I think folks are striving to *segment* individualized markets __ which is good and bad. The good news is that more product should be available; the bad news is the buyer must be 'aware'
With the Ampere mobiles I am look forward to deep dive into AMD/Intel/nVidia with the Radeon RX 6X00M in mobile graphics (pending releases this quarter) ___Make it so, AT!
The industry seems fixated on mobile chips for all segments at the moment, because the smaller dies result in more chips per wafer. The best example of this is all-in-ones and most sub-$500 PC's all have laptop chips in them, especially the Ryzen U series (which is basically desktop class performance in 15w package) and those low-end GPU's with smaller die sizes seemingly the only retail-available video cards.
This is fine and all but it just goes to show everyone seems dependent on TSMC and without competition prices skyrocket.
I bought a new Dell G15 5510 with an RTX 3050ti last week direct from Dell so they are already available. Just waiting for it to arrive from the factory in China.
Notebookcheck have a performance preview based on a mid-TDP model already, and depending on resolution you're looking at performance between the RTX 2060 and the GTX 1660Ti - so it's not exactly a dramatic improvement, but it's not to be sniffed at, either.
The RT performance in Port Royal compared with the RTX 2060 is *hilarious*, though. Truly humiliating stuff. They managed to make something that's even worse than the 2060, which was already fairly useless.
Obviously there's either a driver problem, a testing problem, or a memory capacity limitation. Why would he test Port Royal at 1440p for this GPU, anyway? The laptop prototype he tested on only had a 1080p screen. If you want to drive a 1440p screen you probably want a different GPU, especially if you want to do ray tracing on 1440p, and certainly if you want to do ray tracing on 1440p without DLSS. The test is pretty silly, so it's not surprising that the results are hilarious.
The 2060 is a great GPU. It's certainly not useless. I assume you're confusing what you are looking to buy with the market.
"Obviously there's either a driver problem, a testing problem, or a memory capacity limitation." I wouldn't say the first two are obvious. Problems with memory capacity seem very likely, but I feel like that's a relevant concern to raise about future games with RT effects.
"Why would he test Port Royal at 1440p for this GPU" Port Royal is a 1440p test, so taking results at 1080p wouldn't be comparable to every other result in their database. I'm not sure how much lowering the resolution would help vs. the 2060 - Ampere's performance advantage over Turing increases with resolution. It's a bit of a problem for low-end parts like this one (you can see it in the other results).
"The 2060 is a great GPU. It's certainly not useless." I wasn't clear - the 2060's performance is fine (I have the broadly equivalent RX 5600M), it's the *RTX capabilities* that I was describing as "fairly useless". You have to sacrifice image quality to free up resources for effects that are supposed to improve image quality, and to me that doesn't make any sense. I think they should have limited RTX to the 2070 and above with Turing, and 3060 and above with Ampere.
As it is, Nvidia is pushing low-end users to pay for RTX features they can't really use to provide the illusion of a larger installed user base for RTX. DLSS is a helpful feature for low-end cards even without RT, though, so it's not all bad.
"I wouldn't say the first two are obvious. Problems with memory capacity seem very likely, but I feel like that's a relevant concern to raise about future games with RT effects."
A, B, or C, is true if any of A, B, or C are true. It's not a relevant concern to raise, because in the future one is less likely to use the card for 1440p, not more likely. And we don't know the answer to the question (why is the benchmark so low) so we can't talk as if we did. First it needs to be explored and A, and B need to be ruled out. "I wouldn't say..." is not ruling it out. There's no reason to believe it's not A or B. None at all.
"Port Royal is a 1440p test" Then it's a useless benchmark for this card.
"I wasn't clear - the 2060's performance is fine (I have the broadly equivalent RX 5600M), it's the *RTX capabilities* that I was describing as "fairly useless". You have to sacrifice image quality to free up resources for effects that are supposed to improve image quality, and to me that doesn't make any sense."
That isn't true. You can play with RT and DLSS, especially if you are able to use G-Sync or Freesync, even at 1440p with the 2060. At 1080p the 2060 can lock to 60fps in Control with ultra settings, all ray tracing enabled, using DLSS.
As it is, Nvidia is pushing low-end users to pay for RTX features they can't really use to provide the illusion of a larger installed user base for RTX.
"As it is, Nvidia is pushing low-end users to pay for RTX features they can't really use to provide the illusion of a larger installed user base for RTX."
The evidence clearly says otherwise. It's all catalogued on digital foundry.
"As an added kicker, these are the first xx50 tier products to have ray tracing – and thus qualify for the RTX moniker – so expect to see NVIDIA promoting that aspect rather hard."
Why would they. These are going to end up in scuffed miners data centers, and they don't give a fart about ray tracing because you can't use it to convert coal smoke into ponzi coins.
Not entirely true. Between the image quality sacrifices of upscaling from 720p and the unspectacular frame-rates (e.g. even with DLSS, Minecraft gets 40fps at 1080p with RT), I genuinely don't know why anyone would bother when you could turn off RT and get more consistent performance at 1080p Ultra / 1440p High.
It's a high end modeling/animation thing mostly. ex Pixar movies have been ray traced long before NVidia created a dedicated hardware accelerator for it.
Someone I know who is an independent architect was telling me about this, He spends a lot of time with clients up front trying to give them the best sense of what they're going to get for their dollar. https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/ray-tracin...
AFAIK, there are hardly any right now. Offline ray tracing has uses, but real-time RTX doesn't yet do much outside of games. Some of the hardware would be useful for AI purposes, but Nvidia want to push customers to Quadro for that.
Minecraft doesn't, but RT does - regardless of the game. The RTX 2060 gets ~25-30fps average (dips below 20fps) in Minecraft at 1080p with RTX enabled. DLSS improves that to 40-50fps, which is entirely playable, but the visuals are mushy because the original resolution is so low (720p).
We don't have enough data points to compare reliably yet, but the 3050Ti is giving every indication of being worse than the 2060 at RTX. If your friend doesn't mind low frame-rates and/or it's all they can afford, they'll have a better experience than none at all; I just don't think it makes sense over the faster or cheaper hardware Nvidia could be offering if they weren't squeezing RT features into low-end cards.
"These are going to end up in scuffed miners data centers, and they don't give a fart about ray tracing because you can't use it to convert coal smoke into ponzi coins." While I am of the same opinion wrt ponzi coal, I'm curious about your assertion in this particular case. Are miners getting their hands on the raw laptop GPUs and installing them in custom boards, or are they just using the laptops directly? Or are they shucking the laptops and keeping the mainboards somehow? I realize supplies are tight, and miners are inventive, but that seems like a lot of hoops to jump through. But I haven't been paying close enough attention to know how mobile chips are getting used.
They're bulk buying gaming laptops and using them directly. I've seen other less janky setups where they were setup on shelves/racks instead of scattered across the floor, but this was the first hit from Google.
I'd love to get my hands on a half-height... uh, anything really... with the NVDEC this generation of cards seems to come with. No details here if GA107 includes the same full NVDEC as a desktop 3080 or whatever, but if it does it sure would be nice to have something to replace the GT 1030 :|
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patel21 - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Wow, so now Nvidia launches their low end products along with intels new cpus. How times have changed.Smell This - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
I think folks are striving to *segment* individualized markets __ which is good and bad. The good news is that more product should be available; the bad news is the buyer must be 'aware'
With the Ampere mobiles I am look forward to deep dive into AMD/Intel/nVidia with the Radeon RX 6X00M in mobile graphics (pending releases this quarter)
___Make it so, AT!
chrysrobyn - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
With the GPU shortages, I'd really look hard at this to go in a desktop system. If it were available.Samus - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
The industry seems fixated on mobile chips for all segments at the moment, because the smaller dies result in more chips per wafer. The best example of this is all-in-ones and most sub-$500 PC's all have laptop chips in them, especially the Ryzen U series (which is basically desktop class performance in 15w package) and those low-end GPU's with smaller die sizes seemingly the only retail-available video cards.This is fine and all but it just goes to show everyone seems dependent on TSMC and without competition prices skyrocket.
brookheather - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
I bought a new Dell G15 5510 with an RTX 3050ti last week direct from Dell so they are already available. Just waiting for it to arrive from the factory in China.gijames1225 - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Be curious to see how these bench against he GTX 1650 / Super without DLSS when they come out.Spunjji - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Notebookcheck have a performance preview based on a mid-TDP model already, and depending on resolution you're looking at performance between the RTX 2060 and the GTX 1660Ti - so it's not exactly a dramatic improvement, but it's not to be sniffed at, either.The RT performance in Port Royal compared with the RTX 2060 is *hilarious*, though. Truly humiliating stuff. They managed to make something that's even worse than the 2060, which was already fairly useless.
Yojimbo - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Obviously there's either a driver problem, a testing problem, or a memory capacity limitation. Why would he test Port Royal at 1440p for this GPU, anyway? The laptop prototype he tested on only had a 1080p screen. If you want to drive a 1440p screen you probably want a different GPU, especially if you want to do ray tracing on 1440p, and certainly if you want to do ray tracing on 1440p without DLSS. The test is pretty silly, so it's not surprising that the results are hilarious.The 2060 is a great GPU. It's certainly not useless. I assume you're confusing what you are looking to buy with the market.
Spunjji - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
"Obviously there's either a driver problem, a testing problem, or a memory capacity limitation."I wouldn't say the first two are obvious. Problems with memory capacity seem very likely, but I feel like that's a relevant concern to raise about future games with RT effects.
"Why would he test Port Royal at 1440p for this GPU"
Port Royal is a 1440p test, so taking results at 1080p wouldn't be comparable to every other result in their database. I'm not sure how much lowering the resolution would help vs. the 2060 - Ampere's performance advantage over Turing increases with resolution. It's a bit of a problem for low-end parts like this one (you can see it in the other results).
"The 2060 is a great GPU. It's certainly not useless."
I wasn't clear - the 2060's performance is fine (I have the broadly equivalent RX 5600M), it's the *RTX capabilities* that I was describing as "fairly useless". You have to sacrifice image quality to free up resources for effects that are supposed to improve image quality, and to me that doesn't make any sense. I think they should have limited RTX to the 2070 and above with Turing, and 3060 and above with Ampere.
As it is, Nvidia is pushing low-end users to pay for RTX features they can't really use to provide the illusion of a larger installed user base for RTX. DLSS is a helpful feature for low-end cards even without RT, though, so it's not all bad.
Yojimbo - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
"I wouldn't say the first two are obvious. Problems with memory capacity seem very likely, but I feel like that's a relevant concern to raise about future games with RT effects."A, B, or C, is true if any of A, B, or C are true. It's not a relevant concern to raise, because in the future one is less likely to use the card for 1440p, not more likely. And we don't know the answer to the question (why is the benchmark so low) so we can't talk as if we did. First it needs to be explored and A, and B need to be ruled out. "I wouldn't say..." is not ruling it out. There's no reason to believe it's not A or B. None at all.
"Port Royal is a 1440p test"
Then it's a useless benchmark for this card.
"I wasn't clear - the 2060's performance is fine (I have the broadly equivalent RX 5600M), it's the *RTX capabilities* that I was describing as "fairly useless". You have to sacrifice image quality to free up resources for effects that are supposed to improve image quality, and to me that doesn't make any sense."
That isn't true. You can play with RT and DLSS, especially if you are able to use G-Sync or Freesync, even at 1440p with the 2060. At 1080p the 2060 can lock to 60fps in Control with ultra settings, all ray tracing enabled, using DLSS.
As it is, Nvidia is pushing low-end users to pay for RTX features they can't really use to provide the illusion of a larger installed user base for RTX.
"As it is, Nvidia is pushing low-end users to pay for RTX features they can't really use to provide the illusion of a larger installed user base for RTX."
The evidence clearly says otherwise. It's all catalogued on digital foundry.
DanNeely - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
"As an added kicker, these are the first xx50 tier products to have ray tracing – and thus qualify for the RTX moniker – so expect to see NVIDIA promoting that aspect rather hard."Why would they. These are going to end up in scuffed miners data centers, and they don't give a fart about ray tracing because you can't use it to convert coal smoke into ponzi coins.
Spunjji - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
"convert coal smoke into ponzi coins"Boom.
The RT features are useless to gamers, too. Performance is tooo loowwww.
Dribble - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Importantly they come with DLSS too - any game that supports DLSS will be fine at 1080p on these, even with RT.Spunjji - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
Not entirely true. Between the image quality sacrifices of upscaling from 720p and the unspectacular frame-rates (e.g. even with DLSS, Minecraft gets 40fps at 1080p with RT), I genuinely don't know why anyone would bother when you could turn off RT and get more consistent performance at 1080p Ultra / 1440p High.grant3 - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Is there a non-gamer use-case for ray tracing? If someone is doing lightweight modeling or animation perhaps?DanNeely - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
It's a high end modeling/animation thing mostly. ex Pixar movies have been ray traced long before NVidia created a dedicated hardware accelerator for it.grant3 - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Sure, but animation studios aren't making film on 3050 GPUs.I'm wondering what kind of work would a person be doing on a laptop that Raytracing actually helps. CAD? Small animation projects? Advertising demos?
J0S3R - Wednesday, May 12, 2021 - link
Someone I know who is an independent architect was telling me about this, He spends a lot of time with clients up front trying to give them the best sense of what they're going to get for their dollar. https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/ray-tracin...Spunjji - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
AFAIK, there are hardly any right now. Offline ray tracing has uses, but real-time RTX doesn't yet do much outside of games. Some of the hardware would be useful for AI purposes, but Nvidia want to push customers to Quadro for that.webdoctors - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Really? Friend looking to buy just for Minecraft RT support. That doesn't need a highend GPU right?Spunjji - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
Minecraft doesn't, but RT does - regardless of the game. The RTX 2060 gets ~25-30fps average (dips below 20fps) in Minecraft at 1080p with RTX enabled. DLSS improves that to 40-50fps, which is entirely playable, but the visuals are mushy because the original resolution is so low (720p).We don't have enough data points to compare reliably yet, but the 3050Ti is giving every indication of being worse than the 2060 at RTX. If your friend doesn't mind low frame-rates and/or it's all they can afford, they'll have a better experience than none at all; I just don't think it makes sense over the faster or cheaper hardware Nvidia could be offering if they weren't squeezing RT features into low-end cards.
J0S3R - Wednesday, May 12, 2021 - link
"These are going to end up in scuffed miners data centers, and they don't give a fart about ray tracing because you can't use it to convert coal smoke into ponzi coins." While I am of the same opinion wrt ponzi coal, I'm curious about your assertion in this particular case. Are miners getting their hands on the raw laptop GPUs and installing them in custom boards, or are they just using the laptops directly? Or are they shucking the laptops and keeping the mainboards somehow? I realize supplies are tight, and miners are inventive, but that seems like a lot of hoops to jump through. But I haven't been paying close enough attention to know how mobile chips are getting used.DanNeely - Wednesday, May 12, 2021 - link
They're bulk buying gaming laptops and using them directly. I've seen other less janky setups where they were setup on shelves/racks instead of scattered across the floor, but this was the first hit from Google.https://www.coindesk.com/nvidia-cryptocurrency-min...
Spunjji - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
Pisses me off every time I see thatMorawka - Wednesday, May 12, 2021 - link
Ok boomerSirDragonClaw - Wednesday, May 12, 2021 - link
My gpus are wind powered thank you very much.Spunjji - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
In which case something else that could have been wind powered is powered by fossil fuels. It's much the same in the end.grant3 - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
A 50% performance boost from the 1650 mobile GPUs sounds really nice.Makes me hopeful it's included in the next XPS models.
evilspoons - Wednesday, May 12, 2021 - link
I'd love to get my hands on a half-height... uh, anything really... with the NVDEC this generation of cards seems to come with. No details here if GA107 includes the same full NVDEC as a desktop 3080 or whatever, but if it does it sure would be nice to have something to replace the GT 1030 :|damianrobertjones - Wednesday, May 26, 2021 - link
Imagine owning a 1650 ti based laptop and getting 0 frames in games! That was be awful.