Kind of interested. There's some questions I imagine we just don't know yet. Is the bootloader unlocked, or is it really bolted down to be a single purpose device? I.e could you replace it with Linux.
Realistically it'll be like every other Win/ARM64 device; it's plain EFI, Secure Boot can be disabled, you can boot whatever you want, but the Linux driver situation for Qualcomm hardware is dismal.
QC is not exactly famous for supporting Linux, to say it mildly. But, that leaves an opening for (maybe) Samsung and Mediately; both now have quite capable SoCs that are at minimum equivalent to the (gimped) 7cx. And, AFAIK, both have at least been somewhat supportive, shared drivers etc. A higher end Exynos or Dimensity wouldn't be half bad for Windows on ARM development, if MS would play along. And, if MS is smart, they would; the more SoCs run Windows on ARM, the better for MS
Well let's see and hope Windows for ARM gets more traction and finally a thing.
Microsoft took so long to even implement 64 Bit is is an mebarassement. I have the feeling Microsoft did not manage to execute anything under Nadella - not a single project proper and just lives from great market and takeovers.
In the long run that however is a bad sign and they should change their management.
Supposedly there were legal issues with emulating Intelx64 until recently. I haven't seen anything definitive, however, on why that emulation took so long, or why MS/Quallcomm thought these overpriced devices would be fine without broad x64 software support.
In general, this product is 'better late than never'. Do they have Valve on board, is the real question for consumer adoption. As for corporate adoption, well, their software is all in the Azure cloud, right?
I’ve heard the state of 64-bit on WoA is not great as of May 2021.
With the way Microsoft takes years to cancel something, I can’t help but imagine a post in March 2023, “64-bit emulation has been reimagined and now on the backburner. We have leveraged our learnings that we as a company don’t understand development obstacles and engineering abilities, but we will write press releases years early anyways.”
That's because the x64 translation/emulation is currently only available on insider builds of Windows 10 and he even said it that in the video. It's beta software after all. It'll get better with time, just as the x86 emulation has.
Yes, that’s well-known it’s only in Insider builds. The problem is that it’s been months and months with marginal improvements while being “developed” in the Insider channels (nee rings).
It is beta in May 2021. How much longer will it remain in beta quality? It does take time, but it’s been an eternity.
I expect at least a serious update by BUILD next week, but why should anyone get any hopes up?
WOA has been in development since 2016 and it’s still half-baked. I can’t imagine Apple launching Rosetta 2 without x64 emulation on Day 1.
One of the big differences between Apple and Microsoft is Apple is (expected to be) switching their entire product line to ARM, whereas Microsoft is adding ARM support but not dropping Intel/AMD. Sure I'd like things to go a lot faster too, but their priorities are much different, as is their approach. Apple only has to translate x64 as I understand it (OSX dropped 32-bit app support in 2018), whereas Microsoft has both x86 and x64 to translate. Going with x86 first made sense at the time and enabled support for a huge chunk of the windows app ecosystem. But yeah, now we're seeing developers starting to drop support for 32-bit so its definitely time to get x64 translation.
Given that QC/MS are withholding photos of the back side of the box, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ethernet show up there once MS fully discloses the kit later this week.
Yes, although withholding photos doesn't exactly engender confidence. Showing my ignorance here, but do QC's 7cx SoCs even have hardware-based Ethernet support. Well, if they don't, could always do a Raspberry, and go via USB 3 to Ethernet. Native support would be better, of course.
I also hope those boxes have more than just one or two USB ports.
This is a Qualcomm device and you should not be surprised by the fact that it comes with WiFi as the default (maybe only) networking option.
Also, this is a dev kit. It's supposed to be used to develop software before the final hardware launches. So are you trying to create apps that only work over Ethernet? :)
More about easily working headless. After initial setup, the mac mini was just tossed next to the switch in the server room. Was hoping to do the same thing with this thing.
Let’s hope they found space for another USB port on the left side, lmao.
And Ethernet, display out, and a third USB port for I/O would make this useful.
Silly if it’s a single port. Why skimp on the I/O? Let’s ensure we have a real hardware mouse and keyboard without a dongle: you know, the two input devices used in every Windows application.
Of course, the obvious comparison: it pales next to Apple’s Arm DTK, but let’s assume Qualcomm’s is much cheaper (under $75?),
Apple A12Z processor 16GB memory, 512GB SSD 2 USB-C ports (up to 10 Gbps) 2 USB 3.0 ports (up to 5 Gbps) HDMI 2.0 port 802.11ac Wi-Fi Bluetooth 5.0 Gigabit Ethernet macOS Big Sur developer beta Xcode 12 with support for Universal 2
This device being sold by Microsoft worryingly reinforces the meme that Windows-on-Arm doesn’t exist.
It’s Windows-on-Snapdragon, which is gobsmacking awful lock-in after decades of Wintel.
We need real competition here: at least, we should see Samsung SoCs and Mediatek SoCs. Qualcomm being alone has never served anyone.
If there is too much friction for new vendors and/or preference for Qualcomm in the next five years, then we’ll see another virtual monopoly (e.g., Qualcomm SoCs on WoA devices) and who is ready for 5-10 years of SoC stagnation?
Even Intel would be jealous of Qualcomm’s monopoly here. If Microsoft isn’t opening up, vendors need to barge in soon: momentum is hard to get back.
Well, WoA will run on M1 Macs via parallels. And they is a leaked ARM32 build of Windows 10 that people have loaded on RT devices, which were mostly nVidia SoCs. So technically it's not just Windows on Snapdragon, but I get your point. Hopefully we'll see other SoC vendors join in. I've recall hearing heard rumors of a device with a Samsung SoC hitting later this year...
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melgross - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Looks like a big Apple TV.ikjadoon - Friday, May 28, 2021 - link
Yep.119 mm (W) x 116.6 mm (D) x 35 mm (H)
4.7" (W) x 4.6" (D) x 1.4" (H)
From the specification page: https://www.ecs.com.tw/en/Product/System/QC710/spe...
Ports are also listed now:
1 x USB 2.0 Type-C (PD-Charging)
1 x USB 2.0 Type-A
1 x MicroSD
1 x Micro-SIM card slot type
1 x USB 3.2 Gen1 Type-A
1 x HDMI
1 x LAN(10/100)
No default Wi-Fi, but can be added via PCIe.
mode_13h - Saturday, May 29, 2021 - link
> 1 x LAN(10/100)That's nuts. My PC mobo had gigabit Ethernet in 2005, and even Raspberry Pi got it in v3 rev 2.
My guess is that the chip shortage lead them to use whatever MAC they could source.
tipoo - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Kind of interested. There's some questions I imagine we just don't know yet. Is the bootloader unlocked, or is it really bolted down to be a single purpose device? I.e could you replace it with Linux.SarahKerrigan - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Realistically it'll be like every other Win/ARM64 device; it's plain EFI, Secure Boot can be disabled, you can boot whatever you want, but the Linux driver situation for Qualcomm hardware is dismal.ikjadoon - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
> could you replace it with Linux.I gotta say, reading this comment on what’s meant to be a dev device for WoA is making me chuckle.
Microsoft, do you see how little investment you’ve put in Arm?
mode_13h - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
> could you replace it with Linux.We really need a step up from the Raspberry Pi. I've been waiting to see some cheap mini PCs based on Qualcomm SoCs or maybe one of the others.
eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, May 26, 2021 - link
QC is not exactly famous for supporting Linux, to say it mildly. But, that leaves an opening for (maybe) Samsung and Mediately; both now have quite capable SoCs that are at minimum equivalent to the (gimped) 7cx. And, AFAIK, both have at least been somewhat supportive, shared drivers etc. A higher end Exynos or Dimensity wouldn't be half bad for Windows on ARM development, if MS would play along. And, if MS is smart, they would; the more SoCs run Windows on ARM, the better for MSmode_13h - Thursday, May 27, 2021 - link
Rockchip's RK3588 has some of us excited. They've showed up on SBCs before, and it's a quad-A76 SoC.Matthias B V - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Well let's see and hope Windows for ARM gets more traction and finally a thing.Microsoft took so long to even implement 64 Bit is is an mebarassement. I have the feeling Microsoft did not manage to execute anything under Nadella - not a single project proper and just lives from great market and takeovers.
In the long run that however is a bad sign and they should change their management.
nico_mach - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Supposedly there were legal issues with emulating Intelx64 until recently. I haven't seen anything definitive, however, on why that emulation took so long, or why MS/Quallcomm thought these overpriced devices would be fine without broad x64 software support.In general, this product is 'better late than never'. Do they have Valve on board, is the real question for consumer adoption. As for corporate adoption, well, their software is all in the Azure cloud, right?
eek2121 - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Modern Intel and AMD architectures/instruction sets are heavily patented and are a legal minefield.ikjadoon - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
I’ve heard the state of 64-bit on WoA is not great as of May 2021.With the way Microsoft takes years to cancel something, I can’t help but imagine a post in March 2023, “64-bit emulation has been reimagined and now on the backburner. We have leveraged our learnings that we as a company don’t understand development obstacles and engineering abilities, but we will write press releases years early anyways.”
At 10:20, https://youtu.be/TX9Y8T7hfnY
domboy - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
That's because the x64 translation/emulation is currently only available on insider builds of Windows 10 and he even said it that in the video. It's beta software after all. It'll get better with time, just as the x86 emulation has.ikjadoon - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Yes, that’s well-known it’s only in Insider builds. The problem is that it’s been months and months with marginal improvements while being “developed” in the Insider channels (nee rings).It is beta in May 2021. How much longer will it remain in beta quality? It does take time, but it’s been an eternity.
I expect at least a serious update by BUILD next week, but why should anyone get any hopes up?
WOA has been in development since 2016 and it’s still half-baked. I can’t imagine Apple launching Rosetta 2 without x64 emulation on Day 1.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/13866936/micros...
domboy - Tuesday, May 25, 2021 - link
One of the big differences between Apple and Microsoft is Apple is (expected to be) switching their entire product line to ARM, whereas Microsoft is adding ARM support but not dropping Intel/AMD. Sure I'd like things to go a lot faster too, but their priorities are much different, as is their approach. Apple only has to translate x64 as I understand it (OSX dropped 32-bit app support in 2018), whereas Microsoft has both x86 and x64 to translate. Going with x86 first made sense at the time and enabled support for a huge chunk of the windows app ecosystem. But yeah, now we're seeing developers starting to drop support for 32-bit so its definitely time to get x64 translation.NXTwoThou - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
A dev kit without an ethernet port?Ryan Smith - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Given that QC/MS are withholding photos of the back side of the box, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ethernet show up there once MS fully discloses the kit later this week.eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, May 26, 2021 - link
Yes, although withholding photos doesn't exactly engender confidence.Showing my ignorance here, but do QC's 7cx SoCs even have hardware-based Ethernet support. Well, if they don't, could always do a Raspberry, and go via USB 3 to Ethernet. Native support would be better, of course.
I also hope those boxes have more than just one or two USB ports.
notb - Tuesday, May 25, 2021 - link
This is a Qualcomm device and you should not be surprised by the fact that it comes with WiFi as the default (maybe only) networking option.Also, this is a dev kit. It's supposed to be used to develop software before the final hardware launches. So are you trying to create apps that only work over Ethernet? :)
iphonebestgamephone - Tuesday, May 25, 2021 - link
Ikr! Apple are fools for including it in their devkit!NXTwoThou - Wednesday, May 26, 2021 - link
More about easily working headless. After initial setup, the mac mini was just tossed next to the switch in the server room. Was hoping to do the same thing with this thing.ikjadoon - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Let’s hope they found space for another USB port on the left side, lmao.And Ethernet, display out, and a third USB port for I/O would make this useful.
Silly if it’s a single port. Why skimp on the I/O? Let’s ensure we have a real hardware mouse and keyboard without a dongle: you know, the two input devices used in every Windows application.
Of course, the obvious comparison: it pales next to Apple’s Arm DTK, but let’s assume Qualcomm’s is much cheaper (under $75?),
Apple A12Z processor
16GB memory, 512GB SSD
2 USB-C ports (up to 10 Gbps)
2 USB 3.0 ports (up to 5 Gbps)
HDMI 2.0 port
802.11ac Wi-Fi
Bluetooth 5.0
Gigabit Ethernet
macOS Big Sur developer beta
Xcode 12 with support for Universal 2
ikjadoon - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
This device being sold by Microsoft worryingly reinforces the meme that Windows-on-Arm doesn’t exist.It’s Windows-on-Snapdragon, which is gobsmacking awful lock-in after decades of Wintel.
We need real competition here: at least, we should see Samsung SoCs and Mediatek SoCs. Qualcomm being alone has never served anyone.
If there is too much friction for new vendors and/or preference for Qualcomm in the next five years, then we’ll see another virtual monopoly (e.g., Qualcomm SoCs on WoA devices) and who is ready for 5-10 years of SoC stagnation?
Even Intel would be jealous of Qualcomm’s monopoly here. If Microsoft isn’t opening up, vendors need to barge in soon: momentum is hard to get back.
domboy - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
Well, WoA will run on M1 Macs via parallels. And they is a leaked ARM32 build of Windows 10 that people have loaded on RT devices, which were mostly nVidia SoCs. So technically it's not just Windows on Snapdragon, but I get your point. Hopefully we'll see other SoC vendors join in. I've recall hearing heard rumors of a device with a Samsung SoC hitting later this year...mode_13h - Monday, May 24, 2021 - link
> Windows-on-Arm doesn’t exist.It runs on Raspberry Pi. Not well, but it runs.
domboy - Tuesday, May 25, 2021 - link
> It runs on Raspberry Pi. Not well, but it runs.Oh yeah! I forgot about that one. Case in point.
This is the Samsung Laptop that is rumored to use their own chip: https://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-reportedly-...