think touchpads suck. So, I always need a mouse. Virtually all mice are USB-A. That means if I want to use anything else whatsover with USB-A, I now need expensive adapters, docks, etc. No thumb drives, no external optical drives, no external storage drives, no printers, no wireless keyboards, etc.
While I don't have any evidence to say "most" people need two, there are plenty of use cases where someone wants a mouse + one other device.
Most cheap ones cant arbitrarily pair to a bluetooth capable PC. They come pre-paired to a usb dongle and thats it. Either plug it in or you don't use it.
I've been using a Bluetooth LE mouse (Microsoft 3600) with my Surface Pro 3 for years now. It's as reliable as any device that needs a separate receiver and I don't have to worry about breaking the damn thing off in a laptop bag.
Same here, beware Logitech's battery scam but there's nothing wrong with the reception. It might suffer the BT power-save bug but AFAIK that's not mouse-specific but laptop-specific. The workaround is to turn BT power save off or if that doesn't work, one of those BT scanners that pings the mouse every few seconds.
not everyone is a silicon valley darling. Many people still have movies or photos or optical media. Sure you could make the argument that those people likely are not the primary surface market, but "most people" are not the surface market, and "most people" is what's being discussed, not people who gladly use no external devices with their $1500 computer.
Would it have really killed them to have another type A port? Even $200 chromebooks can maanage that.
You're falling into the typical Anadtech commenter fallacy. If they had two USB-C ports, you'd ask for USB-A ports. If they have one USB-A port, you ask for two. If they had two USB-A ports, you'd find something else to bitch about. User-upgradable memory. A bigger battery. A brighter screen. A different screen ratio. Who knows; who cares! It's all fallacious, feature-itis by this tiny little very loud segment of the computer-using population that wants everything to still be floor-standing desktop towers and all sorts of other why-can't-things-just-stay-the-same-isms.
It has one USB port. And I guarantee you not one person who buys one will care that it only has one, nor would it cause so much as a single additional sale if it had two. People don't make decisions that way, any more so than when people go buy a car do they look at torque curves. It's *fucking* mental how myopic you people can be and how what you find important doesn't represent even the tiniest sliver of importance to computer manufacturers anymore.
But not to worry. I'm sure there will be a smartphone review posted soon, that way you can get back to bitching about removable batteries.
This right here. It's pretty easy to see what consumer demand looks like at a given price point. Go look at what the popular models are and recognize that whatever assumptions you have about your personal use case may not be what the market is requiring.
All sorts of stuff I want on a given bit of hardware that isn't commonly there. It's okay, I adapt. The market does not exist exclusively for me.
Well, with regards to ports, if you are offering less to the user than the chipset offers you and you don't have a good reason for that, you are just cheaping out on the customers.
This is part of the reason Surface devices suck from some POV. If the CPU gives you Thuderbolt for free (Intel versions), than as a user I expect you to give me Thunderbolt ports because it only costs you the traces on the board and the ports themselves. Microsoft has been very very late in adopting Thunderbolt for some reason (I know the latest versions do have Thunderbolt).
I've been working at home for the past year using a grand total of 0 type-A ports on my laptop. I have a type-C connection to a type-C dock and a type-A BT dongle attached to that for my mouse. I suspect that this is along the lines of what the gods of technological advancement had in mind. At this point, it's type-C for the win. Although, I can't figure out where to put my 3.5" floppies :/
Perfectly fine to have 1 USB-C port, but since its used for charging there should be at least two other ports. Doesn't matter what they are, just give me the ability to have a thumb drive and mouse while charging.
This is something the (much smaller) Dell XPS 13 devices do a lot better. My older model has charging, 2x USB and TB. They apparently had so much space left over they even threw in an SD card slot. A 15" laptop shouldn't have so much less.
I think you're looking at it backwards as computer manufacturers have learned one thing: consumers will continue to buy products they don't like if there are no alternatives at the prices they want. Consumers have given up fighting as pricing has become the dominant factor and people don't want to spend more, especially in a market whose pricing has been slowly creeping up of late.
The reduction of the number of ports historically has made sense for the most part: USB has won out. However with Type-C that can also carry power, things do get more complicated as you can lose a data port for a peripheral when you need to charge the unit. Devices that only have two USB ports feel anemic in this regard as users do notice when they'll have to pull double duty in a crunch.
Some of what you said makes sense. But removeable batteries and storage are next level, not USB port level priorities. Come On. Apple charges $800 for 1TB storage that I can buy for $100 to add to the Surface. Bam, I'm interested in the Surface. Because my phone lacks a removeable battery, I generally upgrade every 24 months as the phone won't last. Removeable batteries enable 3 and 4 year ownership. These are not "USB port" level myopia.
Your guarantee is now broken: I would buy a surface laptop if they included a single additional thunderbolt port.
You're probably right that -many- people do not care about ports, but that is changing quickly as people set up their work-from-home hardware and start to realize how damn vital having a hub to connect their monitors and other peripherals is.
Apple, Dell, and other makers got the memo years ago. They give their premium 15" laptops at least 3+ ports. Microsoft apparently thinks it can replicate Apple's "Remove features and raise the price" approach to hardware success, but haven't clued into the fact that it only works when they simultaneously offer -some- compelling alternative to the hardware they removed.
They could have rearranged the layout and added to the BoM cost to get in a second Type-A port which probably >95% of the user base won't ever need. Or, they could tell that <5% to buy a hub and deal with it.
Lots of people use external devices; I've got a TB3/USB-C dock that I connect my home or work laptop to that's chained to a monitor, keyboard, mouse, power, and wired internet.
Pretty much no one uses optical media on laptops (or desktops, to be honest), which is why you have to use an external drive for it even on big clunky gaming laptops.
The volume and weight of an optical disk for laptops compares to a 48Wh battery. You could easily fit one more 2.5 inch SATA SSD _and_ another 20Wh of battery inside that, or SSD plus one M2 plus on SODIMM, and so on.
Even if 17" gaming laptops are huge, their internal space is at a premium due to the cooling necessary for the CPU and GPU. In this case, the volume and weight of the optical drives give you another 20% cooling capacity.
One of my university colleagues had a computer (in a tower case) with a CD drive (650 MB) and a 420MB hard drive. Even if that would have been a laptop, losing so much volume to removable media larger than the hard drive would have been a win. Not so much for the present - 9GB double side double density DVDs or 50GB BluRays do not compare well to even 256GB SSD of the low end devices.
This list is silly. Almost all of the things you mention are mostly accessed wirelessly these days. USB-A to USB-C adapters are super cheap and Anker sells a nice line of USB-C hubs that provide additional ports if you truly need them. I have one in my bag due to my Dell laptop having only 2 USB-C ports, but I can't even remember the last time I needed to use it.
There are excellent actual bluetooth mice out there, I use a Microsoft one. Who is using their optical drive on the go, or really at all? Your storage is better in the cloud or on the network, again how most people use it nowadays. Also, printers, can you even buy a decent printer that isn't wireless now? And again, bluetooth keyboards are a thing and they are cheap.
Just bizarre list. Reads like someone stuck in computing from 15 years ago.
If this is your list of needs, modern ultrabooks are not for you.
Or people reasonably can't afford to repurchase everything. A cheap just to get it done wired mouse can be had for as little as $5 where as a good BlueTooth mouse starts at $20. The kicker is that people already have a wired mouse they could plug-in and use. Yeah, $20 in the grand scheme of things but when you have pay that extra amount five or six times, it starts to get noticed by the masses especially on top of the price of a new ultrabook.
Ditto for printers. If you've saved up and purchased a unit years ago and is humming along nicely, why replace it with something new? At some point it does make sense to upgrade due to the lack of ink/toner available on the market or it just breaks down, but realistically things can last a very long time.
My Dell 5540M I'm currently using has two USB-A and one TB3 port and I often find myself limited. I use a lot of hardwired networking to isolated networks so there goes one port dedicated to that. The wired networking port generally gets the TB port even though it is type-A and I'll need an A-to-C adapter. One Type A goes to a wired mouse since it also doubles as a mouse for some systems that either have BT disabled or no wireless connectivity at all (and i'm not going to carry a second one if i don't have to). The remaining type A is often used for removable storage or a wired audio device. Thankfully I still have a dedicated barrel power jack. The TB3 port also supports power in a pinch and I borrowed other people's type-c chargers in an emergency. There are indeed times where I wish I had four USB ports.
I also do have access to a USB external optical drive which I pull out once or twice year to access an old physical media file. I've probably had this over half a decade with the same relative pace of usage and probably will keep on to it until it break at what point I imagine it'll pass the decade mark. My coworkers know I have it and again a few times a year one will ask to borrow it for a similar one-off data transfer. Migrating data to the network/cloud is a generally a good idea but it takes time, has costs (and monthly costs for the cloud) associated for it and a small amount of skill on the user's end.
While your desccribed use case seems to need more (USB) ports at times most of it could be managed by a cheap USB-hub. Additionally, you must admit that this is beyond propably 99% of computer users out there. Most people don't use one mouse for more than one computer. Actually everyone I know outside IT does not use wired networking on a mobile device. For my sisters (both teachers) and parents (small buisness owners) switching everything possible to wireless was propably the best quality of live upgrade since they use computers.
Hubs can be problematic vs. having the port natively in a device. Large capacity hubs or those that can power other devices require AC outlets. Small data only hubs exist but generally are not the highest quality. Hubs also run the risk of some one tripping over a cable and unplugging everything off of that hub (uplink is disconnected) vs. a single device. A single home run to the host device is strongly preferred where every possible. This also applies to various adapters from say USB-C to DisplayPort: a single cable with the proper ends is preferred over a USB-C to female DP port and a DP-to-DP cable. Simply less to go wrong in the single path and you carry around less.
Wired networking is critical for me as I often work on isolated, wired networks. There have been at times where I've been on two independent wired networks and still had wi-fi going. I realize that my use-case is rather specific but it does drive home the more general idea that the number of USB ports on a system is restrictively small, especially if they're pulling double duty for the likes of power, video, audio and networking.
I've had a Surface for some time and, while the limitation to one USB port is occasionally annoying, it's never been for a mouse. It's a premium device, and it's not unreasonable to spend $/£/€50 on a Bluetooth mouse. I only ever hit the limit when connecting a memory stick and another peripheral, and that's rare when on the move without the dock.
You can get a pretty inexpensive travel USB-A 3.0 hub for less than $20. I just keep one in my travel bag. A quick search turned up two different 4-port models for $13-15.
People giving presentations often need more than one USB port which I can see this laptop being used to give a lot of presentations. A flash drive and a Powerpoint presenter are both commonly used when giving presentations, that's two USB ports there.
Typical use case for a business machine - running software that requires a USB dongle to operate. Removing it disables the software. One port down. Need to charge? Both down. How about people who leave a low profile USB drive in a slot for local back up purposes? If my livelihood is based on what is on that machine, I've got a local backup running as well as cloud.
Sure, plug in a USB C dongle with a wire and giant block with all the connections you'll need (because having a different one for every use is expensive and fiddly) and you'd better not be using the laptop on your lap on a train or in a car. It'll dangle off your lap, yanking on the port constantly.
A business laptop, in my humble opinion, should have three available ports as a minimum. But as others have said here, they are likely working on feedback from telemetry and real world use. 95% of people don't use it so screw 5%.
In my view, a business laptop like this, with such an asking price should be putting in the extras that ensure more than the bare minimum for the majority. The people who have a use case as I have suggested above simply won't buy it, so it won't be their problem.
They've also figured out how to make touchpads that makes everything else feel like compressed trash dug up from an abandoned landfill, so there's that.
Having purchased a 2nd hand Surface Laptop 3 last week, in my experience one USB-A was limiting. I do not own a single USB-C device and re-installing Windows and installing Linux from a USB stick without the use of the built-in keyboard and trackpad was annoying. As was backing up the system with a USB bootable recovery program (that also lacked the wifi driver).
To install Windows, rather than use the latest image, I resorted to the official MS SL3 recovery USB, which included the drivers during setup, but incurred hours of Windows updates. For Linux I used the Grub ‘toram’ option and fumbled with swapping keyboard and mouse in and out of the single port, as well as using the onscreen accessibility keyboard. Then for a backup/recovery (lacking input drivers and a wifi driver), I repartitioned the drive and backed up to a spare partition.
Easy when you know how, but it was frustrating, especially as I sold by only USB hub (built into a monitor) last month.
He also explained a situation in which 99% of computer users would not even understand let alone run into. Been in IT 20+ years and rarely have to work like that. If vendors considered these things they would probably be throwing away millions in profit.
This is a premium device. People who can afford it buy a bluetooth mouse or a mouse with a usb C dongle.
I've had thinkpad laptops with thunderbolt for 4 years now. I use a TB3 dock at home and work, have usbc charging cables for my Android and ipad and have multiple usb drives that have dual a/c connectors. Heck, my car is all USB-C now for Android auto.
I have an HP x360 2in1 with a ryzen 4700u and 8GB of ram that I will upgrade to 16-32GB here soon but besides the point, it has a power dc jack, USB-c with HDMI, DisplayPort, power and data transfer, an HDMI port and a headphone jack, ohh and an sd card slot that I basically never use but anyway I dock it with a USB-C hub and a monitor over HDMI all connected to a usb-c hub that I have with 3 USB 3.0 and 1 HDMI and another sd card slot, I plug into power using the dc power jack and im set to go with 2 cables to plug in. point is, on the go I maybe use a wired mouse if I game, but most of the time I use a USB port for data transfer and that about it, 1 USB port with a USB-c and another power jack is honestly perfect for me at least.
Thanks Brett! Agree on most of your points. Questions, comments: Is the memory user upgradable? It doesn't seem to be, which would be a major minus for a "premium" laptop. Other Comment: Regarding your Handbrake tests, I would stay away from the "Hardware" ones unless you can add information on the size of the resulting file and the quality. One aspect where NVIDIA is (still?) far ahead of AMD's GPUs is the encoding ASIC; since Turing, NVENC has become downright usable (comparable quality to software encoding at about 1.2 x the file size, much faster) whereas AMD's solution is clearly inferior in quality. If that has changed in recent months, I'd love to know. Lastly, I didn't like AMD replacing the number of iGPU cores with cranking up the frequency (from previous Ryzen APUs), and it's now biting them in the rear. An 10- 11 core design like the older gen would have beaten Xe.
In my shopping experience, all premium laptops have soldered RAM. If you want SODIMM slots, you have to look at gaming devices and budget laptops, not ultrabooks or thin 'n light.
If by "premium" you mean "overpriced consumer garbage". premium business machines still often offer SO-DIMMs, even in thin n light 2 in 1s. Not all do, but the better ones do.
just get something like an HP envy or something with that sorta lineup/budget most have non-soldered ram and pretty dang decent performance and most high-end features too.
"Vega" has aged very well in its performance and efficiency. The VCN ('Video Core Next') 2.2 ASCI performs admirably. I kinda laugh at comparisons to NVENC and the Xe equivalence. It's the MS Surface / Ali 'Rope-A-Dope' once again.
The Ryzen 5000 *G* Vega APUs are now rolling, and soon the mobile Radeon RX 6000s will hit the streets. I suspect that mobile 'graphics engine' will evolve into the *G* 6000 APUs in a year or so, complete with RDNA2+ and VCN 3.x ...
I appreciate they keep the surface connector around for legacy users, but they should really stop using it on new accessories like the power brick. They should be on a path for complete conversion to USB-C in a few generations.
I'm disappointed that the intel model can come with the top chip in 13" flavor, but AMD's top end is restricted to the 15" model. And the lack of ports, especially on the 15", is rather obnoxious. Even apple knows enough to put multiple type C ports on their pro models.
Is everything internally soldered, or can it be upgraded by an end user?
The Ryzen 7 is available in the 13.5'' version in the business channel, just not to consumers(though if you buy one from Microsoft business store they probably won't verify anything and will just sell it to you).
I believe everything except the SSD is soldered. The SSD has been replaceable since the Surface Laptop 3. Though Microsoft says it's "only replaceable by a professional", I think they make that claim just because it requires opening up the chassis and they don't want to be held responsible by someone destroying the device without following the service manual. Note that they use an 2230 form factor SSD though, so the upgrade options available is pretty limited.
So apparently the uptake here is: if you buy your Surface to play games, get the Intel-nVidia combo; but if you buy your surface for computational performance you buy the AMD versions...
Only if you are, apparently, using the Xe with *96 Execution Units* Nothing about the i5-1145G7 and *80 Execution Units,* and the i7-1065G7 with 64 EUs kinda gets thumped ...
A tiny criticism: the hardware encoding test is apples to oranges, as all 3 encoders have different speed presets. Even at the same bitrate, the AMD encoder may be spitting out worse looking video at its default settings, or it may be better.
Not that I mind the test. In fact, thats a huge buying factor for me. But (unless you want to dive into VMAF measurements), maybe add a little disclaimer?
Agree, and made a similar comment regarding the hardware-assisted video encoding. For this, NVIDIA's NVENC (since Turing) is still the best; AFAIK, neither Intel not AMD have updated their encoding ASIC and/or are still behind on quality. One reason why I am reluctant to get an AMD dGPU (assuming they are even in stock).
Well, Ryzen 5500 and 5700 are also Zen 2 based, so just think of the Surface laptop as being a Ryzen 5700U. I don't know why they didn't just call it the 5750U or something.
I believe AMD said while the 5500U and 5700U are Zen 2 based, they have separate voltage control for each core instead of a single voltage applied to all cores(which could translate to energy savings and better battery life). I guess that the 4980U may not have that capability and that could be a reason they're not calling it a 5750U.
Battery life is about the same... while the AMD take is on 7nm... while the M1 is on 5nm with ARM cores. It is saying a lot. When it comes to performances, Zen 2 is behind the M1 in ST, but MT performance is a bloodbath.
A 5800u would have trashed the M1 entirely with better battery life. It is a missed opportunity. Now I need to find something similar hosting a 5800u...
Not to mention the display is way better on the surface.
Actually look up some info next time. "but MT is a bloodbath", no, a quick YouTube comparison check shows the M1 is only 7 percent slower than the AMD Surface in MT in Cinebench R23. When did "bloodbath" mean 7 percent.
Just to be clear for people that don't understand your comment, M1 outpaces other laptops that aren't plugged into a power source by a very large margin.
My top pick for a cheap laptop right now that is almost as good as the Surface is the Asus Zen OLED. $750 USD for the Ryzen 5500U model. But this Surface 4 AMD model has me intrigued, even if I'd prefer to have a second USB A port.
Maybe I missed it in the review, but does the USB-C port support Display Port alt mode? Please?
meaning the USB Type-C port is USB-only, but it does include native DisplayPort, as well as charging. Microsoft offers some Type-C video and audio adapters as well, if you need to connect to something other than DisplayPort.
It’s a pity that the tables don’t show the performance of a MacBook Air side by side (you can look them up - but not same). Comparison between different processors is a really interesting topic at this time!
yes, Microsoft has its head up its ass when it comes to ports. You've made your point how you can copy Apple's "think different" mantra of pointlessly limiting peripheral connectively. Now it's time to copy Appl again, and include 1+ TB ports on its "premium" laptops.
How much of Tiger Lake's performance advantage over the Ryzen comes from the Ryzen having to stay in a 15 watt power envelope but the Tiger Lake is only limited to 28 watts?
iGPU performance would be DRAM bandwidth constrainted for the top variants: Did you compare DRAM bandwidth between the Renoir and the Tiger Lake units?
It's not very AT that here is zero info on the RAM except that it's soldered on.
alright, at least the 15inch model should have (according to test from Notebookcheck) the upgraded RAM , "with 16384 MB , LPDDR4x-4266, quad-channel, soldered"
heyy guys he performance of laptop is amazing seriously guys i am using it non stop beleive me guys this amazing machine i wrote a many vlogs by using this machine at https://desibagpacker.com/
We’ve updated our terms. By continuing to use the site and/or by logging into your account, you agree to the Site’s updated Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.
Facebook
Twitter
RSS
98 Comments
Back to Article
Speednet - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Great writeup, but would have been awesome to see SL4 Intel vs. AMD.desii - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
No, I don't think a single USB A port is "enough for most people".cknobman - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Writer mentions this is no workstation.Please tell me why "most people" need more than one legacy USB A port.
dullard - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
think touchpads suck. So, I always need a mouse. Virtually all mice are USB-A. That means if I want to use anything else whatsover with USB-A, I now need expensive adapters, docks, etc. No thumb drives, no external optical drives, no external storage drives, no printers, no wireless keyboards, etc.While I don't have any evidence to say "most" people need two, there are plenty of use cases where someone wants a mouse + one other device.
mrochester - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Bluetooth mice exist.TheinsanegamerN - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Most of which ship with a USB A adapter they are already paired to, and which most people will use.Eletriarnation - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Microsoft will probably be OK if they write off the folks who need a bunch of Type-A ports and haven't figured out that hubs and Bluetooth exist.meacupla - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
I don't think you understand what a "Bluetooth" mouse ismrochester - Saturday, May 8, 2021 - link
Bluetooth mice don't need USB adaptors, that's the point.zmatt - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Most cheap ones cant arbitrarily pair to a bluetooth capable PC. They come pre-paired to a usb dongle and thats it. Either plug it in or you don't use it.Cliff34 - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
Bt mouse connection is not reliable.evilspoons - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
I've been using a Bluetooth LE mouse (Microsoft 3600) with my Surface Pro 3 for years now. It's as reliable as any device that needs a separate receiver and I don't have to worry about breaking the damn thing off in a laptop bag.mrochester - Saturday, May 8, 2021 - link
Try a Logitech bluetooth mouse. MX Anywhere 3, MX Master 3 I'd highly recommend.s.yu - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
Same here, beware Logitech's battery scam but there's nothing wrong with the reception. It might suffer the BT power-save bug but AFAIK that's not mouse-specific but laptop-specific. The workaround is to turn BT power save off or if that doesn't work, one of those BT scanners that pings the mouse every few seconds.The Garden Variety - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
"no external optical drives"Are you for real?
TheinsanegamerN - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
not everyone is a silicon valley darling. Many people still have movies or photos or optical media. Sure you could make the argument that those people likely are not the primary surface market, but "most people" are not the surface market, and "most people" is what's being discussed, not people who gladly use no external devices with their $1500 computer.Would it have really killed them to have another type A port? Even $200 chromebooks can maanage that.
The Garden Variety - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
You're falling into the typical Anadtech commenter fallacy. If they had two USB-C ports, you'd ask for USB-A ports. If they have one USB-A port, you ask for two. If they had two USB-A ports, you'd find something else to bitch about. User-upgradable memory. A bigger battery. A brighter screen. A different screen ratio. Who knows; who cares! It's all fallacious, feature-itis by this tiny little very loud segment of the computer-using population that wants everything to still be floor-standing desktop towers and all sorts of other why-can't-things-just-stay-the-same-isms.It has one USB port. And I guarantee you not one person who buys one will care that it only has one, nor would it cause so much as a single additional sale if it had two. People don't make decisions that way, any more so than when people go buy a car do they look at torque curves. It's *fucking* mental how myopic you people can be and how what you find important doesn't represent even the tiniest sliver of importance to computer manufacturers anymore.
But not to worry. I'm sure there will be a smartphone review posted soon, that way you can get back to bitching about removable batteries.
Reflex - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
This right here. It's pretty easy to see what consumer demand looks like at a given price point. Go look at what the popular models are and recognize that whatever assumptions you have about your personal use case may not be what the market is requiring.All sorts of stuff I want on a given bit of hardware that isn't commonly there. It's okay, I adapt. The market does not exist exclusively for me.
alexvoda - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Well, with regards to ports, if you are offering less to the user than the chipset offers you and you don't have a good reason for that, you are just cheaping out on the customers.This is part of the reason Surface devices suck from some POV. If the CPU gives you Thuderbolt for free (Intel versions), than as a user I expect you to give me Thunderbolt ports because it only costs you the traces on the board and the ports themselves. Microsoft has been very very late in adopting Thunderbolt for some reason (I know the latest versions do have Thunderbolt).
Rookierookie - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Of course people who buy it won't care, the people who care won't buy it. I certainly won't buy a laptop with just one USB-A port.richardshannon77 - Monday, May 10, 2021 - link
I've been working at home for the past year using a grand total of 0 type-A ports on my laptop. I have a type-C connection to a type-C dock and a type-A BT dongle attached to that for my mouse. I suspect that this is along the lines of what the gods of technological advancement had in mind. At this point, it's type-C for the win. Although, I can't figure out where to put my 3.5" floppies :/saratoga4 - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Perfectly fine to have 1 USB-C port, but since its used for charging there should be at least two other ports. Doesn't matter what they are, just give me the ability to have a thumb drive and mouse while charging.This is something the (much smaller) Dell XPS 13 devices do a lot better. My older model has charging, 2x USB and TB. They apparently had so much space left over they even threw in an SD card slot. A 15" laptop shouldn't have so much less.
s.yu - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
For a second I thought that was an iPP there. Turns out there's 1A, 1C and the headphone jack, that's bad but not unusable.Kevin G - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
I think you're looking at it backwards as computer manufacturers have learned one thing: consumers will continue to buy products they don't like if there are no alternatives at the prices they want. Consumers have given up fighting as pricing has become the dominant factor and people don't want to spend more, especially in a market whose pricing has been slowly creeping up of late.The reduction of the number of ports historically has made sense for the most part: USB has won out. However with Type-C that can also carry power, things do get more complicated as you can lose a data port for a peripheral when you need to charge the unit. Devices that only have two USB ports feel anemic in this regard as users do notice when they'll have to pull double duty in a crunch.
Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Some of what you said makes sense. But removeable batteries and storage are next level, not USB port level priorities. Come On. Apple charges $800 for 1TB storage that I can buy for $100 to add to the Surface. Bam, I'm interested in the Surface. Because my phone lacks a removeable battery, I generally upgrade every 24 months as the phone won't last. Removeable batteries enable 3 and 4 year ownership. These are not "USB port" level myopia.Kamen Rider Blade - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
The point is that Renoir offers more ports internally on it's SoC.1x USB 3.2 Gen1 Type-C
5x USB 3.2 Gen1 Type-A
2x USB 2.0 Type-A
That's what is natively available, why not implement all of those USB ports?
MS doesn't want to maximize the features or ports on Renoir, that's their choice.
But to the end user, it's cheapening out on features that are available on the SoC and not used.
grant3 - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
Your guarantee is now broken: I would buy a surface laptop if they included a single additional thunderbolt port.You're probably right that -many- people do not care about ports, but that is changing quickly as people set up their work-from-home hardware and start to realize how damn vital having a hub to connect their monitors and other peripherals is.
Apple, Dell, and other makers got the memo years ago. They give their premium 15" laptops at least 3+ ports. Microsoft apparently thinks it can replicate Apple's "Remove features and raise the price" approach to hardware success, but haven't clued into the fact that it only works when they simultaneously offer -some- compelling alternative to the hardware they removed.
Eletriarnation - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
They could have rearranged the layout and added to the BoM cost to get in a second Type-A port which probably >95% of the user base won't ever need. Or, they could tell that <5% to buy a hub and deal with it.drothgery - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Lots of people use external devices; I've got a TB3/USB-C dock that I connect my home or work laptop to that's chained to a monitor, keyboard, mouse, power, and wired internet.Pretty much no one uses optical media on laptops (or desktops, to be honest), which is why you have to use an external drive for it even on big clunky gaming laptops.
Calin - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
The volume and weight of an optical disk for laptops compares to a 48Wh battery.You could easily fit one more 2.5 inch SATA SSD _and_ another 20Wh of battery inside that, or SSD plus one M2 plus on SODIMM, and so on.
Even if 17" gaming laptops are huge, their internal space is at a premium due to the cooling necessary for the CPU and GPU. In this case, the volume and weight of the optical drives give you another 20% cooling capacity.
One of my university colleagues had a computer (in a tower case) with a CD drive (650 MB) and a 420MB hard drive. Even if that would have been a laptop, losing so much volume to removable media larger than the hard drive would have been a win.
Not so much for the present - 9GB double side double density DVDs or 50GB BluRays do not compare well to even 256GB SSD of the low end devices.
Reflex - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
This list is silly. Almost all of the things you mention are mostly accessed wirelessly these days. USB-A to USB-C adapters are super cheap and Anker sells a nice line of USB-C hubs that provide additional ports if you truly need them. I have one in my bag due to my Dell laptop having only 2 USB-C ports, but I can't even remember the last time I needed to use it.There are excellent actual bluetooth mice out there, I use a Microsoft one.
Who is using their optical drive on the go, or really at all?
Your storage is better in the cloud or on the network, again how most people use it nowadays.
Also, printers, can you even buy a decent printer that isn't wireless now?
And again, bluetooth keyboards are a thing and they are cheap.
Just bizarre list. Reads like someone stuck in computing from 15 years ago.
If this is your list of needs, modern ultrabooks are not for you.
Kevin G - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Or people reasonably can't afford to repurchase everything. A cheap just to get it done wired mouse can be had for as little as $5 where as a good BlueTooth mouse starts at $20. The kicker is that people already have a wired mouse they could plug-in and use. Yeah, $20 in the grand scheme of things but when you have pay that extra amount five or six times, it starts to get noticed by the masses especially on top of the price of a new ultrabook.Ditto for printers. If you've saved up and purchased a unit years ago and is humming along nicely, why replace it with something new? At some point it does make sense to upgrade due to the lack of ink/toner available on the market or it just breaks down, but realistically things can last a very long time.
My Dell 5540M I'm currently using has two USB-A and one TB3 port and I often find myself limited. I use a lot of hardwired networking to isolated networks so there goes one port dedicated to that. The wired networking port generally gets the TB port even though it is type-A and I'll need an A-to-C adapter. One Type A goes to a wired mouse since it also doubles as a mouse for some systems that either have BT disabled or no wireless connectivity at all (and i'm not going to carry a second one if i don't have to). The remaining type A is often used for removable storage or a wired audio device. Thankfully I still have a dedicated barrel power jack. The TB3 port also supports power in a pinch and I borrowed other people's type-c chargers in an emergency. There are indeed times where I wish I had four USB ports.
I also do have access to a USB external optical drive which I pull out once or twice year to access an old physical media file. I've probably had this over half a decade with the same relative pace of usage and probably will keep on to it until it break at what point I imagine it'll pass the decade mark. My coworkers know I have it and again a few times a year one will ask to borrow it for a similar one-off data transfer. Migrating data to the network/cloud is a generally a good idea but it takes time, has costs (and monthly costs for the cloud) associated for it and a small amount of skill on the user's end.
simonpschmitt - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
While your desccribed use case seems to need more (USB) ports at times most of it could be managed by a cheap USB-hub.Additionally, you must admit that this is beyond propably 99% of computer users out there.
Most people don't use one mouse for more than one computer.
Actually everyone I know outside IT does not use wired networking on a mobile device.
For my sisters (both teachers) and parents (small buisness owners) switching everything possible to wireless was propably the best quality of live upgrade since they use computers.
Kevin G - Monday, May 10, 2021 - link
Hubs can be problematic vs. having the port natively in a device. Large capacity hubs or those that can power other devices require AC outlets. Small data only hubs exist but generally are not the highest quality. Hubs also run the risk of some one tripping over a cable and unplugging everything off of that hub (uplink is disconnected) vs. a single device. A single home run to the host device is strongly preferred where every possible. This also applies to various adapters from say USB-C to DisplayPort: a single cable with the proper ends is preferred over a USB-C to female DP port and a DP-to-DP cable. Simply less to go wrong in the single path and you carry around less.Wired networking is critical for me as I often work on isolated, wired networks. There have been at times where I've been on two independent wired networks and still had wi-fi going. I realize that my use-case is rather specific but it does drive home the more general idea that the number of USB ports on a system is restrictively small, especially if they're pulling double duty for the likes of power, video, audio and networking.
PaulMack - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
I've had a Surface for some time and, while the limitation to one USB port is occasionally annoying, it's never been for a mouse. It's a premium device, and it's not unreasonable to spend $/£/€50 on a Bluetooth mouse. I only ever hit the limit when connecting a memory stick and another peripheral, and that's rare when on the move without the dock.MrCommunistGen - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
You can get a pretty inexpensive travel USB-A 3.0 hub for less than $20. I just keep one in my travel bag. A quick search turned up two different 4-port models for $13-15.yankeeDDL - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
By "expensive adapter" you mean something like this (25usd)? https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Adaptador-USB-Hub-Mult...Using more than 2 USB port at the time is quite rare. Yes, more ports would help, but clearly teh space is rather limited.
Spunjji - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
If you're using an external optical drive and a printer then you can probably handle using a hub, too.29a - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
People giving presentations often need more than one USB port which I can see this laptop being used to give a lot of presentations. A flash drive and a Powerpoint presenter are both commonly used when giving presentations, that's two USB ports there.philehidiot - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
Typical use case for a business machine - running software that requires a USB dongle to operate. Removing it disables the software. One port down. Need to charge? Both down. How about people who leave a low profile USB drive in a slot for local back up purposes? If my livelihood is based on what is on that machine, I've got a local backup running as well as cloud.Sure, plug in a USB C dongle with a wire and giant block with all the connections you'll need (because having a different one for every use is expensive and fiddly) and you'd better not be using the laptop on your lap on a train or in a car. It'll dangle off your lap, yanking on the port constantly.
A business laptop, in my humble opinion, should have three available ports as a minimum. But as others have said here, they are likely working on feedback from telemetry and real world use. 95% of people don't use it so screw 5%.
In my view, a business laptop like this, with such an asking price should be putting in the extras that ensure more than the bare minimum for the majority. The people who have a use case as I have suggested above simply won't buy it, so it won't be their problem.
Eletriarnation - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
It really is. You don't actually need any at all, this little company called Apple was the first to figure it out.hanselltc - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
They've also figured out how to make touchpads that makes everything else feel like compressed trash dug up from an abandoned landfill, so there's that.Gam3r01 - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Having purchased a 2nd hand Surface Laptop 3 last week, in my experience one USB-A was limiting. I do not own a single USB-C device and re-installing Windows and installing Linux from a USB stick without the use of the built-in keyboard and trackpad was annoying. As was backing up the system with a USB bootable recovery program (that also lacked the wifi driver).To install Windows, rather than use the latest image, I resorted to the official MS SL3 recovery USB, which included the drivers during setup, but incurred hours of Windows updates. For Linux I used the Grub ‘toram’ option and fumbled with swapping keyboard and mouse in and out of the single port, as well as using the onscreen accessibility keyboard. Then for a backup/recovery (lacking input drivers and a wifi driver), I repartitioned the drive and backed up to a spare partition.
Easy when you know how, but it was frustrating, especially as I sold by only USB hub (built into a monitor) last month.
Be Safe, peace.
Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Well said, that's an example of the kind of problem I've had also.Dug - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
So what you are saying, is you didn't prepare. You used the wrong software, and you don't have a usb hub that 99% of the population has.Holliday75 - Monday, May 10, 2021 - link
He also explained a situation in which 99% of computer users would not even understand let alone run into. Been in IT 20+ years and rarely have to work like that. If vendors considered these things they would probably be throwing away millions in profit.dontlistentome - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
That's why Apple give you none.This is a premium device. People who can afford it buy a bluetooth mouse or a mouse with a usb C dongle.
I've had thinkpad laptops with thunderbolt for 4 years now. I use a TB3 dock at home and work, have usbc charging cables for my Android and ipad and have multiple usb drives that have dual a/c connectors. Heck, my car is all USB-C now for Android auto.
Linustechtips12#6900xt - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
I have an HP x360 2in1 with a ryzen 4700u and 8GB of ram that I will upgrade to 16-32GB here soon but besides the point, it has a power dc jack, USB-c with HDMI, DisplayPort, power and data transfer, an HDMI port and a headphone jack, ohh and an sd card slot that I basically never use but anyway I dock it with a USB-C hub and a monitor over HDMI all connected to a usb-c hub that I have with 3 USB 3.0 and 1 HDMI and another sd card slot, I plug into power using the dc power jack and im set to go with 2 cables to plug in. point is, on the go I maybe use a wired mouse if I game, but most of the time I use a USB port for data transfer and that about it, 1 USB port with a USB-c and another power jack is honestly perfect for me at least.ballsystemlord - Tuesday, May 11, 2021 - link
I agree. We need at least 2 USB-A ports.eastcoast_pete - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Thanks Brett! Agree on most of your points. Questions, comments: Is the memory user upgradable? It doesn't seem to be, which would be a major minus for a "premium" laptop. Other Comment: Regarding your Handbrake tests, I would stay away from the "Hardware" ones unless you can add information on the size of the resulting file and the quality. One aspect where NVIDIA is (still?) far ahead of AMD's GPUs is the encoding ASIC; since Turing, NVENC has become downright usable (comparable quality to software encoding at about 1.2 x the file size, much faster) whereas AMD's solution is clearly inferior in quality. If that has changed in recent months, I'd love to know.Lastly, I didn't like AMD replacing the number of iGPU cores with cranking up the frequency (from previous Ryzen APUs), and it's now biting them in the rear. An 10- 11 core design like the older gen would have beaten Xe.
neogodless - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
In my shopping experience, all premium laptops have soldered RAM. If you want SODIMM slots, you have to look at gaming devices and budget laptops, not ultrabooks or thin 'n light.TheinsanegamerN - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
If by "premium" you mean "overpriced consumer garbage". premium business machines still often offer SO-DIMMs, even in thin n light 2 in 1s. Not all do, but the better ones do.Dug - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Look at Lenovo.Linustechtips12#6900xt - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
just get something like an HP envy or something with that sorta lineup/budget most have non-soldered ram and pretty dang decent performance and most high-end features too.Smell This - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
"Vega" has aged very well in its performance and efficiency. The VCN ('Video Core Next') 2.2 ASCI performs admirably. I kinda laugh at comparisons to NVENC and the Xe equivalence. It's the MS Surface / Ali 'Rope-A-Dope' once again.
The Ryzen 5000 *G* Vega APUs are now rolling, and soon the mobile Radeon RX 6000s will hit the streets. I suspect that mobile 'graphics engine' will evolve into the *G* 6000 APUs in a year or so, complete with RDNA2+ and VCN 3.x ...
BOOM! goes the dynamite ... LOL
iphonebestgamephone - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
Just saw the 5700g tested, same score as the 4980u in firestrike.flgt - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
I appreciate they keep the surface connector around for legacy users, but they should really stop using it on new accessories like the power brick. They should be on a path for complete conversion to USB-C in a few generations.TheinsanegamerN - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
I'm disappointed that the intel model can come with the top chip in 13" flavor, but AMD's top end is restricted to the 15" model. And the lack of ports, especially on the 15", is rather obnoxious. Even apple knows enough to put multiple type C ports on their pro models.Is everything internally soldered, or can it be upgraded by an end user?
sbcui - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
The Ryzen 7 is available in the 13.5'' version in the business channel, just not to consumers(though if you buy one from Microsoft business store they probably won't verify anything and will just sell it to you).I believe everything except the SSD is soldered. The SSD has been replaceable since the Surface Laptop 3. Though Microsoft says it's "only replaceable by a professional", I think they make that claim just because it requires opening up the chassis and they don't want to be held responsible by someone destroying the device without following the service manual. Note that they use an 2230 form factor SSD though, so the upgrade options available is pretty limited.
Vitor - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Dat color accuracy =OLarsBars - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Any word on why the AMD version is not offered with 32GB? Kind of hampering the 8c/16t with that ram configuration...WaltC - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
So apparently the uptake here is: if you buy your Surface to play games, get the Intel-nVidia combo; but if you buy your surface for computational performance you buy the AMD versions...SNESChalmers - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
What Intel/Nvidia combo? SL4 is Tigerlake/Xe or Renoir/VegaAlistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
he was referring to the massively overprice Surface book, not "4"Smell This - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Only if you are, apparently, using the Xe with *96 Execution Units*
Nothing about the i5-1145G7 and *80 Execution Units,* and the i7-1065G7 with 64 EUs kinda gets thumped ...
iphonebestgamephone - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Ok?Smell This - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
I've got a stalker ... LOL
iphonebestgamephone - Friday, May 14, 2021 - link
Then do something about it. Read my comment to your other comment.brucethemoose - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
A tiny criticism: the hardware encoding test is apples to oranges, as all 3 encoders have different speed presets. Even at the same bitrate, the AMD encoder may be spitting out worse looking video at its default settings, or it may be better.Not that I mind the test. In fact, thats a huge buying factor for me. But (unless you want to dive into VMAF measurements), maybe add a little disclaimer?
eastcoast_pete - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Agree, and made a similar comment regarding the hardware-assisted video encoding. For this, NVIDIA's NVENC (since Turing) is still the best; AFAIK, neither Intel not AMD have updated their encoding ASIC and/or are still behind on quality. One reason why I am reluctant to get an AMD dGPU (assuming they are even in stock).eva02langley - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Seriously... MS... I was going to buy one if you were using Zen 3... but you are using Zen 2... WTH is wrong with you! Zen 2 was for last year!Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Well, Ryzen 5500 and 5700 are also Zen 2 based, so just think of the Surface laptop as being a Ryzen 5700U. I don't know why they didn't just call it the 5750U or something.sbcui - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
I believe AMD said while the 5500U and 5700U are Zen 2 based, they have separate voltage control for each core instead of a single voltage applied to all cores(which could translate to energy savings and better battery life). I guess that the 4980U may not have that capability and that could be a reason they're not calling it a 5750U.tipoo - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Could we get a short comparison to M1?eva02langley - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Battery life is about the same... while the AMD take is on 7nm... while the M1 is on 5nm with ARM cores. It is saying a lot. When it comes to performances, Zen 2 is behind the M1 in ST, but MT performance is a bloodbath.A 5800u would have trashed the M1 entirely with better battery life. It is a missed opportunity. Now I need to find something similar hosting a 5800u...
Not to mention the display is way better on the surface.
Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Actually look up some info next time. "but MT is a bloodbath", no, a quick YouTube comparison check shows the M1 is only 7 percent slower than the AMD Surface in MT in Cinebench R23. When did "bloodbath" mean 7 percent.Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
And don't forget the M1's integrated GPU is a bloodbath vs. Intel or AMD right now, especially on battery power.Dug - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Just to be clear for people that don't understand your comment, M1 outpaces other laptops that aren't plugged into a power source by a very large margin.Ppietra - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
Battery life is about the same???It isn’t! The M1 MacBook consumes way less... Don’t confuse battery life while watching videos with actual work!
Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
My top pick for a cheap laptop right now that is almost as good as the Surface is the Asus Zen OLED. $750 USD for the Ryzen 5500U model. But this Surface 4 AMD model has me intrigued, even if I'd prefer to have a second USB A port.Maybe I missed it in the review, but does the USB-C port support Display Port alt mode? Please?
Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
oh jeeze, no HDMI port included either!Powervano - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
Yes, it does. The support for alt mode was there in Surface Laptop 3 as well.Alistair - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
if it does, it should be in the review... Anandtech!!!Brett Howse - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
It is in the review...meaning the USB Type-C port is USB-only, but it does include native DisplayPort, as well as charging. Microsoft offers some Type-C video and audio adapters as well, if you need to connect to something other than DisplayPort.
hlovatt - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
It’s a pity that the tables don’t show the performance of a MacBook Air side by side (you can look them up - but not same). Comparison between different processors is a really interesting topic at this time!heickelrrx - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
Still no TBEven M1 mac has it now
Come on, those Tiger Lake chip literally have Integrated TB controller lying dormant
Alistair - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
but the usb-c i assumes has display port alt modegrant3 - Thursday, May 13, 2021 - link
yes, Microsoft has its head up its ass when it comes to ports. You've made your point how you can copy Apple's "think different" mantra of pointlessly limiting peripheral connectively. Now it's time to copy Appl again, and include 1+ TB ports on its "premium" laptops.Dug - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
A few things I really like about Surface laptops.Screen (and aspect ratio), keyboard, touchpad, clean aesthetics, and bloat free install of Windows.
The rest, I don't care about. It's a laptop, not a workstation or desktop. So for those categories, it does an excellent job.
29a - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
How much of Tiger Lake's performance advantage over the Ryzen comes from the Ryzen having to stay in a 15 watt power envelope but the Tiger Lake is only limited to 28 watts?wmeyer48 - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
"...Microsoft’s Surface team has become quite a driver of innovation..."And yet, in the MS store, the larger RAM capacities are available only on an Intel CPU.
Yawn.
m53 - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
Poor single threaded and GPU performance. Only good for heavily threaded applications which are not typical use cases for a thin and light notebook.abufrejoval - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
iGPU performance would be DRAM bandwidth constrainted for the top variants: Did you compare DRAM bandwidth between the Renoir and the Tiger Lake units?It's not very AT that here is zero info on the RAM except that it's soldered on.
abufrejoval - Friday, May 7, 2021 - link
darn, just found it in the table the second I posted, sorry!rich42 - Saturday, May 8, 2021 - link
i am wondering if the AMD models do really come with "LPDDR4X-3733MHz" or are rather restricted at "2400Mhz" as had happened before;rich42 - Saturday, May 8, 2021 - link
alright, at least the 15inch model should have (according to test from Notebookcheck) the upgraded RAM , "with 16384 MB , LPDDR4x-4266, quad-channel, soldered"pogsnet - Wednesday, May 19, 2021 - link
Intel is using different battery capacity here vs Ryzen. As manifested in charging times.daringbaz - Friday, October 1, 2021 - link
heyy guys he performance of laptop is amazing seriously guys i am using it non stop beleive me guys this amazing machine i wrote a many vlogs by using this machine at https://desibagpacker.com/