a bonus of choosing the 13” M1 Macbook Pro.
Thou shalt not interfere with camera telemetry!
Tomatotech - Monday, October 18, 2021 - link
Any guesses as to when the first reviews and benchmarks will start coming out? This week? Next week?Switz - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Yes, the 2019 16" Fully loaded MacBook Pro was referenced as a comparison computer multiple times.Mine is the fully configured 2.4Ghz 8 Core Intel Core I9, 64 Gb of 2667 Mhz DDR4 memory, AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of VRam and a 8TB SSD that listed for over $6,600. The new 16" fully loaded is actually $600 cheaper at $6,099.
So the performance increase of the M1 Max machine is multiple times the 2019 model and actually costs less.
Pretty amazing really.
Spunjji - Tuesday, October 19, 2021 - link
Interesting stuff. Great screen, but not sure about how the notch looks. Great SoC, but not keen on everything being soldered. Great GPU power at the high end, but I only ever use a GPU for gaming... I feel like these are great devices for a certain type of user, it's just that user isn't me.