They are going to spend $400M on a plan to sell 60K systems? $400M / 60K = $6.7K seems to me they need to sell 50 times as many systems for it to make any kind of financial sense especially if the $400M is just the development costs after which they are going to have to pay a foundry to produce it.
And includes R&D. But having the bonus that they are no longer reliant on technology sourced from their adversaries is probably priceless from Russia's perspective. This eliminates an avenue for spying but mainly it helps avoid Huawei like situations where the US leverages any kind of "spying concerns" to limit access to such critical technology. Nobody can have superpower aspirations while still being reliant on tech from other adversarial superpower.
And how trustworthy is Linux? The OpenBSD team doesn’t have a particularly high opinion of it and there is the issue of Torvalds and others being subject to US oversight, which can include orders from secret courts.
> there is the issue of Torvalds and others being subject to US oversight, > which can include orders from secret courts.
You're confusing two different things. Companies can get orders to hand over records or place a wiretap, via FISA courts. However, it doesn't logically follow that the government can compel a company to backdoor a product.
The FBI famously tried to make Apple unlock an iPhone, which they fought in court. They argued this essentially compelled them to hack their own product, which the government had no legal basis to do. After another security firm approached the FBI with the offer of assistance, the US government dropped the case. Legal experts speculated this was because they expected to lose, since the government really would've liked to set a precedent the other way.
There's also Linux' procedures around code reviews and subsequent merging of patches. This involves numerous people, some of whom you can bet wouldn't play along.
Finally, there's continual static analysis (and other sorts of testing) of Linux sources, by several parties.
So, it's unlikely the US government could push a backdoor into Linux, by force. They'd have a better chance of success trying to hide it in a set of legitimate patches, although even that wouldn't have a terribly high chance of success. And if they did manage to get it in, at least Russia would be able to review the patches for themselves.
The Apple incident was a dog and pony show. Apple products are among the most aggressive spyware products in existence.
The fact that the government concluded it could crack the product was the expected outcome. The point is to both cow the consumer (the savvy ones) and delude the rest into thinking megacorporations and government aren’t synonymous.
It’s the height of hilarity to read comments that take what these entities claim at face value.
@Oxford Guy: "Apple products are among the most aggressive spyware products in existence."
Can you cite sources for that? I'm asking because to my knowledge several cybersecurity experts and quite a few OpenBSD developers use Apple hardware specifically because they believe it to be less likely to spy on them than Android and Windows based devices, as well as much more difficult to compromise by a bad actor.
> Any other gradeschool-quality ad homs to find via your backside?
It's not really an "ad hom", unless you consider "hating Apple" to be a character flaw and not simply a statement of fact.
By declining to counter the statement in any substantive fashion, you've essentially accepted it in the loudest possible terms. I consider the matter closed. Thanks for playing.
Claiming someone who has more than a few IQ points hates a corporation is incredibly asinine for multiple reasons and therefore does not qualify for your claim. Such illogical claims are desperate attempts to evade the point.
If the security researchers cared about security, they'd just flash a custom ROM on their android phone. It's a pretty lame argument to use iPhones "when you are worried about security" cuz Apple collects as much data, just doesn't upload it to their cloud. And they could at any time decide to do so. Took me a week to understand and flash 3 very different phones.
‘I'm asking because to my knowledge several cybersecurity experts and quite a few OpenBSD developers use Apple hardware specifically because they believe it to be less likely to spy on them’
Why would the FBI take Apple to court, in a very high-profile case, if they were simply planning to drop it? That only serves to weaken the FBI's leverage over other cell phone makers.
> delude the rest into thinking megacorporations and government aren’t synonymous.
They aren't. Not least because corporations don't even agree with each other, but also that the system isn't as broken as you'd like to believe.
> height of hilarity to read comments that take what these entities claim at face value.
I know you get more social cred from playing the cynic, but it's also very intellectually lazy.
>There's also Linux' procedures around code reviews and subsequent merging of patches. This involves numerous people, some of whom you can bet wouldn't play along.
Not too long ago some researchers intentionally inserted bugs/security flaws into the linux kernel. led to a big outcry in the linux community against said researches because they should have informed the core developer to avoid the flaws going live into production system. it was called unethical.
Regardless of ethics, it just showed how easy it is to get security flaws into the kernel. If some random researchers can do it, you bet the NSA can as well.
> Not too long ago some researchers intentionally inserted bugs/security > flaws into the linux kernel.
It's a little more complicated than that, but not really. Mainly, what they did was circulate patches for review. They didn't actually get any bugs or backdoors into a mainline kernel.
> led to a big outcry in the linux community against said researches because > they should have informed the core developer to avoid the flaws going live > into production system. it was called unethical.
Again, you're slightly off. What was unethical about the research was experimenting on human subjects without informed consent. That violates the standards of academic research, generally, as well as those of their specific university.
> Regardless of ethics, it just showed how easy it is to get security flaws into the kernel.
Except they didn't, so not really. What it did do was serve as a wake up call for the kernel developers to be more vigilant.
> you bet the NSA can as well.
It probably could, but it violates their mandate. They have a dual mandate both to perform foreign surveillance AND provide protection from foreign adversaries. In the past, they've been criticized for failing to disclose bugs and backdoors they found, since doing so falls short of the second part of their mission.
Most work being done today on BSD including Open BSD is porting parts and sub systems of Linux to it. Sure it allows can be better and BSD developers help both sides among many others. The strengths of Linux is iron hands of people like Greg Kroah-Hartman who supervise patches, changes and approval of their merge, Linux is there for amusement and inspiration. Government and corporate thugs can't get their aspirations there, best they can is push the hipe to turn the tide towards less powerful and there for less secure protection protocols trying to make their work easier but even that won't pass. Even their a worthy helping hand because Linux security and well being suits their needs. For example take SE Linux modules. Only really alternative OS with code of it's own (as I started that most BSD's are more and more being based on the shared one) is DragonFly BSD which follows it's own path. Better to say Math Dylans path and boy it would have been a great path if he didn't hammered it down (enterprise partition system).
Anyone can check the code. If multiple govts already use it in high stake applications, they have probably had the code scrutinized. If there were backdoors, they wouldn't have been hidden for long, with so many eyes to look for them
There's also a fair amount of automated testing and analysis that gets performed on the mainline kernel. It's not just reliance on human eyeballs & brains.
> Custom code. Custom builds. > Running on custom hardware. > None of which is available to the public.
You mean when Russia runs software on this CPU? The question we were trying to answer is how Russia can have faith in Linux.
If you're suddenly shifting to advocate for its end users, among the general public, that's a different question and one we can't yet answer. It depends a lot on whether they're going to do anything to lock down which OS the systems can boot.
And I don't expect the hardware to be backdoored. If you want backdoors, putting them in software that's tied to the hardware via signature requirements is a much more manageable approach. That way, if exploits of your backdoor get out into the wild, you can close it & open a new one, via a simple software update.
Russia actually has a lot of natural resources they didn't cashed in but that's not a big problem and in the end resources worth more. They have much more then nukes including most reliable and advanced space program for example that all others have hard time to complete with including US which still pays for it's cab service. There's only one last standing unicorn and that's advanced IC's. US is actually a handbraking the progres, naturally trying to preserve last monopoly it owns. But anyway any brake on the path of progress is a bad thing. The "supper power" crap is so irrelevant in one world which no one can possess. China is rather pore on some natural resources (quality steel, energy resources, quality rich on others (for instance Lithium). What they have is man resources and social engendering which is more than enough for them not to make educated guess but make sure it happens.
Their space program has been a mess lately and it's not well funded. See all the failed science missions, the hole in the ISS debacle, and other problems with Roscosmos. It was propped up by the U.S. post-1991 to keep Russian engineers from wandering off and building rockets for terror groups. Any ambitious Russian space stuff you hear about will either not happen or will be in close partnership with China.
"most reliable and advanced space program" Uhhh, no. Only if you pretend SpaceX doesn't exist because it's not the US government, but given that NASA paying for launches with SpaceX is cheaper than what both the US and Russian governments can do, it's a moot point.
Russia's main handbrake on their future success is their shitty authoritarian government and the endemic corruption it fosters. It makes the USA look positively democratic, fair and above-board by comparison.
I take that (SpaceX) as still in development and talked about last two decades. But have it your way than, most advanced rocketry program. They shitty authoritarian government actually looks way better than a fosil or bitter fool before it in US. By the way it's democratically elected one and if you think how you actually have more choice in US or for that matter ever had we'll think a bit harder. Any way this is not a place for politics. I doubt US impresses anyone with over 5% inflation right now and doubt it ever will after events from last year related to teach sector and human rights.
Well I belong to a people who never known slavery and never had slaves, were truly free always. When they were brought the democracy as a gift from Romans after 100 years war and explained how now they will be free citizens and have their own slave's they said no thanks. When you have only two choices which doesn't differ much or at all you have a very little choice and that is US democracy election process. US can't deal with it especially not openly if you by that don't mean hashing the media, shouting on protestors and journalists. Besides BLM is just a tip of the iceberg. I really don't want to talk about it but I will if you insist.
In the US, the two-party system is primarily about Presidential elections. There are other viable parties in Congress, state, and local governments. Some candidates even get elected to those offices with no party affiliation.
Protests play a role in raising awareness and getting people involved in the political process. They're nearly always nonviolent, but pandemic-related stresses probably contributed to a small proportion breaking into riots, last year. The amount of rioting was still quite small, but always over-represented by media.
That's interesting, because it gets to the matter around police accountability and use-of-force policies. This is an issue in *many* countries, particularly more authoritarian ones. In the US, these policies are made by democratically-elected lawmakers, who face a lot of pushback from police unions.
Fortunately, some progress has recently been made in this area, but there's still a long way to go. People like easy answers and quick fixes, but meaningful progress usually takes time.
Your joking right? If it whose anyone else than US it would be greated with sanctions, and carpet bomb diplomacy. Thers no country in the world (and never whose) with more rasizam. Nope not just African - American, add Latin - American, Irishman, Muslim, Russian (fear policy) and all others. While at it think of labor camps for Japanese in II WW or Guatanamo Bay, how about Havaii? Nope no other country ever done that. Then think about 100+ wars US had direct military engagement in in last 50 years and how it never barred any consequences for monstrosities done (you name it, they done it all including dozens of genocides). And that's "liberal progressive democracy" who's father also whose a racist and US president. I really didn't want to come to this but told you I won't remain silent.
> Thers no country in the world (and never whose) with more rasizam.
Ever hear the saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"? We should ask some Kosovars and Albanians about racism among Serbians. Last I heard, you guys didn't exactly welcome Syrian refugees, either.
Sure, the US has ethnic tensions, but also a far more diverse racial & ethnic makeup than anywhere else. In spite of that, interracial violence is actually quite low. Most violence is within homogeneous groups. And for all its shortcomings, racial fairness and equity is better than ever before. We did have a black President, and we currently have a black/Indian VP. Let's see any European countries do that.
> labor camps for Japanese in II WW
They weren't labor camps, they were internment camps. That was a long time ago and acknowledged to be a mistake.
> Guatanamo Bay
Yes, it's unfortunate. There are only about 100 detainees remaining. It's been politically difficult to deal with. Obama spent 8 years trying to close it and couldn't get it done.
> how about Havaii?
What about it? It was incorporated when a lot of countries were building their empires. That wouldn't happen today, though.
> Nope no other country ever done that.
Done what, exactly? Pretty much everything bad in the history of the US has happened somewhere else, as well. Even slavery wasn't unique to the US. Again, any nation that's been around long enough is going to have some bad things in its history and blood on its hands.
> I really didn't want to come to this but told you I won't remain silent.
At this point, I don't know what you're even responding to. Seems to me you're just trying to talk trash about the US. You don't have to like it. There's a lot not to like about its foreign policy. You can simply say that, without fabricating or exaggerating other bad things about it.
Truth be told, there are things I don't like about its foreign or domestic policy, as well as the corrupting influence of money on its political system. However much time you spend following and thinking about the politics and policies of the USA, it's not nearly as much as I do. The problems aren't easy ones to fix. Yeah, there are better places than the US, in a lot of ways, but nowhere is perfect.
Kosovo is Serbia, always whose. Thers no such thing as Kosovars nor it ever whose, there are Albanians who don't belong there and Shiptars (Šiptari) which technically are flead pore Albanians back in 50's and 60' that are let to settle there and whole former Yugoslav paid additional taxes in order to help them and provide them a deacent life. They certainly do belong there but it's not their territory by any means. You actively helped ethnical cleansing there (300 to 500K people, Serbs who lived there) did a did a bombing of suverene country without international agreement, used foreign weapons such as dirty depleted Uranium bombs and hit civilian and press taggers. Sirian refugees which are stil in Serbia and balkans and taken care of quite good. Think you herd wrong, it whose us allies who mistreated them and from those Croatians the most. By the way you made refugees out of them (more than anyone else).
They warent labor camps, they were concentration camps (Japanese II World War US camps).
Hawaii are the modern version of it for American citizens who had misfortune to be pore.
No one other ever nuked anyone. So how about Naglasaki? It whose clear that it whose not needed. 65K civilians, women and children gone in the blast, more than 200K died all together (blast and radiation poisoning). How about full scale genocid on Native American Indians? Reduced population to marginal error number of 1% (which now recovered to under 3%). Nope no one ever done that. How about the killing of about 1M of American Irishmans?
You are not an old people (nation, nationhood are modern terms), quite opposite. For a comparison purpose mine can be writtenly set to 1000 B.C. By Roman written sources and 7000 B. C. By archaeological excavations. I am talking facts and you can trash it as much as you like it won't change anything.
Do continue to read and study so me by one day truth can be told. By the way on my language truth and justice are the same thing.
I really don't want to future discus this it will flame on to polemic (Polemos on Greak means war).
For better and worse diversity is much needed thing in the world we live in. Rest is just ideology and utopia. Best regards.
"NASA paying for launches with SpaceX is cheaper than what both the US and Russian governments can do, it's a moot point."
name one rocket that NASA built, in its owned facility? I bet you can't. all of the rockets used by NASA, at least for manned space, were built by the Military Industrial Complex and paid for by the Taxpayer. the only difference between now and then is that Taxpayer money takes a slightly different route.
Depends on how you define "built". There's the component level all the way up to the assembly level. They clearly don't make the components (hilarious story about that leading to the invention of the antistatic bag on the casual suggestion of an engineer's wife), but they do have a huge assembly building that they definitely use. It also depends on how you define NASA. JPL can be argued to be part of NASA or not depending on what argument you're trying to win.
Zolalll, I hope you don't mind, but I'm reading your comments in a thick, stereotypical Russian accent for my amusement. Please feel free to read this in a stereotypical British tea-sipping accent.
Don't matter at all as long as you enjoy it bloke. I hope it didn't sound all that stereotypical as I am not an Russian at all, i am a Serb but culturally close enough. For my amusement I will read yours with typical Scottish accent and trow in some swear and curse hire and there to make it more amusing. Hope that makes you happy. Enjoy and have a pint at my behalf.
OMG. What's your point? If the US government were doing everything, people would cry socialism. If they try to outsource it to the private sector, then they cry "Military Industrial Complex". There's no winning this one.
NASA traditionally does a lot of design work on their craft, even while contracting out a lot of the actual production. It should be more efficient, as long as the bidding process is conducted fairly. And I'd rather have NASA focus on science than manufacturing.
> They have much more then nukes including most reliable and advanced space > program for example that all others have hard time to complete with
Oh, is that why the Chinese stopped partnering with Russia on Mars missions? Russia's record on Mars is abysmal. Russia learned how to shoot things into Earth orbit, and that's about where they ran out of gas.
China has already surpassed Russia's space program.
> including US which still pays for it's cab service.
Hmmm they have first row reserved seats as ever. https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-signs-contract-t... Chaina has gone long way with it's rocketry program but root's of it are as always Russian. Different people different aspirations.
It's nice to have imagination otherwise usually doesn't heart to ask. Tryed to imagine my salf as Nigerian... Known some birds from there.
Don't feed the trolls... "including most reliable and advanced space program" - is either a bot or troll who only believes the RT or possible has not seen or read any basic information in this area in about 20 years....
Keyword: Had Like in every fields where Russia was leading they will fade into irrelevance faster and faster. You can thanks Putin and his plutocrats cronies.
I think it has more to do with IP and an alliance with China. The RISC-V model is amenable to China's methods of control and not so much to the US's methods of control. China can overwhelm the industry organizations and subjugate the companies but they can't get in control of the IP at this point, whereas the companies that own the IP (in ecosystems such as x86 and ARM) are able to be blocked/influenced by the US/UK.
> maybe they want to ensure their cpu's have their custom spying functionality built in?
You don't need a custom CPU for that. Just custom firmware will do. Something equivalent to Secure Boot, which ensures it can only run an OS image with government-mandated backdoors in place.
A government-controlled OS image can also be used to limit which apps can be run, or at least to restrict the capabilities of unsigned apps.
All that comment is saying is that you don't have to build a custom CPU, just to put in your own backdoors. I think there are other reasons they're making a RISC-V CPU, all of which have been raised multiple times by myself and others.
"there are other reasons they're making a RISC-V CPU"
Yes, they don't want a US CPU for various reasons (supposed American backdoors, dislike, wanting to build their own, etc., etc.), and RISC-V being open source makes it even more attractive. For my part, I hope even Intel and AMD take this route.
As mentioned below: this is a strategic initiative for a country, not a profit-seeking initiative from a private company.
Presumably they believe the whole country will benefit from the growth of homegrown semiconductor talent, they will gain some measure of technology independence, and success will allow future R&D to scale more results cheaper in the future.
Of course, the entire world also gains the benefit of a lot of money being dumped into bringing an open-source architecture mainstream.
India did already designate the RISC-V ISA as the national instruction set. It probably makes sense for wide scale modernization projects in big countries, as well as for the space program. Similar arguments could be applied for the Russian adaptation. The extensibility of the ISA should offer the flexibility needed for these widely varied use-cases.
As the article says, most likely GloFo, as they have a 12 nm process and probably more capacity open than TSMC. Or, possibly in China; the PRC is pushing hard for nodes smaller than 14 nm to be made locally, and Russia and China have gotten quite cozy.
FunBunny2, I don't get your point. Sure, Taiwanese companies make things on the mainland, but so do a lot of international companies.
And yes, it's easier to do business across the strait, but remember what I said about "Taiwan agrees with a wink"? Taiwan plays along with China's idea, to a certain extent (such as the whole R.O.C. thing), so as not to make an embarrassment that would potentially force its hand.
to wit: Taiwan corporations that manufacture in China play by Beijing's rules, theirs or the International Community's Higher Standards and the like. until Russia, or the USofA, or... has its own fab, the mechanism for fiddling with the hardware is present. kind of like mail-in votes haven't been shown to be fiddled, but they cooooooould be!
Out of interest on the Videocardz and Hothardware websites there's some spill about Intel making an offer to purchase GlobalFoundaries for 30 billion US dollars!
8 cores, 2GHz on 12nm in 2025??? That is rather unambitious for $400m considering by that time TSMC 2nm should be ready and mobile phones would run at ~4GHz by then.
That was not the point. They just want there own CPU. That 400M for a large country is nothing for an investment like this. Plus I would expect if it goes well for them to make a gen2 version to bring it more current. The first go is probably being made cheaply on an older node on purpose.
I've worked at CPU startups in Silicon Valley, some even with satellite offices in Moscow. Also knew tons of Russians in grad skule at the top CS/ECE universities in America.
This news is so weird, Russia should be capable of building something far, farrrr more ambitious than this. Better to use the ARM ISA if they want something with less porting overhead, but still own the architecture. This is probably a result of a ludicrous brain drain (probably from pissing off their citizens).
> Better to use the ARM ISA if they want something with less porting overhead
You can already run desktop Linux (Fedora, Ubuntu) on them. Tools support is first class. Sure, not as much has been optimized for it as ARM, but that gap should mostly close by the time this thing ships.
Compare this to the EU EPI project. The first HPC RISC-V product will be an accelerator tile, not the main CPU tile, which will still be based on the standard ARM cores even crossing the 2023 line. In this sense, the 2025 goal is ambitious.
They already have Elbrus (a homegrown VLIW that can also run x86 code). $400m is about what you need if you wanted to build a world-class server CPU. I doubt that will happen based on (a) the unambitious specs, and (b) the new yacht need to be paid somehow. This is Russia after all.
Have you been to Russia, have you embrace their people, do you understand the culture? Do you read literature, are you able to stay focus for 2 seconds when watching a subtitled movie?
If you're some burger munching, shooting from the hip Americano, you can be forgiven, no one should be demonised for their evolutionary challenged DNA.
look at the data. it's a Shithole Country with a handful of rich and a lot of poor. just like any failed narco state south of the USofA. they only thing they have that the global trade wants is petro in its various forms. they invaded Ukraine simply to get back the farm production they'd relied on during the USSR days; otherwise, Putin can't even feed his people.
"its per capita GDP is 78th. However, the "USofA" is barely "even in the Global Top 10", being 10th."
national Anything and Per Capita Anything are inconsistent measures, esp. any income/wealth measure. it has to do with the nasty right skew in the mean (Per Capita) of financial metrics; i.e. the mean of such metrics is higher (more Positive) and portrays the underlying population as "better off" than the vast majority of the population experiences. that's why honest econ types always use Median for such measures. in terms of comparing countries, only the national GDP is what matters, since the entity under consideration is the capability of the country; gross inequality of income/wealth doesn't matter at that level. I, for one, would prefer that not be true, but it is. Russia is still a Shithole country.
The reason I went for per-capita GDP is that using the gross figure to justify such a classification doesn't account for the fact that there are smaller, better-run countries that are definitely not "shithole countries" (at least, not by my or many people's definition).
If your point is that it has outsized influence, then gross GDP is a reasonable metric. However, the term "shithole country" evokes matters of governance and quality of life, where GDP is only relevant in a per-capita sense. I agree that median income is generally more informative, but I was trying to tie it to your GDP comment.
> no one from Norway wants to be a USofA immigrant, > just the downtrodden from Shithole countries.
Norway is a good case in point. They rank 33rd in gross GDP, while Russia ranks 11th. Yet, you seem to agree that Norway is no shithole.
"Norway is a good case in point. They rank 33rd in gross GDP, while Russia ranks 11th. Yet, you seem to agree that Norway is no shithole."
again, the difference is in intent of the measure. Norway couldn't (to some delta) build a nuke even if they wanted to, so they're low on the GDP scale. OTOH, if you want to know how the Average Norwegian lives vis-a-vis an Average Rusky, then Per Capita is the appropriate measure. or vis-a-vis the USofA, for that matter.
"The eventual takeover of Hong Kong was expected as soon as the British pulled out. The same is for ‘Taiwan’. Incrementalism always wins."
Beijing just opened a high-speed trainline into Tibet. they've been doing the boa constrictor act in the Himalayas since 1959. the object, of course, is India.
It will probably be good enough for the intended purpose, although 8 cores @ 2 GHz doesn't say much about the performance of the RISC-V cores. SiFive's recently announced P550 RISC-V core will be around Cortex-A75 performance which is decent, but other ones are far weaker. Also, maybe the core counts will go up for the desktop and server versions.
Using an ancient process severely restricts the achievable performance. TSMC 3nm is ~8 times as dense, enabling wider/faster cores, more cores, more cache, higher frequencies - all at much lower power.
You'd hope they have higher goals than matching Cortex-A75. It would be really embarrassing if a 2025-era Raspberry Pi outperformed it...
If it's meant for office laptops, the performance could be more than enough. I guess that 8x Cortex-A75 @ 2 GHz (just for example) would be up to 2.5-3x faster than the Pi4 and that is treated as a legitimate usable desktop replacement by some. I run Pi4 overclocked to 2 GHz (700 Mhz GPU). Lack of consistent GPU acceleration (due to Broadcom weirdness) is probably a bigger issue than the relatively low CPU performance.
GlobalFoundries 12LP+ appears to be a substantial improvement over their previous 12nm node, and AMD is rumored to be making low-end "Monet" quad-core Zen 3 APUs on it around 2022 or 2023. If that exists, I expect it to be more than enough for office tasks, although it will probably be faster than this RISC-V product. If Russia goes with GloFo, they should use 12LP+ if they want it to be decent.
Russia has a history of state-sponsored tech duds, but I think this could be successful or at least good 'nuff while being resistant to foreign spying.
That's quite a low slower than Cortex-A75, so SCR9 might not even match that. Yes, it's likely good enough for a basic laptop. However any cheap Arm board in 2025 will use Cortex-A75 (maybe even Cortex-A76). Matching Cortex-A78, now that would be something.
I would have presumed that the idea is to avoid being vulnerable to a U.S. embargo. But in that case, the processors should not be fabbed at Global Foundries any more than at TSMC; Russia would need to have the chip-making ability itself.
At some point we will reach the end of node scaling, and maybe after that fab costs will decline and all big countries will have their own for national security reasons. One problem is the EUV/high-NA EUV equipment which ASML has a stranglehold on. One possible solution is building 3D chips on older nodes.
it will end-up shuttered just the same (I wouldn't expect the same mainstream support ARM received only after dozens of cheap tweak-able systems were launched)!
With cheap ARM systems already pervasive for a decade, there isn't a lot of room for a similar influx of RISCV tweakers SBCs - not unless the performance improvement is embarrassingly high!
it's hard to see how this 'Russian' processor is any more secure, in Moscow's paranoia, if it's built in a fab not in Russia? doesn't matter what ISA it's based on. what matters is who makes the thing. does anyone think they're smarter enough and possess enough tools to ferret out the vectors?? for myself, no.
as to the notion of space superiority: that lies strictly, and only, in the history of nucular ICBMs betwixt Moscow and USofA. Russia went with fat, crude bombs, which were easier to make, and thus needed big motors, which were easier to scale. the USofA went with lighter, sophisticated bombs, which could be flung with smaller motors. remember: we didn't get *all* of the Nazi rocket men; Russia got at least a fair share.
It could be seen as a stepping stone to future products made on their own fabs, but that is optimstic. China obviously has more resources to make that happen, and it has SMIC, which will eventually catch up to TSMC, Samsung et al. if semiconductor fabrication reaches fundamental limits.
The security doesn't come from the ISA. I'm sure x86 is hurt by its complex ISA, but the choice of RISC-V is surely pragmatic and strategic, chosen based on existing OS/tools support and minimization of foreign dependencies.
We’ve updated our terms. By continuing to use the site and/or by logging into your account, you agree to the Site’s updated Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.
Facebook
Twitter
RSS
131 Comments
Back to Article
ilt24 - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
They are going to spend $400M on a plan to sell 60K systems? $400M / 60K = $6.7K seems to me they need to sell 50 times as many systems for it to make any kind of financial sense especially if the $400M is just the development costs after which they are going to have to pay a foundry to produce it.Desierz - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
They are probably more afraid of US CPUs having 'spying functionality' built in than the price.eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Agree that this is the most likely reason. Also, the 60000 is a minimum number, not the ceiling.at_clucks - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
And includes R&D. But having the bonus that they are no longer reliant on technology sourced from their adversaries is probably priceless from Russia's perspective. This eliminates an avenue for spying but mainly it helps avoid Huawei like situations where the US leverages any kind of "spying concerns" to limit access to such critical technology. Nobody can have superpower aspirations while still being reliant on tech from other adversarial superpower.Wereweeb - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
No one can be independent while reliant on tech from an imperialist or expansionist nation*All in all this is good news for everyone, if it means more development of Linux for RISC-V.
Oxford Guy - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
And how trustworthy is Linux? The OpenBSD team doesn’t have a particularly high opinion of it and there is the issue of Torvalds and others being subject to US oversight, which can include orders from secret courts.mode_13h - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
> there is the issue of Torvalds and others being subject to US oversight,> which can include orders from secret courts.
You're confusing two different things. Companies can get orders to hand over records or place a wiretap, via FISA courts. However, it doesn't logically follow that the government can compel a company to backdoor a product.
The FBI famously tried to make Apple unlock an iPhone, which they fought in court. They argued this essentially compelled them to hack their own product, which the government had no legal basis to do. After another security firm approached the FBI with the offer of assistance, the US government dropped the case. Legal experts speculated this was because they expected to lose, since the government really would've liked to set a precedent the other way.
There's also Linux' procedures around code reviews and subsequent merging of patches. This involves numerous people, some of whom you can bet wouldn't play along.
Finally, there's continual static analysis (and other sorts of testing) of Linux sources, by several parties.
So, it's unlikely the US government could push a backdoor into Linux, by force. They'd have a better chance of success trying to hide it in a set of legitimate patches, although even that wouldn't have a terribly high chance of success. And if they did manage to get it in, at least Russia would be able to review the patches for themselves.
Oxford Guy - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
The Apple incident was a dog and pony show. Apple products are among the most aggressive spyware products in existence.The fact that the government concluded it could crack the product was the expected outcome. The point is to both cow the consumer (the savvy ones) and delude the rest into thinking megacorporations and government aren’t synonymous.
It’s the height of hilarity to read comments that take what these entities claim at face value.
kaidenshi - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
@Oxford Guy:"Apple products are among the most aggressive spyware products in existence."
Can you cite sources for that? I'm asking because to my knowledge several cybersecurity experts and quite a few OpenBSD developers use Apple hardware specifically because they believe it to be less likely to spy on them than Android and Windows based devices, as well as much more difficult to compromise by a bad actor.
mode_13h - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
> Can you cite sources for that?He won't because he can't. He just hates Apple and lashes out at them every time he gets a chance.
I don't like Apple either, but I'm not going to posture and lie just to grind that axe.
ZolaIII - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
H-hmmm time for little soc-art.https://youtu.be/OYecfV3ubP8
In the mean time only thing they freed whose peoples bank accounts.
Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
‘He won't because he can't. He just hates Apple’Any other gradeschool-quality ad homs to find via your backside?
mode_13h - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
> Any other gradeschool-quality ad homs to find via your backside?It's not really an "ad hom", unless you consider "hating Apple" to be a character flaw and not simply a statement of fact.
By declining to counter the statement in any substantive fashion, you've essentially accepted it in the loudest possible terms. I consider the matter closed. Thanks for playing.
GeoffreyA - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
"Any other gradeschool-quality ad homs to find via your backside?"Come on, Oxford Guy, we're better than that.
Oxford Guy - Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - link
Claiming someone who has more than a few IQ points hates a corporation is incredibly asinine for multiple reasons and therefore does not qualify for your claim. Such illogical claims are desperate attempts to evade the point.8lec - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
If the security researchers cared about security, they'd just flash a custom ROM on their android phone. It's a pretty lame argument to use iPhones "when you are worried about security" cuz Apple collects as much data, just doesn't upload it to their cloud. And they could at any time decide to do so. Took me a week to understand and flash 3 very different phones.Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
‘Apple collects as much data, just doesn't upload it to their cloud.’Incorrect.
mode_13h - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
> Incorrect.Wow, such a compelling case. We're all surely impressed with your erudition!
Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
‘I'm asking because to my knowledge several cybersecurity experts and quite a few OpenBSD developers use Apple hardware specifically because they believe it to be less likely to spy on them’They aren’t experts.
Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
‘They aren’t experts.’Love that expert-quality logic, though:
‘I cut off my left arm rather than the right because, being right-handed, I’m less likely to die from the lack of an arm.’
Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
‘Can you cite sources for that?’Yes.
mode_13h - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
> The Apple incident was a dog and pony show.Why would the FBI take Apple to court, in a very high-profile case, if they were simply planning to drop it? That only serves to weaken the FBI's leverage over other cell phone makers.
> delude the rest into thinking megacorporations and government aren’t synonymous.
They aren't. Not least because corporations don't even agree with each other, but also that the system isn't as broken as you'd like to believe.
> height of hilarity to read comments that take what these entities claim at face value.
I know you get more social cred from playing the cynic, but it's also very intellectually lazy.
Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
‘I know you get more social cred from playing the cynic, but it's also very intellectually lazy.’You know very little.
mode_13h - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
> You know very little.Ooo, spoken like a true Illuminati!
Oxford Guy - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
Your posts are so pat and predictable I could write them in my sleep.beginner99 - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
>There's also Linux' procedures around code reviews and subsequent merging of patches. This involves numerous people, some of whom you can bet wouldn't play along.Not too long ago some researchers intentionally inserted bugs/security flaws into the linux kernel. led to a big outcry in the linux community against said researches because they should have informed the core developer to avoid the flaws going live into production system. it was called unethical.
Regardless of ethics, it just showed how easy it is to get security flaws into the kernel. If some random researchers can do it, you bet the NSA can as well.
lmcd - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
It was called unethical and also didn't remotely get off the ground @ beginner (name checks out)mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> Not too long ago some researchers intentionally inserted bugs/security> flaws into the linux kernel.
It's a little more complicated than that, but not really. Mainly, what they did was circulate patches for review. They didn't actually get any bugs or backdoors into a mainline kernel.
> led to a big outcry in the linux community against said researches because
> they should have informed the core developer to avoid the flaws going live
> into production system. it was called unethical.
Again, you're slightly off. What was unethical about the research was experimenting on human subjects without informed consent. That violates the standards of academic research, generally, as well as those of their specific university.
> Regardless of ethics, it just showed how easy it is to get security flaws into the kernel.
Except they didn't, so not really. What it did do was serve as a wake up call for the kernel developers to be more vigilant.
> you bet the NSA can as well.
It probably could, but it violates their mandate. They have a dual mandate both to perform foreign surveillance AND provide protection from foreign adversaries. In the past, they've been criticized for failing to disclose bugs and backdoors they found, since doing so falls short of the second part of their mission.
ZolaIII - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Most work being done today on BSD including Open BSD is porting parts and sub systems of Linux to it. Sure it allows can be better and BSD developers help both sides among many others. The strengths of Linux is iron hands of people like Greg Kroah-Hartman who supervise patches, changes and approval of their merge, Linux is there for amusement and inspiration. Government and corporate thugs can't get their aspirations there, best they can is push the hipe to turn the tide towards less powerful and there for less secure protection protocols trying to make their work easier but even that won't pass. Even their a worthy helping hand because Linux security and well being suits their needs. For example take SE Linux modules. Only really alternative OS with code of it's own (as I started that most BSD's are more and more being based on the shared one) is DragonFly BSD which follows it's own path. Better to say Math Dylans path and boy it would have been a great path if he didn't hammered it down (enterprise partition system).leo_sk - Saturday, July 17, 2021 - link
Anyone can check the code. If multiple govts already use it in high stake applications, they have probably had the code scrutinized. If there were backdoors, they wouldn't have been hidden for long, with so many eyes to look for themmode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> Anyone can check the code.There's also a fair amount of automated testing and analysis that gets performed on the mainline kernel. It's not just reliance on human eyeballs & brains.
Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
Custom code. Custom builds.Running on custom hardware.
None of which is available to the public.
mode_13h - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
> Custom code. Custom builds.> Running on custom hardware.
> None of which is available to the public.
You mean when Russia runs software on this CPU? The question we were trying to answer is how Russia can have faith in Linux.
If you're suddenly shifting to advocate for its end users, among the general public, that's a different question and one we can't yet answer. It depends a lot on whether they're going to do anything to lock down which OS the systems can boot.
And I don't expect the hardware to be backdoored. If you want backdoors, putting them in software that's tied to the hardware via signature requirements is a much more manageable approach. That way, if exploits of your backdoor get out into the wild, you can close it & open a new one, via a simple software update.
Oxford Guy - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
‘You mean when Russia runs software on this CPU?’I am referring to Linux being secure in general, clearly.
Santoval - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Russia neither has the money nor the growth for "superpower aspirations". They just have nukes. China has all three though.ZolaIII - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Russia actually has a lot of natural resources they didn't cashed in but that's not a big problem and in the end resources worth more. They have much more then nukes including most reliable and advanced space program for example that all others have hard time to complete with including US which still pays for it's cab service. There's only one last standing unicorn and that's advanced IC's. US is actually a handbraking the progres, naturally trying to preserve last monopoly it owns. But anyway any brake on the path of progress is a bad thing.The "supper power" crap is so irrelevant in one world which no one can possess. China is rather pore on some natural resources (quality steel, energy resources, quality rich on others (for instance Lithium). What they have is man resources and social engendering which is more than enough for them not to make educated guess but make sure it happens.
nandnandnand - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Their space program has been a mess lately and it's not well funded. See all the failed science missions, the hole in the ISS debacle, and other problems with Roscosmos. It was propped up by the U.S. post-1991 to keep Russian engineers from wandering off and building rockets for terror groups. Any ambitious Russian space stuff you hear about will either not happen or will be in close partnership with China.Spunjji - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
"most reliable and advanced space program"Uhhh, no. Only if you pretend SpaceX doesn't exist because it's not the US government, but given that NASA paying for launches with SpaceX is cheaper than what both the US and Russian governments can do, it's a moot point.
Russia's main handbrake on their future success is their shitty authoritarian government and the endemic corruption it fosters. It makes the USA look positively democratic, fair and above-board by comparison.
ZolaIII - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
I take that (SpaceX) as still in development and talked about last two decades. But have it your way than, most advanced rocketry program.They shitty authoritarian government actually looks way better than a fosil or bitter fool before it in US. By the way it's democratically elected one and if you think how you actually have more choice in US or for that matter ever had we'll think a bit harder. Any way this is not a place for politics. I doubt US impresses anyone with over 5% inflation right now and doubt it ever will after events from last year related to teach sector and human rights.
mode_13h - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
> By the way it's democratically elected oneIt's about as democratic as the old Soviet elections.
> Any way this is not a place for politics.
Then why'd you bring up democracy? Don't try to have it both ways.
> I doubt US impresses anyone with over 5% inflation right now
But macroeconomics is any more relevant? 5% inflation is a blip and related to the pandemic. Let's have another look at it, a year from now.
> doubt it ever will after events from last year related to teach sector and human rights.
By "human rights", presumably you mean BLM? At least the US can deal with these problems openly. That's the only way to make progress.
ZolaIII - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
Well I belong to a people who never known slavery and never had slaves, were truly free always. When they were brought the democracy as a gift from Romans after 100 years war and explained how now they will be free citizens and have their own slave's they said no thanks.When you have only two choices which doesn't differ much or at all you have a very little choice and that is US democracy election process.
US can't deal with it especially not openly if you by that don't mean hashing the media, shouting on protestors and journalists. Besides BLM is just a tip of the iceberg. I really don't want to talk about it but I will if you insist.
mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> When you have only two choicesIn the US, the two-party system is primarily about Presidential elections. There are other viable parties in Congress, state, and local governments. Some candidates even get elected to those offices with no party affiliation.
Protests play a role in raising awareness and getting people involved in the political process. They're nearly always nonviolent, but pandemic-related stresses probably contributed to a small proportion breaking into riots, last year. The amount of rioting was still quite small, but always over-represented by media.
ZolaIII - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
Whose referring to two political parties and not a very different program.Sure thing...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_vio...
Do you need anything else? I will gladly provide.
mode_13h - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
> Sure thing...> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_police_vio...
That's interesting, because it gets to the matter around police accountability and use-of-force policies. This is an issue in *many* countries, particularly more authoritarian ones. In the US, these policies are made by democratically-elected lawmakers, who face a lot of pushback from police unions.
Fortunately, some progress has recently been made in this area, but there's still a long way to go. People like easy answers and quick fixes, but meaningful progress usually takes time.
ZolaIII - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
Your joking right? If it whose anyone else than US it would be greated with sanctions, and carpet bomb diplomacy.Thers no country in the world (and never whose) with more rasizam. Nope not just African - American, add Latin - American, Irishman, Muslim, Russian (fear policy) and all others. While at it think of labor camps for Japanese in II WW or Guatanamo Bay, how about Havaii? Nope no other country ever done that. Then think about 100+ wars US had direct military engagement in in last 50 years and how it never barred any consequences for monstrosities done (you name it, they done it all including dozens of genocides). And that's "liberal progressive democracy" who's father also whose a racist and US president.
I really didn't want to come to this but told you I won't remain silent.
mode_13h - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
> Thers no country in the world (and never whose) with more rasizam.Ever hear the saying "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones"? We should ask some Kosovars and Albanians about racism among Serbians. Last I heard, you guys didn't exactly welcome Syrian refugees, either.
Sure, the US has ethnic tensions, but also a far more diverse racial & ethnic makeup than anywhere else. In spite of that, interracial violence is actually quite low. Most violence is within homogeneous groups. And for all its shortcomings, racial fairness and equity is better than ever before. We did have a black President, and we currently have a black/Indian VP. Let's see any European countries do that.
> labor camps for Japanese in II WW
They weren't labor camps, they were internment camps. That was a long time ago and acknowledged to be a mistake.
> Guatanamo Bay
Yes, it's unfortunate. There are only about 100 detainees remaining. It's been politically difficult to deal with. Obama spent 8 years trying to close it and couldn't get it done.
> how about Havaii?
What about it? It was incorporated when a lot of countries were building their empires. That wouldn't happen today, though.
> Nope no other country ever done that.
Done what, exactly? Pretty much everything bad in the history of the US has happened somewhere else, as well. Even slavery wasn't unique to the US. Again, any nation that's been around long enough is going to have some bad things in its history and blood on its hands.
> I really didn't want to come to this but told you I won't remain silent.
At this point, I don't know what you're even responding to. Seems to me you're just trying to talk trash about the US. You don't have to like it. There's a lot not to like about its foreign policy. You can simply say that, without fabricating or exaggerating other bad things about it.
Truth be told, there are things I don't like about its foreign or domestic policy, as well as the corrupting influence of money on its political system. However much time you spend following and thinking about the politics and policies of the USA, it's not nearly as much as I do. The problems aren't easy ones to fix. Yeah, there are better places than the US, in a lot of ways, but nowhere is perfect.
ZolaIII - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
Kosovo is Serbia, always whose. Thers no such thing as Kosovars nor it ever whose, there are Albanians who don't belong there and Shiptars (Šiptari) which technically are flead pore Albanians back in 50's and 60' that are let to settle there and whole former Yugoslav paid additional taxes in order to help them and provide them a deacent life. They certainly do belong there but it's not their territory by any means. You actively helped ethnical cleansing there (300 to 500K people, Serbs who lived there) did a did a bombing of suverene country without international agreement, used foreign weapons such as dirty depleted Uranium bombs and hit civilian and press taggers.Sirian refugees which are stil in Serbia and balkans and taken care of quite good. Think you herd wrong, it whose us allies who mistreated them and from those Croatians the most. By the way you made refugees out of them (more than anyone else).
They warent labor camps, they were concentration camps (Japanese II World War US camps).
Hawaii are the modern version of it for American citizens who had misfortune to be pore.
No one other ever nuked anyone. So how about Naglasaki? It whose clear that it whose not needed. 65K civilians, women and children gone in the blast, more than 200K died all together (blast and radiation poisoning). How about full scale genocid on Native American Indians? Reduced population to marginal error number of 1% (which now recovered to under 3%). Nope no one ever done that.
How about the killing of about 1M of American Irishmans?
You are not an old people (nation, nationhood are modern terms), quite opposite. For a comparison purpose mine can be writtenly set to 1000 B.C. By Roman written sources and 7000 B. C. By archaeological excavations.
I am talking facts and you can trash it as much as you like it won't change anything.
Do continue to read and study so me by one day truth can be told. By the way on my language truth and justice are the same thing.
I really don't want to future discus this it will flame on to polemic (Polemos on Greak means war).
For better and worse diversity is much needed thing in the world we live in. Rest is just ideology and utopia.
Best regards.
FunBunny2 - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
"NASA paying for launches with SpaceX is cheaper than what both the US and Russian governments can do, it's a moot point."name one rocket that NASA built, in its owned facility? I bet you can't. all of the rockets used by NASA, at least for manned space, were built by the Military Industrial Complex and paid for by the Taxpayer. the only difference between now and then is that Taxpayer money takes a slightly different route.
philehidiot - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Depends on how you define "built". There's the component level all the way up to the assembly level. They clearly don't make the components (hilarious story about that leading to the invention of the antistatic bag on the casual suggestion of an engineer's wife), but they do have a huge assembly building that they definitely use. It also depends on how you define NASA. JPL can be argued to be part of NASA or not depending on what argument you're trying to win.Zolalll, I hope you don't mind, but I'm reading your comments in a thick, stereotypical Russian accent for my amusement. Please feel free to read this in a stereotypical British tea-sipping accent.
ZolaIII - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Don't matter at all as long as you enjoy it bloke. I hope it didn't sound all that stereotypical as I am not an Russian at all, i am a Serb but culturally close enough. For my amusement I will read yours with typical Scottish accent and trow in some swear and curse hire and there to make it more amusing. Hope that makes you happy. Enjoy and have a pint at my behalf.philehidiot - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
For your amusement:Ach, ya wee fannybaw, son of a fud and a fandan!
I'm on pint 3.
ZolaIII - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
And hire is a bit hopefully for yours and others.https://youtu.be/UfuN9HRDVZY
Enjoy the beer and have a nice evening.
mode_13h - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
> i am a SerbWow. And all these years, I imagined you as a Nigerian! That's quite a different image!
mode_13h - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
> Military Industrial ComplexOMG. What's your point? If the US government were doing everything, people would cry socialism. If they try to outsource it to the private sector, then they cry "Military Industrial Complex". There's no winning this one.
NASA traditionally does a lot of design work on their craft, even while contracting out a lot of the actual production. It should be more efficient, as long as the bidding process is conducted fairly. And I'd rather have NASA focus on science than manufacturing.
mode_13h - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
> They have much more then nukes including most reliable and advanced space> program for example that all others have hard time to complete with
Oh, is that why the Chinese stopped partnering with Russia on Mars missions? Russia's record on Mars is abysmal. Russia learned how to shoot things into Earth orbit, and that's about where they ran out of gas.
China has already surpassed Russia's space program.
> including US which still pays for it's cab service.
Not any more. The NASA is now using SpaceX.
ZolaIII - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
Hmmm they have first row reserved seats as ever.https://www.nasa.gov/feature/nasa-signs-contract-t...
Chaina has gone long way with it's rocketry program but root's of it are as always Russian. Different people different aspirations.
It's nice to have imagination otherwise usually doesn't heart to ask. Tryed to imagine my salf as Nigerian... Known some birds from there.
Skeptical123 - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
Don't feed the trolls... "including most reliable and advanced space program" - is either a bot or troll who only believes the RT or possible has not seen or read any basic information in this area in about 20 years....ZolaIII - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
Call it as you wish, it lifted more cargo than all the others together.Dear troll!
Lombo - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
Keyword: HadLike in every fields where Russia was leading they will fade into irrelevance faster and faster. You can thanks Putin and his plutocrats cronies.
Yojimbo - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
I think it has more to do with IP and an alliance with China. The RISC-V model is amenable to China's methods of control and not so much to the US's methods of control. China can overwhelm the industry organizations and subjugate the companies but they can't get in control of the IP at this point, whereas the companies that own the IP (in ecosystems such as x86 and ARM) are able to be blocked/influenced by the US/UK.Oxford Guy - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Not sure why you put that in scare quotes since CPUs are hardly the only known spyware vector.adelio - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Or maybe they want to ensure their cpu's have their custom spying functionality built in?mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> maybe they want to ensure their cpu's have their custom spying functionality built in?You don't need a custom CPU for that. Just custom firmware will do. Something equivalent to Secure Boot, which ensures it can only run an OS image with government-mandated backdoors in place.
A government-controlled OS image can also be used to limit which apps can be run, or at least to restrict the capabilities of unsigned apps.
Oxford Guy - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
Speaking via both sides of the mouth there.mode_13h - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
> Speaking via both sides of the mouth there.What's your point?
All that comment is saying is that you don't have to build a custom CPU, just to put in your own backdoors. I think there are other reasons they're making a RISC-V CPU, all of which have been raised multiple times by myself and others.
GeoffreyA - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
"there are other reasons they're making a RISC-V CPU"Yes, they don't want a US CPU for various reasons (supposed American backdoors, dislike, wanting to build their own, etc., etc.), and RISC-V being open source makes it even more attractive. For my part, I hope even Intel and AMD take this route.
Oxford Guy - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
Humorous how everyone refers to backdoors when there are so many front doors.GeoffreyA - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
Well, the backdoor is the mysterious one, so naturally that draws the human mind.Oxford Guy - Wednesday, July 28, 2021 - link
The front doors are just as mysterious.grant3 - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
As mentioned below: this is a strategic initiative for a country, not a profit-seeking initiative from a private company.Presumably they believe the whole country will benefit from the growth of homegrown semiconductor talent, they will gain some measure of technology independence, and success will allow future R&D to scale more results cheaper in the future.
Of course, the entire world also gains the benefit of a lot of money being dumped into bringing an open-source architecture mainstream.
FreckledTrout - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
"Of course, the entire world also gains the benefit of a lot of money being dumped into bringing an open-source architecture mainstream."
Well it already is pretty mainstream.
Wereweeb - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
So mainstream that Linux is barely running on it.mode_13h - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
> Linux is barely running on it.Linux supported RISC-V for at least 3 years, already:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&a...
TheinsanegamerN - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
Can you show me a single tablet, laptop, or desktop running RISC V? Or phone even?"mainstream" here means something usable by everyday people for computational purposes, not just running a wireless router.
mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> Can you show me a single tablet, laptop, or desktop running RISC V? Or phone even?It's not there yet, but give it time.
grant3 - Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - link
Wat?? Can you name even 3 consumer products which contain a RISC-V processor?TeXWiller - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
India did already designate the RISC-V ISA as the national instruction set. It probably makes sense for wide scale modernization projects in big countries, as well as for the space program. Similar arguments could be applied for the Russian adaptation. The extensibility of the ISA should offer the flexibility needed for these widely varied use-cases.Murloc - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
those are the ones they plan to put into use at those 2 ministries, but clearly the intention is to jump-start a native industry.dwillmore - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Where are they going to get this fabbed?eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
As the article says, most likely GloFo, as they have a 12 nm process and probably more capacity open than TSMC. Or, possibly in China; the PRC is pushing hard for nodes smaller than 14 nm to be made locally, and Russia and China have gotten quite cozy.shabby - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
China already had 5nm...in Taiwan.shabby - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
HasSarahKerrigan - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
The ROC does. The authority administering the mainland does not.Wereweeb - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
ROC is a chinese republic, so saying that China has 5nm is correct.Wereweeb - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Just as it's correct to say that the Stasi was German.mode_13h - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
> saying that China has 5nm is correct.Not in practical terms. Taiwan is a different country, for any practical purposes.
China insists it's theirs, while Taiwan agrees with a wink.
FunBunny2 - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
"Taiwan is a different country, for any practical purposes."remember all those FoxConn workers jumping to their deaths from factories? remember where those factories were? and still are?
mode_13h - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
FunBunny2, I don't get your point. Sure, Taiwanese companies make things on the mainland, but so do a lot of international companies.And yes, it's easier to do business across the strait, but remember what I said about "Taiwan agrees with a wink"? Taiwan plays along with China's idea, to a certain extent (such as the whole R.O.C. thing), so as not to make an embarrassment that would potentially force its hand.
FunBunny2 - Saturday, July 17, 2021 - link
"I don't get your point."to wit: Taiwan corporations that manufacture in China play by Beijing's rules, theirs or the International Community's Higher Standards and the like. until Russia, or the USofA, or... has its own fab, the mechanism for fiddling with the hardware is present. kind of like mail-in votes haven't been shown to be fiddled, but they cooooooould be!
FunBunny2 - Saturday, July 17, 2021 - link
^ not theirs or the...Jasonovich - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
Out of interest on the Videocardz and Hothardware websites there's some spill about Intel making an offer to purchase GlobalFoundaries for 30 billion US dollars!Jasonovich - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
And how does that impact on AMD'a intellectual properties or existing patents with GF if Intel becomes the owner?mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> how does that impact on AMD'a intellectual propertiesAny NDAs that AMD signed with GF will remain in place, and must be respected by Intel.
Wilco1 - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
8 cores, 2GHz on 12nm in 2025??? That is rather unambitious for $400m considering by that time TSMC 2nm should be ready and mobile phones would run at ~4GHz by then.FreckledTrout - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
That was not the point. They just want there own CPU. That 400M for a large country is nothing for an investment like this. Plus I would expect if it goes well for them to make a gen2 version to bring it more current. The first go is probably being made cheaply on an older node on purpose.webdoctors - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
I've worked at CPU startups in Silicon Valley, some even with satellite offices in Moscow. Also knew tons of Russians in grad skule at the top CS/ECE universities in America.This news is so weird, Russia should be capable of building something far, farrrr more ambitious than this. Better to use the ARM ISA if they want something with less porting overhead, but still own the architecture. This is probably a result of a ludicrous brain drain (probably from pissing off their citizens).
mode_13h - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
What a weird troll.mode_13h - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
> Better to use the ARM ISA if they want something with less porting overheadYou can already run desktop Linux (Fedora, Ubuntu) on them. Tools support is first class. Sure, not as much has been optimized for it as ARM, but that gap should mostly close by the time this thing ships.
TeXWiller - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Compare this to the EU EPI project. The first HPC RISC-V product will be an accelerator tile, not the main CPU tile, which will still be based on the standard ARM cores even crossing the 2023 line. In this sense, the 2025 goal is ambitious.Wilco1 - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
They already have Elbrus (a homegrown VLIW that can also run x86 code). $400m is about what you need if you wanted to build a world-class server CPU. I doubt that will happen based on (a) the unambitious specs, and (b) the new yacht need to be paid somehow. This is Russia after all.p1esk - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Knowing Russia, I agree that the outcome of this project will definitely be a couple of new yachts built, not sure about CPUs.shabby - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Da da... gotta fund putty's palaceFunBunny2 - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
" gotta fund putty's palace "make that palaceS
FunBunny2 - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
"400M for a large country "large? its GDP is about 1 10th USofA. not even in the Global Top 10. it's a Shithole Country.
Jasonovich - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
Really?Have you been to Russia, have you embrace their people, do you understand the culture?
Do you read literature, are you able to stay focus for 2 seconds when watching a subtitled movie?
If you're some burger munching, shooting from the hip Americano, you can be forgiven, no one should be demonised for their evolutionary challenged DNA.
FunBunny2 - Saturday, July 17, 2021 - link
look at the data. it's a Shithole Country with a handful of rich and a lot of poor. just like any failed narco state south of the USofA. they only thing they have that the global trade wants is petro in its various forms. they invaded Ukraine simply to get back the farm production they'd relied on during the USSR days; otherwise, Putin can't even feed his people.mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> look at the data.Good point. According to this, its per capita GDP is 78th. However, the "USofA" is barely "even in the Global Top 10", being 10th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...
But the "USofA", doesn't have free healthcare or higher education. If you account for those, they would surely knock it further down the rankings.
FunBunny2 - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
"its per capita GDP is 78th. However, the "USofA" is barely "even in the Global Top 10", being 10th."national Anything and Per Capita Anything are inconsistent measures, esp. any income/wealth measure. it has to do with the nasty right skew in the mean (Per Capita) of financial metrics; i.e. the mean of such metrics is higher (more Positive) and portrays the underlying population as "better off" than the vast majority of the population experiences. that's why honest econ types always use Median for such measures. in terms of comparing countries, only the national GDP is what matters, since the entity under consideration is the capability of the country; gross inequality of income/wealth doesn't matter at that level. I, for one, would prefer that not be true, but it is. Russia is still a Shithole country.
as The Trumpster was told: (nearly) no one from Norway wants to be a USofA immigrant, just the downtrodden from Shithole countries.
here: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immig...
mode_13h - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
The reason I went for per-capita GDP is that using the gross figure to justify such a classification doesn't account for the fact that there are smaller, better-run countries that are definitely not "shithole countries" (at least, not by my or many people's definition).If your point is that it has outsized influence, then gross GDP is a reasonable metric. However, the term "shithole country" evokes matters of governance and quality of life, where GDP is only relevant in a per-capita sense. I agree that median income is generally more informative, but I was trying to tie it to your GDP comment.
> no one from Norway wants to be a USofA immigrant,
> just the downtrodden from Shithole countries.
Norway is a good case in point. They rank 33rd in gross GDP, while Russia ranks 11th. Yet, you seem to agree that Norway is no shithole.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...
GeoffreyA - Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - link
Never been there but I sort of like Russia, and for ever grateful for Tarkovsky's Solaris!FunBunny2 - Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - link
"Norway is a good case in point. They rank 33rd in gross GDP, while Russia ranks 11th. Yet, you seem to agree that Norway is no shithole."again, the difference is in intent of the measure. Norway couldn't (to some delta) build a nuke even if they wanted to, so they're low on the GDP scale. OTOH, if you want to know how the Average Norwegian lives vis-a-vis an Average Rusky, then Per Capita is the appropriate measure. or vis-a-vis the USofA, for that matter.
Oxford Guy - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Tell that to the WTA who lists Hsieh and others as playing for Chinese Taipei. The WTA is not the only one.The eventual takeover of Hong Kong was expected as soon as the British pulled out. The same is for ‘Taiwan’. Incrementalism always wins.
FunBunny2 - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
"The eventual takeover of Hong Kong was expected as soon as the British pulled out. The same is for ‘Taiwan’. Incrementalism always wins."Beijing just opened a high-speed trainline into Tibet. they've been doing the boa constrictor act in the Himalayas since 1959. the object, of course, is India.
nandnandnand - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
It will probably be good enough for the intended purpose, although 8 cores @ 2 GHz doesn't say much about the performance of the RISC-V cores. SiFive's recently announced P550 RISC-V core will be around Cortex-A75 performance which is decent, but other ones are far weaker. Also, maybe the core counts will go up for the desktop and server versions.Wilco1 - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
Using an ancient process severely restricts the achievable performance. TSMC 3nm is ~8 times as dense, enabling wider/faster cores, more cores, more cache, higher frequencies - all at much lower power.You'd hope they have higher goals than matching Cortex-A75. It would be really embarrassing if a 2025-era Raspberry Pi outperformed it...
nandnandnand - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
If it's meant for office laptops, the performance could be more than enough. I guess that 8x Cortex-A75 @ 2 GHz (just for example) would be up to 2.5-3x faster than the Pi4 and that is treated as a legitimate usable desktop replacement by some. I run Pi4 overclocked to 2 GHz (700 Mhz GPU). Lack of consistent GPU acceleration (due to Broadcom weirdness) is probably a bigger issue than the relatively low CPU performance.GlobalFoundries 12LP+ appears to be a substantial improvement over their previous 12nm node, and AMD is rumored to be making low-end "Monet" quad-core Zen 3 APUs on it around 2022 or 2023. If that exists, I expect it to be more than enough for office tasks, although it will probably be faster than this RISC-V product. If Russia goes with GloFo, they should use 12LP+ if they want it to be decent.
Russia has a history of state-sponsored tech duds, but I think this could be successful or at least good 'nuff while being resistant to foreign spying.
Wilco1 - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
It looks like they are going to use Syntacore SCR9 cores: https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/15/yadro_riscv...That clears up a few other things as well, after 12nm they will move to TSMC 6nm, which enables up to 64 cores and up to 3GHz.
The current generation SCR7 (a 2-way OoO core) has about the same IPC as Cortex-A55: https://open-src-soc.org/2021-03/media/slides/3rd-...
That's quite a low slower than Cortex-A75, so SCR9 might not even match that. Yes, it's likely good enough for a basic laptop. However any cheap Arm board in 2025 will use Cortex-A75 (maybe even Cortex-A76). Matching Cortex-A78, now that would be something.
TheinsanegamerN - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
BUT the 12nm+ node is likely very cheap, and a good option for a first gen product.mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
> It would be really embarrassing if a 2025-era Raspberry Pi outperformed it...It's a wish that, by 2025, the Pi can be on 12 nm and have 8 cores. I wouldn't bet on it, but it could happen.
quadibloc - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
I would have presumed that the idea is to avoid being vulnerable to a U.S. embargo. But in that case, the processors should not be fabbed at Global Foundries any more than at TSMC; Russia would need to have the chip-making ability itself.mode_13h - Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - link
Baby steps? Just getting on the path to RISC-V will let them decouple further, in the next iteration.nandnandnand - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
At some point we will reach the end of node scaling, and maybe after that fab costs will decline and all big countries will have their own for national security reasons. One problem is the EUV/high-NA EUV equipment which ASML has a stranglehold on. One possible solution is building 3D chips on older nodes.defaultluser - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
This is going to require a new Linux distro (if they want anyone to take desktop Linux seriously on R5 by 2025)Remember Red Flag Linux (one of the few attempts to make a mainstream MIPS-compatible distro)? I expect the same will happen here!
https://www.theregister.com/2014/02/14/china_shutt...
it will end-up shuttered just the same (I wouldn't expect the same mainstream support ARM received only after dozens of cheap tweak-able systems were launched)!
With cheap ARM systems already pervasive for a decade, there isn't a lot of room for a similar influx of RISCV tweakers SBCs - not unless the performance improvement is embarrassingly high!
FunBunny2 - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
it's hard to see how this 'Russian' processor is any more secure, in Moscow's paranoia, if it's built in a fab not in Russia? doesn't matter what ISA it's based on. what matters is who makes the thing. does anyone think they're smarter enough and possess enough tools to ferret out the vectors?? for myself, no.as to the notion of space superiority: that lies strictly, and only, in the history of nucular ICBMs betwixt Moscow and USofA. Russia went with fat, crude bombs, which were easier to make, and thus needed big motors, which were easier to scale. the USofA went with lighter, sophisticated bombs, which could be flung with smaller motors. remember: we didn't get *all* of the Nazi rocket men; Russia got at least a fair share.
nandnandnand - Thursday, July 15, 2021 - link
It could be seen as a stepping stone to future products made on their own fabs, but that is optimstic. China obviously has more resources to make that happen, and it has SMIC, which will eventually catch up to TSMC, Samsung et al. if semiconductor fabrication reaches fundamental limits.mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
Russia is already well on their way to becoming a client state of China.FunBunny2 - Monday, July 19, 2021 - link
"Russia is already well on their way to becoming a client state of China."Da! but so cruel.
mode_13h - Sunday, July 18, 2021 - link
The security doesn't come from the ISA. I'm sure x86 is hurt by its complex ISA, but the choice of RISC-V is surely pragmatic and strategic, chosen based on existing OS/tools support and minimization of foreign dependencies.TheinsanegamerN - Friday, July 16, 2021 - link
Fantastic News. Hopefully this results in enough work to make RISC-V a viable ARM alternative.Robort Rich - Saturday, July 24, 2021 - link
very informative website. Please do also check out us on https://videostatuswale.com3arn0wl - Tuesday, July 27, 2021 - link
There's something to be said for "Sufficiency".- A generation ago we were all using apps on much smaller OSs, and we seemed to manage happily enough.
- The RPi4 is marketed as sufficient for a desktop experience and, it would seem, generally speaking, to be so.
We get carried on a wave of "more" and "faster" and "whizz bang", when perhaps all that is needed to do a job, is manageable and affordable.
Anyway, I wish them well in the endeavour. I hope it comes to fruition. And I hope it will be capable enough for what they need it to do.