Seeing intel struggle to come up with a proper competition to AMD makes me happy and will hopefully make up for the years and years of milking intel did with the artificial limiting of 4 cores. Intel kept 6 cores and higher at a premium when it could to squeeze out every last penny from the market back then. This kinda karma is rare to see and it makes me happy. They also kept ECC ram out of consumer markets for years - go read the Ars article on that if you think like I did how it was unnecessary because intel marketed it for pros only for the Extra $$$. Scree you intel execs. You deserve this beating from amd and apple now.
Intel didn't artificially limit 4 cores, they fixed the massive problem of PC power consumption and lack of idle states and sleep states. They destroyed AMD by properly manufacturing on-chip and on-die components, for example their on-chip memory controller substantially outperformed AMD's for years and still has better support for mismatched modules to this day.
AMD bet on a huge architecture in Bulldozer, and Intel punished them. Now AMD has a compact architecture and higher yield dies, and is punishing Intel. It's really not that deep. But don't act like Intel didn't massively improve processors over the last decade. It's just the last 2 years that have been truly abysmal, and that was certainly not deliberate.
Lol, the Intel spinning level of this comment is of epic proportion! Intel performance has been stagnating for a decade while AMD, with a much smaller scale and budget, managed to almost double its CPU performance in 3 years! Imagine what we could have had if Intel also thought of pushing performance besides squeezing everyone for as many mullars as possible!
Apparently Intel should've sandbagged a couple years instead of posting consistent year over year improvement. It's honestly pathetic how deeply you hate Intel.
My weed burned up by sitting next to 225W Piledriver parts. Nothin left, sorry.
Imagine complaining that Intel was holding back with quad cores when AMD couldn't even fit a quad-core and iGPU on the same die during that same time period! And yes, I'm counting two modules as two cores, as per the outcome of AMD's lawsuit :)
Intel absolutely artificially limited things to 4 cores. They stayed that course long past the announcement of Ryzen, and then suddenly jerked away from it when it was clear they were getting clobbered. Intel didn't even put 4 cores into ultra-low-power notebooks until AMD announced Raven Ridge. Prior to that, it was dual-core "i7" processors or nothing.
Pretty two-faced to complain about not putting quad cores in ULP notebooks then also complain about said quad core power consumption in other threads! But okay :)
maybe this is what Spunjji is kind of referring to ? video from MLID is a little old now, but could be what happened, and intel was really caught off guard by how well Zen has done.
LOL, struggling. Intel isn't struggling to come up with anything. Intel is doing great at exactly what they do best - delivering value and quality to their customers. Their latest rocket lake stuff completely destroys AMD with less cores and less power consumption. So did their previous stuff, but a bunch of idiots fixated on useless non-realworld benchmarks and somehow AMD got ahead of things there but still failed at normal everyday computing.
Its also funny you mentioned ECC, because AMD doesn't certify any of their shitty home CPUs for ECC, so how is that different from Intel? Apparently ECC on AMD has some problems even in server space, mostly because nobody serious uses AMD for servers so they get a lot less testing done.
So yeah, Intel continues winning while AMD continues... whining? Or I mean, AMD fans.
Whats with intel chills spawning out of nowhere? first excusing and claiming the stagnation of intel for years and the consumer milking with overrated and overpriced products. Now this clown claims "destroys" when there are not even real reviews and the only slides say winning in GAMING only. The fact that they had to remove TWO CORES and have HIGHER POWER to barely reach single core performance at 5.3+Ghz says a lot. They will still be below AMD in multi threaded by a large margin. And if the rumors are right, the power budgets will be even tighter on intel's side.. so intel products will only look good on short benchmarks.
The most likely reason for shills I can come up with is not that they are emotionally invested in a brand, but more likely they are shareholders. Intel must be worried though, if they are finally dropping the artificial not allowing memory overclocking on the next round of B chipset boards.
There are shills for every company. No matter how good or bad their stocks are doing. AMD shills always were liars and overhyped AMD stuff and attack Intel for the most retarded reasons. Intel shills will always claim Intel is the best and fastest. Nvidia shills, since Turing arrived, even claim that critically low VRAM is a good thing, while for a decade they said you can never have enough VRAM. BMW drivers will always claim their cars are the best, and so will Tesla drivers, while in reality they are some of the most unreliable cars you can get. Etc, etc, etc.
@Beaver M. comes in with the "bOtH sIdEs", but apparently AMD shills are also "liars" and "retarded" (🤦♂️) while Intel shills are just ordinary shills. Okay then, very balanced analysis. 😑
What? Did I insult one of your shillingers? I could repeat everything I said about each side for each side. But intelligent people can read and know that all that is included in the things I mentioned. For example you gotta be real retarded to claim that low VRAM is something good. And of course youre also lying while saying that. Not to mention when you say Intel is the best and fastest.
Timecrap isn't new around here, but as with most Intel fanbots they've spiralled from trumpeting whatever Intel wins at, through pointing frantically at edge cases, all the way down to this pathetic ranting.
"Intel isn't struggling to come up with anything." Then why are they finally releasing a post-Skylake desktop core nearly 3 years later than intended on an outdated node? 🤔
I have no idea why you're picking out AMD. Intel is now in third or fourth place, behind Apple, AMD and possibly Quallcomm (we'll see when MS gets their ARM stuff straightened out, if it's even possible at this point).
MS "ARM stuff" is straightened out. Apple's CPU cores are just that much better than stock ARM designs. See: Windows in a VM on the Apple M1, also performing excellently.
It's possible to defend Intel without shilling. The Rocket Lake power consumption comment is pretty wild to me -- Intel will not outperform Zen 3 on a per-watt basis while on 14nm. Desktop Ryzen is brilliant as of Zen 2. My only nitpick is that I'd like to see a basic GPU die added to the chiplet desktop architecture as an option, and I'm unimpressed that there isn't even an option.
The ECC comment is pretty funny re: servers because it goes back to the fact that there is a substantial cost to keeping your platform locked for 4 years or whatever AMD did: its memory controllers absolutely suck compared to Intel, and it's hard to iterate when you're stuck supporting old chipsets. This isn't a new problem. It's a shame though that Intel's HEDT isn't around, because that got you amazing memory controllers vs the solid consumer ones.
AMD's mobile though is absolutely hilarious, especially with the latest article that came out. Why is AMD releasing Zen 2 on mobile again? Simple: yields suck! Take away the chiplet design, and suddenly AMD and Intel are at parity. AMD can barely produce a bigger CPU, and that's even with a tiny, abysmal GPU. Intel can barely fit a quad core, because of its massive, underperforming (per mm^2) GPU. On mobile, space-efficient cores matter.
It's wild to think that Nvidia could probably release a Tegra with 8x ARM X1 cores and win GPU benchmarks in x86/x86-64 games. I hope they do it but I doubt it.
No, because AMD isnt learning much either. Just look at the WHEA errors/crashes their CPUs have right now. Actually became worse with this new generation. Prices are also still completely insane. And X570 still sucks.
You can have schadenfreude as much as you want, but Intel failing will only hurt you as a customer. We told them not to fall for this fascistic quota crap. They didnt listen, even though the science and simple common sense proved them wrong long ago. It is what it is.
Theres an article on this very site about how this whole crap happened to Intel. If you would finally learn to read you would then be able to tell what I was talking about. Or maybe youre pro such fascistic behavior and thats why youre triggered. I heard theres still a lot of those around nowadays.
Maybe some day, Intel will come up with a coherent naming scheme instead of these random lakes, ridges and creeks. Just put the architecture type like Atom or Core, generation number and model number, instead of using geological features and precious metals and even bringing back the ancient Pentium name.
Uh.... The lakes, rivers and creeks are just code names. Intel still uses its numbering scheme for the actual name. Where have you been the last decade?
To be fair, their numbering scheme is total crap as well. AMD are fairly terrible, but Intel's stuff is worse in general and their Xeon range is actively hostile.
Well, these are internal codenames, not marketing names. They have to be geological or mythical otherwise they have the potential to fall foul of copyright.
Also, Intel has continually been using Pentium and never stopped. Usually for the lower end of the market. They added Silver when the Xeon Scalable went to metals.
The only way I can see Intel staying relevant over the next few years is if they do strike a deal with TSMC but goodness knows what that would look like. TrendForce seem to be claiming that TSMC will be making 5nm Intel chips at the end of this year and 3nm chips in 2022.
I can't see TSMC having the 3nm capacity in 2022 to serve all of Apple's needs, PLUS you would think still put AMD before Intel as they are a long term FABless partner, ON TOP of also having enough spare capacity to then fulfil Intel's requirements.
We have to look at it from TSMC's point of view, they already can't make enough chips for Apple and AMD, these customers will always come first because in a few years Intel might say thank you very much, our FABs are working now and walk away but TSMC have lost Apple or AMD to Samsung.
The point is TSMC really doesn't need Intel, they are sold out without them and it really shouldn't come down to Intel offering a little more money right now because that would be like taking a $10,000 bribe knowing it will cost you your $50,000 a year career you have had for years and are very happy at.
We will have to see what happens. I really want it to be true as it would be amazing for us as customers but I would think it can only happen if TSMC has the capacity, which it might have but I don't believe that to be the case given the shortages we are having right now.
Maybe TSMC is forcing Intel into signing a 10 year minimum order deal which would give TSMC peace of mind to risk upsetting Apple or AMD but it's still a dangerous game for them to play.
Personally I think the best and possibly only way this partnership can work is if Intel licenced TSMC's IP for the 7nm to 3nm nodes, this would then cover everything up to the move to GAAFET. As I've said TSMC doesn't have anywhere near the capacity to serve their long term customers and then also provide Intel with any meaningful capacity but Intel has the capacity just not the IP. So put these two together and TSMC could make an absolute fortune by licencing their node knowhow to Intel and Intel could almost instantly dig itself out of it FAB hole it's in, win-win.
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Smell This - Monday, January 11, 2021 - link
"Intel answered exactly zero of our questions""I'm SHOCKED!" said no one.
FreckledTrout - Monday, January 11, 2021 - link
Intel inside, because they are scared.milkywayer - Monday, January 11, 2021 - link
Seeing intel struggle to come up with a proper competition to AMD makes me happy and will hopefully make up for the years and years of milking intel did with the artificial limiting of 4 cores. Intel kept 6 cores and higher at a premium when it could to squeeze out every last penny from the market back then. This kinda karma is rare to see and it makes me happy. They also kept ECC ram out of consumer markets for years - go read the Ars article on that if you think like I did how it was unnecessary because intel marketed it for pros only for the Extra $$$. Scree you intel execs. You deserve this beating from amd and apple now.lmcd - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Intel didn't artificially limit 4 cores, they fixed the massive problem of PC power consumption and lack of idle states and sleep states. They destroyed AMD by properly manufacturing on-chip and on-die components, for example their on-chip memory controller substantially outperformed AMD's for years and still has better support for mismatched modules to this day.AMD bet on a huge architecture in Bulldozer, and Intel punished them. Now AMD has a compact architecture and higher yield dies, and is punishing Intel. It's really not that deep. But don't act like Intel didn't massively improve processors over the last decade. It's just the last 2 years that have been truly abysmal, and that was certainly not deliberate.
DanD85 - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Lol, the Intel spinning level of this comment is of epic proportion! Intel performance has been stagnating for a decade while AMD, with a much smaller scale and budget, managed to almost double its CPU performance in 3 years! Imagine what we could have had if Intel also thought of pushing performance besides squeezing everyone for as many mullars as possible!lmcd - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
While we're at it, jet fuel can't melt steel beams!10% performance increase, 20 W decreased power: https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/2703?vs=27...
https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/287?vs=155... additional benchmarks.
Apparently Intel should've sandbagged a couple years instead of posting consistent year over year improvement. It's honestly pathetic how deeply you hate Intel.
flashmozzg - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
All attributed almost entirely to a 22 -> 14nm switch.lmcd - Wednesday, January 13, 2021 - link
Early 14nm left a lot on the table. Intel's struggles didn't start with 10nm.damianrobertjones - Saturday, January 16, 2021 - link
This is business? Why spend cash when your products are selling and BEATING the competition?DigitalFreak - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Where'd you get that weed you're smoking?lmcd - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
My weed burned up by sitting next to 225W Piledriver parts. Nothin left, sorry.Imagine complaining that Intel was holding back with quad cores when AMD couldn't even fit a quad-core and iGPU on the same die during that same time period! And yes, I'm counting two modules as two cores, as per the outcome of AMD's lawsuit :)
Spunjji - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Last 4 years*Intel absolutely artificially limited things to 4 cores. They stayed that course long past the announcement of Ryzen, and then suddenly jerked away from it when it was clear they were getting clobbered. Intel didn't even put 4 cores into ultra-low-power notebooks until AMD announced Raven Ridge. Prior to that, it was dual-core "i7" processors or nothing.
lmcd - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Pretty two-faced to complain about not putting quad cores in ULP notebooks then also complain about said quad core power consumption in other threads! But okay :)Qasar - Thursday, January 14, 2021 - link
maybe this is what Spunjji is kind of referring to ? video from MLID is a little old now, but could be what happened, and intel was really caught off guard by how well Zen has done.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7264Twnw_9o
timecop1818 - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
LOL, struggling. Intel isn't struggling to come up with anything.Intel is doing great at exactly what they do best - delivering value and quality to their customers.
Their latest rocket lake stuff completely destroys AMD with less cores and less power consumption.
So did their previous stuff, but a bunch of idiots fixated on useless non-realworld benchmarks and somehow AMD got ahead of things there but still failed at normal everyday computing.
Its also funny you mentioned ECC, because AMD doesn't certify any of their shitty home CPUs for ECC, so how is that different from Intel? Apparently ECC on AMD has some problems even in server space, mostly because nobody serious uses AMD for servers so they get a lot less testing done.
So yeah, Intel continues winning while AMD continues... whining? Or I mean, AMD fans.
tamalero - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Whats with intel chills spawning out of nowhere?first excusing and claiming the stagnation of intel for years and the consumer milking with overrated and overpriced products.
Now this clown claims "destroys" when there are not even real reviews and the only slides say winning in GAMING only.
The fact that they had to remove TWO CORES and have HIGHER POWER to barely reach single core performance at 5.3+Ghz says a lot. They will still be below AMD in multi threaded by a large margin.
And if the rumors are right, the power budgets will be even tighter on intel's side.. so intel products will only look good on short benchmarks.
KompuKare - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
The most likely reason for shills I can come up with is not that they are emotionally invested in a brand, but more likely they are shareholders.Intel must be worried though, if they are finally dropping the artificial not allowing memory overclocking on the next round of B chipset boards.
Beaver M. - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
There are shills for every company. No matter how good or bad their stocks are doing.AMD shills always were liars and overhyped AMD stuff and attack Intel for the most retarded reasons.
Intel shills will always claim Intel is the best and fastest.
Nvidia shills, since Turing arrived, even claim that critically low VRAM is a good thing, while for a decade they said you can never have enough VRAM.
BMW drivers will always claim their cars are the best, and so will Tesla drivers, while in reality they are some of the most unreliable cars you can get.
Etc, etc, etc.
Spunjji - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
@Beaver M. comes in with the "bOtH sIdEs", but apparently AMD shills are also "liars" and "retarded" (🤦♂️) while Intel shills are just ordinary shills. Okay then, very balanced analysis. 😑Beaver M. - Wednesday, January 13, 2021 - link
What? Did I insult one of your shillingers?I could repeat everything I said about each side for each side. But intelligent people can read and know that all that is included in the things I mentioned.
For example you gotta be real retarded to claim that low VRAM is something good. And of course youre also lying while saying that. Not to mention when you say Intel is the best and fastest.
Spunjji - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Timecrap isn't new around here, but as with most Intel fanbots they've spiralled from trumpeting whatever Intel wins at, through pointing frantically at edge cases, all the way down to this pathetic ranting.Spunjji - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
"Intel isn't struggling to come up with anything."Then why are they finally releasing a post-Skylake desktop core nearly 3 years later than intended on an outdated node? 🤔
"completely destroys AMD"
lolno!
"shitty home CPUs"
Cry harder 🤣
nico_mach - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
I have no idea why you're picking out AMD. Intel is now in third or fourth place, behind Apple, AMD and possibly Quallcomm (we'll see when MS gets their ARM stuff straightened out, if it's even possible at this point).lmcd - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
MS "ARM stuff" is straightened out. Apple's CPU cores are just that much better than stock ARM designs. See: Windows in a VM on the Apple M1, also performing excellently.PaulHoule - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Intel is great at wasting die area on features that are fused off, that you can only turn on if you pay $1000's more.lmcd - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
It's possible to defend Intel without shilling. The Rocket Lake power consumption comment is pretty wild to me -- Intel will not outperform Zen 3 on a per-watt basis while on 14nm. Desktop Ryzen is brilliant as of Zen 2. My only nitpick is that I'd like to see a basic GPU die added to the chiplet desktop architecture as an option, and I'm unimpressed that there isn't even an option.The ECC comment is pretty funny re: servers because it goes back to the fact that there is a substantial cost to keeping your platform locked for 4 years or whatever AMD did: its memory controllers absolutely suck compared to Intel, and it's hard to iterate when you're stuck supporting old chipsets. This isn't a new problem. It's a shame though that Intel's HEDT isn't around, because that got you amazing memory controllers vs the solid consumer ones.
AMD's mobile though is absolutely hilarious, especially with the latest article that came out. Why is AMD releasing Zen 2 on mobile again? Simple: yields suck! Take away the chiplet design, and suddenly AMD and Intel are at parity. AMD can barely produce a bigger CPU, and that's even with a tiny, abysmal GPU. Intel can barely fit a quad core, because of its massive, underperforming (per mm^2) GPU. On mobile, space-efficient cores matter.
It's wild to think that Nvidia could probably release a Tegra with 8x ARM X1 cores and win GPU benchmarks in x86/x86-64 games. I hope they do it but I doubt it.
Beaver M. - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
No, because AMD isnt learning much either. Just look at the WHEA errors/crashes their CPUs have right now. Actually became worse with this new generation. Prices are also still completely insane. And X570 still sucks.You can have schadenfreude as much as you want, but Intel failing will only hurt you as a customer. We told them not to fall for this fascistic quota crap. They didnt listen, even though the science and simple common sense proved them wrong long ago.
It is what it is.
Spunjji - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
"fascistic quota crap"What are you even on about here?
Beaver M. - Wednesday, January 13, 2021 - link
Theres an article on this very site about how this whole crap happened to Intel. If you would finally learn to read you would then be able to tell what I was talking about. Or maybe youre pro such fascistic behavior and thats why youre triggered. I heard theres still a lot of those around nowadays.Qasar - Wednesday, January 13, 2021 - link
Beaver M, you are hilarious :-)six_tymes - Saturday, January 30, 2021 - link
you mean like how amd lied about barton and bull dozer cores. got it.six_tymes - Sunday, January 31, 2021 - link
are you 12?serendip - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Maybe some day, Intel will come up with a coherent naming scheme instead of these random lakes, ridges and creeks. Just put the architecture type like Atom or Core, generation number and model number, instead of using geological features and precious metals and even bringing back the ancient Pentium name.DigitalFreak - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Uh....The lakes, rivers and creeks are just code names. Intel still uses its numbering scheme for the actual name. Where have you been the last decade?
Spunjji - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
To be fair, their numbering scheme is total crap as well. AMD are fairly terrible, but Intel's stuff is worse in general and their Xeon range is actively hostile.nico_mach - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Every sufficiently advanced product range becomes fundamentally obfuscatory in nature.Spunjji - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
True - but Xeon is *uniquely* bad.Ian Cutress - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
Well, these are internal codenames, not marketing names. They have to be geological or mythical otherwise they have the potential to fall foul of copyright.Also, Intel has continually been using Pentium and never stopped. Usually for the lower end of the market. They added Silver when the Xeon Scalable went to metals.
croc - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
I really, REALLY hate fanbois. And my karma feels bad about it, but there it is.RanFodar - Tuesday, January 12, 2021 - link
I feel bad for Intel, and they have the capability to compete, yet the intense hating on the comments makes my blood boil.Why not just make 'em trade blows, that can be good for the consumer.
Oberoth - Thursday, January 14, 2021 - link
The only way I can see Intel staying relevant over the next few years is if they do strike a deal with TSMC but goodness knows what that would look like. TrendForce seem to be claiming that TSMC will be making 5nm Intel chips at the end of this year and 3nm chips in 2022.I can't see TSMC having the 3nm capacity in 2022 to serve all of Apple's needs, PLUS you would think still put AMD before Intel as they are a long term FABless partner, ON TOP of also having enough spare capacity to then fulfil Intel's requirements.
We have to look at it from TSMC's point of view, they already can't make enough chips for Apple and AMD, these customers will always come first because in a few years Intel might say thank you very much, our FABs are working now and walk away but TSMC have lost Apple or AMD to Samsung.
The point is TSMC really doesn't need Intel, they are sold out without them and it really shouldn't come down to Intel offering a little more money right now because that would be like taking a $10,000 bribe knowing it will cost you your $50,000 a year career you have had for years and are very happy at.
We will have to see what happens. I really want it to be true as it would be amazing for us as customers but I would think it can only happen if TSMC has the capacity, which it might have but I don't believe that to be the case given the shortages we are having right now.
Maybe TSMC is forcing Intel into signing a 10 year minimum order deal which would give TSMC peace of mind to risk upsetting Apple or AMD but it's still a dangerous game for them to play.
Personally I think the best and possibly only way this partnership can work is if Intel licenced TSMC's IP for the 7nm to 3nm nodes, this would then cover everything up to the move to GAAFET. As I've said TSMC doesn't have anywhere near the capacity to serve their long term customers and then also provide Intel with any meaningful capacity but Intel has the capacity just not the IP. So put these two together and TSMC could make an absolute fortune by licencing their node knowhow to Intel and Intel could almost instantly dig itself out of it FAB hole it's in, win-win.
I'll try to speak to Pat and see what he thinks.
Statusswag - Thursday, January 21, 2021 - link
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