She did however mention that additional capacity would become available for GPU in the 2nd half of the year, so hopefully we see the current prices come down and more value products being launched.
I think a more relevant contribution to higher availability of GPUs to consumers is Bitmain starting to sell an Ethereum miner that is ~4x more energy efficient than using GA102 GPUs.
Well my love of freedom is a little more important to me then being able to play the latest bing-bing-wahoo at 4k, so I'm going to go with being against the authoritarian bullshit. Besides, if they are banning mining for "wasting energy", then gaming should also be banned for the exact same reason. That is not a slippery slope anyone should encourage.
One could reasonably argue that the people who got rich off mining bitcoins were made happier. After all money doesn't buy happiness, except for the 100% of times when it does.
China tells it's citizens to escape poverty by whatever means necessary. They run we markets that allow endangered species to be sold for food. They built some of the dirtiest coal plants in the world and in large numbers. The CCP really doesn't have any high ground here. I do wonder if the latest bearish trend on BTC has anything to do with these confiscated BTC wallets. The Chinease could be selling the confiscations immediately on the market.
Your comment translated to plain English: "I don't know much about China, but I sure do have some conspiracy theories I want to marry to my casual xenophobia".
Your comment translated to non woke - "I dislike how you are speaking the truth about a country I classify as full of minorities so I will throw labels at you in a vain attempt to sound better then you".
@TheinsangamerN - of course you think "woke" is an insult. 🙄 No, I do not classify China as "full of minorities" because I'm not a racist and I understand how words work. I'm not attempting to sound better than anyone - vainly or otherwise - I'm pointing out bigoted bullshit. If you think bigoted bullshit makes a person sound worse than someone else, maybe reflect more on the bigot instead of jumping on me. If not, well, that speaks for itself.
"Makes me happy" is really only a good justification if nobody gets hurt in the process. Otherwise Jack the Ripper could use it to claim "justified murder". Gaming probably uses *a lot* less electricity than cryptomining and "distributes" the happiness more evenly. So it's fair to say that for the society and the world in general crypto brought nothing of value and worse, it brought a massive net loss. For a few individuals who got rich off of that general loss it was a win. Still an overall massive net loss for humanity.
And for those who insist on the hypothetical benefits of crypto, they stay solidly hypothetical. To this point crypto has seen massive usage as a speculative "get rich" tool, or for illegal activity. The legitimate uses are still on paper. The practical benefits of leisurely activities like gaming far outweigh the practical benefits of BTC.
Making money off of mining GPUs being humans happiness as well. Do you have a qualifier for how people should be allowed to enjoy their hardware, or a way to easure the amount of happiness?
I also feel very happy when I use my crypto coins to support websites and creators I enjoy. How does that factor into your happiness equation?
@TheinsanegamerN - it's notable that your response to at_clucks completely ignored everything they said about the net lossed inherent to crypto (expending unnecessarily large amounts of power to move money around) and the hypothetical nature of the claimed benefits, and instead kept trying to hammer on that slippery slope argument you started out with. You know, the kind of argument that people only make when they don't have anything valid with which to defend their stance on a topic. 🤔
Gaming has almost nothing to do with my dislike of miners - it's very much about the waste of power. It's a massive false equivalence (and a slippery slope of its own) to equate that with video gaming; I'll admit that don't actually know what the global power usage of video gaming is, but nobody does it literally 24/7, let alone running dozens of GPUs at the same time. People using power for their leisure time is also both morally and materially different from people burning power on pointless algorithms for the singular goal of enriching themselves at the expense of others.
Crypto is inherently unsustainable, and the kind of people who do it can't be appealed to by any kind of rational argument about the common good, because what they're doing is already inherently irrational. There's no good solution to the problem they're causing.
I do enjoy the idea that we could "encourage" the Chinese government (or any other government) to engage in authoritarian behaviour, though. That's cute.
@TheinsanegamerN - You *know* I'm not talking about "hobbyist" miners here. Why pretend otherwise, other than to be smug?
I don't have facts to back it up because they don't exist. You probably also know this, which is why you haven't brought any to the discussion yourself. I'm admitting to the limitations of my knowledge, you're being a smug dipshit. QED.
@aebov - Okay then, ignore the "common good" and whatever you assumed I meant by that, because from context it's clear it's different from what I mean. Crypto mining is just not "good". Happy now? 🤷♂️
Video gaming is a waste of power. Drag racing is a waste of power. Television is a waste of power. Movies are a waste of power. Driving to visit relatives is a waste of power.
@Oxford Guy - you know slippery slope arguments aren't persuasive, right? I'm not making the argument that all things that use power are bad, I am specifically making the argument that a system that was designed to burn power in order to provide the illusion of value is a shitty system.
Valid analogies would be: Leaving your TV on all day with nobody watching is a waste of power. Revving an engine all day and going nowhere is a waste of fuel.
You and our insane gamer friend seem to have a similar affection for false equivalences, rubbish rhetorical strategies, and unjustified faith in your own reasoning abilities.
@dug The only estimates I've seen that came close to reasonable suggested the two are more similar than I thought, although I have valid reason to seriously doubt the numbers for PC gaming. They assume that everyone is gaming using relatively high-powered desktop computers and large monitors, but even Steam stats alone debunk that - the majority of PC gamers play on potato systems.
@Oxford Guy - it may help if I clarify that my initial comment had nothing to do with component supply or video gaming, and everything to do with my *instinctive reaction* to news that the Chinese government are clamping down on crypto miners, based on my mutual (and no, not equal) dislike of both of those entities.
So much straw has been flung around since then that I can understand it might be difficult to perceive my intent.
How are Bitcoin wallets being seized? I get that you can ban the use of Bitcoin so that nobody in the country can officially offer it as an option but is there a way to seize the wallet? Or are they linking the wallet to an individual (not an impossible task) and then going after the individual? Or going after known large mining operations and seizing their wallets?
AMD, like nVidia, has their hands tied on capacity and they are unable to accurately project mass-availability, as both are married to, and only to, TSMC. While nVidia and AMD have long relationships with TSMC, it isn't unrealistic to point out the obvious: TSMC will produce for the highest bidder.
I don't understand why AMD is suffering from TSMC chip constraints, they should have ordered Global Foundries for the production of navi21, like Polaris, TSMS is buried in orders .
This. Navi is TSMC 7nm, porting it back to a lesser process is costly, takes time and is generally not a good idea. Rocketlake is a good indication why ...
@Oxford Guy - Used Hawaii cards are a good buy right now *because they are old and cheap* and because their performance has held up reasonably well over the years. This has absolutely no relevance to some speculative 12nm backport of RDNA 2. The idea makes no sense on any level.
Samsung have their own process (and Global Foundaries 14nm and 12nm are licensed and based on it), so it would no sense for Samsung to offer up such valuable IP (even at high price).
It's not like such fabs could pop-up overnight anyway. Hell, there aren't enough lithography machines available.
Hoping these turn out good, Nvidia has the issue that their move to Samsung meant no real power saving with the new generation, just way bigger dies with similar IPC, wouldn't work in a laptop.
So AMD finally has a proper chance to compete on near even footing in perf/watt.
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klatscho - Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - link
She did however mention that additional capacity would become available for GPU in the 2nd half of the year, so hopefully we see the current prices come down and more value products being launched.imaheadcase - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
That, and China is set to crack down on mining hard, actually already has started, but they are seizing vast bitcoin wallets already.ToTTenTranz - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
I think a more relevant contribution to higher availability of GPUs to consumers is Bitmain starting to sell an Ethereum miner that is ~4x more energy efficient than using GA102 GPUs.TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
That's going to make a huge impact.Spunjji - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
Torn between my dislike of the Chinese government's authoritarian bullshit and my dislike of miners.TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
Well my love of freedom is a little more important to me then being able to play the latest bing-bing-wahoo at 4k, so I'm going to go with being against the authoritarian bullshit. Besides, if they are banning mining for "wasting energy", then gaming should also be banned for the exact same reason. That is not a slippery slope anyone should encourage.KaarlisK - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
Not quite. Mining bitcoin has no benefit. Gaming benefits human happiness.DougMcC - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
One could reasonably argue that the people who got rich off mining bitcoins were made happier. After all money doesn't buy happiness, except for the 100% of times when it does.Morawka - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
China tells it's citizens to escape poverty by whatever means necessary. They run we markets that allow endangered species to be sold for food. They built some of the dirtiest coal plants in the world and in large numbers. The CCP really doesn't have any high ground here. I do wonder if the latest bearish trend on BTC has anything to do with these confiscated BTC wallets. The Chinease could be selling the confiscations immediately on the market.Spunjji - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
Your comment translated to plain English: "I don't know much about China, but I sure do have some conspiracy theories I want to marry to my casual xenophobia".TheinsanegamerN - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
Your comment translated to non woke - "I dislike how you are speaking the truth about a country I classify as full of minorities so I will throw labels at you in a vain attempt to sound better then you".Take your phobias and shove them.
Oxford Guy - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
No, it's 'freedom coal'.Mercury-induced small infant brain syndrome is, somehow, a human right and family value.
Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@TheinsangamerN - of course you think "woke" is an insult. 🙄No, I do not classify China as "full of minorities" because I'm not a racist and I understand how words work. I'm not attempting to sound better than anyone - vainly or otherwise - I'm pointing out bigoted bullshit. If you think bigoted bullshit makes a person sound worse than someone else, maybe reflect more on the bigot instead of jumping on me. If not, well, that speaks for itself.
Linustechtips12#6900xt - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
actually i have to cancel u sir that's a homophobicat_clucks - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
"Makes me happy" is really only a good justification if nobody gets hurt in the process. Otherwise Jack the Ripper could use it to claim "justified murder". Gaming probably uses *a lot* less electricity than cryptomining and "distributes" the happiness more evenly. So it's fair to say that for the society and the world in general crypto brought nothing of value and worse, it brought a massive net loss. For a few individuals who got rich off of that general loss it was a win. Still an overall massive net loss for humanity.And for those who insist on the hypothetical benefits of crypto, they stay solidly hypothetical. To this point crypto has seen massive usage as a speculative "get rich" tool, or for illegal activity. The legitimate uses are still on paper. The practical benefits of leisurely activities like gaming far outweigh the practical benefits of BTC.
TheinsanegamerN - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
Making money off of mining GPUs being humans happiness as well. Do you have a qualifier for how people should be allowed to enjoy their hardware, or a way to easure the amount of happiness?I also feel very happy when I use my crypto coins to support websites and creators I enjoy. How does that factor into your happiness equation?
Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@TheinsanegamerN - it's notable that your response to at_clucks completely ignored everything they said about the net lossed inherent to crypto (expending unnecessarily large amounts of power to move money around) and the hypothetical nature of the claimed benefits, and instead kept trying to hammer on that slippery slope argument you started out with. You know, the kind of argument that people only make when they don't have anything valid with which to defend their stance on a topic. 🤔Spunjji - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
Gaming has almost nothing to do with my dislike of miners - it's very much about the waste of power. It's a massive false equivalence (and a slippery slope of its own) to equate that with video gaming; I'll admit that don't actually know what the global power usage of video gaming is, but nobody does it literally 24/7, let alone running dozens of GPUs at the same time. People using power for their leisure time is also both morally and materially different from people burning power on pointless algorithms for the singular goal of enriching themselves at the expense of others.Crypto is inherently unsustainable, and the kind of people who do it can't be appealed to by any kind of rational argument about the common good, because what they're doing is already inherently irrational. There's no good solution to the problem they're causing.
Spunjji - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
I do enjoy the idea that we could "encourage" the Chinese government (or any other government) to engage in authoritarian behaviour, though. That's cute.TheinsanegamerN - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
So you admit you cant back up your argument yet call it a false equivalence anyway. Sounds like someone is a little fact-phobic.If crypto is someone's hobby or interest, it means the same to them as games do to a gamer. No false equivelance there.
Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@TheinsanegamerN - You *know* I'm not talking about "hobbyist" miners here. Why pretend otherwise, other than to be smug?I don't have facts to back it up because they don't exist. You probably also know this, which is why you haven't brought any to the discussion yourself. I'm admitting to the limitations of my knowledge, you're being a smug dipshit. QED.
aebiv - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
Generally, trying to discuss things with folks who are concerned about the "common good" instead of what is just "good" is a waste of time...Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@aebov - Okay then, ignore the "common good" and whatever you assumed I meant by that, because from context it's clear it's different from what I mean. Crypto mining is just not "good". Happy now? 🤷♂️Oxford Guy - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
Video gaming is a waste of power.Drag racing is a waste of power.
Television is a waste of power.
Movies are a waste of power.
Driving to visit relatives is a waste of power.
etc.
Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@Oxford Guy - you know slippery slope arguments aren't persuasive, right? I'm not making the argument that all things that use power are bad, I am specifically making the argument that a system that was designed to burn power in order to provide the illusion of value is a shitty system.Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
Valid analogies would be:Leaving your TV on all day with nobody watching is a waste of power.
Revving an engine all day and going nowhere is a waste of fuel.
You and our insane gamer friend seem to have a similar affection for false equivalences, rubbish rhetorical strategies, and unjustified faith in your own reasoning abilities.
Dug - Thursday, May 6, 2021 - link
I think you need to look up how much energy is used for mining. It's not even close to all of the computers running games.Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@dug The only estimates I've seen that came close to reasonable suggested the two are more similar than I thought, although I have valid reason to seriously doubt the numbers for PC gaming. They assume that everyone is gaming using relatively high-powered desktop computers and large monitors, but even Steam stats alone debunk that - the majority of PC gamers play on potato systems.Oxford Guy - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
'Torn between my dislike of the Chinese government's authoritarian bullshit and my dislike of miners.'Neither of which lie at the heart of the problem, as I have explained numerous times.
Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@Oxford Guy - it may help if I clarify that my initial comment had nothing to do with component supply or video gaming, and everything to do with my *instinctive reaction* to news that the Chinese government are clamping down on crypto miners, based on my mutual (and no, not equal) dislike of both of those entities.So much straw has been flung around since then that I can understand it might be difficult to perceive my intent.
at_clucks - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
How are Bitcoin wallets being seized? I get that you can ban the use of Bitcoin so that nobody in the country can officially offer it as an option but is there a way to seize the wallet? Or are they linking the wallet to an individual (not an impossible task) and then going after the individual? Or going after known large mining operations and seizing their wallets?Linustechtips12#6900xt - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
i mean they shouldn't take away the bitcoin but with there great firewall i don't get why they just don't block the signals tbhLinustechtips12#6900xt - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
OMG I have a great idea why doesn't USA use crypto to pay off its debt 🤯 with mining of courseSamus - Wednesday, May 5, 2021 - link
AMD, like nVidia, has their hands tied on capacity and they are unable to accurately project mass-availability, as both are married to, and only to, TSMC. While nVidia and AMD have long relationships with TSMC, it isn't unrealistic to point out the obvious: TSMC will produce for the highest bidder.Paramrai - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
I don't understand why AMD is suffering from TSMC chip constraints, they should have ordered Global Foundries for the production of navi21, like Polaris, TSMS is buried in orders .SaltyBiscuit - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
Global Foundries doesn't have the technology to produce all Navi chips. It's not like Polaris.klatscho - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
This. Navi is TSMC 7nm, porting it back to a lesser process is costly, takes time and is generally not a good idea. Rocketlake is a good indication why ...Oxford Guy - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
It would be a shame for consoles to be stuck with lesser hardware.yeeeeman - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
they use tsmc cause the process is very good.global foundries would turn them into a hot mess.
Tams80 - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
Global Foundaries best node is 12nm LP+ (14nm for HP). All FinFET. The former are based on Samsung's process and the latter licensed from Samsung.They abandoned their 7nm attempt and there hasn't been word of them trying again.
The only games in town are TSMC and Samsung. And Samsung's offering isn't as good (though still good).
Spunjji - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
Navi 21 on GloFo 12nm would be a comedy-bad product. Huge die, crushed clocks, not remotely competitive.Oxford Guy - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
'not remotely competitive.'You did read Hruska's article where he said used Hawaii cards are the best buy?
Spunjji - Tuesday, May 18, 2021 - link
@Oxford Guy - Used Hawaii cards are a good buy right now *because they are old and cheap* and because their performance has held up reasonably well over the years. This has absolutely no relevance to some speculative 12nm backport of RDNA 2. The idea makes no sense on any level.TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
GloFo doesnt have 7nm. At all. Pretty obvious why they are not being used.scineram - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
0 capacity would certainly help them out.Moron.
yeeeeman - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
a bit lateSmell This - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
C-mon, Van Gogh APU ...
Make it so, Doc !
nunya112 - Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - link
I wonder if samsung/glo fo could do an 8nm of and chips.... make the midrange at these fabs to take away constraint issues with TSMC ???supdawgwtfd - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
Samsung can't produce enough either...Hence team green having no cards as well.
Gloflo cannot help. They have not 8nm process. Best thry can do is 14nm which wouldn't work at all.
Tams80 - Thursday, April 29, 2021 - link
Samsung have their own process (and Global Foundaries 14nm and 12nm are licensed and based on it), so it would no sense for Samsung to offer up such valuable IP (even at high price).It's not like such fabs could pop-up overnight anyway. Hell, there aren't enough lithography machines available.
RSAUser - Friday, April 30, 2021 - link
Hoping these turn out good, Nvidia has the issue that their move to Samsung meant no real power saving with the new generation, just way bigger dies with similar IPC, wouldn't work in a laptop.So AMD finally has a proper chance to compete on near even footing in perf/watt.
tejaswani - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
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Oxford Guy - Sunday, May 9, 2021 - link
'AMD is continuing to ramp production of GPUs'Playstation or XBox?
(/snark)