I can't see advantages in adding software and hardware complexity purely for lighting, but addressable RGB seems to be doing just that. More lines of code in which to make errors, more hardware that can fail, and a bigger software footprint for possible compromise and exploitation (nevermind the possible requirement of internet connectivity and awareness of said control software like Razer seems to require which is a by-design potential security problem).
Agree! I wish reviewers could add (estimate) just how much the LEDs and associated hardware add to the BOM. I'd rather have an AIO cooler for $ 5 less with no lightshow. The only time any LED lighting of the cooling fans could be useful if they would activate or change colors with the CPU temperature (e.g. green, yellow, red); that would, at least, be of interest and tell me if the cooler is doing its job.
Well... as much as I agree. I do have a bunch of RGB stuff that I really only have since it came with the gear I purchased. But since I have it, I might as well use it! So I have ALL my RGB linked and it actually is linked to the CPU temp... Nice and cool blue when 45°C or less and burning hot red at 85°C or above. MB has 5, GPU has 20, AIO has 16, and mouse has 2... again nothing I went out of my way to get, but they are there. JackNet RGB Sync is a handy little app for this. All this does have a cost though... 3 apps must be running and they are not light in any way (iCUE, G HUB, and JackNet). Thankfully iCUE has an ASUS plugin so that doesn't have to run and the GPU and board can be linked with a cable so no app for the GPU either... Ugh, I am rambling now, sorry guys.
Would be nice to see a couple of air coolers in the benchmark charts just for the sake of completeness. I wonder if that would paint these liquid coolers in a poor light though.
AIO wins easily which shouldn't surprise anyone. The best air coolers can best the worst AIOs by a little providing you are ok with a cluttered sloppy build and rarely need to open your case for anything and you like having more noise.
Imagine if they tested in a hot room. I have 3 desktops. 1 on custom loop and two on AIO (one Cooler Master and one Corsair). I use to live in Germany, where they don't seem to believe in A/C. So my computer room easily climbed into 85-90F. I couldn't keep any of my machines cool on air.
I seem to be doing alright with my AIOs or my custom loop. My Cooler Master AIO was just $55. My Corsair AIO was $115. I have no idea how much my custom loop was, like $500. Owned each of them between 2-3 years now.
I can't imagine your computers running 85-90F in a room with no AC. Because that is sub-ambient right now where I am. Air conditioning is God's gift to Texas.
Ya, computer room. My CPU sits around 30-35C for my custom loop (dual 360 rads/push pull fans), depending on whether it's winter or summer. My AIOs are in the 40s (240 rads/push pull fans).
On topic: I'd still go with air on any system I plan to keep for a while. I have plenty of machines still operating just fine after close to a decade, I don't want to tempt fate with a liquid loop.
Off topic, Germans don't seem to believe in A/Cs mounted on the outside of every building and the A/C noise that all neighbors have to live with. And I remember years ago my neighbor's A/C unit (not in Germany) keeping me awake at night because that hum and vibration would be heard and felt best in my bedroom. Also Germany wasn't the hottest, most humid of countries when they came up with the policies.
Seattle has that same sort of problem. It only gets hot enough to really warrant AC a few weeks out of the summer during a typical year so most residential construction and some business structures lack air conditioning. The only time its a problem is for those few weeks of summer and when there is an unusual heat wave, but while living there, the point of keeping a PC that doesn't generate a lot of heat or require extensive cooling was sort of reinforced. My desktop made my bedroom feel warmer but my netbook was insignificant. It should be no surprise that I figured out how to stay connected, amused, and busy on just an Atom n270 at that point. :)
I normally just go air for my non-main rig. One is a file server and just sits there, while the other is a backup gaming rig. That one usually just sits there too and I play videos on it, while gaming on my other machine.
I think AIOs are fine, so long as you aren't constantly tinkering around in your machine. The more you mess with it, the more likely something on it might fail and cause leaking. Why I have them in my computers that I don't mess with much and have a custom on my main rig. The custom is a much more robust setup.
As for Germans and A/C, ya. They didn't bother with it, since it really wasn't all that hot and didn't last long. A fan would suffice, but with everywhere being hotter nowadays, people are definitely rethinking it. The last 3 years I was there, every summer the portable A/C units were sold out for the whole season. Peak heat only lasted like 2 weeks, then over time that changed. Went from 2 weeks to a month. Then a 1 1/2 months. Was also getting close to 100F.
Not really, it's just dependant on the size of the radiator. AIOs can be made with later radiators than tower coolers, but it doesn't make AIOs magically better. It's just a matter of how much heat dissipation surface you have. If you get the heat there with heat pipes or pumped liquid is largely irrelevant.
A single digit sample size does not make for reliable data on a statistical level so claims either for or against leak risks would really need a broader collection of data than we have the ability to gather here. That's why I don't really comment much on leaks aside from pointing out we haven't the right information. As far as I'm concerned, other more obvious factors are worth consideration beyond leaking or not leaking (though I do feel for someone losing expensive hardware due to a leak - kinda sucks).
I have added a link to the analogous AT test of the Noctua NH-D15 air cooler. The Fractal S36 here is apparently its equal, while the SS PF360 is some 30+ percent better than the Noctua in these metrics.
However, even with this advantage water is a niche within a niche (OC) within a niche (DIY enthusiast). Most of the very few who try it will only do so once.
Kind of agree. Most of the people that cross the bridge over to liquid cooling only do so once. Twice for me - one time to get a 100MHz Pentium SSS CPU to reach a stable OC of 133 MHz and once more to torture a VIA 1GigaPro when I was first starting to transition from going all out with as much computer power as possible to a point where I started to enjoy doing everything on as little thermal and energy (and eventually financial cost) demand as possible.
Air cooling is more than enough and the reasons for liquid cooling generally settle somewhere far away from sufficiently fast computing. People buy them to instill in themselves a sense of satisfaction, of self-worth, of achievement, and so forth. For those seeking intangible rewards, I think, it is worth pursuing in order to tell others about the cooling and at least show photos or talk about how a CPU that would otherwise only turbo at peak speeds for 1 second is doing so for 8 seconds or how the temps are down a full five degrees when they were already far away from the maximum safe tolerances of the hardware or even how it will extend the CPU's lifespan when, ultimately, an upgrade would replace it with a newer chip long before something like that would ever matter.
The anti water crowd is bizarre. You don't like it for whatever reason, so you argue the reality that it is just plain better. Modern high end air is *good enough*, and it is cheaper, but it is louder and less effective.
You'll only go water once....? After my first build every enthusiast grade build I've done has been under water, at this point it's easier than dealing with the monstrosity of air coolers- admittedly that is due to cases now being designed for water(used to be a pain).
This FUD campaign against AIOs is absurd, they are just plain better at the cost of being more expensive.
The advantage of water is that you can have a radiator somewhere other than directly over the heat source.
Whether you are using air or water, the heat still had to go somewhere. You still have to blow air over fins. The steady state temp under load will be equal between air or water given the surface area of radiator fins.
If you want a giant radiator in a small case, you need to go water so you jam a 360mm radiator on the side of the case.
Please be aware that if you have a full size atx case where you can fit a giant air cooler over the CPU, it will for sure be quieter because it doesn't have to run a water pump.
Where did you get the idea that pumps are noisier than fans...? We have tons of reviews with measured sound levels, can you link any that show a plump being louder than a fan?
You don't know much about air cooling, do you? How in the world is a heatsink more cluttered than a radiator, with hoses, and more wires.
My 3800x oc'd on air never goes over 72c and is quieter than any pump made. Even if water cooling could make it cooler, it doesn't get me anywhere. The CPU will run the same.
The only issue with air is that a lot of cases are very poor in design, and users don't know how or where to set up their fans properly.
And dealing with the monstrosity of an air cooler? Apparently tightening down two screws is harder to deal with than the maintenance of water cooling?
My radiator is underneath my motherboard, I have my hose and block visible. Again, air is more cluttered.
Oddly enough I also have a 3800x, 66c is where it maxes after stress testing for about an hour, normal use it rarely hits 50c.
Swapping RAM in and out is a snap no matter what slot it's in, never have to worry about VRM clearance either, in fact I don't even glance at those factors when selecting a motherboard.
Even if I were to use the stock cooler that came with my processor, we glanced at what it would look like, things start getting tight and that is certainly more compact than a decent air cooler.
You end up exchanging the same amount of heat with air at some point even if you do use liquid to transfer it - thus you still have to push air over a finned metal mass somewhere in the process. Yes fluid density is higher and its easier in some cases to put it in a situation where dispersal is more effective, but the point I'm making is that there are few instances where it is a necessity to do so when operating consumer computing equipment. In a home PC, liquid cooling is done more for emotional rather than practical reasons as you can see by your own defensiveness and the highly charged responses of others that feel threatened by observations that point out the benefits are somewhat limited and generally not significant improvements beyond feelings and emotions.
Some people will happily argue that smaller cases require liquid cooling. Well, smaller cases are an end-user choice as most of us ultimately live in a sufficiently large living space so that something with higher interior volume is workable. Even Hong Kong closet apartments generally have the cubic volume necessary to handle a MicroATX PC, though I can rationally see why many residents there use only a smartphone or are in economic situations that make any compute technology out of reach. Still, small cases that mandate water cooling due to high wattage component selection - that's also a personal choice just like liquid cooling and one that boils down to feelings and emotions.
It's the same for lots and lots of other purchase decisions people make on an on-going basis. Most are emotionally driven. There is no shame in admitting that is the case as we all constantly use mainly our emotions to make choices. You like the idea of liquid cooling. It gives you the right feelings from which you derive joy. Don't worry about it in that case. Buy what you like with your own income and don't be bothered by the rest of us that don't see a tangible benefit.
You are using emotion about your feel feels, we are quoting measured readings.
Furthermore, this is an article about liquid cooling, why jump in if you are some air zealot? That sounds rather emotional to me.
Liquid runs cooler, liquid runs quieter. You want to run a potato build all the power to you, you won't see me trolling a potato build article saying you need to drop a few grand for an acceptable machine.
I don't build computers, friend. Not these days. I haven't had a desktop PC in a number of years and my couple of laptops are an Acer Aspire ES1-111M-C7DE (Linux) with a RAM and SSD upgrade and a Dell Latitude 3160 (Win10) also with aftermarket RAM and SSD. Neither even has a fan as they both use low TDP CPUs. I'm just here to chatter with the less aggressive folks in the comments box mainly about computer security, which was what my opening post about this particular cooler was concerning if you'd like to circle back around and take a look. There's little reason for me to invest much feeling one way or the other in liquid coolers though I do see significant emotionally-driven influence in your responses. As I maintained earlier, it's perfectly find that you have those feelings and operate with them, but I do find it a bit disappointing that you allow yourself to be so blinded by emotion that you attempt to impress an opposing bias on someone else so you feel as though it creates in a uninvested bystander, a nemesis worthy of your ire.
I don't look at the names of posters, I look at the message they posted. You chose to post in the comments thread on an article about an add in water cooler to spread misinformation and FUD. People who use water only do so once? I haven't met a single person, ever, who falls into that category.
Water runs cooler and it is quieter while being more expensive. That is a factual statement.
You take exception to the facts and imply some level of emotion to be at play.... bizarre.
Water cooling is a frivolity, as is the process of building a computer in the first place. This article is about a component used in building a computer, a certain level of frivolity should be self evident.
What misinformation and FUD are you talking about? You're still trying to demonize the person behind a message you dislike by making accusations that aren't supported in the very text you are responding to because you feel threatened over something you bought for your personal enjoyment. That's rather - I guess the best way to express it is to simply say that's young and lacking in life experience.
Two seconds to prove that implication absolutely wrong.
Most people only go water once
This isn't quite so fast, but any time spent on enthusiast forums will show you that certainly isn't true.
Air cooling is more that enough ...
10900K would line to have a word.
We don't have a large enough sample size to know how common leaks are.....
Again, go to any enthusiast forum and ask around. There is a reason water cooling went from a tiny niche to the norm for the high end enthusiast market.
I haven't attacked *you* at all, I don't know you and have nothing against you. I have an issue with FUD and with people who troll discussions about products they have something against. I don't like SFF PCs, they aren't for me. I do not spend my time trolling articles about products used to make them.
Also, you continue to claim that there is an emotional reason to go water when hard data points say you are flat out wrong. Water is cooler, water is quieter. This is measured data, this isn't some feeling.
I'm not debating that liquid cooling results in lower temps. Noise is a different critter as that varies based on what specific cooler you happen to be using so claiming something is universally quieter is incorrect.
Back to the point of cooler. Sure a CPU will run at a lower temp, but if something is cool enough on some sort non-liquid HSF, then using a liquid setup will give you an on-paper advantage that won't matter. That's a point you're avoiding acknowledging as a result of personal bias.
Your two primary points are moot. Your argument that liquid cooling is the norm is not supported by any statistical data from a credible source. What sample of sales data do you have at your disposal to support an assertion of popularity? Is it purely personal experience or do you have information you can supply that can support that?
You didn't even read the entire post I made about leaks before quoting it as support for a perception of bias. If you had, you wouldn't have included it because you would have figured out I was advising against judging liquid cooling based on leak potential since we don't have good sample data available to cite it as an inherent problem. You're seeing what you want to see and making me into a threat to support an uninformed notion I have something against liquid cooling that warrants your spending so much effort to defend it. That's very emotional of you.
Do you not follow the high end CPU market? Legit question. Boost clock speeds vary based on voltage and temperature of the die, cooler running chips require less voltage so on both fronts there is a tangible and measurable edge to using water, in most cases it is mild, but in instances like the 10900k it can be a rather sizable margin.
For noise water is quieter than air. American citizens are taller than Chinese citizens, that is both a true statement and obviously not universal.Yao Ming is taller than anyone I know IRL, but that doesn't make the overwhelming data less true.
The leaks issue, we have a rather huge sample size between all of the various forums combined with most of the enthusiast tech outlets. Given that a water cooler leak is likely the second most catastrophic failure behind a PSU 'explosion' it is a rather safe bet it isn't common. I could say ants bring dynamite into a close and blow it up, can you link a study proving that's wrong?
Air is "good enough"- and a ten year old dual core CPU is "good enough" for most things too. It isn't a emotional statement to say an Oct core is better.
far more cluttered? wtf? Yeah a tower cooler is larger than an AIO block, but you act like the radiator doesn't exist. It's bigger than most towers, and requires tubes running between the block and the radiator. You're still running fans through the radiator, plus pump noise. You sound like you spent some money on water and need to justify the expense
Mamiya, I wouldn’t waste my time replying to that... (how do you call a stupid person stupid without being crucified for it?).
Anyway, his radiator fans don’t make noise but the fans on everyone’s air coolers do. And his water pump is completely silent. Oh, whoever uses air cooler don’t have that cool pump he has.
There is a measurement for noise that people have figured out, they use the term decibels. Using measuring devices they can tell how loud certain things are in relation to one another. All of the things we have discussed have been measured for the amount of noise they generate.
Air cooler fans are the loudest out of the three(factoring for thermal dissipation). Water cooler fans are the middle tier(mainly due to being capable of operating at lower RPMs) Water pumps generate the least amount of noise out of these three devices.
These are documented measurements, not feel feels of trolls that are trying to trash a type of technology in the comments of an article about said technology.
Calling someone a troll when there is no trolling happening is usually one of the last lines of defense by means of attack a person with a computer tech interest and insecurities about said interest makes in order to invalidate information they do not want to accept. Usually someone in that mindset also ends up posting prices of their computer hardware eventually in order to cloak a bragging session about what they spent as a portion of some reasonable (to them at least) way of explaining something. I see you've done that second part as well, Mister Skywalker.
I'm going to go into a discussion about a water cooler to trash water coolers and that isn't trolling...? If this were an air cooler you would have a point, but alas.
I was accused of trying to justify my purchase, the point of listing prices is simple- there is *ZERO* justification for any of it and more importantly, I don't need to justify anything to anyone excerpt the wife.
What you don't understand about sound is that decibels are not the deciding factor for most people on whether they care about the noise. It's the frequency and vibration. And pumps are some of the worst for annoying people. Just like a mosquito isn't loud, but it is annoying. That is why you will see so many threads about pump noise, even if fan noise was higher in decibles on their system. To say that pumps are quieter than slow moving fans is fanboyism at it's best. There is no possible way due to how fast a pump spins with water running through it.
My radiator and all its accompanying fans are behind the tray my motherboard is mounted to. Pump noise is some interesting FUD I hear from the never so much as seen a water cooled setup in my life crowd, but the fans are *much* louder than the pump in every setup I have ever seen, they pale in comparison to the noise created by air cooling.
So, show me an air cooled setup where I can mount the tower remotely so I can have a clean appearance? You up to it?
Justifying the expense....? So it isn't the $300 I spent on a case, the extra $100 I spent for Royal RAM over regular RAM, it isn't the $1300 I dropped on a 4k/120HZ GSync monitor or the $1300 graphics card, it isn't the $500 I spent on my DAC/Amp/Cans or the $250 I spent on my mouse and keyboard, no, what I need to justify is the extra $75 for a water cooler over air.......
We have a frivolous hobby. As much as I spent building what most people think is an insanely over the top setup, it still cost quite a bit less than my buddies rims he just bought, or a couple of days vacation time with the family, he'll the gap between air and water is a small Friday night bar tab.
Water is FAR noisier. I dont hear my D15 at all. AT ALL. I could still increase its RPM if needed, or add another fan (only running 1) and still be far more silent than any water system Ive ever heard.
Sound measurements are done, articles linked. For the same level of cooling water is quieter. That doesn't mean you can't build a quiet air setup, it just means at the same noise level water would run cooler.
Where are you putting your microphones then? The pump or the radiator fans? Huge difference.
You cant reach the cooling custom water has with air coolers, no matter what. So such a comparison is nonsense in either way. Only AIOs are comparable. And they are FAR noisier than air.
If you're using an SFF PC, a CLC or other liquid cooler may be the only way to get excellent cooling since the best air coolers are fairly tall and need a full sized case.
Some do cool better. But not by much. Maybe 5 C at best. Thats not worth it at all, especially those that can do that are extremely expensive. But they are also louder. The pumps are hard to get silent even in very professionally damped cases, because its a very low frequency hum that vibrates the whole case. Imagine an external 3.5" HDD sitting on your desk.
Well thats short sighted, I moved from a desktop midi tower to an itx case (Old CM Elite 130) which sits the PSU above the cpu and the standard Ryzen 5 1600 cooler was too tall for it to fit.
So i either chose a low profile air cooler (which basically couldn't breath which meant no overclock) or replace it with an AIO. The AIO was a much better fit for the job.
Not sure that's an accurate assumption. People have a variety of tastes in what constitutes something that looks "fantastic" so you will see variance and differing opinions regarding what impact RGB has on a computer. If you enjoy it and feel it is worth the additional software and hardware along with all that comes along with it, then go for it and enjoy yourself. On the other hand, failing to note the possible security problems, additional raw materials investment (and potential environmental damage the extras require - every little bit we conserve of our world helps in some small way) and other ramifications would be irresponsible of us.
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wish we'd get a teardown of the pumpblock, seems like after many years of asetek stagnation we're finally seeing performance move forward again in AIOs
Maybe my information is outdated, but isn't there a small, but significant difference in the overall shape (slightly concave vs. slightly convex) of AMD's vs. Intel's heat spreaders that can really affect cooling performance? I may have missed it, but are the copper blocks "fitted" to the respective CPU type? If not, some of that cooling potential is likely being wasted.
Also, with current "enthusiast" kind Intel CPUs reaching over 250 W TDP at peak use, any chance of showing results with a steady 250 or 200 W load?
Yeah, I should have been clearer; that comment/request was in regard to the last graph, which doesn't have the drop-down selection, and is for 100W only. Interestingly, no response by anyone yet on the question about the shape of the copper block; I didn't think it'd matter, until I read some tests that showed a pretty significant difference depending on how true the heatsink matches the heat spreader's shape
And thats with 2 fans. Plus you always have the option to sound-insulate your case, which helps a lot on air coolers, while the pumps of AIOs are pretty impossible to get silent due to their vibration.
If my colleague working with permafrost research would be into stationary PCs I'd buy this for him at once. =) That said, I may consider this in a mITX build for myself at some point. (I've only had one AIO - an Asetek for LGA775, years ago. Wasn't bothered with the relatively minor pump noise. Have since used Noctua air coolers and been happy with that.)
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PeachNCream - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
I can't see advantages in adding software and hardware complexity purely for lighting, but addressable RGB seems to be doing just that. More lines of code in which to make errors, more hardware that can fail, and a bigger software footprint for possible compromise and exploitation (nevermind the possible requirement of internet connectivity and awareness of said control software like Razer seems to require which is a by-design potential security problem).eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Agree! I wish reviewers could add (estimate) just how much the LEDs and associated hardware add to the BOM. I'd rather have an AIO cooler for $ 5 less with no lightshow.The only time any LED lighting of the cooling fans could be useful if they would activate or change colors with the CPU temperature (e.g. green, yellow, red); that would, at least, be of interest and tell me if the cooler is doing its job.
QB the Slayer - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Well... as much as I agree. I do have a bunch of RGB stuff that I really only have since it came with the gear I purchased. But since I have it, I might as well use it! So I have ALL my RGB linked and it actually is linked to the CPU temp... Nice and cool blue when 45°C or less and burning hot red at 85°C or above. MB has 5, GPU has 20, AIO has 16, and mouse has 2... again nothing I went out of my way to get, but they are there. JackNet RGB Sync is a handy little app for this. All this does have a cost though... 3 apps must be running and they are not light in any way (iCUE, G HUB, and JackNet). Thankfully iCUE has an ASUS plugin so that doesn't have to run and the GPU and board can be linked with a cable so no app for the GPU either... Ugh, I am rambling now, sorry guys.QB
PeterCollier - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Repeat after me: AIO cools no better than air and will leak.PeachNCream - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Would be nice to see a couple of air coolers in the benchmark charts just for the sake of completeness. I wonder if that would paint these liquid coolers in a poor light though.BenSkywalker - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14621/the-noctua-nh...AIO wins easily which shouldn't surprise anyone. The best air coolers can best the worst AIOs by a little providing you are ok with a cluttered sloppy build and rarely need to open your case for anything and you like having more noise.
khanikun - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Imagine if they tested in a hot room. I have 3 desktops. 1 on custom loop and two on AIO (one Cooler Master and one Corsair). I use to live in Germany, where they don't seem to believe in A/C. So my computer room easily climbed into 85-90F. I couldn't keep any of my machines cool on air.I seem to be doing alright with my AIOs or my custom loop. My Cooler Master AIO was just $55. My Corsair AIO was $115. I have no idea how much my custom loop was, like $500. Owned each of them between 2-3 years now.
Lord of the Bored - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
I can't imagine your computers running 85-90F in a room with no AC. Because that is sub-ambient right now where I am.Air conditioning is God's gift to Texas.
Lord of the Bored - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
I misread that. Computer room != computer.khanikun - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
Ya, computer room. My CPU sits around 30-35C for my custom loop (dual 360 rads/push pull fans), depending on whether it's winter or summer. My AIOs are in the 40s (240 rads/push pull fans).close - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
On topic: I'd still go with air on any system I plan to keep for a while. I have plenty of machines still operating just fine after close to a decade, I don't want to tempt fate with a liquid loop.Off topic, Germans don't seem to believe in A/Cs mounted on the outside of every building and the A/C noise that all neighbors have to live with. And I remember years ago my neighbor's A/C unit (not in Germany) keeping me awake at night because that hum and vibration would be heard and felt best in my bedroom. Also Germany wasn't the hottest, most humid of countries when they came up with the policies.
PeachNCream - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Seattle has that same sort of problem. It only gets hot enough to really warrant AC a few weeks out of the summer during a typical year so most residential construction and some business structures lack air conditioning. The only time its a problem is for those few weeks of summer and when there is an unusual heat wave, but while living there, the point of keeping a PC that doesn't generate a lot of heat or require extensive cooling was sort of reinforced. My desktop made my bedroom feel warmer but my netbook was insignificant. It should be no surprise that I figured out how to stay connected, amused, and busy on just an Atom n270 at that point. :)khanikun - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
I normally just go air for my non-main rig. One is a file server and just sits there, while the other is a backup gaming rig. That one usually just sits there too and I play videos on it, while gaming on my other machine.I think AIOs are fine, so long as you aren't constantly tinkering around in your machine. The more you mess with it, the more likely something on it might fail and cause leaking. Why I have them in my computers that I don't mess with much and have a custom on my main rig. The custom is a much more robust setup.
As for Germans and A/C, ya. They didn't bother with it, since it really wasn't all that hot and didn't last long. A fan would suffice, but with everywhere being hotter nowadays, people are definitely rethinking it. The last 3 years I was there, every summer the portable A/C units were sold out for the whole season. Peak heat only lasted like 2 weeks, then over time that changed. Went from 2 weeks to a month. Then a 1 1/2 months. Was also getting close to 100F.
Slash3 - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
I love how the top two best results in every graph on that page are air coolers.Slash3 - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Haha, hoist by my own petard. They're all air coolers in those graphs.Flunk - Monday, June 22, 2020 - link
Not really, it's just dependant on the size of the radiator. AIOs can be made with later radiators than tower coolers, but it doesn't make AIOs magically better. It's just a matter of how much heat dissipation surface you have. If you get the heat there with heat pipes or pumped liquid is largely irrelevant.hansmuff - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Repeat after me: there are other benefits and they are worth it to some.eek2121 - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Baseless argument. I have been using AIOs for a long time and have never had a leak. One of my units is 6 years old and is used daily.WaWaThreeFIVbroS - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
That doesn't mean others never had their AIOs leaked, my AIO leaked and broke the GTX 980 beloe it, never againPeachNCream - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
A single digit sample size does not make for reliable data on a statistical level so claims either for or against leak risks would really need a broader collection of data than we have the ability to gather here. That's why I don't really comment much on leaks aside from pointing out we haven't the right information. As far as I'm concerned, other more obvious factors are worth consideration beyond leaking or not leaking (though I do feel for someone losing expensive hardware due to a leak - kinda sucks).Arbie - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
I have added a link to the analogous AT test of the Noctua NH-D15 air cooler. The Fractal S36 here is apparently its equal, while the SS PF360 is some 30+ percent better than the Noctua in these metrics.However, even with this advantage water is a niche within a niche (OC) within a niche (DIY enthusiast). Most of the very few who try it will only do so once.
PeachNCream - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Kind of agree. Most of the people that cross the bridge over to liquid cooling only do so once. Twice for me - one time to get a 100MHz Pentium SSS CPU to reach a stable OC of 133 MHz and once more to torture a VIA 1GigaPro when I was first starting to transition from going all out with as much computer power as possible to a point where I started to enjoy doing everything on as little thermal and energy (and eventually financial cost) demand as possible.Air cooling is more than enough and the reasons for liquid cooling generally settle somewhere far away from sufficiently fast computing. People buy them to instill in themselves a sense of satisfaction, of self-worth, of achievement, and so forth. For those seeking intangible rewards, I think, it is worth pursuing in order to tell others about the cooling and at least show photos or talk about how a CPU that would otherwise only turbo at peak speeds for 1 second is doing so for 8 seconds or how the temps are down a full five degrees when they were already far away from the maximum safe tolerances of the hardware or even how it will extend the CPU's lifespan when, ultimately, an upgrade would replace it with a newer chip long before something like that would ever matter.
BenSkywalker - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Cleaner, cooler, quieter.Air is hotter, louder and far more cluttered.
The anti water crowd is bizarre. You don't like it for whatever reason, so you argue the reality that it is just plain better. Modern high end air is *good enough*, and it is cheaper, but it is louder and less effective.
You'll only go water once....? After my first build every enthusiast grade build I've done has been under water, at this point it's easier than dealing with the monstrosity of air coolers- admittedly that is due to cases now being designed for water(used to be a pain).
This FUD campaign against AIOs is absurd, they are just plain better at the cost of being more expensive.
ses1984 - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Water is noisier. Pumps are noisy.The advantage of water is that you can have a radiator somewhere other than directly over the heat source.
Whether you are using air or water, the heat still had to go somewhere. You still have to blow air over fins. The steady state temp under load will be equal between air or water given the surface area of radiator fins.
If you want a giant radiator in a small case, you need to go water so you jam a 360mm radiator on the side of the case.
Please be aware that if you have a full size atx case where you can fit a giant air cooler over the CPU, it will for sure be quieter because it doesn't have to run a water pump.
BenSkywalker - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Where did you get the idea that pumps are noisier than fans...? We have tons of reviews with measured sound levels, can you link any that show a plump being louder than a fan?Dug - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
"Air is hotter, louder, and far more cluttered"You don't know much about air cooling, do you?
How in the world is a heatsink more cluttered than a radiator, with hoses, and more wires.
My 3800x oc'd on air never goes over 72c and is quieter than any pump made. Even if water cooling could make it cooler, it doesn't get me anywhere. The CPU will run the same.
The only issue with air is that a lot of cases are very poor in design, and users don't know how or where to set up their fans properly.
And dealing with the monstrosity of an air cooler? Apparently tightening down two screws is harder to deal with than the maintenance of water cooling?
BenSkywalker - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
My radiator is underneath my motherboard, I have my hose and block visible. Again, air is more cluttered.Oddly enough I also have a 3800x, 66c is where it maxes after stress testing for about an hour, normal use it rarely hits 50c.
Swapping RAM in and out is a snap no matter what slot it's in, never have to worry about VRM clearance either, in fact I don't even glance at those factors when selecting a motherboard.
Even if I were to use the stock cooler that came with my processor, we glanced at what it would look like, things start getting tight and that is certainly more compact than a decent air cooler.
PeachNCream - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
You end up exchanging the same amount of heat with air at some point even if you do use liquid to transfer it - thus you still have to push air over a finned metal mass somewhere in the process. Yes fluid density is higher and its easier in some cases to put it in a situation where dispersal is more effective, but the point I'm making is that there are few instances where it is a necessity to do so when operating consumer computing equipment. In a home PC, liquid cooling is done more for emotional rather than practical reasons as you can see by your own defensiveness and the highly charged responses of others that feel threatened by observations that point out the benefits are somewhat limited and generally not significant improvements beyond feelings and emotions.Some people will happily argue that smaller cases require liquid cooling. Well, smaller cases are an end-user choice as most of us ultimately live in a sufficiently large living space so that something with higher interior volume is workable. Even Hong Kong closet apartments generally have the cubic volume necessary to handle a MicroATX PC, though I can rationally see why many residents there use only a smartphone or are in economic situations that make any compute technology out of reach. Still, small cases that mandate water cooling due to high wattage component selection - that's also a personal choice just like liquid cooling and one that boils down to feelings and emotions.
It's the same for lots and lots of other purchase decisions people make on an on-going basis. Most are emotionally driven. There is no shame in admitting that is the case as we all constantly use mainly our emotions to make choices. You like the idea of liquid cooling. It gives you the right feelings from which you derive joy. Don't worry about it in that case. Buy what you like with your own income and don't be bothered by the rest of us that don't see a tangible benefit.
BenSkywalker - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Emotional? It's cooler and quieter.You are using emotion about your feel feels, we are quoting measured readings.
Furthermore, this is an article about liquid cooling, why jump in if you are some air zealot? That sounds rather emotional to me.
Liquid runs cooler, liquid runs quieter. You want to run a potato build all the power to you, you won't see me trolling a potato build article saying you need to drop a few grand for an acceptable machine.
PeachNCream - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
I don't build computers, friend. Not these days. I haven't had a desktop PC in a number of years and my couple of laptops are an Acer Aspire ES1-111M-C7DE (Linux) with a RAM and SSD upgrade and a Dell Latitude 3160 (Win10) also with aftermarket RAM and SSD. Neither even has a fan as they both use low TDP CPUs. I'm just here to chatter with the less aggressive folks in the comments box mainly about computer security, which was what my opening post about this particular cooler was concerning if you'd like to circle back around and take a look. There's little reason for me to invest much feeling one way or the other in liquid coolers though I do see significant emotionally-driven influence in your responses. As I maintained earlier, it's perfectly find that you have those feelings and operate with them, but I do find it a bit disappointing that you allow yourself to be so blinded by emotion that you attempt to impress an opposing bias on someone else so you feel as though it creates in a uninvested bystander, a nemesis worthy of your ire.BenSkywalker - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
I don't look at the names of posters, I look at the message they posted. You chose to post in the comments thread on an article about an add in water cooler to spread misinformation and FUD. People who use water only do so once? I haven't met a single person, ever, who falls into that category.Water runs cooler and it is quieter while being more expensive. That is a factual statement.
You take exception to the facts and imply some level of emotion to be at play.... bizarre.
Water cooling is a frivolity, as is the process of building a computer in the first place. This article is about a component used in building a computer, a certain level of frivolity should be self evident.
PeachNCream - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
What misinformation and FUD are you talking about? You're still trying to demonize the person behind a message you dislike by making accusations that aren't supported in the very text you are responding to because you feel threatened over something you bought for your personal enjoyment. That's rather - I guess the best way to express it is to simply say that's young and lacking in life experience.BenSkywalker - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
Would air coolers paint these in a poor light...Two seconds to prove that implication absolutely wrong.
Most people only go water once
This isn't quite so fast, but any time spent on enthusiast forums will show you that certainly isn't true.
Air cooling is more that enough ...
10900K would line to have a word.
We don't have a large enough sample size to know how common leaks are.....
Again, go to any enthusiast forum and ask around. There is a reason water cooling went from a tiny niche to the norm for the high end enthusiast market.
I haven't attacked *you* at all, I don't know you and have nothing against you. I have an issue with FUD and with people who troll discussions about products they have something against. I don't like SFF PCs, they aren't for me. I do not spend my time trolling articles about products used to make them.
Also, you continue to claim that there is an emotional reason to go water when hard data points say you are flat out wrong. Water is cooler, water is quieter. This is measured data, this isn't some feeling.
PeachNCream - Tuesday, June 23, 2020 - link
I'm not debating that liquid cooling results in lower temps. Noise is a different critter as that varies based on what specific cooler you happen to be using so claiming something is universally quieter is incorrect.Back to the point of cooler. Sure a CPU will run at a lower temp, but if something is cool enough on some sort non-liquid HSF, then using a liquid setup will give you an on-paper advantage that won't matter. That's a point you're avoiding acknowledging as a result of personal bias.
Your two primary points are moot. Your argument that liquid cooling is the norm is not supported by any statistical data from a credible source. What sample of sales data do you have at your disposal to support an assertion of popularity? Is it purely personal experience or do you have information you can supply that can support that?
You didn't even read the entire post I made about leaks before quoting it as support for a perception of bias. If you had, you wouldn't have included it because you would have figured out I was advising against judging liquid cooling based on leak potential since we don't have good sample data available to cite it as an inherent problem. You're seeing what you want to see and making me into a threat to support an uninformed notion I have something against liquid cooling that warrants your spending so much effort to defend it. That's very emotional of you.
BenSkywalker - Tuesday, June 23, 2020 - link
Do you not follow the high end CPU market? Legit question. Boost clock speeds vary based on voltage and temperature of the die, cooler running chips require less voltage so on both fronts there is a tangible and measurable edge to using water, in most cases it is mild, but in instances like the 10900k it can be a rather sizable margin.For noise water is quieter than air. American citizens are taller than Chinese citizens, that is both a true statement and obviously not universal.Yao Ming is taller than anyone I know IRL, but that doesn't make the overwhelming data less true.
The leaks issue, we have a rather huge sample size between all of the various forums combined with most of the enthusiast tech outlets. Given that a water cooler leak is likely the second most catastrophic failure behind a PSU 'explosion' it is a rather safe bet it isn't common. I could say ants bring dynamite into a close and blow it up, can you link a study proving that's wrong?
Air is "good enough"- and a ten year old dual core CPU is "good enough" for most things too. It isn't a emotional statement to say an Oct core is better.
MamiyaOtaru - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
far more cluttered? wtf? Yeah a tower cooler is larger than an AIO block, but you act like the radiator doesn't exist. It's bigger than most towers, and requires tubes running between the block and the radiator. You're still running fans through the radiator, plus pump noise. You sound like you spent some money on water and need to justify the expenseMamiyaOtaru - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
PStell me how cluttered this is http://chattypics.com/files/new2_vwdn60vl4h.jpg
BenSkywalker - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
That looks like an OEM system. If that's what you want, all the power to you.sonny73n - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
Mamiya, I wouldn’t waste my time replying to that... (how do you call a stupid person stupid without being crucified for it?).Anyway, his radiator fans don’t make noise but the fans on everyone’s air coolers do. And his water pump is completely silent. Oh, whoever uses air cooler don’t have that cool pump he has.
BenSkywalker - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
There is a measurement for noise that people have figured out, they use the term decibels. Using measuring devices they can tell how loud certain things are in relation to one another. All of the things we have discussed have been measured for the amount of noise they generate.Air cooler fans are the loudest out of the three(factoring for thermal dissipation).
Water cooler fans are the middle tier(mainly due to being capable of operating at lower RPMs)
Water pumps generate the least amount of noise out of these three devices.
These are documented measurements, not feel feels of trolls that are trying to trash a type of technology in the comments of an article about said technology.
PeachNCream - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
Calling someone a troll when there is no trolling happening is usually one of the last lines of defense by means of attack a person with a computer tech interest and insecurities about said interest makes in order to invalidate information they do not want to accept. Usually someone in that mindset also ends up posting prices of their computer hardware eventually in order to cloak a bragging session about what they spent as a portion of some reasonable (to them at least) way of explaining something. I see you've done that second part as well, Mister Skywalker.BenSkywalker - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
I'm going to go into a discussion about a water cooler to trash water coolers and that isn't trolling...? If this were an air cooler you would have a point, but alas.I was accused of trying to justify my purchase, the point of listing prices is simple- there is *ZERO* justification for any of it and more importantly, I don't need to justify anything to anyone excerpt the wife.
Last line of defense?
Water is cooler, water is quieter.
Facts.
Dug - Tuesday, June 23, 2020 - link
What you don't understand about sound is that decibels are not the deciding factor for most people on whether they care about the noise. It's the frequency and vibration. And pumps are some of the worst for annoying people. Just like a mosquito isn't loud, but it is annoying. That is why you will see so many threads about pump noise, even if fan noise was higher in decibles on their system. To say that pumps are quieter than slow moving fans is fanboyism at it's best. There is no possible way due to how fast a pump spins with water running through it.BenSkywalker - Tuesday, June 23, 2020 - link
Citing hard data is "fanboyism".....?You saying pump noise is on a frequency you find more annoying is one thing, louder is a hard data figure and the numbers say I'm right.
I can only assume those complaining about pump noise are basing it off of some custom loop using a junk aquarium pump from years ago.
Also, you do realize that modern AIOs have variable pump speed, right? I'd assume most of them even let you adjust the ramping(the ones I've used do).
BenSkywalker - Friday, June 19, 2020 - link
My radiator and all its accompanying fans are behind the tray my motherboard is mounted to. Pump noise is some interesting FUD I hear from the never so much as seen a water cooled setup in my life crowd, but the fans are *much* louder than the pump in every setup I have ever seen, they pale in comparison to the noise created by air cooling.So, show me an air cooled setup where I can mount the tower remotely so I can have a clean appearance? You up to it?
Justifying the expense....? So it isn't the $300 I spent on a case, the extra $100 I spent for Royal RAM over regular RAM, it isn't the $1300 I dropped on a 4k/120HZ GSync monitor or the $1300 graphics card, it isn't the $500 I spent on my DAC/Amp/Cans or the $250 I spent on my mouse and keyboard, no, what I need to justify is the extra $75 for a water cooler over air.......
We have a frivolous hobby. As much as I spent building what most people think is an insanely over the top setup, it still cost quite a bit less than my buddies rims he just bought, or a couple of days vacation time with the family, he'll the gap between air and water is a small Friday night bar tab.
Beaver M. - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
Water is FAR noisier.I dont hear my D15 at all. AT ALL.
I could still increase its RPM if needed, or add another fan (only running 1) and still be far more silent than any water system Ive ever heard.
BenSkywalker - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
Sound measurements are done, articles linked. For the same level of cooling water is quieter. That doesn't mean you can't build a quiet air setup, it just means at the same noise level water would run cooler.Beaver M. - Wednesday, June 24, 2020 - link
Where are you putting your microphones then?The pump or the radiator fans? Huge difference.
You cant reach the cooling custom water has with air coolers, no matter what. So such a comparison is nonsense in either way.
Only AIOs are comparable. And they are FAR noisier than air.
BenSkywalker - Wednesday, June 24, 2020 - link
I linked to air, this article has AIO numbers, air is louder. It's a safe bet all of using water have a lot of experience with air.Mic is normally placed roughly one meter away although it varies based on the person testing it is almost always noted.
AIOs are quieter than air.
JimRamK - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
If you're using an SFF PC, a CLC or other liquid cooler may be the only way to get excellent cooling since the best air coolers are fairly tall and need a full sized case.BenSkywalker - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
When will they leak? Had one going for about a decade now, hasn't happened yet. Also, saying they cool equally is just plain wrong.liquid_c - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
You have never used an AIO cooler. Of that, i’m sure.Beaver M. - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
You have very bad hearing, of that I am sure.Lord of the Bored - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Repeat after me: I mostly want to feel superior to people that use technology diffrently than I do!Beaver M. - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
Repeat after me: Projection doesnt help my case.Beaver M. - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
Some do cool better. But not by much. Maybe 5 C at best. Thats not worth it at all, especially those that can do that are extremely expensive.But they are also louder. The pumps are hard to get silent even in very professionally damped cases, because its a very low frequency hum that vibrates the whole case. Imagine an external 3.5" HDD sitting on your desk.
ashoz85 - Sunday, June 21, 2020 - link
Well thats short sighted, I moved from a desktop midi tower to an itx case (Old CM Elite 130) which sits the PSU above the cpu and the standard Ryzen 5 1600 cooler was too tall for it to fit.So i either chose a low profile air cooler (which basically couldn't breath which meant no overclock) or replace it with an AIO. The AIO was a much better fit for the job.
shaolin95 - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
When you have a system fully coordinate with RGB , it looks fantastic..so you are missing the point due to lack of knowledge or experience.PeachNCream - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Not sure that's an accurate assumption. People have a variety of tastes in what constitutes something that looks "fantastic" so you will see variance and differing opinions regarding what impact RGB has on a computer. If you enjoy it and feel it is worth the additional software and hardware along with all that comes along with it, then go for it and enjoy yourself. On the other hand, failing to note the possible security problems, additional raw materials investment (and potential environmental damage the extras require - every little bit we conserve of our world helps in some small way) and other ramifications would be irresponsible of us.ritawgoodman12 - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
Make 6150 bucks every month… Start doing online computer-based work through our website. I have been working from home for 4 years now and I love it. I don’t have a boss standing over my shoulder and I make my own hours. The tips below are very informative and anyone currently working from home or planning to in the future could use this website. WWW.iⅭash68.ⅭＯⅯdrexnx - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
wish we'd get a teardown of the pumpblock, seems like after many years of asetek stagnation we're finally seeing performance move forward again in AIOswarrenk81 - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
page 2 typo: "The bottom of the main block assembly reveals a sizable, square cooper block."eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Maybe my information is outdated, but isn't there a small, but significant difference in the overall shape (slightly concave vs. slightly convex) of AMD's vs. Intel's heat spreaders that can really affect cooling performance? I may have missed it, but are the copper blocks "fitted" to the respective CPU type? If not, some of that cooling potential is likely being wasted.Also, with current "enthusiast" kind Intel CPUs reaching over 250 W TDP at peak use, any chance of showing results with a steady 250 or 200 W load?
PeachNCream - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
I'm seeing a drop down menu option to select various wattage from 60W up 340W including the 200W and 250W options you would like.eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
Yeah, I should have been clearer; that comment/request was in regard to the last graph, which doesn't have the drop-down selection, and is for 100W only.Interestingly, no response by anyone yet on the question about the shape of the copper block; I didn't think it'd matter, until I read some tests that showed a pretty significant difference depending on how true the heatsink matches the heat spreader's shape
p1esk - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
"the contact plate is not large enough to cover Ryzen Threadripper processors"OK thanks
Arbie - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
For those interested, the Noctua NH-D15 is close to the Fractal Design S36 here, except that there's no data on Noctua above 38 dBA:https://www.anandtech.com/show/14621/the-noctua-nh...
Beaver M. - Saturday, June 20, 2020 - link
And thats with 2 fans.Plus you always have the option to sound-insulate your case, which helps a lot on air coolers, while the pumps of AIOs are pretty impossible to get silent due to their vibration.
edwardav54 - Wednesday, June 17, 2020 - link
No RGB please.AdditionalPylons - Thursday, June 18, 2020 - link
If my colleague working with permafrost research would be into stationary PCs I'd buy this for him at once. =)That said, I may consider this in a mITX build for myself at some point.
(I've only had one AIO - an Asetek for LGA775, years ago. Wasn't bothered with the relatively minor pump noise. Have since used Noctua air coolers and been happy with that.)
appsapksite - Tuesday, June 23, 2020 - link
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