The 4800U is a powerhouse for its wattage class, and still matches Intel's best in the same class for single core perf.
As for the 4900H, it's 45W with an optional 54W mode, and you might as well look at the 35W HS series if you're focusing on other TDPs. Intel has nothing to match this.
As for these 65W chips, I'm sincerely hoping they are talking about an optional cTDP-up for 45W chips like they have been providing for years already. If the new H-series is 65w only... Oh dear.
thankfully OEMs already learned the cooling solution with Intel high power usage for 45W CFL-H and CML-H ;)
jokes aside, the same sadly can't be said the same for 45W Renoir. it seems like OEMs couldn't put great cooling solution while also using 45W Renoir chip.
54W is turbo for almost 10 minutes, then 45W. 54W is also the upper limit by design it seems, only one I know of which does more is XMG(tongfan or what it's called) does 72W.
AMD has the benefit of using tsmc process. Also 10w is doable at very low frequency with Renoir....4900h at high frequency is also very close to 65 eatts
Sure, if you let it run freely, but the frequency they're able to mintain at both 65 and 45 watts is much higher than competing Intel CPUs. AMD is able to keep boosting above bse even at 45W (and even at 35W for the better binned HD , which is out of the reach of any current Intel chip. Guess we'll see if the new 10nm process changes that.
Just because they have a 10W 8 core doesn't imply that it doesn't go higher. See 4900H as others have said. Just because Intel is making a 65W 8 core doesn't mean they couldn't have made a smaller one if they chose to.
Decisions to make 4 core mobiles aside, Tiger Lake seems compelling. If it has a meaningful ST performance increase then Renoir, has better perf/w, and better graphics, I'd give up the performance of an 8 core in my thin and light for everything that's gained there. That said, the MT performance of Renoir will still be unrivaled; we'll have *gasp* highly competitive products from both sides with distinct advantages. Somebody point out the last time THAT happened.
For thin and light, most people would also be upgrading from a lower clocked Skylake / Kabylake dual-core, not a higher clocked Whiskeylake / Cometlake quad-core.
My favorite thin and light is the XPS 13, and I doubt it will have an AMD anything, this year or next, so it's not much of a decision process.
However, if more Surface updates include AMD options, that would change things at the high end to apples vs. apples for a lot of people.
Not necessarily, Kaby Lake Refresh came out in August 2017, three years ago now. By the time Tiger Lake comes out, that will be over three years that 4-core designs have been offered in the Laptops U-class chips. Many people and businesses looking to upgrade may already have 4-core chips and see that Tiger Lake is only 4 cores and Renoir is 8.
The fact that Intel are not making an 8-core CPU below 65W on 10nm really does suggest they can't - because otherwise they most definitely would, and have the ability to replace their whole 14nm range.
You are exactly right. It is all smoke and mirrors. Intel has fallen dreadfully behind the market's moving target. I have little hope they will be able to return to their former grace. They can brag all they want. Ice Lake's 10nm process was broken to begin with, worse than 14nm. It is nothing big to brag about small potatoes when the needle is still far behind the competition.
If everything they're saying about it is true, then Tiger Lake will be the first design manufactured on a 10nm process that delivers what was promised in the first place. In theory, that's enough to get them back to a place of competition *if* the yields are also good.
The long wait for the 8-core variant of Tiger (and no mention of it on desktop) suggests that either the yields are still not very good, or the procedures necessary to get yields and performance to acceptable levels have reduced overall output (e.g. more manufacturing stages / layers).
Either way, they're not going to have any problem competing in a market sense - they have enough cash to buy a lot of sales.
These promises just take it a little bit past where it was supposed to be in the first place. 10nm+ would have been appropriate (although if we're really counting this is 10nm++ now).
I frankly wasn't very impressed by the forum moderator who continually asked questions that are either well-known information (Tiger Lake launches with up to 4 cores with 8 core variants coming later but he kept asking questions on that regard) or that he knew the Intel guys would not answer like cache latency numbers.
I would have preferred some more intelligent questions about the design philosophies behind the various functional units, which might be something that they could answer since it wouldn't be divulging an exact architectural number that's still under NDA.
I thnk the one thing that every ones ignoring is the Console chips AMD has some serious fire power tucked into those little boxes just makes you wonder if they will ever release something similar for Desktop use or what do they have tucked away for launch later.
No one's ignoring them, but they're never going to make sense for a desktop. The CPU's nothing special (same as the Ryzen 4xxx APUs but clocked relatively low, so nice, but you can already get better performance from both AMD and Intel desktop chips), and the GPUs are bigger and better than anyone using an integrated GPU on a desktop would ever need. And the console-specific stuff for using GDDR6 main memory and the like isn't useful for a PC.
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frbeckenbauer - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
65 watts for 4 cores, 2012 has calledmikk - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
65W refers to 8 core TGL-H.e36Jeff - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
65W still isnt great for 8 cores. Considering AMD is as low as 10W for 8 cores...Klinbo - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
4900H is 54W for 8 coresEulytaur - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
The 4800*U* has a cTDP of 10Wikjadoon - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
And it runs like a 10 W processor... Zen2 perf/watt hasn't changed.Valantar - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
The 4800U is a powerhouse for its wattage class, and still matches Intel's best in the same class for single core perf.As for the 4900H, it's 45W with an optional 54W mode, and you might as well look at the 35W HS series if you're focusing on other TDPs. Intel has nothing to match this.
As for these 65W chips, I'm sincerely hoping they are talking about an optional cTDP-up for 45W chips like they have been providing for years already. If the new H-series is 65w only... Oh dear.
Fulljack - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
thankfully OEMs already learned the cooling solution with Intel high power usage for 45W CFL-H and CML-H ;)jokes aside, the same sadly can't be said the same for 45W Renoir. it seems like OEMs couldn't put great cooling solution while also using 45W Renoir chip.
oleyska - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
54W is turbo for almost 10 minutes, then 45W.54W is also the upper limit by design it seems, only one I know of which does more is XMG(tongfan or what it's called) does 72W.
Spunjji - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
"If I compare the high-TDP CPU, I can pretend the 15W versions don't exist"You, a clown.
yeeeeman - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
AMD has the benefit of using tsmc process. Also 10w is doable at very low frequency with Renoir....4900h at high frequency is also very close to 65 eattsdotjaz - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
10W Renoir would have too much performance and cost penalty, it wouldn't be economical especially when 7nm is in short supply.Technically it might be doable, but in reality it isn't. AMD wouldn't do it. Van Gogh with native 1CCX would be better suited for sub-15W SKUs.
Valantar - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
Sure, if you let it run freely, but the frequency they're able to mintain at both 65 and 45 watts is much higher than competing Intel CPUs. AMD is able to keep boosting above bse even at 45W (and even at 35W for the better binned HD , which is out of the reach of any current Intel chip. Guess we'll see if the new 10nm process changes that.mikk - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Depends on the performance of these cores and don't forget this is probably PL2 because TGL-H should have 45W PL1.xenol - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Strange, I'm pretty sure one of the cellphone/tablet SoC makers can do 8 cores for less.IntelUser2000 - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Sure, but that's 4x Big + 4x Little.Drumsticks - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Just because they have a 10W 8 core doesn't imply that it doesn't go higher. See 4900H as others have said. Just because Intel is making a 65W 8 core doesn't mean they couldn't have made a smaller one if they chose to.Decisions to make 4 core mobiles aside, Tiger Lake seems compelling. If it has a meaningful ST performance increase then Renoir, has better perf/w, and better graphics, I'd give up the performance of an 8 core in my thin and light for everything that's gained there. That said, the MT performance of Renoir will still be unrivaled; we'll have *gasp* highly competitive products from both sides with distinct advantages. Somebody point out the last time THAT happened.
brantron - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
For thin and light, most people would also be upgrading from a lower clocked Skylake / Kabylake dual-core, not a higher clocked Whiskeylake / Cometlake quad-core.My favorite thin and light is the XPS 13, and I doubt it will have an AMD anything, this year or next, so it's not much of a decision process.
However, if more Surface updates include AMD options, that would change things at the high end to apples vs. apples for a lot of people.
Farfolomew - Thursday, August 20, 2020 - link
Not necessarily, Kaby Lake Refresh came out in August 2017, three years ago now. By the time Tiger Lake comes out, that will be over three years that 4-core designs have been offered in the Laptops U-class chips. Many people and businesses looking to upgrade may already have 4-core chips and see that Tiger Lake is only 4 cores and Renoir is 8.Spunjji - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
The fact that Intel are not making an 8-core CPU below 65W on 10nm really does suggest they can't - because otherwise they most definitely would, and have the ability to replace their whole 14nm range.Hifihedgehog - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
You are exactly right. It is all smoke and mirrors. Intel has fallen dreadfully behind the market's moving target. I have little hope they will be able to return to their former grace. They can brag all they want. Ice Lake's 10nm process was broken to begin with, worse than 14nm. It is nothing big to brag about small potatoes when the needle is still far behind the competition.Spunjji - Friday, August 21, 2020 - link
If everything they're saying about it is true, then Tiger Lake will be the first design manufactured on a 10nm process that delivers what was promised in the first place. In theory, that's enough to get them back to a place of competition *if* the yields are also good.The long wait for the 8-core variant of Tiger (and no mention of it on desktop) suggests that either the yields are still not very good, or the procedures necessary to get yields and performance to acceptable levels have reduced overall output (e.g. more manufacturing stages / layers).
Either way, they're not going to have any problem competing in a market sense - they have enough cash to buy a lot of sales.
eek2121 - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
It is amazing as a desktop chip.Ian: has Intel confirmed an 8 core 65W model?
maroon1 - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
65w is likely to the top partJorgp2 - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Yeah, no.Also, doesn't matter if the Intel 4 core runs just as well as the AMD 8 core.
frbeckenbauer - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
they didn't say 8 cores at first, hence my comment. Makes more sense like this of course.Jimbo11 - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Listen first before you make any nonsense comments.FreckledTrout - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Intel is really infatuated with "super". SuperFin now SuperMIM? Its getting to be a bit much especially with the avengers gimmick recently.frbeckenbauer - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Intel Marketing is dubious, but this process node really deserves a better name than 10nm+ if it delivers on these promises.Spunjji - Tuesday, August 18, 2020 - link
These promises just take it a little bit past where it was supposed to be in the first place. 10nm+ would have been appropriate (although if we're really counting this is 10nm++ now).ikjadoon - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
Super MIM was discussed last week...this is nothing new, besides the Q&A at the bottom.tipoo - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
TSMC is buying the same ASML machines that helped create SuperFin, so it would be funny if they called it UberFin or something just to be spitefulMeteor2 - Thursday, August 20, 2020 - link
LolCajunArson - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
I frankly wasn't very impressed by the forum moderator who continually asked questions that are either well-known information (Tiger Lake launches with up to 4 cores with 8 core variants coming later but he kept asking questions on that regard) or that he knew the Intel guys would not answer like cache latency numbers.I would have preferred some more intelligent questions about the design philosophies behind the various functional units, which might be something that they could answer since it wouldn't be divulging an exact architectural number that's still under NDA.
alufan - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
I thnk the one thing that every ones ignoring is the Console chips AMD has some serious fire power tucked into those little boxes just makes you wonder if they will ever release something similar for Desktop use or what do they have tucked away for launch later.drothgery - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
No one's ignoring them, but they're never going to make sense for a desktop. The CPU's nothing special (same as the Ryzen 4xxx APUs but clocked relatively low, so nice, but you can already get better performance from both AMD and Intel desktop chips), and the GPUs are bigger and better than anyone using an integrated GPU on a desktop would ever need. And the console-specific stuff for using GDDR6 main memory and the like isn't useful for a PC.ilkhan - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
OMG liveblog with the updates appearing on the bottom where they should be. Hallelujah!timecop1818 - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
it's always been this? the *live* portion updates on top, then when the event is over everything is flipped back to normal order.Meteor2 - Thursday, August 20, 2020 - link
YesKimGitz - Monday, August 17, 2020 - link
I'm waiting for Tiger Lake H, I'm hoping for 6-8cores 45-65W variants with LPDDR5 in Q1 2021.Meteor2 - Thursday, August 20, 2020 - link
Fair play to Intel. They're trying really, really hard to say "we might be able to catch up to Renoir"