The nForce4 chipset offers performance and features, which are very interesting for the gamer's community. At the same time, the nF4 is hot and noisy and, therefore, not appropriate for users who like the 'cool and quiet' option of AMD-based computers. For that folk the VIA and ATI solutions are better even now, when they are suffering from partly outdated southbridges. For me, right now, the 'Albatron K8X890 ProII' is the best home/office-intended A64 mainboard.
That's not an nForce limitation, it's the memory controller.
Most boards however will work at DDR400 but with a 2T command rate.
Again:
One minor correction: "Abit nForce4 Ultra (939) AN8"; the AN8 is an nForce4 non-Ultra board. The only ABIT nForce4 Ultra is the Fatal1ty, so far (they may release an AN8 Ultra).
LoneWolf15: From what was conveyed to me from the other writers at AT, the nForce4 Intel solution was definitely not ready. There is an analysis scheduled in the near future.
"Let's also not forget ATI's upcoming Intel SLI motherboard nor NVIDIA's (in)famous nForce4 Intel Edition. We will have some words on Intel nForce4 boards in the very near future, but from some of our preliminary trials, it seems that NVIDIA has a "nowhere near shipping" chipset. If we follow the evolutionary chain of paper launches over the last few years, maybe by this time next year, we will be introducing products shipping in 2007."
Unless I'm very much mistaken, HardOCP just did a preview on an NForce 4 Intel board. To be sure it's an nVidia reference board, but they had no stability issues and this would indicate to me that an NForce4 Intel solution is far closer to production than you suggest.
I agree, paper launching is a lousy thing, and we should hold manufacturers and vendors responsible for it; however I would guess we'll see these boards in the next six months, unless mainboard manufacturers are telling you something I don't know (which is of course possible).
At work I custom order and build all of my company's computers, probably building about 30 of them per year. I'm lucky that my company lets be do it all myself instead of just ordering Dell's, since I rather enjoy it. And I think you're wrong that PCIe video cards are less expensive than AGP.
Just go to Newegg and check AGP video card prices, discounting the obscure bargain brands since we want good 2D for business use, and no one knows what the $15 video card will be like:
The cheapest Radeon in AGP is $29.99 (Sapphire Radeon 7000), the cheapest GeForce is $33.99 (AOpen GeForce MX4000).
Now lets do the same thing for PCI Express:
The cheapest Radeon in PCIe is $64.00 (Sapphire Radeon X300 SE), and the cheapest GeForce is $61.50 (XFX GeForce 6200 w/TC).
All prices include shipping to the US.
As you can see, if 3D isn't a concern (like it isn't for me since I build computers for people to work on, not play games on, so I actually like to buy video cards with shitty 3D capabilities), and all you want is good 2D performance, you save $30 just from sticking with AGP over PCIe. And a Radeon 7000 is just as good at 2D as anything else sold in the past five years (or better).
If you want to talk about what's cheapest, PCIe not only isn't cheaper, its actually twice as expensive. I don't know how you can claim otherwise, since its impossible to find a PCIe video card of any variety at all at less than $55.
The MSI RS480 is a nice board. Esp for the price.
No overclocking features that I could find, but still a fast, cheap, stable board with good onboard video. Also, it's not a Radeon 9600 onboard. It's actually a X300. I'm surrpised the MSI board has no overclocking since all the ATI "Bullhead" sample boards had lots of overclocking. Also the onboard is pretty usable. World of Warcraft ran at 1280x104 with some of the features turned down fine.
While PCIe is technically better than AGP, most people don't see the technical differences. In addition, other than video card and may be some drive cards, there are virtually no PCIe card. PCIe video cards are no faster than AGP cards, so there is little or no compelling reason to upgrade except may be for SLI.
In general, I find it strange that a lot of the manufacturers have push hard for PCIe. My only guess is that it is cheaper to make a PCIe card than AGP. Both ATI and Nvidia have release PCIe only version, gotten lukewarm responses and had to create AGP versions.
I am also somewhat disappointed that VIA will not do a dual AGP and PCIe for the AMD. Even though PT880 Pro has been release, I haven't seen a single board that uses it.
#13, I think the core & memory speeds are slightly lower according to nvidia specs. I don't think there is a huge difference - other than price - when the cards are set to identical speeds.
What's more, card builders offer different timings for their models, so you cannot easily compare performance.
Could this be seen as a hidden push for buyers to choose PCIe?
#10 i am agree with u, i don't know why anandtech doesn't review all NF4 Ultra vs VIA K8T890. why we must wait so long ??? Please your comment anand....
"The ASUS A8N-E comes with one of the better feature sets available and also throws in some very good overclocking features for modest overclockers. "
a few words later...
"The Chaintech (VNF4 Ultra) board won’t set any speed records and leaves a little bit to the imagination as far as features, but if you just need a rock solid Socket 939 board, this is the one to have."
These two boards have the exact same featureset: what the nForce4 Ultra provides and nothing more (no Firewire, extra disk controllers, extra network controllers, etc). They also share similar overclocking options.
They're very similar but were described very differently. The ASUS has a better bundle (more cables) and is $30 more expensive.
"We feel that the NVIDIA based boards are a little more stable and readily available at this point"
More readily available, yes. More stable, what?
I haven't seen any problems (and definataly no drivers/BIOS issues) on the few K8T890 available, so I don't know what makes the nForce more stable.
Perhaps AnandTech has some results from in-house reviews, but now comes my final comment...
how come there's so little coverage of AMD PCI-E boards here at AnandTech? No review of the ATI, VIA or SiS chipsets... basically no nForce4 Ultra production boards (only DFI). I have no idea what the problem is, but I have to say I'm disapointed.
One minor correction: "Abit nForce4 Ultra (939) AN8"; the AN8 is an nForce4 non-Ultra board. The only ABIT nForce4 Ultra is the Fatal1ty, so far (they may release an AN8 Ultra).
The problem with AGP was that it was a quck fix for a specific problem, which then had extra features bolted onto it along with doubling the speed a few times whenever it needed to be updated, making for a very picky and potentially unstable solution.
Remember all those problems with crashed systems and drivers complaining of infinite-loops? If so you'll be glad AGP is on its way out and being replaced with a much better designed and future-proofed replacement.
What was so terrible about AGP? I've never felt there anything inherently wrong with AGP, especially seeing as video cards never even got close to using up its bandwidth.
I'm training myself to both skip the 1st post and to skip anything that begins with "In Sov....."
I'm getting better at it.
I do believe it's unfortunate that these Comment posts have become so adolescent. It wastes the time of adults who have a genuine interest in the topic.
For those "first post" addicts, try doing a first post in the forums. You can always be the first poster there. Of course there you'd probably get a vacation from the forums.
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Ivo - Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - link
The nForce4 chipset offers performance and features, which are very interesting for the gamer's community. At the same time, the nF4 is hot and noisy and, therefore, not appropriate for users who like the 'cool and quiet' option of AMD-based computers. For that folk the VIA and ATI solutions are better even now, when they are suffering from partly outdated southbridges. For me, right now, the 'Albatron K8X890 ProII' is the best home/office-intended A64 mainboard.ChineseDemocracyGNR - Thursday, April 14, 2005 - link
That's not an nForce limitation, it's the memory controller.Most boards however will work at DDR400 but with a 2T command rate.
Again:
One minor correction: "Abit nForce4 Ultra (939) AN8"; the AN8 is an nForce4 non-Ultra board. The only ABIT nForce4 Ultra is the Fatal1ty, so far (they may release an AN8 Ultra).
essjae - Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - link
What about teh nforce memory limitation? If you have 4 double-sided DIMMs, the speed drops from 400 to 333.How many single-sided 512MB and 1024MB DIMMs are really out there?
That was the deciding factor for me to go with VIA and not nForce, I have 4 512MB TwinX DIMMs that I wanted to use.
KristopherKubicki - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
LoneWolf15: From what was conveyed to me from the other writers at AT, the nForce4 Intel solution was definitely not ready. There is an analysis scheduled in the near future.Kristopher
LoneWolf15 - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
Taken from the article:"Let's also not forget ATI's upcoming Intel SLI motherboard nor NVIDIA's (in)famous nForce4 Intel Edition. We will have some words on Intel nForce4 boards in the very near future, but from some of our preliminary trials, it seems that NVIDIA has a "nowhere near shipping" chipset. If we follow the evolutionary chain of paper launches over the last few years, maybe by this time next year, we will be introducing products shipping in 2007."
Unless I'm very much mistaken, HardOCP just did a preview on an NForce 4 Intel board. To be sure it's an nVidia reference board, but they had no stability issues and this would indicate to me that an NForce4 Intel solution is far closer to production than you suggest.
I agree, paper launching is a lousy thing, and we should hold manufacturers and vendors responsible for it; however I would guess we'll see these boards in the next six months, unless mainboard manufacturers are telling you something I don't know (which is of course possible).
EODetroit - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
At work I custom order and build all of my company's computers, probably building about 30 of them per year. I'm lucky that my company lets be do it all myself instead of just ordering Dell's, since I rather enjoy it. And I think you're wrong that PCIe video cards are less expensive than AGP.Just go to Newegg and check AGP video card prices, discounting the obscure bargain brands since we want good 2D for business use, and no one knows what the $15 video card will be like:
The cheapest Radeon in AGP is $29.99 (Sapphire Radeon 7000), the cheapest GeForce is $33.99 (AOpen GeForce MX4000).
Now lets do the same thing for PCI Express:
The cheapest Radeon in PCIe is $64.00 (Sapphire Radeon X300 SE), and the cheapest GeForce is $61.50 (XFX GeForce 6200 w/TC).
All prices include shipping to the US.
As you can see, if 3D isn't a concern (like it isn't for me since I build computers for people to work on, not play games on, so I actually like to buy video cards with shitty 3D capabilities), and all you want is good 2D performance, you save $30 just from sticking with AGP over PCIe. And a Radeon 7000 is just as good at 2D as anything else sold in the past five years (or better).
If you want to talk about what's cheapest, PCIe not only isn't cheaper, its actually twice as expensive. I don't know how you can claim otherwise, since its impossible to find a PCIe video card of any variety at all at less than $55.
NordicNINE - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
The MSI RS480 is a nice board. Esp for the price.No overclocking features that I could find, but still a fast, cheap, stable board with good onboard video. Also, it's not a Radeon 9600 onboard. It's actually a X300. I'm surrpised the MSI board has no overclocking since all the ATI "Bullhead" sample boards had lots of overclocking. Also the onboard is pretty usable. World of Warcraft ran at 1280x104 with some of the features turned down fine.
paulsiu - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
While PCIe is technically better than AGP, most people don't see the technical differences. In addition, other than video card and may be some drive cards, there are virtually no PCIe card. PCIe video cards are no faster than AGP cards, so there is little or no compelling reason to upgrade except may be for SLI.In general, I find it strange that a lot of the manufacturers have push hard for PCIe. My only guess is that it is cheaper to make a PCIe card than AGP. Both ATI and Nvidia have release PCIe only version, gotten lukewarm responses and had to create AGP versions.
I am also somewhat disappointed that VIA will not do a dual AGP and PCIe for the AMD. Even though PT880 Pro has been release, I haven't seen a single board that uses it.
yde - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
#13, I think the core & memory speeds are slightly lower according to nvidia specs. I don't think there is a huge difference - other than price - when the cards are set to identical speeds.What's more, card builders offer different timings for their models, so you cannot easily compare performance.
Could this be seen as a hidden push for buyers to choose PCIe?
arfan - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
Is it true that AGP much slower benchmark than PCI in the same chipset (example 6600GT AGP vs 6600GT PCI) ?arfan - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
#10 i am agree with u, i don't know why anandtech doesn't review all NF4 Ultra vs VIA K8T890. why we must wait so long ??? Please your comment anand....knitecrow - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
Forget VIA, I am waiting for the ATI athlon64 chipsets myself.Those should be good.
ChineseDemocracyGNR - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
I have a few comments... :)"The ASUS A8N-E comes with one of the better feature sets available and also throws in some very good overclocking features for modest overclockers. "
a few words later...
"The Chaintech (VNF4 Ultra) board won’t set any speed records and leaves a little bit to the imagination as far as features, but if you just need a rock solid Socket 939 board, this is the one to have."
These two boards have the exact same featureset: what the nForce4 Ultra provides and nothing more (no Firewire, extra disk controllers, extra network controllers, etc). They also share similar overclocking options.
They're very similar but were described very differently. The ASUS has a better bundle (more cables) and is $30 more expensive.
"We feel that the NVIDIA based boards are a little more stable and readily available at this point"
More readily available, yes. More stable, what?
I haven't seen any problems (and definataly no drivers/BIOS issues) on the few K8T890 available, so I don't know what makes the nForce more stable.
Perhaps AnandTech has some results from in-house reviews, but now comes my final comment...
how come there's so little coverage of AMD PCI-E boards here at AnandTech? No review of the ATI, VIA or SiS chipsets... basically no nForce4 Ultra production boards (only DFI). I have no idea what the problem is, but I have to say I'm disapointed.
One minor correction: "Abit nForce4 Ultra (939) AN8"; the AN8 is an nForce4 non-Ultra board. The only ABIT nForce4 Ultra is the Fatal1ty, so far (they may release an AN8 Ultra).
arfan - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
In Indonesia DFI NF4 Ultra sell $200 and DFI NF4 SLI $220 :((flatblastard - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
I agree #7....better to ditch AGP now, rather than put up with the hassle of instability at the end of a technology lifecycle.PrinceGaz - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
The problem with AGP was that it was a quck fix for a specific problem, which then had extra features bolted onto it along with doubling the speed a few times whenever it needed to be updated, making for a very picky and potentially unstable solution.Remember all those problems with crashed systems and drivers complaining of infinite-loops? If so you'll be glad AGP is on its way out and being replaced with a much better designed and future-proofed replacement.
mongoosesRawesome - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
What was so terrible about AGP? I've never felt there anything inherently wrong with AGP, especially seeing as video cards never even got close to using up its bandwidth.bupkus - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
I'm training myself to both skip the 1st post and to skip anything that begins with "In Sov....."I'm getting better at it.
I do believe it's unfortunate that these Comment posts have become so adolescent. It wastes the time of adults who have a genuine interest in the topic.
For those "first post" addicts, try doing a first post in the forums. You can always be the first poster there. Of course there you'd probably get a vacation from the forums.
AnandThenMan - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
In Soviet Russia, when first person post "first post" he get last request.I can't believe how far VIA has fallen out of favour. Wonder what their market share numbers are lately.
screech - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
@#1:First intelligent poster! (other then #2 of course)
flatblastard - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
I hope to see more motherboards with ATI chipsets for AMD soon. That MSIRS480 is really tempting me to ditch intel....for real.StormGod - Sunday, April 10, 2005 - link
First post!