That should be "head-related *transfer* function" (HRTF), not "head-related transform function". The transfer function of a signal-transferring system is the reaction of the system's output signal to an impulse input signal.
#83
For the pure digital out card, go with AV710 because it can be flashed with Prodigy 7.1 firmware. Then you can install Prodigy 7.1 drivers (which are much better than Via's OEM drivers). This gives bit-perfect digital out for only $25.
Note that the AV710 only supports digital out via Toslink. So if your receiver does not accept toslink, then EMU0404 is the only choice.
I actually mentioned that I prefered listening to the dream theatre dvd in 2 channel ... i prefer all music listening in 2 channel actually ...
There are not many good 2 channel 24/192kHz DVD-Audio offerings out there ... does anyone have any good suggestions? Most of the stuff I like is mixed into 6 channel. Which just feels wrong for anything but techno or orchestral stuff that tries to put you at the prime listening point of a music hall or something.
Also, note I used rather nice 2 channel headphones while the sonic quality of my surround solution was no where near as good. It was more to test compatibility.
We are certainly open to suggestions on what and how to test to better suit our readers though :-)
Thanks for the comment on what I should use. I thought I should clarify. I need two seperate PC's (HTPC's) one is for my room and needs analog out. The other is for a the lounge room and will use digital out into an Onkyo 701 reciever.
What cards should I use for this?
#80.
Correct I would like to see the reviews a little more accomodating to 2 channel audio. All CD's are stereo and they are still the dominant format.
Everyone's asking for so many things to be reviewed. It makes more sense IMO to do a general article on how to get good sound from a PC. Something for beginners, like the excellent articles on taking pictures which have appeared recently. PC audio is really quite simple; but you won't know how it works without digging for information.
For those of you with Audigy 2's who want to get the highest quality possible from 44.1KHz sources - you don't necessarily need to spend the $$$ buying a new sound card.
Instead, configure either Foobar or Winamp to resample to 48KHz in the output plugin. Both have versions of the high quality "SSRC" plugin available. For Winamp, you need to search for DirectSound 2.0 with SSRC output plugin. There is also an ASIO plugin with built-in SSRC resampling. The results of ABX double-blind tests seem to suggest that going this route is an effective substitution for one of the better Non-Resampling cards...
my motu 828 mkii puts the smackdown on those reviewed cards... gina is decent but i wouldnt quite put it at the 'pro' level. should have used something slightly better like a digidesign 002, motu 828/896, rme...
#69
You should consider EMU0404 or EMU1212 ($100 and $200, respectively).
Even better would be to use digital out from Chaintech AV710 ($25, can be flashed to Prodigy 7.1 firmware and get bitperfect digital out) to a nice external DAC. There are a lot of options for the external DAC, one of the best for this purpose is Benchmar DAC1, which can be had for $975.
Since we are in an era of htpc's. I think we need clarification on playback more than we do recording.
I think most people that acctually wanted to do recording would go get a dedicated recording solution.
But because of limited drivers and the like (linux) most playback cards tend to be of the consumer variety.
I very much would like to see the ENVY chips reviewed. And a short piece on OS compatibility.
People will have very specific perposes for looking at these audio reviews. ie
Games- SPdif
Games- Analogue
Playback-SPdif
Playback-Analogue
Recording-All
I guess.
Also unfortunatly the domanant audio source is still 16bit/44.1hkz. Since my HTPC has to playback every CD that I have on my server in uncompressed WAV format, I want the best card for that purpose.
All, I want is a review of a sound card that does realtime SPDIF DTS/DD encoding not just a card that only does it in DVD's. You find one and I'm gonna go buy it.
i'm still using philips seismic edges (philips tbird avenger chipset, PSC705 model) in my boxen because creative can't put out a decent product. i wouldn't mind seeing the new ultimate edge (PSC724) or aurilium (PSC8xx) reviewed. happy with what i have except the latest drivers for these things are about three years old and games like WoW and republic commando aren't happy with them =P
MrMarbles; check out the card I have, Echo Audio Mia MIDI. Its sample rate is completely controllable, including full lock to 44.1, with zero resample as long as you bypass Kmixer by either using any of the time critical transports (for example, kernel streaming) or even a special proprietary Kmixer bypass for regular wave audio output that's included in the drivers called Purewave. When I bought it, you could find the card for just $200, and it was over a year ago.
I'm interested in buying a soundcard for playing back highquality (if you can call MP3's that) MP3 files. I got an Audigy2 now. Very happy with the low distortion, has a very clean sound on my B&W Nautilus 805 speakers. But, they also have a very wellknown problem with 44.1khz 16bit stereo playback. So looking to upgrade. I'm a bit of a audiophile, but I can't spend too much. Gaming is not something do a lot of anymore.
Oh, and the ALC850 is pretty horrible. I used a TB Santa Cruz from 2001 to 2004 (3 years) and noticed the difference straight away when I switched to the on-board sound on my new Athlon64 rig.
Later, when I bought an Audigy 2 ZS for Xmas, I noticed the difference on that the moment I popped the card in. Nah, don't waste your time on an ALC850 when there are more worthy things to review;
- VIA Envy24HT cards
- the various Audiophile-ish stuff already mentioned
From what I've read @ Hydrogenaudio, it's impossible to "bypass" the resample stage with an Audigy 2 ZS (when dealing with 44.1KHz source).
Someone posted a wave file which contained a particular sine wave. When played back on hardware which could natively handle 44.1KHz, it sounds fine.
When played back on hardware which resamples 44.1KHz to 48KHz, lots of weird distortion could be heard - sirens, alien noises, etc. On the Audigy 2 ZS, even if you used ASIO or Kernel Streaming output, this behaviour was observed. Only when you did a high quality (SSRC) resample to 48KHz did it sound fine.
BTW I don't see the point in reviewing the TB Santa Cruz. While a good card for its time, that was more than 2 years ago. It's been EOL (end of life) for 2 years now, and there won't be any new drivers made for it. It won't work in future OS's (XP64) and even the most recent XP32 drivers had issues with various games.
Question for Derek, why was Audigy 4 judged better than the Audigy 2? It costs more and was just as bad (or worse)as the Audigy 2 in the objective tests.
Regarding the audiophile incursion into Anandtech - just please beware that Audiophilia nervosa is contageous...
...when you start hearing differences between $40 and $4000 cables, power cords, volume knobs (yes, knobs, not pots), 'demagnetised' CDs, etc... take a long holiday.
Thanks for the feedback. We will explore some of these options.
We did, however, use RightMark 3DSound for our CPU Utilization tests. :-) There wasn't much more detail we could have gone into. We could have reported standard deviation for CPU usage, or even shown the graph over time for each card (which looked roughly the same in every case). The only test we really didn't include there was a test of the maximum number of audio channels on each card, though 32 happened to also be the max channels for the Realtek solution (64 channels for soundblaster 128 channels for gina3g).
There's not much more information that RightMark 3DSound provides than what we showed. Unelss there's something specific you would like us to explore with the program? The effect of custom audio files?
It's good to see soundcards and onboard audio being reviewed again here. The three products you chose were a good start (the Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro and Audigy 4 Pro are so similar that the small differences measured are almost irrelevant, which is no surprise as Creative rarely updates their hardware).
I was surprised that high quality extrnal DACs and ADCs hooked up to a reference card with SPDIF connections wasn't used for the RMAA tests, as the way it was done seriously compromises all the results. There's no way to tell how good the output-circuitry and input-circuitry of each card is, and as the input-circuitry is usually the weaker on all but high-end cards, it was probably the main factor in your results. The possibility of a ground-loop also throws a serious question-mark over their accuracy. Retesting all three (or four) cards with high-quality external DACs and ADCs hooked up to a second card is essential for good reference results that can be used with future tests (which must also use the same improved testing methodology).
The CPU utilisation results were more interesting and useful given the above, but why not use RightMark 3DSound to more thoroughly research the issue, rather than just the basic tests offered by RMAA?
Anyway I look forward to more cards being tested (Envy24 based solutions for the low-end certainly) as well as onboard audio. Onboard audio will vary from mobo to mobo so unless every mobo Wesley reviews also undergoes an audio test, the mobo audio testing will only apply to the few select boards chosen (another board using the same audio solution could be much better or worse because the choice and layout of the analogue circuitry is critical).
www.digit-life.com does some very thorough soundcard reviews covering almost every aspect (but unfortunately for only a lmited selection of cards) that are well worth taking a look at.
Nice article! I'd like to see more cards reviewed, but the fact that the article doesn't compare every single sound card ever made doesn't bother me so long as we'll be seeing more things like this in the future :D
Speaking of the future, I'd agree with #54 and whoever else said it: the E-MU 0404 and 1212m are definitely worth considering in future articles due to their excellent analog (stereo) sound output and wide feature set (well, mainly on the 1212m, but the 0404's not bad for the price). The cheap Chaintech AV-710 may also be worth a look, as its sound quality in "High Quality" mode (stereo only, again.. sigh) is surprisingly good for the price. Also, it has optical out. The Revo 5.1 and 7.1 are, of course, also worth considering.
I'd also say that you might want to try other speakers and headphones out. I'm not saying you should use really expensive high-end stuff, mind.. what I AM saying is that synergy occurs to a surprising degree with sound equipment, and besides, it wouldn't hurt to try out other pieces of gear that might be within the price range of the typical computer hardware enthusiast.
One last thing. I read this article while taking a break from building a power supply that just happened to use an LM1086. Creepy.
Some very good cards for pure music playing are EMU0404 and EMU1212.
External dacs can get quite costly, but you get the benefit of isolation from noisy power, and much better analogue output.
I think Benchmark DAC1 is one of the best DACs for use with PC because its very jitter resistant, has fantastic DAC performance, can be used in many different ways (it has a decent built in headphone amplifier, it can be used in a preamp-less speaker system, etc.).
Right now, I'm using a Benchmark DAC1 (toslink input from computer), Sennheiser HD650, Grado RS1, and a Dynahi amplifier (http://www.headamp.com/dynahi.shtml). The DAC1 sounds many magnitudes better than SoundBlaster.
I understand people's concerns regarding subjectivity but lets have a go with that for a second. I use relatively high quality headphones with my laptop (Grado SR-225s) and I will be building another desktop system agian son.
Something that I have noticed in my experience with audio is that some hardware is more 'fatiguing' than others.
This 'may' to some degree show up in tests, distortion in upper frequencies, poor crosstalk, etc etc. But simply listening to the "source" (the soundcard) for a long period of time with as a previous poster pointed out 'well made' cables (DIY stuff is fantastic if you have the knack, I don't :) and a revealing good quality speaker can reveal this 'subjective' element.
People see to varying degrees, I have poor sight others have very good sight. Some have good night vision, others have comparatively poor vision. Similarily audio sensitivity varies from person to person, and fatigue is important but subjective. Audio fatigue contributes to a negative music & gaming experience.
A brief rant on the 'source first' school of Audio thought. Essentially audiophiles seek information preservation. We want to be able to hear the conductor drop thier baton, the violin tuned improperly, the subtle ebb and flow of underlying melodies. If any of this information is NOT transmitted by the source, the AMP, Cables, Pre-amp, and finally speakers. All contribute to information loss.
The quality of the original information is therefore of the most importance, hence the importance of soundcard/source reviews in general. The other school of thought is that the source doesn't matter 'so much' or that all sources are roughly equal.
As you've demonstrated, already, with the measurements in this small sample of soundcards. There is a variance in the quality of the soundcards and their measurable performance, with some of those differences being audibly different.
So.... all to say. Subjective tests may be of some use. Especially if you begin, as I suspect you will, that soundcards will have a slightly different sonic character. In my own in house review of about 7 different CD players, determining what is different - was not a problem - determining which was BETTER, was.
though, I will say that we do want to find a balance between the audiophile and the computer enthusiast.
Our goals in reviewing PC audio cards are rooted in our history as a computer hardware site, but we aspire to more than simply spitting out RMAA numbers and benchmarks.
We do want to bring something for the audiophiles and musicians as well, so all feedback is appreciated. As usual, we will strive to bring coverage beyond what other computer hardware sites offer, so you can be sure that we will pay attention to what you guys have to say.
A subjective element to the tests, with better hi-fi equipment, is not appropriate. It is not a competence of AnandTech; the sites you mentioned have much more info and reviewers there have greater experience and expensive equipment; moreover their readers are entirely audio enthusiasts, unlike AnandTech's.
For those interested in audio cards, Head-Fi and the audio asylum are good places to go for info.
ProviaFan, take a look at the Paradigm stuff, or if you've got decent multichannel power, I also feel that Magnepan's smaller speakers give good sound for the money (MMGs for example). I'm not sure if a Magnepan setup is in your budget (definitely worth the money if you can afford it, though, and comparably cheaper than many other audiophile HT solutions), but Paradigm's midrange (i.e. not Reference series) stuff should be pretty affordable. It's probably no cheaper than Magnepan to outfit your HT with Paradigm Reference, though.
Of course there's plenty of other options out there. On the more affordable end, perhaps try some Cambridge Newton Series sats/bookshelves in conjunction with a Velodyne sub.
Response to the audiophile that just posted: Yes, good cable is important, but good cable can be made at home for not terribly large amounts of money... Anything that costs hundreds of dollars per foot is not necessarily bad, but is nonetheless a terrible waste of money, because _there is no difference_. If you hear a difference between a $4 cable and a $40 cable, there probably is a difference. If you hear a difference between a $40 cable and a $4000 cable, it's in your head.
With that said, I'd like to know of what to look for in a _good_ 5.1 monitor speaker setup (not consumer gaming quality, but not break-the-bank "audiophile" monitors based advertised with endless pseudoscience), as I might be in the market for something like that. :)
Oh, and if Derek has any extra spare time (yeah, sure ;), I would be interested to see where something like the M-Audio Delta 1010LT sits between the consumer cards and the other pro cards that he mentioned in one of his latest posts (MOTU, Digidesign, etc.).
Other than Ed I think I'm the only audiophile to post on this and this is my comment regarding your multichannel setup.
You used professional monitors for the 2 channel listening, fine Sony isn't great but its ok.
And you used a consumer level speakers, Logitech, for your multichannel experience.
You could hear differences on 2 channel... but not multi channel. What has changed most significantly is... your speakers. As you state, speakers are what introduce the highest levels of distortion.
You can believe me, or not, but on my setup I can hear differences between CD players (Arcam 73t, Cary 308, Creek CD50, Roksan Kandy mkIII, Rega Planet 2000, Cambridge Audio Azur 640c for the curious), cabling and amplifiers.
You need to have better quality speakers for evaulating multichannel. I'm not arguing the speakers are even the most important component, I'm a source first kind of person. But I think that having better evaluatory tools would be helpful.
You absolutely have the right idea of having a 'reference'. Do not change it often. This is something Anandtech has always been good at with your other reviews. You use the same hardware/software tests over a longer period of time than other sites to ensure 'long term comparability'.
Including a subjective element to the tests would be interesting. Some sites to look at.
www.audioasylum.com Post a request on recommended testing methodologies and it might be helpful.
www.uhfmag.com (comparative reviews panel of listeners generally non blind)
www.hifichoice.co.uk (active use of blind listening panels here)
www.stereophile.com www.sixmoons.com
www.soundstage.com (does lots of measurements good comparisons)
Those might be useful.
Also, using some high quality headphones, Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Grado might be useful as well.
There is a general ignorance the basics of what audio systems are composed of. A receiver has a completely different purpose to a PC audio card (Griffin powerwave excluded). You need three things: an analog line-level signal (from a DAC), amplification, and speakers. (Exception: digitally-controlled class D amplification.) A $200 receiver will not have as good dacs as those in for instance the EMU 1212m. A receiver is often a DAC and an amplifier. Sound cards generally do not contain amplification.
I second that. While it's nice to know how the audio solutions stack up in testing, some real world advice & comparisons would be a lot more helpful. For example, using the Intel/Realtek onboard solution with quality optical cables straight to a Dolby Digital receiver with home theater speakers versus using an Audigy card to a set of mid-high end 5.1 computer speakers.
I use SPDIF outputs to hook up my computers to external equipment, a receiver and set of "real" speakers. IMHO a $200 receiver sounds superior to any PC audio card. I get real DolbyDigital and DTS decoding, low CPU overhead. Maybe I miss some of the audio effects in games but I always thought that Creative EAX is way overhyped anyway and most of the time I'd have it turned off because the sound was just plain weird. I think as more games have support for Dolby 5.1 and better EAX will become less relevant.
The review's title should be: audio for gaming. Apart from gaming you have very many audio cards: E-MU, Ego Systems, Edirol, RME, M-Audio, etc.. For audio playback and recording these are the cards to consider; for gaming the reviewed cards are the ones to consider. (Not that they are bad: the Audigy 4 Pro is a good audio card, but around the level of the emu 0404, which costs less.)
Including older cards is a great idea as many people are looking for an upgrade. Something I would like to see included personally:
- classic SoundBlaster Live using the kX driver and swapped outputs.
- DFI's Karajan audio module with ALC850 compared to the standard implementation
- SoundBlaster Live 24-bit with the Wolfson DAC
I'll add an updated to the conclusion as well that ties together what we were trying to do with the article and explains the point a little better ... I do applogize for the confusion on all this.
For the future, here are some chipsets and cards we want to include in the future:
envy24 boards (maudio and terratec)
realtek alc850 onboard
analog devices onboard
nvidia nf2 soundstorm
Please read his remarks before you go off crying that this round up sucks and you didnt do this card or that card. Read some of the comments in the commetns section and Dereks response before you spew out the same crap someone else has.
He stated 6 posts above you soupy that these were done to creat a refrence point for each segment for future reviews of sound cards.
Perhaps you should remove the roundup part of the article title Derek.
no EMU cards? (0404, 1212). Those are some really hi-fidelity cards this review should've included. And yeah, there really has to be a good, solid sound system for reviews like these to be based on. All in all, this roundup was pretty bad.
#15 - Aardvark is dead. Sadly, because they made some good stuff, but they're not around any more, which means no driver updates, etc. :(
For pro cards, you could try the MOTU 828mkII (maybe throw in a 24I/O or HD192 on the high end if you're going to cover that segment), the Presonus Firepod, and whatever Digidesign sells in that price range (comments on the Protools software would be required also if you're going to do that ;). If you wanted to go really high end, you could look at some Apogee D/A and A/D's... :D
#19 - I second that. However, I have not seen (or rather havent looked hard enough?) something since the soundstorm that does realtime AC3 out. And yes, please include at *least* the Revolution 7.1 in a future review. Maybe you should thrown in your stock AC97 on most boards you see now (Realtek 6 channel, not Intel HD Audio) just to show the difference between them and a $100+ card.
I also fail to see the real benefit of Creative cards and hardware 3D audio when to me its always sounded like the game is in a cave or some other overdone (or underdone!) effect. Ok maybe you get a few extra fps but I have always played games using Miles Fast 2D/3D audio without complaint.
you really should have had something with the via envy 24 chipset in there. there are so many boards out with one of those variants. personally I would have liked to see M-audio (or who ever they are now) revo 7.1 AND 5.1 as the new 5.1 is supposed to have better DAC's I've heard.
We had originally just picked on card from each end of the market (onboard, addin, pro) and then decided that we needed to do both the audigy 2 and 4 because they're so similar. It's really meant to be an intro piece on sound and a look at an example of each market segment.
We certainly weren't trying to be all inclusive, and we do want your feedback. These cards will be our "comparison point" cards in each market segment. When we look at onboards solutions, we'll talk about how it compares to the ALC880, and on the Pro side, we'll match up the Gina3G with whatever we're looking at.
And when we do a targeted review as for proaudio we will absolutely spend time setting up a workstation and running some latency tests and we'll talk about asio/gsif support more in depth.
We will be reviewing more sound cards :-)
We didn't want to review all of them at once and spoil the fun though. :-D
Not a single card based on the VIA Envy24 setup...no M-Audio Revolution, no Terratec, no Chaintech AV-710 (all Envy24-based)...I can't believe Anandtech left one of the largest enthusiast chipsets out of the roundup. There's just not enough representation here of available solutions to make a good comparison, it's either Intel or Creative, and Intel isn't an option for AMD users.
If you're going to make onboard comparisons, why not (even if it's a poor solution) add the ALC850 found on most Socket 754/939 boards, seeing as AMD users can't exactly get Intel/Azalia HD audio?
More cards please!!! Soundstorm, older audigy/Live and m-audio sure would have made this article a whole lot better, as thats what a lot of people are using.
If mid-range cards are an order of magnitude better in objective sound tests than onboard solutions, I might actually go back to buying sound cards.
I would like to reaquest testing the onboard Realtek's on the Athlon64 motherboards. I would be interested in seeing how they perform compared to mid-range and high-end sound cards.
Yep; gotta' have at least a halfway decent setup, from head to tail. I'm pretty happy with my setup:
foobar2000 kernel streaming FLAC/Monkey's Audio to
Echo Audio Mia MIDI with sample rate locked to 44.1, out via 75ohm impedance silver coax S/PDIF to
Onkyo TX-SR501, out via silver cabling to
a pair of Paradigm Studio/20 Rev. 3 sitting on
Atlantis Reference stands
Most people are not gaming with 800 sound cards.
I would be suprised if gamers are using $100 sound cards. When people list out thier RIGS 8 out 10 don't even lsit thier sound card. And the other 2 have $100 or less cards. I'm all for a review of $200+ cards but almost all are not using them for gaming.
Also in order to hear better sound from $100+ card you need a better and better speak system. Not just speaker, but a good in home setup. I threw down $1000 on a speak system and it sound ok. WhenI had my friend come over and setup it up right. It sounded great. It more then just buying them and plugging them in. It take a lot to get a quailty setup. High end sound cards only will not do it, so for some it just not worth going beyond a $100 card.
[Self-serving]
Could we get an onboard audio review for the Soundstorm on the Abit NF7-S v2? ;P[/self-serving]
Seriously though, good review.. but I'd like to know where my current system stands.
And does anybody know how much "THX Certified" is worth? I have logitech Z-2200s connected to my nForce onboard right now(My Audigy developed an odd crackling noise during gameplay that I couldn't get rid of.)
What about AC3 digital encode? The next PC I build will be a HTPC, and digital encode for a single connection to my receiver is of great importance. I doubt if any of the sound systems analog sections would be used.
What is the overhead of the digital encode? Does it slow a frame rate or not seem to matter?
Can you hear the difference between the digital and analog output with a good home theater setup?
For me personally what I would want is reviews of gaming perfomance since I used the SPDIF outputs and my HiFi so they all should so the same. I'd also like to know how much difference there really is between different EAX implementations and if it is true that a new SoundStorm board is coming out. I'm sure you know. Can't you just claim you forgot the NDA? ;)
My main reason for a soundcard is transferring analog audio from my Turntable(remember those 12" pieces of vinyl????) to CD- or commonly referred to as "needle-drops". The higher quality DAC's and discrete components the better.
When I went from my old SB-Live to turtle Beach Santa Cruz- I recevied a huge boost in quality- the drop in noise was huge.
I'd love to see how the TB SC holds up in this regard compared to the listed products.
Oh- my TB SC is currently not in a PC- as I am just getting the Intel 915 board running in a mchine. I assume by seeing the Intel HD Audio tests- I WILL be putting my Santa Cruz in.
I am quit disappointed with this review as there are only so few audio cards there. There are so many of them on the market! You must definitely include M-Audio Revolution 7.1, and some card from Audiotrak Maya + Prodigy series (aka Prodigy 7.1), and Aureon 7.1 Universe or DMX 6fire from Terratec. These are of the major cards on the market and there are missing. You could also include Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, and some card from Hercules.
I would also include more mid-range and maybe some even some high-en cards (like those from Aardvark or R M E or MOTU ) generally, do not concentrate on low-end cards like Audigy 2 from Creative. In graphic cards reviews you expect us to pay over 600USD for them, so why to concentrate on value cards in audio tests? BTW if you think that people are not doing such things like playing games on audio cards which cost over 800USD you are wrong :)
You should also include some external USB and Firewire cards like Audiophile USB or FireWire 410 from M-Audio (one of my friends recently brought the Audiophile USB replacing some older Audiotrak Maya and he is quit happy with it. He told that even listening to mp3 files is clearly better).
You must also include latency tests in the review and you should comment on support of main standards lide ASIO and GSIF.
if you're refering to not calling Intel HD audio, it can do 24-bit/96kHz ... It just can't record at that bit rate. Playback is no problem. Of course, it's not as high quality as we would expect to see from that many bits per sample at that sampling rate.
#12, S0me1X,
The gina3g uses an external DAC/ADC which is one of the reasons we see a cleaner signal. Of course, the soundblaster uses a /better/ DAC, so we see lower noise and dynamic range even though the signal looks a lil shaky at spots.
Any chance for one of the Terratec soundcards? I heard they're pretty good.
My ideal soundcard or onboard solution should be
-96KHz/24-bit DTS/Dobly Surround and any previous standard
-optical and coaxial s/pdif input and output
-perhaps an analogue breakoutbox for simple stereo operation and additional analogue outputs.
With so many DVD-players around (even in cars), there is no need to stay in the 44.1/16 realm. 48/24 already sounds so much better than 44.1/16.
It would be nice to have onboards being taken more seriously by the manufacturers. The leads on a mobo are all quite exposed to everything else going on in there. A few efforts in shielding would probably make a real difference, even without changing the chip. I am not ready to pay for a crappy onboard solution. And don't call it HD unless it can do 96/24.
I just hope that Creative would fix the 44.1kHz resampling issue and IMD problems with the Sound Blaster Zenith sound cards thats suppose to come out sometime this year.
I don't see how the Audigy 4 is so much better than the Audigy 2 to recommend it over the Audigy 2. They are pretty much the same with the Audigy showing weaknesses and one strength in 24/96 D/A conversion. I guess internal computer audio is still not to be taken very seriously except for games (which the reviews sort of hints at).
any chance you could take a look at the m-audio revo 5.1? i've been looking for a review of this card for a long time. even a short update/comparison to the revo 7.1 would be great.
on the whole, this review seems alright. kinda short though. definitely touch on recording quality in the future. maybe you could also stretch out the qualitative bit with some more music listening tests of other genres.
I remember hearing a while ago about the M-audio revolution 7.1 card, but its been a while since ive heard anything. Those seemed pretty good for music listening, if i remember the review right. Could be some good competition for the other cards in this review.
Either way, I'm really excited that anandtech might be making more updates in the audio market. I'm a big fan of audio, but it just seems like that category gets overlooked alot compared to some of the other ones. Maybe theres a place where im not looking (if there is, let me know please : ) ), but it'd still be nice to have more audio reviews.
lol, as i think about this post i guess it doesnt totally have a meaning, but its late and im rambling...just thought id try to raise a little discussion :).
I was just kidding about the MOTU, as I'm sure it wouldn't be too practical for you to review their higher end stuff - it's not what most people here would be concerned about. However, I would be interested in how these cards work in real life in a professional multitrack recording application. What kind of latency, do you experience dropouts? Practical stuff like that would be my only suggestion, but that might be kind of hard to implement.
Feel free to make your audio review requests here, we are open for business ;-)
I'm not saying we'll get to them all, but we'll certainly consider them.
Also, we welcome your feedback. This is the first audio review we've done in a long time, and we really want to know what we can do to make our audio reviews the best they can be. Tell us what you want and we'll do our best to deliver. :-)
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SkillS - Friday, June 13, 2008 - link
Pleas Do not review audio cards here,your knowledge of the subject is highly limited,
your testing methods with adapters for christ sake are more then questionable,
your pairing of pro audio cards with "demands" like EAX are laughable ,
and it all leads to one thing - Confusing Buyers,
Please stop this nonsense.
Stick to something you DO have a clue about.
NEVERwinter - Monday, April 11, 2005 - link
so..., where's the roundup?I'd like to see these cards (compared to those already in the article):
envy24 (terratec DMX xfire 24/96)
envy24ht (terratec aureon universe, audiotrak prodigy 7.1, m-audio revolution 7.1)
realtek alc850 onboard
nvidia nf2 soundstorm
turtle beach santa cruz?
lynx, emu, motu and digi002 is also a good addition
by the way, i read somewhere that revolution 5.1 has better DAC than revo 7.1. is that true?
flachschippe - Thursday, March 10, 2005 - link
That should be "head-related *transfer* function" (HRTF), not "head-related transform function". The transfer function of a signal-transferring system is the reaction of the system's output signal to an impulse input signal.S0me1X - Saturday, February 5, 2005 - link
#83For the pure digital out card, go with AV710 because it can be flashed with Prodigy 7.1 firmware. Then you can install Prodigy 7.1 drivers (which are much better than Via's OEM drivers). This gives bit-perfect digital out for only $25.
Note that the AV710 only supports digital out via Toslink. So if your receiver does not accept toslink, then EMU0404 is the only choice.
Link to AV710 on newegg
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?desc...
Link to info about flashing to Prodigy firmware
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75...
The AV710 has decent 2 channel analog out (in high res mode), but the EMU0404/1212 better.
DerekWilson - Saturday, February 5, 2005 - link
Disdain for 2 channel?I actually mentioned that I prefered listening to the dream theatre dvd in 2 channel ... i prefer all music listening in 2 channel actually ...
There are not many good 2 channel 24/192kHz DVD-Audio offerings out there ... does anyone have any good suggestions? Most of the stuff I like is mixed into 6 channel. Which just feels wrong for anything but techno or orchestral stuff that tries to put you at the prime listening point of a music hall or something.
Also, note I used rather nice 2 channel headphones while the sonic quality of my surround solution was no where near as good. It was more to test compatibility.
We are certainly open to suggestions on what and how to test to better suit our readers though :-)
Derek Wilson
sparky001 - Saturday, February 5, 2005 - link
#70 - S0me1XThanks for the comment on what I should use. I thought I should clarify. I need two seperate PC's (HTPC's) one is for my room and needs analog out. The other is for a the lounge room and will use digital out into an Onkyo 701 reciever.
What cards should I use for this?
#80.
Correct I would like to see the reviews a little more accomodating to 2 channel audio. All CD's are stereo and they are still the dominant format.
Maleficus - Saturday, February 5, 2005 - link
CSMR - Saturday, February 5, 2005 - link
Everyone's asking for so many things to be reviewed. It makes more sense IMO to do a general article on how to get good sound from a PC. Something for beginners, like the excellent articles on taking pictures which have appeared recently. PC audio is really quite simple; but you won't know how it works without digging for information.Gooberslot - Saturday, February 5, 2005 - link
I'd like to see the AV-710 and the Revo 5.1 reviewed. That emu 0404 doesn't look too bad either.I do wish the reviewer didn't have such disdain for 2.x solutions. Not everyone has room or money for a surround sound system.
LocutusX - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
For those of you with Audigy 2's who want to get the highest quality possible from 44.1KHz sources - you don't necessarily need to spend the $$$ buying a new sound card.Instead, configure either Foobar or Winamp to resample to 48KHz in the output plugin. Both have versions of the high quality "SSRC" plugin available. For Winamp, you need to search for DirectSound 2.0 with SSRC output plugin. There is also an ASIO plugin with built-in SSRC resampling. The results of ABX double-blind tests seem to suggest that going this route is an effective substitution for one of the better Non-Resampling cards...
S0me1X - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
There are many more factors that effects the sound quality than just the chipset...knitecrow - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
Onkyo SE-150PCI is a via ENVY24 based soundcard. I expect it to be like all hi-end VIA ENVY24 based cards.vailr - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
Please also consider, for camparison:Onkyo SE-150PCI PC Digital Audio Board
http://www.audiocubes.com/product_info.php?product...
knitecrow - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
Its a good primer, got my hopes up... I would have liked to seen a more comprehensive round-upThe soundcards/audio solutions I would like to get compared:
Consumer ENVY24 boards:
$25 chaintech AV-710 (i've found to sound as good as any audigy)
$100 M-audio Revolution 7.1 or Audiotrak Prodigy 7.1
Pro ENVY24 cards:
M-audio audiophile 2496
I like the suggestions about
Creative Live! & turtle beach santa cruze
realtek alc850 onboard
analog devices onboard
nvidia nf2 soundstorm
I'll look forward to such a roundup.
S0me1X - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
However, its not something I'd get if I just want the highest quality sq from a computer ;)S0me1X - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
Motu 828 looks interesting :) Firewire is another excellent interface for this application, if implemented properly.tr1kstanc3 - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
still a good review and i do hope you follow up on your conclusion to test real "pro-audio" interfaces!tr1kstanc3 - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
my motu 828 mkii puts the smackdown on those reviewed cards... gina is decent but i wouldnt quite put it at the 'pro' level. should have used something slightly better like a digidesign 002, motu 828/896, rme...S0me1X - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
#69You should consider EMU0404 or EMU1212 ($100 and $200, respectively).
Even better would be to use digital out from Chaintech AV710 ($25, can be flashed to Prodigy 7.1 firmware and get bitperfect digital out) to a nice external DAC. There are a lot of options for the external DAC, one of the best for this purpose is Benchmar DAC1, which can be had for $975.
sparky001 - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
Since we are in an era of htpc's. I think we need clarification on playback more than we do recording.I think most people that acctually wanted to do recording would go get a dedicated recording solution.
But because of limited drivers and the like (linux) most playback cards tend to be of the consumer variety.
I very much would like to see the ENVY chips reviewed. And a short piece on OS compatibility.
People will have very specific perposes for looking at these audio reviews. ie
Games- SPdif
Games- Analogue
Playback-SPdif
Playback-Analogue
Recording-All
I guess.
Also unfortunatly the domanant audio source is still 16bit/44.1hkz. Since my HTPC has to playback every CD that I have on my server in uncompressed WAV format, I want the best card for that purpose.
Thanks Derek.
KingofL337 - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
All, I want is a review of a sound card that does realtime SPDIF DTS/DD encoding not just a card that only does it in DVD's. You find one and I'm gonna go buy it.leliel - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
i'm still using philips seismic edges (philips tbird avenger chipset, PSC705 model) in my boxen because creative can't put out a decent product. i wouldn't mind seeing the new ultimate edge (PSC724) or aurilium (PSC8xx) reviewed. happy with what i have except the latest drivers for these things are about three years old and games like WoW and republic commando aren't happy with them =PEddNog - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
MrMarbles; check out the card I have, Echo Audio Mia MIDI. Its sample rate is completely controllable, including full lock to 44.1, with zero resample as long as you bypass Kmixer by either using any of the time critical transports (for example, kernel streaming) or even a special proprietary Kmixer bypass for regular wave audio output that's included in the drivers called Purewave. When I bought it, you could find the card for just $200, and it was over a year ago.-Ed
MrMarbles - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
I'm interested in buying a soundcard for playing back highquality (if you can call MP3's that) MP3 files. I got an Audigy2 now. Very happy with the low distortion, has a very clean sound on my B&W Nautilus 805 speakers. But, they also have a very wellknown problem with 44.1khz 16bit stereo playback. So looking to upgrade. I'm a bit of a audiophile, but I can't spend too much. Gaming is not something do a lot of anymore.Pandamonium - Friday, February 4, 2005 - link
Missing chipsets:Envy 24HT
nVidia Sounstorm
Maleficus - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
THANK YOU, seeing audio on the front page again is AWESOME.LocutusX - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Oh, and the ALC850 is pretty horrible. I used a TB Santa Cruz from 2001 to 2004 (3 years) and noticed the difference straight away when I switched to the on-board sound on my new Athlon64 rig.Later, when I bought an Audigy 2 ZS for Xmas, I noticed the difference on that the moment I popped the card in. Nah, don't waste your time on an ALC850 when there are more worthy things to review;
- VIA Envy24HT cards
- the various Audiophile-ish stuff already mentioned
LocutusX - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
From what I've read @ Hydrogenaudio, it's impossible to "bypass" the resample stage with an Audigy 2 ZS (when dealing with 44.1KHz source).Someone posted a wave file which contained a particular sine wave. When played back on hardware which could natively handle 44.1KHz, it sounds fine.
When played back on hardware which resamples 44.1KHz to 48KHz, lots of weird distortion could be heard - sirens, alien noises, etc. On the Audigy 2 ZS, even if you used ASIO or Kernel Streaming output, this behaviour was observed. Only when you did a high quality (SSRC) resample to 48KHz did it sound fine.
BTW I don't see the point in reviewing the TB Santa Cruz. While a good card for its time, that was more than 2 years ago. It's been EOL (end of life) for 2 years now, and there won't be any new drivers made for it. It won't work in future OS's (XP64) and even the most recent XP32 drivers had issues with various games.
vmajor - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Question for Derek, why was Audigy 4 judged better than the Audigy 2? It costs more and was just as bad (or worse)as the Audigy 2 in the objective tests.Regarding the audiophile incursion into Anandtech - just please beware that Audiophilia nervosa is contageous...
...when you start hearing differences between $40 and $4000 cables, power cords, volume knobs (yes, knobs, not pots), 'demagnetised' CDs, etc... take a long holiday.
DerekWilson - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
#58, PrinceGaz,Thanks for the feedback. We will explore some of these options.
We did, however, use RightMark 3DSound for our CPU Utilization tests. :-) There wasn't much more detail we could have gone into. We could have reported standard deviation for CPU usage, or even shown the graph over time for each card (which looked roughly the same in every case). The only test we really didn't include there was a test of the maximum number of audio channels on each card, though 32 happened to also be the max channels for the Realtek solution (64 channels for soundblaster 128 channels for gina3g).
There's not much more information that RightMark 3DSound provides than what we showed. Unelss there's something specific you would like us to explore with the program? The effect of custom audio files?
PrinceGaz - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
It's good to see soundcards and onboard audio being reviewed again here. The three products you chose were a good start (the Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro and Audigy 4 Pro are so similar that the small differences measured are almost irrelevant, which is no surprise as Creative rarely updates their hardware).I was surprised that high quality extrnal DACs and ADCs hooked up to a reference card with SPDIF connections wasn't used for the RMAA tests, as the way it was done seriously compromises all the results. There's no way to tell how good the output-circuitry and input-circuitry of each card is, and as the input-circuitry is usually the weaker on all but high-end cards, it was probably the main factor in your results. The possibility of a ground-loop also throws a serious question-mark over their accuracy. Retesting all three (or four) cards with high-quality external DACs and ADCs hooked up to a second card is essential for good reference results that can be used with future tests (which must also use the same improved testing methodology).
The CPU utilisation results were more interesting and useful given the above, but why not use RightMark 3DSound to more thoroughly research the issue, rather than just the basic tests offered by RMAA?
Anyway I look forward to more cards being tested (Envy24 based solutions for the low-end certainly) as well as onboard audio. Onboard audio will vary from mobo to mobo so unless every mobo Wesley reviews also undergoes an audio test, the mobo audio testing will only apply to the few select boards chosen (another board using the same audio solution could be much better or worse because the choice and layout of the analogue circuitry is critical).
www.digit-life.com does some very thorough soundcard reviews covering almost every aspect (but unfortunately for only a lmited selection of cards) that are well worth taking a look at.
S0me1X - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Oh yeah, don't visit head-fi: its evil.SDA - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Nice article! I'd like to see more cards reviewed, but the fact that the article doesn't compare every single sound card ever made doesn't bother me so long as we'll be seeing more things like this in the future :DSpeaking of the future, I'd agree with #54 and whoever else said it: the E-MU 0404 and 1212m are definitely worth considering in future articles due to their excellent analog (stereo) sound output and wide feature set (well, mainly on the 1212m, but the 0404's not bad for the price). The cheap Chaintech AV-710 may also be worth a look, as its sound quality in "High Quality" mode (stereo only, again.. sigh) is surprisingly good for the price. Also, it has optical out. The Revo 5.1 and 7.1 are, of course, also worth considering.
I'd also say that you might want to try other speakers and headphones out. I'm not saying you should use really expensive high-end stuff, mind.. what I AM saying is that synergy occurs to a surprising degree with sound equipment, and besides, it wouldn't hurt to try out other pieces of gear that might be within the price range of the typical computer hardware enthusiast.
One last thing. I read this article while taking a break from building a power supply that just happened to use an LM1086. Creepy.
S0me1X - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
While the Gina3G has an external DAC, it is doesn't look like it has its own power supply!? It is not a standalone DAC.I meant external DACs like this one
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/catalog/product_info...
S0me1X - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Some very good cards for pure music playing are EMU0404 and EMU1212.External dacs can get quite costly, but you get the benefit of isolation from noisy power, and much better analogue output.
I think Benchmark DAC1 is one of the best DACs for use with PC because its very jitter resistant, has fantastic DAC performance, can be used in many different ways (it has a decent built in headphone amplifier, it can be used in a preamp-less speaker system, etc.).
Right now, I'm using a Benchmark DAC1 (toslink input from computer), Sennheiser HD650, Grado RS1, and a Dynahi amplifier (http://www.headamp.com/dynahi.shtml). The DAC1 sounds many magnitudes better than SoundBlaster.
vaystrem - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I understand people's concerns regarding subjectivity but lets have a go with that for a second. I use relatively high quality headphones with my laptop (Grado SR-225s) and I will be building another desktop system agian son.Something that I have noticed in my experience with audio is that some hardware is more 'fatiguing' than others.
This 'may' to some degree show up in tests, distortion in upper frequencies, poor crosstalk, etc etc. But simply listening to the "source" (the soundcard) for a long period of time with as a previous poster pointed out 'well made' cables (DIY stuff is fantastic if you have the knack, I don't :) and a revealing good quality speaker can reveal this 'subjective' element.
People see to varying degrees, I have poor sight others have very good sight. Some have good night vision, others have comparatively poor vision. Similarily audio sensitivity varies from person to person, and fatigue is important but subjective. Audio fatigue contributes to a negative music & gaming experience.
A brief rant on the 'source first' school of Audio thought. Essentially audiophiles seek information preservation. We want to be able to hear the conductor drop thier baton, the violin tuned improperly, the subtle ebb and flow of underlying melodies. If any of this information is NOT transmitted by the source, the AMP, Cables, Pre-amp, and finally speakers. All contribute to information loss.
The quality of the original information is therefore of the most importance, hence the importance of soundcard/source reviews in general. The other school of thought is that the source doesn't matter 'so much' or that all sources are roughly equal.
As you've demonstrated, already, with the measurements in this small sample of soundcards. There is a variance in the quality of the soundcards and their measurable performance, with some of those differences being audibly different.
So.... all to say. Subjective tests may be of some use. Especially if you begin, as I suspect you will, that soundcards will have a slightly different sonic character. In my own in house review of about 7 different CD players, determining what is different - was not a problem - determining which was BETTER, was.
DerekWilson - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
CSMR is on the right track --though, I will say that we do want to find a balance between the audiophile and the computer enthusiast.
Our goals in reviewing PC audio cards are rooted in our history as a computer hardware site, but we aspire to more than simply spitting out RMAA numbers and benchmarks.
We do want to bring something for the audiophiles and musicians as well, so all feedback is appreciated. As usual, we will strive to bring coverage beyond what other computer hardware sites offer, so you can be sure that we will pay attention to what you guys have to say.
Derek Wilson
CSMR - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
A subjective element to the tests, with better hi-fi equipment, is not appropriate. It is not a competence of AnandTech; the sites you mentioned have much more info and reviewers there have greater experience and expensive equipment; moreover their readers are entirely audio enthusiasts, unlike AnandTech's.For those interested in audio cards, Head-Fi and the audio asylum are good places to go for info.
lsman - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
may be get your hands on those for less noise signal?http://www.kuroutoshikou.com/products/etc/no-pci+....
lsman - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
may be get your hands on those for less noise signal?http://www.kuroutoshikou.com/products/etc/no-pci+....
EddNog - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
ProviaFan, take a look at the Paradigm stuff, or if you've got decent multichannel power, I also feel that Magnepan's smaller speakers give good sound for the money (MMGs for example). I'm not sure if a Magnepan setup is in your budget (definitely worth the money if you can afford it, though, and comparably cheaper than many other audiophile HT solutions), but Paradigm's midrange (i.e. not Reference series) stuff should be pretty affordable. It's probably no cheaper than Magnepan to outfit your HT with Paradigm Reference, though.Of course there's plenty of other options out there. On the more affordable end, perhaps try some Cambridge Newton Series sats/bookshelves in conjunction with a Velodyne sub.
-Ed
Jigga - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
#26 is right on the mark--need ALC850 and Envy24 reviews STAT!ProviaFan - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Response to the audiophile that just posted: Yes, good cable is important, but good cable can be made at home for not terribly large amounts of money... Anything that costs hundreds of dollars per foot is not necessarily bad, but is nonetheless a terrible waste of money, because _there is no difference_. If you hear a difference between a $4 cable and a $40 cable, there probably is a difference. If you hear a difference between a $40 cable and a $4000 cable, it's in your head.With that said, I'd like to know of what to look for in a _good_ 5.1 monitor speaker setup (not consumer gaming quality, but not break-the-bank "audiophile" monitors based advertised with endless pseudoscience), as I might be in the market for something like that. :)
Oh, and if Derek has any extra spare time (yeah, sure ;), I would be interested to see where something like the M-Audio Delta 1010LT sits between the consumer cards and the other pro cards that he mentioned in one of his latest posts (MOTU, Digidesign, etc.).
vaystrem - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Other than Ed I think I'm the only audiophile to post on this and this is my comment regarding your multichannel setup.You used professional monitors for the 2 channel listening, fine Sony isn't great but its ok.
And you used a consumer level speakers, Logitech, for your multichannel experience.
You could hear differences on 2 channel... but not multi channel. What has changed most significantly is... your speakers. As you state, speakers are what introduce the highest levels of distortion.
You can believe me, or not, but on my setup I can hear differences between CD players (Arcam 73t, Cary 308, Creek CD50, Roksan Kandy mkIII, Rega Planet 2000, Cambridge Audio Azur 640c for the curious), cabling and amplifiers.
You need to have better quality speakers for evaulating multichannel. I'm not arguing the speakers are even the most important component, I'm a source first kind of person. But I think that having better evaluatory tools would be helpful.
You absolutely have the right idea of having a 'reference'. Do not change it often. This is something Anandtech has always been good at with your other reviews. You use the same hardware/software tests over a longer period of time than other sites to ensure 'long term comparability'.
Including a subjective element to the tests would be interesting. Some sites to look at.
www.audioasylum.com Post a request on recommended testing methodologies and it might be helpful.
www.uhfmag.com (comparative reviews panel of listeners generally non blind)
www.hifichoice.co.uk (active use of blind listening panels here)
www.stereophile.com www.sixmoons.com
www.soundstage.com (does lots of measurements good comparisons)
Those might be useful.
Also, using some high quality headphones, Sennheiser, Beyerdynamic, Grado might be useful as well.
CSMR - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
There is a general ignorance the basics of what audio systems are composed of. A receiver has a completely different purpose to a PC audio card (Griffin powerwave excluded). You need three things: an analog line-level signal (from a DAC), amplification, and speakers. (Exception: digitally-controlled class D amplification.) A $200 receiver will not have as good dacs as those in for instance the EMU 1212m. A receiver is often a DAC and an amplifier. Sound cards generally do not contain amplification.dev0lution - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I second that. While it's nice to know how the audio solutions stack up in testing, some real world advice & comparisons would be a lot more helpful. For example, using the Intel/Realtek onboard solution with quality optical cables straight to a Dolby Digital receiver with home theater speakers versus using an Audigy card to a set of mid-high end 5.1 computer speakers.Zak - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I use SPDIF outputs to hook up my computers to external equipment, a receiver and set of "real" speakers. IMHO a $200 receiver sounds superior to any PC audio card. I get real DolbyDigital and DTS decoding, low CPU overhead. Maybe I miss some of the audio effects in games but I always thought that Creative EAX is way overhyped anyway and most of the time I'd have it turned off because the sound was just plain weird. I think as more games have support for Dolby 5.1 and better EAX will become less relevant.Zak
CSMR - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
The review's title should be: audio for gaming. Apart from gaming you have very many audio cards: E-MU, Ego Systems, Edirol, RME, M-Audio, etc.. For audio playback and recording these are the cards to consider; for gaming the reviewed cards are the ones to consider. (Not that they are bad: the Audigy 4 Pro is a good audio card, but around the level of the emu 0404, which costs less.)Slaimus - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Including older cards is a great idea as many people are looking for an upgrade. Something I would like to see included personally:- classic SoundBlaster Live using the kX driver and swapped outputs.
- DFI's Karajan audio module with ALC850 compared to the standard implementation
- SoundBlaster Live 24-bit with the Wolfson DAC
DerekWilson - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
#37, bbomb, Good suggestion ...Title changed :-)
I'll add an updated to the conclusion as well that ties together what we were trying to do with the article and explains the point a little better ... I do applogize for the confusion on all this.
For the future, here are some chipsets and cards we want to include in the future:
envy24 boards (maudio and terratec)
realtek alc850 onboard
analog devices onboard
nvidia nf2 soundstorm
pro:
lynx (l22)
emu
digidesign (mbox or digi 002 rack + protools)
motu
rme
It does look like there's a lot of demand for older Turtle Beach and Creative cards, so we'll try to take a look at those as well for reference.
REMF - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
i would like to see how the Via envy24 cards stack up against the newer Realtek 880 and C-media HD chips, as well as against CL gear.bbomb - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Please read his remarks before you go off crying that this round up sucks and you didnt do this card or that card. Read some of the comments in the commetns section and Dereks response before you spew out the same crap someone else has.He stated 6 posts above you soupy that these were done to creat a refrence point for each segment for future reviews of sound cards.
Perhaps you should remove the roundup part of the article title Derek.
ElFenix - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
i'll stick with the santa cruz for a while longer, i guess.Damien - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I was surprised to not see the nForce 4 compared, given that it is one of the newest onboard sound components to support the latest gravy.Damien
soupy - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
no EMU cards? (0404, 1212). Those are some really hi-fidelity cards this review should've included. And yeah, there really has to be a good, solid sound system for reviews like these to be based on. All in all, this roundup was pretty bad.ProviaFan - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
#15 - Aardvark is dead. Sadly, because they made some good stuff, but they're not around any more, which means no driver updates, etc. :(For pro cards, you could try the MOTU 828mkII (maybe throw in a 24I/O or HD192 on the high end if you're going to cover that segment), the Presonus Firepod, and whatever Digidesign sells in that price range (comments on the Protools software would be required also if you're going to do that ;). If you wanted to go really high end, you could look at some Apogee D/A and A/D's... :D
Jigglybootch - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I'm surprised there was no E-mu 0404 reviewed. It goes for about the same price point as a plain Audigy 2 ZS, but blows it away in every category.Also surprised by no Revolution 7.1/5.1 review.
segagenesis - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
#19 - I second that. However, I have not seen (or rather havent looked hard enough?) something since the soundstorm that does realtime AC3 out. And yes, please include at *least* the Revolution 7.1 in a future review. Maybe you should thrown in your stock AC97 on most boards you see now (Realtek 6 channel, not Intel HD Audio) just to show the difference between them and a $100+ card.I also fail to see the real benefit of Creative cards and hardware 3D audio when to me its always sounded like the game is in a cave or some other overdone (or underdone!) effect. Ok maybe you get a few extra fps but I have always played games using Miles Fast 2D/3D audio without complaint.
YMMV
mcveigh - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
you really should have had something with the via envy 24 chipset in there. there are so many boards out with one of those variants. personally I would have liked to see M-audio (or who ever they are now) revo 7.1 AND 5.1 as the new 5.1 is supposed to have better DAC's I've heard.EddNog - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Mr. Wilson, please don't forget to mention the importance of bypassing the Kmixer resample stage. ;-)With even a merely decent system, the difference is obvious.
-Ed
DerekWilson - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Sorry for the confusion guys,We had originally just picked on card from each end of the market (onboard, addin, pro) and then decided that we needed to do both the audigy 2 and 4 because they're so similar. It's really meant to be an intro piece on sound and a look at an example of each market segment.
We certainly weren't trying to be all inclusive, and we do want your feedback. These cards will be our "comparison point" cards in each market segment. When we look at onboards solutions, we'll talk about how it compares to the ALC880, and on the Pro side, we'll match up the Gina3G with whatever we're looking at.
And when we do a targeted review as for proaudio we will absolutely spend time setting up a workstation and running some latency tests and we'll talk about asio/gsif support more in depth.
We will be reviewing more sound cards :-)
We didn't want to review all of them at once and spoil the fun though. :-D
MarkM - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I second #5's request -- esp concerning the onboard, which is more relevant for most new builds>on board nvidia audio would be interesting as well as an older sb live 5.1 card for reference
LoneWolf15 - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Not a single card based on the VIA Envy24 setup...no M-Audio Revolution, no Terratec, no Chaintech AV-710 (all Envy24-based)...I can't believe Anandtech left one of the largest enthusiast chipsets out of the roundup. There's just not enough representation here of available solutions to make a good comparison, it's either Intel or Creative, and Intel isn't an option for AMD users.If you're going to make onboard comparisons, why not (even if it's a poor solution) add the ALC850 found on most Socket 754/939 boards, seeing as AMD users can't exactly get Intel/Azalia HD audio?
hondaman - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
More cards please!!! Soundstorm, older audigy/Live and m-audio sure would have made this article a whole lot better, as thats what a lot of people are using.bob661 - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
If mid-range cards are an order of magnitude better in objective sound tests than onboard solutions, I might actually go back to buying sound cards.I would like to reaquest testing the onboard Realtek's on the Athlon64 motherboards. I would be interested in seeing how they perform compared to mid-range and high-end sound cards.
EddNog - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Yep; gotta' have at least a halfway decent setup, from head to tail. I'm pretty happy with my setup:foobar2000 kernel streaming FLAC/Monkey's Audio to
Echo Audio Mia MIDI with sample rate locked to 44.1, out via 75ohm impedance silver coax S/PDIF to
Onkyo TX-SR501, out via silver cabling to
a pair of Paradigm Studio/20 Rev. 3 sitting on
Atlantis Reference stands
"I'm lovin' it."
-Ed
OrSin - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Most people are not gaming with 800 sound cards.I would be suprised if gamers are using $100 sound cards. When people list out thier RIGS 8 out 10 don't even lsit thier sound card. And the other 2 have $100 or less cards. I'm all for a review of $200+ cards but almost all are not using them for gaming.
Also in order to hear better sound from $100+ card you need a better and better speak system. Not just speaker, but a good in home setup. I threw down $1000 on a speak system and it sound ok. WhenI had my friend come over and setup it up right. It sounded great. It more then just buying them and plugging them in. It take a lot to get a quailty setup. High end sound cards only will not do it, so for some it just not worth going beyond a $100 card.
Araemo - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
[Self-serving]Could we get an onboard audio review for the Soundstorm on the Abit NF7-S v2? ;P[/self-serving]
Seriously though, good review.. but I'd like to know where my current system stands.
And does anybody know how much "THX Certified" is worth? I have logitech Z-2200s connected to my nForce onboard right now(My Audigy developed an odd crackling noise during gameplay that I couldn't get rid of.)
yodel - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
YellowWing - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
What about AC3 digital encode? The next PC I build will be a HTPC, and digital encode for a single connection to my receiver is of great importance. I doubt if any of the sound systems analog sections would be used.What is the overhead of the digital encode? Does it slow a frame rate or not seem to matter?
Can you hear the difference between the digital and analog output with a good home theater setup?
smn198 - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
For me personally what I would want is reviews of gaming perfomance since I used the SPDIF outputs and my HiFi so they all should so the same. I'd also like to know how much difference there really is between different EAX implementations and if it is true that a new SoundStorm board is coming out. I'm sure you know. Can't you just claim you forgot the NDA? ;)reidc - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
My main reason for a soundcard is transferring analog audio from my Turntable(remember those 12" pieces of vinyl????) to CD- or commonly referred to as "needle-drops". The higher quality DAC's and discrete components the better.When I went from my old SB-Live to turtle Beach Santa Cruz- I recevied a huge boost in quality- the drop in noise was huge.
I'd love to see how the TB SC holds up in this regard compared to the listed products.
Oh- my TB SC is currently not in a PC- as I am just getting the Intel 915 board running in a mchine. I assume by seeing the Intel HD Audio tests- I WILL be putting my Santa Cruz in.
Chris
sandorski - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Yup, a wider range of cards would be nice.ottodostal - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I am quit disappointed with this review as there are only so few audio cards there. There are so many of them on the market! You must definitely include M-Audio Revolution 7.1, and some card from Audiotrak Maya + Prodigy series (aka Prodigy 7.1), and Aureon 7.1 Universe or DMX 6fire from Terratec. These are of the major cards on the market and there are missing. You could also include Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, and some card from Hercules.I would also include more mid-range and maybe some even some high-en cards (like those from Aardvark or R M E or MOTU ) generally, do not concentrate on low-end cards like Audigy 2 from Creative. In graphic cards reviews you expect us to pay over 600USD for them, so why to concentrate on value cards in audio tests? BTW if you think that people are not doing such things like playing games on audio cards which cost over 800USD you are wrong :)
You should also include some external USB and Firewire cards like Audiophile USB or FireWire 410 from M-Audio (one of my friends recently brought the Audiophile USB replacing some older Audiotrak Maya and he is quit happy with it. He told that even listening to mp3 files is clearly better).
You must also include latency tests in the review and you should comment on support of main standards lide ASIO and GSIF.
DerekWilson - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
#13, ceefka,if you're refering to not calling Intel HD audio, it can do 24-bit/96kHz ... It just can't record at that bit rate. Playback is no problem. Of course, it's not as high quality as we would expect to see from that many bits per sample at that sampling rate.
#12, S0me1X,
The gina3g uses an external DAC/ADC which is one of the reasons we see a cleaner signal. Of course, the soundblaster uses a /better/ DAC, so we see lower noise and dynamic range even though the signal looks a lil shaky at spots.
external DACs are a very good idea.
Derek Wilson
ceefka - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Any chance for one of the Terratec soundcards? I heard they're pretty good.My ideal soundcard or onboard solution should be
-96KHz/24-bit DTS/Dobly Surround and any previous standard
-optical and coaxial s/pdif input and output
-perhaps an analogue breakoutbox for simple stereo operation and additional analogue outputs.
With so many DVD-players around (even in cars), there is no need to stay in the 44.1/16 realm. 48/24 already sounds so much better than 44.1/16.
It would be nice to have onboards being taken more seriously by the manufacturers. The leads on a mobo are all quite exposed to everything else going on in there. A few efforts in shielding would probably make a real difference, even without changing the chip. I am not ready to pay for a crappy onboard solution. And don't call it HD unless it can do 96/24.
S0me1X - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Best way to get quality sound out of a pc is to use an external DAC. I'm using a Benchmark DAC1 that I'm very happy with :)SignalPST - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I just hope that Creative would fix the 44.1kHz resampling issue and IMD problems with the Sound Blaster Zenith sound cards thats suppose to come out sometime this year.sxr7171 - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I don't see how the Audigy 4 is so much better than the Audigy 2 to recommend it over the Audigy 2. They are pretty much the same with the Audigy showing weaknesses and one strength in 24/96 D/A conversion. I guess internal computer audio is still not to be taken very seriously except for games (which the reviews sort of hints at).wrecktangle - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
any chance you could take a look at the m-audio revo 5.1? i've been looking for a review of this card for a long time. even a short update/comparison to the revo 7.1 would be great.on the whole, this review seems alright. kinda short though. definitely touch on recording quality in the future. maybe you could also stretch out the qualitative bit with some more music listening tests of other genres.
is it just me, or are the spectrum plots missing?
sxr7171 - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Chapbass - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I remember hearing a while ago about the M-audio revolution 7.1 card, but its been a while since ive heard anything. Those seemed pretty good for music listening, if i remember the review right. Could be some good competition for the other cards in this review.Either way, I'm really excited that anandtech might be making more updates in the audio market. I'm a big fan of audio, but it just seems like that category gets overlooked alot compared to some of the other ones. Maybe theres a place where im not looking (if there is, let me know please : ) ), but it'd still be nice to have more audio reviews.
lol, as i think about this post i guess it doesnt totally have a meaning, but its late and im rambling...just thought id try to raise a little discussion :).
ksherman - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
especially the soudstorm nforce 2 variants... kind of a confusing review, but ill try again when im awake ;-)MAME - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
on board nvidia audio would be interesting as well as an older sb live 5.1 card for referenceProviaFan - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
BTW, good choice on the DT DVD! :DProviaFan - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
I was just kidding about the MOTU, as I'm sure it wouldn't be too practical for you to review their higher end stuff - it's not what most people here would be concerned about. However, I would be interested in how these cards work in real life in a professional multitrack recording application. What kind of latency, do you experience dropouts? Practical stuff like that would be my only suggestion, but that might be kind of hard to implement.DerekWilson - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Feel free to make your audio review requests here, we are open for business ;-)I'm not saying we'll get to them all, but we'll certainly consider them.
Also, we welcome your feedback. This is the first audio review we've done in a long time, and we really want to know what we can do to make our audio reviews the best they can be. Tell us what you want and we'll do our best to deliver. :-)
Derek Wilson
ProviaFan - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
Where was the MOTU? ;)http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/HD192/body....
raju - Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - link
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