Is AVX power data relevant without including performance? If the performance is wildly different anyway. i hope there is other power information in the review. eg. what normal usage would produce.
Indeed, knowing performance per watt, in addition to the power consumption within different usage scenarios is particularly useful.
If AVX-512 uses twice as much power, but offers 5 times the performance of another processor, this should be a good thing, instead of just comparing the maximum consumption between the two processors.
Additionally, if the typical consumption for non AVX-512 is considerably less than 300w, then it should be compared at that wattage in those workloads.
Power peaks at 275W and temps at over 100C. Performance per watt is a great metric but after a certain point it's less relevant. If peak power was 1KW but performance was 5 times better. Perf per watt is even better but would it even matter?
Most likely on most boards the power and temps will be lower but so will performance. What we see above is probably close to as good as the CPUs will perform.
But here we are not speaking about 1KW was 100W for 11 time the performance, but a less than double the power for as much as 5.6x the performance, which undoubtedly is quite a BIG improvement in perf/W metrics. If you do not want to consider the AVX-512 benchmark to have that much validity because there are not so many application using them, you then just have to forget about those 225W as well.
BTW: as said in the previous article comments, new motherboards and new BIOS would have changed the behavior of this CPU. Here we have a 3% performance trade off for as much as 60W of saved power. Which is not that bad, considering that the results are still way faster than those you can achieve with the AMD CPU using the same total energy for a given work.
Speaking about the absolute power peak (which is a peak and not a sustained power consumption) and then not referring to the results of that power consumption is clearly a way of cheating people when you try to have a point.
" Speaking about the absolute power peak (which is a peak and not a sustained power consumption) and then not referring to the results of that power consumption is clearly a way of cheating people when you try to have a point. " kind of like how intel rates it TDP ?
CiccioB, you missed the actual point just like in the discussion where you were insistently claiming (in probably at least 50 separate comments) that AT broke some unwritten rule and is misinforming people by launching the review of a CPU before it was officially on retail channels. Your understanding was that those CPUs are somehow "engineering samples", not actual final silicon already in stock waiting for the official start of sales date.
I say this to set the bar for *your* way of making the point and your bias level.
Now back to my point, at 100+C and 275W peak power consumption it's nowhere near the threshold for *good* perf/watt ratio for most people. My closing statement said as much: this is the best case performance the CPU will ever exhibit, at unlocked power levels. In most implementations the power will be capped which will lead to lower performance. Meaning it will lose yet a few more percent against its main competitor which already has a good perf/watt ratio.
So beyond making up some explanations why 100+C is actually OK, and 275W is "just" peak, and how somehow despite all this it's still not the "top of the pile" CPU but it's ok because with some tweaking it can lose even more performance but save some power, I don't really know if you were actually contradicting me.
Just to be clear, I don't think it's a *bad* CPU. But I don't think it's a *good* one either. It can't really be, it's a 10nm design backported for 14nm, with a bad TDP, with far from outstanding performance. Its redeeming quality is probably that it will be available in retail, unlike AMD's offering.
No, it *is* a bad CPU, even if you do not care about power and thermals. If you *do* care about them -and it makes no sense not to- then it is a *horrible* CPU. There is a very good reason CPUs and GPUs requires smaller process nodes every few years. Intel just released a "new" design (which was a mix of Ice Lake and Tiger Lake) fabbed on a 2014 process node.
Everyone knew that Rocket Lake was going to double as a stove, particularly since Intel needed to push the clocks beyond the process node's and the design's limits in order to compete with AMD's Zen 3 parts, at least only in performance. And, even in performance at overvoltaged levels, they do not compete. Now their only chance is to compete in price; the rabid Intel fanboys will blindly buy whatever Intel releases at whatever price but they are not enough to compete with AMD.
Thanks Ian! Appreciate the update, and the explanation. I have and had one question about the power draw when using AVX512 and AVX2: Isn't that also (to some extent) adjustable by the user? Don't the 590 Chipsets allow setting a lower TDP (also peak) and/or temperature? The way I understand your power draw numbers is that the CPUs are allowed to go as fast as the BIOS, the overtemp protection, and the cooling solution permit (maximum). So, if someone runs software that utilizes AVX2 or 512 a lot and would rather sacrifice a few percent of the top speed for better power/perf, is that possible? I would like to see a follow-up on that: where is the local power/perf minimum (or performance/power maximum) for AVX 512 with Rocket Lake and maybe Tiger Lake?
More 3rd party benchmarks are needed to see if the IPC gains did Intel any favors of the game performance and the HT as well. Both the X570/Z590 and B550/Z490 are end of life hardware but they are super refined. So buying them any of the HW as per needs is the best than waiting for the DDR5 and Gen5 because those will be generation one products, expect high cost, low volume, not much worth the cash investment.
As for AT, I would again request it would be really great if you guys can do a final Win7 install on these new platforms please, like the old times you did, https://www.anandtech.com/show/11182/how-to-get-ry... and both RDNA2, Ampere support Win7, plus even M$ updates Win7 too, you can even select to remove the spyware.
Win10 will get new updates more with the Alder Lake launch of that bullshit Biglittle in Desktop, and the new OS will definitely be updated to DDR5/Gen5 and etc so expect more stability problems and what not like forced updates and Microcode patches, esp on the mobile side Intel blocked voltage control for the 11th gen U series processors, and Plundervolt SGX patch nuked so many machines of the Undervolting, people are being left out with less and less choice and AMD mobile platform doesn't have space to tweak and all.
Anyways as for Alder Lake would they need a low power Atom based x86 core when you can have a superior SMT/HT on the normal x86 core. AMD's Zen 4 won't have any of that bs drama, so that is looking bright, having 10nm concerns from Intel fab engineering. The only reason is loss of the HT/SMT crown. No matter what Intel is trying to do they clearly lost the edge of Hyperthreading which was first huge blow to AMD back then, now the roles are reversed completely, AMD's ultimate domination on that end.
On the AMD chipset BSOD errors and USB issues, AMD is pushing new update as a BIOS fix for the X570 and B550 platforms, it would be good if Anandtech can get what is the information and how this issue existed and what did they do to fix it, since it is a big thing to have USB stability esp on such a platform.
Do you even know that Win7 works great on Ryzen platform, even the Zen 3 CPUs on B550 and X570 boards (except ASRock) and Z390, Z490 as well. Z490 Dark EVGA can run Win7 as well and the Intel LAN 2.5G which is i225-v which is having only Win10 drivers works on Win7 with INF mod, perhaps how about the NT Lite to mod the Win7 ISO and install the updates with Slipstreaming the required drivers and ultimately run Win7 on latest HW with CSM+UEFI option in BIOS, if all fails, a PCIe expansion slot for SATA and get Win7 onto there. Everything is possible.
Well unfortunately you are too dumb to even think what is possible and what people are losing with Win10 instead of Win7, latter is where User actually owns their PC / HW which they bought for hardwork cash.
Anandtech if they do this it would not just be a technical showcase but a damn gift to all the PC enthusiast fans, Win7 on latest 2021 HW.
You are really naive and dumb lol, unsupported ? What the fuck you are talking about. Win7 has Ampere and RDNA2 latest drivers, M$ has proper updates for Win7, Chrome and Firefox update their latest browsers. What again is unsupported.. Just move on when you do not have absolutely anything to add.
M$ has people like you who are really cattle which is why that atrocious Win10 which is a permanent beta OS is getting all traction despite having damn HW borking and Filesystem breaking bugs every damn week.
You are a complete dumbarse. Windows XP is CLEARLY superior to windows 7 and can be customized with like browsers and stuff, Totally a legit OS in 2021 XD.
To those who are trying to capture the old look and feeling on W10 (like me), there are a couple of things one can do. OpenShell for the Start menu; ShutUp10 helps to tone down some undesirable behavior; and a bit of adjustment here and there can get it looking very close to XP/7, surprisingly. I brought back QuickLaunch, disabled that ugly search box on the taskbar, and minimised the Ribbon in Explorer.
SilverSurfer, I understand your sentiment and used to feel the same way, but 10's not so bad after a bit of tweaking. Also, W8's file-copy box and Task Manager are sheer gold.
Using an OS that is 12 years old that has security holes big enough to drive a semi through them is not a good idea. What exactly are people losing with Win 10 vs Win 7? Unless you mean we are losing out on a more buggy OS, lower performance, long boot times, lack of a modern UI, less functionality, etc... While the GPUs have driver support for Win 7, B550 & X570 do not have drivers with official support.
For modern UI you mean the one that looks different depending on the preference panel you open and from where? For modern UI you mean that boring solid color flat square based interface that MS is trying to put away reintroducing shades and transparency? For buggy OS you mean the one that regularly stops working at each useless update each time for "banality" like file system losing partition, deleting personal documents, being unable to print and so on? For security holes are you talking about all those security patches that are constantly provide to try to close all the holes that leaks like a sieve? Longer time boots are those you have when comparing Win10 with a NVE drive vs Win7 with a mechanical 5200RPM hard disk? Less functionalities are? Those that break each update? Or can be done better with a dedicated tool? The fact that I have to periodically insert the bitlocker code to boot my notebook because the "modern OS" thinks I have removed/added some device from it?
You are so full of crap it's not even funny. You come across very emotional and it's clouding your judgement. You can't cope with change, that's fine, but stop spreading misinformation online.
As "TheinsanegamerN" says, you should be looking at Linux if you want something other than Windows 10 in 2021.
You are so ignorant about computer science that you thing "new = better".
You can live with it but stop spreading lies about the usefulness of the new OS, which is a damnation for any medium sized company that has to adopt it.
BTW, I use Win10, Win7 and Linux every day. You can continue using your preferred gaming OS (an OS that comes with XBox services and games installed in its professional version is just a joke, not doubts and no need it to be defended for all the other new stupid things it came with).
>gift to all the PC enthusiast fans, Win7 on latest 2021 HW.
Yes, all three of you. Back in the real world, how about you pick an OS which isn't insecure, is supported by more than just critical patches, and which isn't already obsolete?
If you hate MS that much just install Linux. Sheesh.
HT was born as a "hack" of the basic design that allowed Intel to execute two threads on the same core. At the time Intel cited that the HT support in their core cost them "5% of transistor count" with respect to the transistor used for the core. So with a cost of 5% of the core size they gave the feature to support a second thread that could give up to twice the performance. Even tough it was quite rare it could do so, with an average contribution more near 30-40%.
Now things have surely changed and core front and back ends complexity probably does not require only 5% of core transistor count to give support to a second thread. So the general idea is how many transistors (and design complexity) are required to have that 30-40% average performance improvement.
As you can see ARM has never designed a core with a dual thread support. They rely on smaller, simpler, faster, less power hungry designs with more predictable performance. And they are not shy of performance (as a powerful implementation done by Apple demonstrates) and even less shy of available cores. Being smaller they can put more in the same area, even though each of them perform a little less that a bigger core which may use up to 3 or 4 the amount of transistors.
Given that Alder Lake small core design is not an "Atom design" as you may intend as being "the poor slow useless brother" of the bigger one, but it is reported by Intel itself to have an IPC near Skylake core (so near to the same core IPC you are using today), it may be that these little cores can just be an hindrance for Windows/Linux schedulers (that have to decide how to manage them for which job and instruction support) more than a real performance limiters if well managed.
They are also the first try to have real heterogeneous computation in X86 systems with support to different cores that the OS has to support. A preview of what may be needed when Intel will use their MCM solutions with possibly different chiplet mix (high single thread performance cores, low single thread performance cores but at higher number for better multi threading performance tasks, GPU and on Xeon maybe even some sort of FPGA ASICS or highly specialized cores for particular tasks, also improving, I may say finally, customization).
No Apple M1 is not powerful as it shows. Ryzen already beat it and now with upcoming U series BGA Renoir it will be left in dust.
And too many assumptions out of thin air, MCM and Intel ? Chiplet ? FPGA ? do these exist or even remotely have any product showcase, no they do not. AMD already reinforced they are not chasing this dumb trend of the Big Little joke on the Desktop. EPYC and Icelake do you see them ? Nope we do not. Until the big enterprises get this improvement and massive change in efficiency and fast design, it is nothing. Agilex (Intel) and Xilinx acq by AMD yeah we all know but there has to be products. ADL is simply trying to achieve 8C16T on their new cores whatever lake and add a bunch of trash cores, to bloat up the lost SMT performance, 8C16T+8C of low power cores, that will at max beat the 11700K or a 5800X but no way it's going to beat the 5950X, that is a big thing if Intel can really do that. Esp on a troubled node history 10nm on top. The fact that these do not exist on Server market clearly shows how Intel is literally in shambles, if they had them, which proves their confidence (like how AMD did with MCM)
My view is that this big/little is a mistake on Intel's part, and they will learn the hard way. Their efforts are better spent working on a single design but toning down its power, dynamically, as much as possible.
On the other hand, leaving aside big/little for a moment, Gracemont seems to have some novel ideas. It's possible this lower-power design, taken further, could become their chief one in the future. Pentium M, anyone? Or, some of the tricks tested out in GM, could be worked into their main architecture.
So Apple M1 is not fast because Zen3 in its monolithic form is (probably) faster? A F1 car that arrive in second place is not fast because it was not first? Maybe with half the cylinders and a smaller tank?
As power consumption seems to be the base for comparing AMD vs Intel, what are the power consumption of the new Zen3 dies vs the consumption of the M1? How many full featured cores does the Zen3 have, and how many the M1? And in which configuration? Ouch, yes they are.. drum roll, 4 big and 4 small! Not that bad, are they? And in M1 size and power consumption you have to add all those specialized parts that are not present on AMD APU and, if ever present, are in the external chipset (like Thunderbold, you know.. the fast interface the AMD doesn't provide at all but through... drum rolls... Intel chip! Plus the SATA and USB interfaces).
Despite your try to have a point, M1 cores ARE FAST, and they are not SMT//CMP/HT or whatever.
I think you believe Intel approach to MCM will be the same AMD did, that is one single chiplet for everyone but APUs (And they are not chiplets at all. Guess why?) but it may surprise you as Intel has other more complex and also some simpler (less power hungry) ways to connect dies. AMD Xilinx acquisition was not something made by chance. It will take time for AMD to get something good out of it (if ever, seen the poor skills AMD has ever shown in anything outside x86 design, often also failing in that) but they are probably pointing to the same target, that is providing some sort of better and easier customization (than to embed it into the chip for each customer = costs in developing, masks and all the QA chain just for few thousands pieces each or bigger designs with all in but disabled part depending on the customer = more costs and worse yields). You know that Intel already provides Xeon with integrated FPGA, do you? What is so strange to think they could provide that by a separate chiplet in a MCM architecture? Just because AMD can't develop more than 2 dies per generation without going bankruptcy does not mean others cannot create more (and different) ways to exploit the MCM designs. By introducing (real) heterogeneous computational parts that Linux/Windows have to handle they just pave the road for the future (some years since now).
I think Intel is thinking beyond the simple "more cores for everyone" even if they do not really need them or even when more core = slower frequencies to not melt everything and with scaling advantage even going slim and slim as you add cores (and make them slower).
When you reach a big enough number of cores in the mainstram market you have two chances to sell more: 1. hope that all applications become so multi threaded that the number of cores you have already sold are not enough to handle them, and at the same time they provide faster performance (not that obvious) so you can sell a bigger CPU 2. hope to continuously increase IPC/frequencies to increase the performance to the same user with the same thread limited apps
I can't see any of those become real, so guess who is preparing for then next era?
1) Typo, should have said L2 2) I replaced the graph last minute with more accurate data; had some frequency fluctuations to take care of. Forgot to adjust the ext. 3) The graph shows cycles, not nanoseconds.
Alienware having a non-X 5900 as an upgrade option for a pre built OEM system is not proof that there are going to be non-X 5900's in the retail market.
Just look at the Renoir desktop APUs (4650G etc), they exist, you can buy them, but there are no boxed versions. For AMD, their purpose is exclusively for pre built OEM systems.
Not saying that a retail non X boxed 5900 couldn't happen, but that's just no proof.
It's near enough within the standard spread spectrum to vary. This has been a critical point over the last decade, MB vendors used to mess with it, but it's all very standard now to be within +/- 1 MHz.
The problem is, the improvement is small enough that it can be explained almost entirely by a 1MHz higher BCLK. This is not an issue if you test everything on the same board, but it is when you switch between brands.
This was still a thing a few years ago. IIRC GN found the MSI Z390 Godlike to run BCLK at 100.8MHz. I haven’t seen anything on the topic since then, but that wasn’t too long ago.
Thanks for the update. To be honest I'm still not convinced that DRAM speeds make no difference here. That leaked slide states "I9-11900K(F) SKUs are DDR4-3200 Gear 1. All other SKUs are DDR4-3200 Gear 2. DDR4-2933 is Gear 1". Gear down simply puts address/control/command signal on every other rising edge of a clock (keeping data as 1:1). We don't know what you used to checked "DDR4-3200 does appear to be the 1:1 mode" for the case, but a simple side-by-side test with 2933 on both platforms would be very welcomed and clear up all concerns on this,
Seems like everyone wants to pick at crumbs to make this release seem relevant.
Too bad for AMD that it can’t ship as many Zen 3 chips as demand asks for.
Too bad for us that we don’t have adequate competition in this space and the foundry space (and the GPU space) and the search space and the (rinse, repeat)...
i mean 5800x and 5600x have both caught up to demand because their value sucks ass. the 10700k is on average 5-10% worse in games, with a 40% Cost difference. the 10 core 10850k is 13% cheaper with 2 more cores, and only around 3-6% slower on average in games and ahead in some games. Buying AMD makes no sense and you have to either be a fanboy or have no sense of value. 5950 and 5900x are still the best, mostly because they have no competition.
I think you need to look at the overall picture and I concur, it would be great if AMD Cpu's were cheaper but it's the market that determines the price and vendors can price them high because the demand is more than they can produce. To reiterate, it's not just the gaming, AMD cpus run cooler and have superior multi-threading performance and there's continuity, one format works down the line for 3-4 generations of cpu, AMD averages 4-5 years, while Intel you're likely to change your motherboard for your next upgrade.
There is no (desktop) Tiger Lake, and Alder Lake will be the pivotal moment for Intel. Because if Intel can't bring competition this year, then what will?
Rocket Lake is exactly what Tiger Lake desktop should have been - but Intel 10nm didn't seem that for desktop class power envelop, hence why 10nm is still limited to server and laptop parts.
Even Alder Lake's design is curious on this front - limiting number of 10nm big cores to 8 seems like a workaround for 10nm's power issues more than anything else. Time will tell I guess.
Sometimes, even a workaround solution can be learned to bring new innovations. Hopefully after their rocky launch of Rocket Lake, Intel can move forward.
Good to see Anandtech update the results with the new microcode. To be honest, I agree with the first paragraph of your conclusion, and I wasn't expecting a microcode to make a whole lot of difference. At least I don't recall historically I've seen any significant performance uplift just by means of microcode changes. I don't really care about those UP TO xx% improvements because in most cases, they don't make much difference.
Great to see this update! Really happy that you're staying at the leading edge of this analysis. Thanks, Ian.
In terms of the product itself, going from a performance regression in games to performance equity with the previous generation is not terribly encouraging. It looks like we'll have to wait until later this year to see if they can finally push a noticeable gaming performance improvement from Skylake.
Thanks. Might have been interesting to try the 1B microcode as well to provide a more apples to apples comparison (though of course other things might have changed in the bios as well).
Honestly I'd love to see a article on motherboard performance (rather than feature) differences as well. Your reviews show little performance differences between boards, but you are normally comparing pretty similar products. Your motherboard recommendation articles on the other hand act like you'd be insane to buy even a low end Z590, let alone lower end chipsets, and I'd be curious to see how true that is.
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Azix - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Is AVX power data relevant without including performance? If the performance is wildly different anyway. i hope there is other power information in the review. eg. what normal usage would produce.MatthewL - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Indeed, knowing performance per watt, in addition to the power consumption within different usage scenarios is particularly useful.If AVX-512 uses twice as much power, but offers 5 times the performance of another processor, this should be a good thing, instead of just comparing the maximum consumption between the two processors.
Additionally, if the typical consumption for non AVX-512 is considerably less than 300w, then it should be compared at that wattage in those workloads.
thsrj - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
lol MatthewMatthewL - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Very insightful, thank you for your contributionat_clucks - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Power peaks at 275W and temps at over 100C. Performance per watt is a great metric but after a certain point it's less relevant. If peak power was 1KW but performance was 5 times better. Perf per watt is even better but would it even matter?Most likely on most boards the power and temps will be lower but so will performance. What we see above is probably close to as good as the CPUs will perform.
CiccioB - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
But here we are not speaking about 1KW was 100W for 11 time the performance, but a less than double the power for as much as 5.6x the performance, which undoubtedly is quite a BIG improvement in perf/W metrics.If you do not want to consider the AVX-512 benchmark to have that much validity because there are not so many application using them, you then just have to forget about those 225W as well.
BTW: as said in the previous article comments, new motherboards and new BIOS would have changed the behavior of this CPU. Here we have a 3% performance trade off for as much as 60W of saved power. Which is not that bad, considering that the results are still way faster than those you can achieve with the AMD CPU using the same total energy for a given work.
Speaking about the absolute power peak (which is a peak and not a sustained power consumption) and then not referring to the results of that power consumption is clearly a way of cheating people when you try to have a point.
Qasar - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
" Speaking about the absolute power peak (which is a peak and not a sustained power consumption) and then not referring to the results of that power consumption is clearly a way of cheating people when you try to have a point. "kind of like how intel rates it TDP ?
at_clucks - Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - link
CiccioB, you missed the actual point just like in the discussion where you were insistently claiming (in probably at least 50 separate comments) that AT broke some unwritten rule and is misinforming people by launching the review of a CPU before it was officially on retail channels. Your understanding was that those CPUs are somehow "engineering samples", not actual final silicon already in stock waiting for the official start of sales date.I say this to set the bar for *your* way of making the point and your bias level.
Now back to my point, at 100+C and 275W peak power consumption it's nowhere near the threshold for *good* perf/watt ratio for most people. My closing statement said as much: this is the best case performance the CPU will ever exhibit, at unlocked power levels. In most implementations the power will be capped which will lead to lower performance. Meaning it will lose yet a few more percent against its main competitor which already has a good perf/watt ratio.
So beyond making up some explanations why 100+C is actually OK, and 275W is "just" peak, and how somehow despite all this it's still not the "top of the pile" CPU but it's ok because with some tweaking it can lose even more performance but save some power, I don't really know if you were actually contradicting me.
at_clucks - Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - link
Just to be clear, I don't think it's a *bad* CPU. But I don't think it's a *good* one either. It can't really be, it's a 10nm design backported for 14nm, with a bad TDP, with far from outstanding performance. Its redeeming quality is probably that it will be available in retail, unlike AMD's offering.Santoval - Thursday, March 18, 2021 - link
No, it *is* a bad CPU, even if you do not care about power and thermals. If you *do* care about them -and it makes no sense not to- then it is a *horrible* CPU. There is a very good reason CPUs and GPUs requires smaller process nodes every few years. Intel just released a "new" design (which was a mix of Ice Lake and Tiger Lake) fabbed on a 2014 process node.Everyone knew that Rocket Lake was going to double as a stove, particularly since Intel needed to push the clocks beyond the process node's and the design's limits in order to compete with AMD's Zen 3 parts, at least only in performance. And, even in performance at overvoltaged levels, they do not compete. Now their only chance is to compete in price; the rabid Intel fanboys will blindly buy whatever Intel releases at whatever price but they are not enough to compete with AMD.
Jorgp2 - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
He already stated power consumption is unlocked with these CPUs.Performance will vary wildly if you have a motherboard with power limits enabled
RU482 - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
lol, or a power supply that limits yoummrezaie - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
AVX-512 is complicated. This blog talks about how much difference does avx-512 make.https://travisdowns.github.io/blog/2020/08/19/icl-...
Crazyeyeskillah - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
They already posted a review last week XDZucker2k - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
How did you calculate a performance delta of 3% at 'peak' power?eastcoast_pete - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Thanks Ian! Appreciate the update, and the explanation. I have and had one question about the power draw when using AVX512 and AVX2: Isn't that also (to some extent) adjustable by the user? Don't the 590 Chipsets allow setting a lower TDP (also peak) and/or temperature? The way I understand your power draw numbers is that the CPUs are allowed to go as fast as the BIOS, the overtemp protection, and the cooling solution permit (maximum). So, if someone runs software that utilizes AVX2 or 512 a lot and would rather sacrifice a few percent of the top speed for better power/perf, is that possible? I would like to see a follow-up on that: where is the local power/perf minimum (or performance/power maximum) for AVX 512 with Rocket Lake and maybe Tiger Lake?Silver5urfer - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
More 3rd party benchmarks are needed to see if the IPC gains did Intel any favors of the game performance and the HT as well. Both the X570/Z590 and B550/Z490 are end of life hardware but they are super refined. So buying them any of the HW as per needs is the best than waiting for the DDR5 and Gen5 because those will be generation one products, expect high cost, low volume, not much worth the cash investment.As for AT, I would again request it would be really great if you guys can do a final Win7 install on these new platforms please, like the old times you did, https://www.anandtech.com/show/11182/how-to-get-ry... and both RDNA2, Ampere support Win7, plus even M$ updates Win7 too, you can even select to remove the spyware.
Win10 will get new updates more with the Alder Lake launch of that bullshit Biglittle in Desktop, and the new OS will definitely be updated to DDR5/Gen5 and etc so expect more stability problems and what not like forced updates and Microcode patches, esp on the mobile side Intel blocked voltage control for the 11th gen U series processors, and Plundervolt SGX patch nuked so many machines of the Undervolting, people are being left out with less and less choice and AMD mobile platform doesn't have space to tweak and all.
Anyways as for Alder Lake would they need a low power Atom based x86 core when you can have a superior SMT/HT on the normal x86 core. AMD's Zen 4 won't have any of that bs drama, so that is looking bright, having 10nm concerns from Intel fab engineering. The only reason is loss of the HT/SMT crown. No matter what Intel is trying to do they clearly lost the edge of Hyperthreading which was first huge blow to AMD back then, now the roles are reversed completely, AMD's ultimate domination on that end.
On the AMD chipset BSOD errors and USB issues, AMD is pushing new update as a BIOS fix for the X570 and B550 platforms, it would be good if Anandtech can get what is the information and how this issue existed and what did they do to fix it, since it is a big thing to have USB stability esp on such a platform.
scineram - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Nobody cares about Windows 7.Silver5urfer - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Do you even know that Win7 works great on Ryzen platform, even the Zen 3 CPUs on B550 and X570 boards (except ASRock) and Z390, Z490 as well. Z490 Dark EVGA can run Win7 as well and the Intel LAN 2.5G which is i225-v which is having only Win10 drivers works on Win7 with INF mod, perhaps how about the NT Lite to mod the Win7 ISO and install the updates with Slipstreaming the required drivers and ultimately run Win7 on latest HW with CSM+UEFI option in BIOS, if all fails, a PCIe expansion slot for SATA and get Win7 onto there. Everything is possible.Well unfortunately you are too dumb to even think what is possible and what people are losing with Win10 instead of Win7, latter is where User actually owns their PC / HW which they bought for hardwork cash.
Anandtech if they do this it would not just be a technical showcase but a damn gift to all the PC enthusiast fans, Win7 on latest 2021 HW.
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Bruh just install linux. Only total dumbarses are using unsupported windows 7 in 2021. PC "enthusiast" fans have long moved on.Silver5urfer - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
You are really naive and dumb lol, unsupported ? What the fuck you are talking about. Win7 has Ampere and RDNA2 latest drivers, M$ has proper updates for Win7, Chrome and Firefox update their latest browsers. What again is unsupported.. Just move on when you do not have absolutely anything to add.M$ has people like you who are really cattle which is why that atrocious Win10 which is a permanent beta OS is getting all traction despite having damn HW borking and Filesystem breaking bugs every damn week.
TheinsanegamerN - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
You are a complete dumbarse. Windows XP is CLEARLY superior to windows 7 and can be customized with like browsers and stuff, Totally a legit OS in 2021 XD.GeoffreyA - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
TheinsanegamerN, I know you're being sarcastic, but actually think XP was one of the best Windows versions of all time. Truly was a classic.GeoffreyA - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
To those who are trying to capture the old look and feeling on W10 (like me), there are a couple of things one can do. OpenShell for the Start menu; ShutUp10 helps to tone down some undesirable behavior; and a bit of adjustment here and there can get it looking very close to XP/7, surprisingly. I brought back QuickLaunch, disabled that ugly search box on the taskbar, and minimised the Ribbon in Explorer.SilverSurfer, I understand your sentiment and used to feel the same way, but 10's not so bad after a bit of tweaking. Also, W8's file-copy box and Task Manager are sheer gold.
schujj07 - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Using an OS that is 12 years old that has security holes big enough to drive a semi through them is not a good idea. What exactly are people losing with Win 10 vs Win 7? Unless you mean we are losing out on a more buggy OS, lower performance, long boot times, lack of a modern UI, less functionality, etc... While the GPUs have driver support for Win 7, B550 & X570 do not have drivers with official support.TheinsanegamerN - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Lets be honest, a modern UI is NOT a selling feature. That's like the only thingwindows 7 has going for it.CiccioB - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
For modern UI you mean the one that looks different depending on the preference panel you open and from where?For modern UI you mean that boring solid color flat square based interface that MS is trying to put away reintroducing shades and transparency?
For buggy OS you mean the one that regularly stops working at each useless update each time for "banality" like file system losing partition, deleting personal documents, being unable to print and so on?
For security holes are you talking about all those security patches that are constantly provide to try to close all the holes that leaks like a sieve?
Longer time boots are those you have when comparing Win10 with a NVE drive vs Win7 with a mechanical 5200RPM hard disk?
Less functionalities are? Those that break each update? Or can be done better with a dedicated tool? The fact that I have to periodically insert the bitlocker code to boot my notebook because the "modern OS" thinks I have removed/added some device from it?
AshlayW - Tuesday, March 16, 2021 - link
You are so full of crap it's not even funny. You come across very emotional and it's clouding your judgement. You can't cope with change, that's fine, but stop spreading misinformation online.As "TheinsanegamerN" says, you should be looking at Linux if you want something other than Windows 10 in 2021.
CiccioB - Tuesday, March 16, 2021 - link
You are so ignorant about computer science that you thing "new = better".You can live with it but stop spreading lies about the usefulness of the new OS, which is a damnation for any medium sized company that has to adopt it.
BTW, I use Win10, Win7 and Linux every day.
You can continue using your preferred gaming OS (an OS that comes with XBox services and games installed in its professional version is just a joke, not doubts and no need it to be defended for all the other new stupid things it came with).
mkaibear - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
>gift to all the PC enthusiast fans, Win7 on latest 2021 HW.Yes, all three of you. Back in the real world, how about you pick an OS which isn't insecure, is supported by more than just critical patches, and which isn't already obsolete?
If you hate MS that much just install Linux. Sheesh.
CiccioB - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
HT was born as a "hack" of the basic design that allowed Intel to execute two threads on the same core.At the time Intel cited that the HT support in their core cost them "5% of transistor count" with respect to the transistor used for the core.
So with a cost of 5% of the core size they gave the feature to support a second thread that could give up to twice the performance. Even tough it was quite rare it could do so, with an average contribution more near 30-40%.
Now things have surely changed and core front and back ends complexity probably does not require only 5% of core transistor count to give support to a second thread.
So the general idea is how many transistors (and design complexity) are required to have that 30-40% average performance improvement.
As you can see ARM has never designed a core with a dual thread support. They rely on smaller, simpler, faster, less power hungry designs with more predictable performance. And they are not shy of performance (as a powerful implementation done by Apple demonstrates) and even less shy of available cores. Being smaller they can put more in the same area, even though each of them perform a little less that a bigger core which may use up to 3 or 4 the amount of transistors.
Given that Alder Lake small core design is not an "Atom design" as you may intend as being "the poor slow useless brother" of the bigger one, but it is reported by Intel itself to have an IPC near Skylake core (so near to the same core IPC you are using today), it may be that these little cores can just be an hindrance for Windows/Linux schedulers (that have to decide how to manage them for which job and instruction support) more than a real performance limiters if well managed.
They are also the first try to have real heterogeneous computation in X86 systems with support to different cores that the OS has to support. A preview of what may be needed when Intel will use their MCM solutions with possibly different chiplet mix (high single thread performance cores, low single thread performance cores but at higher number for better multi threading performance tasks, GPU and on Xeon maybe even some sort of FPGA ASICS or highly specialized cores for particular tasks, also improving, I may say finally, customization).
Silver5urfer - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
No Apple M1 is not powerful as it shows. Ryzen already beat it and now with upcoming U series BGA Renoir it will be left in dust.And too many assumptions out of thin air, MCM and Intel ? Chiplet ? FPGA ? do these exist or even remotely have any product showcase, no they do not. AMD already reinforced they are not chasing this dumb trend of the Big Little joke on the Desktop. EPYC and Icelake do you see them ? Nope we do not. Until the big enterprises get this improvement and massive change in efficiency and fast design, it is nothing. Agilex (Intel) and Xilinx acq by AMD yeah we all know but there has to be products. ADL is simply trying to achieve 8C16T on their new cores whatever lake and add a bunch of trash cores, to bloat up the lost SMT performance, 8C16T+8C of low power cores, that will at max beat the 11700K or a 5800X but no way it's going to beat the 5950X, that is a big thing if Intel can really do that. Esp on a troubled node history 10nm on top. The fact that these do not exist on Server market clearly shows how Intel is literally in shambles, if they had them, which proves their confidence (like how AMD did with MCM)
Silver5urfer - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Cezanne* Zen 3, Renoir was old Zen 2 design, which already beat M1.GeoffreyA - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
My view is that this big/little is a mistake on Intel's part, and they will learn the hard way. Their efforts are better spent working on a single design but toning down its power, dynamically, as much as possible.GeoffreyA - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
On the other hand, leaving aside big/little for a moment, Gracemont seems to have some novel ideas. It's possible this lower-power design, taken further, could become their chief one in the future. Pentium M, anyone? Or, some of the tricks tested out in GM, could be worked into their main architecture.CiccioB - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
So Apple M1 is not fast because Zen3 in its monolithic form is (probably) faster?A F1 car that arrive in second place is not fast because it was not first? Maybe with half the cylinders and a smaller tank?
As power consumption seems to be the base for comparing AMD vs Intel, what are the power consumption of the new Zen3 dies vs the consumption of the M1?
How many full featured cores does the Zen3 have, and how many the M1? And in which configuration? Ouch, yes they are.. drum roll, 4 big and 4 small! Not that bad, are they?
And in M1 size and power consumption you have to add all those specialized parts that are not present on AMD APU and, if ever present, are in the external chipset (like Thunderbold, you know.. the fast interface the AMD doesn't provide at all but through... drum rolls... Intel chip! Plus the SATA and USB interfaces).
Despite your try to have a point, M1 cores ARE FAST, and they are not SMT//CMP/HT or whatever.
I think you believe Intel approach to MCM will be the same AMD did, that is one single chiplet for everyone but APUs (And they are not chiplets at all. Guess why?) but it may surprise you as Intel has other more complex and also some simpler (less power hungry) ways to connect dies.
AMD Xilinx acquisition was not something made by chance. It will take time for AMD to get something good out of it (if ever, seen the poor skills AMD has ever shown in anything outside x86 design, often also failing in that) but they are probably pointing to the same target, that is providing some sort of better and easier customization (than to embed it into the chip for each customer = costs in developing, masks and all the QA chain just for few thousands pieces each or bigger designs with all in but disabled part depending on the customer = more costs and worse yields).
You know that Intel already provides Xeon with integrated FPGA, do you? What is so strange to think they could provide that by a separate chiplet in a MCM architecture? Just because AMD can't develop more than 2 dies per generation without going bankruptcy does not mean others cannot create more (and different) ways to exploit the MCM designs.
By introducing (real) heterogeneous computational parts that Linux/Windows have to handle they just pave the road for the future (some years since now).
I think Intel is thinking beyond the simple "more cores for everyone" even if they do not really need them or even when more core = slower frequencies to not melt everything and with scaling advantage even going slim and slim as you add cores (and make them slower).
When you reach a big enough number of cores in the mainstram market you have two chances to sell more:
1. hope that all applications become so multi threaded that the number of cores you have already sold are not enough to handle them, and at the same time they provide faster performance (not that obvious) so you can sell a bigger CPU
2. hope to continuously increase IPC/frequencies to increase the performance to the same user with the same thread limited apps
I can't see any of those become real, so guess who is preparing for then next era?
RanFodar - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
You don't like Intel doing something, don't ya? As long as they bring competition with ADL, then I'm fine with it.ET - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Thanks for the update, Ian.Makaveli - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Thanks for the update Ian.What AGESA version are you running on the AM4 platform?
Can we make sure that is AM4 AGESA V2 PI 1.2.0.1 for the March 30th review?
JoeDuarte - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
As usual, there appear to be several errors and typos in your results:"The L1 cache structure remains at 5 cycle vs 4 cycle, as expected, and the L3 is also as expected, with 13 cycles..."
Did you mean L2 above where you said L3?
"In our 0x2C test, the L3 latency was 50.9 cycles, but with the new microcode is now at 45.1 cycles..."
The graph shows 46.2, not 45.1. Which is correct?
"Out at DRAM, our 128 MB point reduced from 82.4 nanoseconds to 72.8 nanoseconds..."
The graph shows 257.5, not 72.8. Which is correct?
You only have one latency graph here – is it the wrong graph? The numbers don't match your graphs from the initial review article either.
Ian Cutress - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
1) Typo, should have said L22) I replaced the graph last minute with more accurate data; had some frequency fluctuations to take care of. Forgot to adjust the ext.
3) The graph shows cycles, not nanoseconds.
Makaveli - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Also the first 3 graphs show Ryzen 5 5800X while the last peak power graph has it listed correctly as Ryzen 7 5800XIan Cutress - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
ok fair, I always forget which ones are Ryzen 5 or Ryzen 7. I also forget which ones are Core i3 and Core i5.GoldenBullet - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
@Dr. Ian, in your initial review, you stated buy an AMD CPU, but settle with Intel if you can't find an AMD CPU.You can now buy the most popular AMD CPUs AT MSRP (at least in the massive USA/Canadian market - I didn't check other markets):
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Ryzen-5600X-12-Thread-P...
https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Ryzen-5800X-16-Thread-P...
The day your initial review came out, Linus at Linus tech tip pointed that out in the WAN show, even then, you could buy the CPUS at MSRP.
Also, the non-x 5000 AMD CPUs will be released soon to further pin down intel in the hole they made themselves.
The non-x 5800 was already for sale at Dell:
https://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/147455-dell-starts...
GoldenBullet - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Also even in stock in Europe:https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/AMD-Ry...
https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/AMD-Ry...
GoldenBullet - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/gaming-and-games/a...proof of non-x 5900 for sale!!!
Macpoedel - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Alienware having a non-X 5900 as an upgrade option for a pre built OEM system is not proof that there are going to be non-X 5900's in the retail market.Just look at the Renoir desktop APUs (4650G etc), they exist, you can buy them, but there are no boxed versions. For AMD, their purpose is exclusively for pre built OEM systems.
Not saying that a retail non X boxed 5900 couldn't happen, but that's just no proof.
chris.london - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Nice work, Ian.Can you please check that BCLK is set to 100MHz on both of your motherboards? There used to be some variance between vendors. Thanks!
Ian Cutress - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
It's near enough within the standard spread spectrum to vary. This has been a critical point over the last decade, MB vendors used to mess with it, but it's all very standard now to be within +/- 1 MHz.chris.london - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
The problem is, the improvement is small enough that it can be explained almost entirely by a 1MHz higher BCLK. This is not an issue if you test everything on the same board, but it is when you switch between brands.This was still a thing a few years ago. IIRC GN found the MSI Z390 Godlike to run BCLK at 100.8MHz. I haven’t seen anything on the topic since then, but that wasn’t too long ago.
84survivor - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Thanks for the update.To be honest I'm still not convinced that DRAM speeds make no difference here. That leaked slide states "I9-11900K(F) SKUs are DDR4-3200 Gear 1. All other SKUs are DDR4-3200 Gear 2. DDR4-2933 is Gear 1". Gear down simply puts address/control/command signal on every other rising edge of a clock (keeping data as 1:1). We don't know what you used to checked "DDR4-3200 does appear to be the 1:1 mode" for the case, but a simple side-by-side test with 2933 on both platforms would be very welcomed and clear up all concerns on this,
tygrus - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
It would be interesting to see avg power next to each benchmark result.Extra data point: If all CPU's could be limited to 100w then it could show the compromises for quieter systems vs hair-dryer turbos.
Oxford Guy - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Seems like everyone wants to pick at crumbs to make this release seem relevant.Too bad for AMD that it can’t ship as many Zen 3 chips as demand asks for.
Too bad for us that we don’t have adequate competition in this space and the foundry space (and the GPU space) and the search space and the (rinse, repeat)...
RanFodar - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Truly a bad time for PC gaming :(cxtalxg - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
i mean 5800x and 5600x have both caught up to demand because their value sucks ass. the 10700k is on average 5-10% worse in games, with a 40% Cost difference. the 10 core 10850k is 13% cheaper with 2 more cores, and only around 3-6% slower on average in games and ahead in some games. Buying AMD makes no sense and you have to either be a fanboy or have no sense of value. 5950 and 5900x are still the best, mostly because they have no competition.Jasonovich - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
I think you need to look at the overall picture and I concur, it would be great if AMD Cpu's were cheaper but it's the market that determines the price and vendors can price them high because the demand is more than they can produce.To reiterate, it's not just the gaming, AMD cpus run cooler and have superior multi-threading performance and there's continuity, one format works down the line for 3-4 generations of cpu, AMD averages 4-5 years, while Intel you're likely to change your motherboard for your next upgrade.
Oxford Guy - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
The big picture is that inadequate competition causes a variety of woes, including artificially inflated prices and product availability shortages.Oxford Guy - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
cxtalxg, there is the issue of people not being able to buy GPUs. Why buy a 5800X or 5600X to play games on a GeForce 710 that costs $200?dsplover - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
Trying to feed a Dead Horse while AMD has hot desktop APU’s due out soon. At this point Intel’s maturity and compatibility is all they have to offer.Desktop Tiger Lake might be an option to fighting off AMD. But these endless defensive moves continue the downward spiral.
And I’m an Intel fan boy.
RanFodar - Sunday, March 14, 2021 - link
There is no (desktop) Tiger Lake, and Alder Lake will be the pivotal moment for Intel. Because if Intel can't bring competition this year, then what will?Bagheera - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Rocket Lake is exactly what Tiger Lake desktop should have been - but Intel 10nm didn't seem that for desktop class power envelop, hence why 10nm is still limited to server and laptop parts.Even Alder Lake's design is curious on this front - limiting number of 10nm big cores to 8 seems like a workaround for 10nm's power issues more than anything else. Time will tell I guess.
RanFodar - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Sometimes, even a workaround solution can be learned to bring new innovations. Hopefully after their rocky launch of Rocket Lake, Intel can move forward.watzupken - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Good to see Anandtech update the results with the new microcode. To be honest, I agree with the first paragraph of your conclusion, and I wasn't expecting a microcode to make a whole lot of difference. At least I don't recall historically I've seen any significant performance uplift just by means of microcode changes. I don't really care about those UP TO xx% improvements because in most cases, they don't make much difference.plonk420 - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
typo: "in like with" -> "in line with" ?Spunjji - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Great to see this update! Really happy that you're staying at the leading edge of this analysis. Thanks, Ian.In terms of the product itself, going from a performance regression in games to performance equity with the previous generation is not terribly encouraging. It looks like we'll have to wait until later this year to see if they can finally push a noticeable gaming performance improvement from Skylake.
maroon1 - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Can you test gaming performance with the new update ??maroon1 - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Sorry. I Just noticed that you updated the original reviewfcth - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
Thanks. Might have been interesting to try the 1B microcode as well to provide a more apples to apples comparison (though of course other things might have changed in the bios as well).Honestly I'd love to see a article on motherboard performance (rather than feature) differences as well. Your reviews show little performance differences between boards, but you are normally comparing pretty similar products. Your motherboard recommendation articles on the other hand act like you'd be insane to buy even a low end Z590, let alone lower end chipsets, and I'd be curious to see how true that is.
GeoffreyA - Monday, March 15, 2021 - link
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