How big is the TB3 market? I've never seen it used in my personal life or at work. I am sure there are a few people here and there that have a good need for it, but I've not seen it in my IT career.
Having asked that my next question becomes what are the increased costs involved with adding it? Software, engineering, hardware, support, etc?
I've always wondered if many companies do not utilize it because money wise the ROI is not there.
My employer (university) switched entirely to TB3 docks a couple of years back. Interoperability between docks and laptops is massively improved, and we no longer need the huge desk-eaters that you slot the entire laptop into, so it's a major boon IMO. Don't know if this was initiated by our IT staff or by Dell (main PC supplier) though.
I use it 5 days a week, or used to before all this. We have a mix of Lenovos and Dells with TB3 docks, so the Surface line needing their own docks would just mix things up more.
Can’t you still plug a USB 3.2 into a TB3 dock? Maybe just limits some screen resolutions or refresh rates? My dell monitor has a non-TB3 USB-C connection built-in and it performs great at 4K for office productivity.
Several of our managers using MacBooks use TB3 docks for their office. Keyboard, mouse, and dual-monitors plugged into the laptop via single cable is very handy.
For the Windows side of things, we use USB Type-C docks for the same purpose. It's still fairly rare to find TB3 on Windows laptops. The nice thing about getting the USB docks with Type-C now is that they can be used down the line with laptops that support TB3.
The TB3 docks seem to be less finicky, though. Not sure if that's due to TB3 vs USB, or MacOS drivers vs Windows drivers. Or possibly both.
It's huge in most markets. Especially docks. Almost all our Lenovo's use it. All our content creators use it for external storage. It's a do all that can provide ports and power. Not sure what market your in.
ROI? Almost all laptops come with it now. If you are going out of your way to save $15 compared to convenience, then I'm not sure what calculations you are using. Plus, most don't spend the time to ROI a laptop.
Mass ssd storage, yes. If you are paying a developer $50hr, don't you think a few hundred dollars is worth saving at least 30 minutes a day waiting for file transfers.
How about your IT dept not needing to worry about dock compatibility between all their laptops, and having only one cable to plug into laptop for power and all necessary ports.
I don't buy the security angle, both for what you said and that all their Windows partners are already using it already. I think they just want to sell the Surface Dock, which is a shame for a way to gimp your own product.
Almost everything else about the SB3 I like, I think it really perfected the hybrid form factor.
Also, what's the starting storage, 512 GB SSD on the 15" one? Microsoft announcement actually had *fastest ssd we ever shipped* ?? That's the RGB bling of the tables I guess.
I knew chances of a ryzen 4000 was slim to none given the timing but I was still hopeful. Was looking to replace my tab s2 with something with an equally or more square ratio. A larger form factor and even os switch is fine, but I don't think I can stomach paying for windows on 2 cores in CURRENT_YEAR.
If anyone knows a high-mid to premium 8-10" 4:3 or 3:2 that's windows or android in I'm all ears.
It's weird because the 12nm AMD APU in the 15" laptop was underwhelming but the hope was the partnership would make sense with 7nm AMD products. None of which have showed up in a Surface since.
Probably released too late in the development cycle. Would have loved a 4900HS in the 15 inch, shame they went with a gimped 15W version even though there is more than enough space to accommodate a 35W/45W part like most other 15 inchers
This isn't like most 15 inchers. The screen is a detachable tablet and all the cooling for the CPU has to be in there. So the 15W processor I'm more forgiving of, definitely wouldn't do to have a 45W part in there.
For something beefier that's closer to the MBP 16/XPS 15, the Surface Laptop 15 would probably be a more interesting target, add a dedicated GPU to that.
Still, it is a 15" tablet after all. If they could fit a 15W cooling solution into a 13.5" tablet, they probably could have used the extra space in the 15" for a few more heatpipes or a bigger heatsink to accommodate 35W at least
Yea back when they last refreshed the Surface book (and introduced the Surface laptop?) they added compatibility with Xbox One controllers so you don't need a dongle.
Of course, they also added bluetooth to Xbox controllers after the S, to cover all the bases.
Yea Xbox wireless is basically just another wifi card on AP mode locked to controllers only, afaik. Protocol also supports sound to the headphone jack on the controller.
Doesn't really matter for ~1-2 controllers but past that you benefit from using WiFi compared to Bluetooth.
Because of AMD we are in a place were a $600 notebook beats a "high end" notebook with an i7 in every way possible but build quality. No complains here, just wish we would see some higher end notebooks with Ryzen 4000 series APU's soon. I was really hoping to see a Surface device with a Ryzen 4800U or similar this spring, but it looks like that's not going to happen. Hopefully another manufacturer is releasing a 2-in-1 sooner than later.
AMD's Ryzen 2xxx series was bad enough that no one got experience using the platform. Ryzen 3xxx fixed the problems but massively underperformed. Ryzen 4xxx is obviously a big upgrade, but how are you supposed to know that during your planning cycle?
Also, given Ryzen until recently lacked LPDDR4X support, it makes sense for Microsoft to hold off until their memory controller is more proven. Early Ryzen memory support was awful, a clear weak point of the platform.
Also worth remembering that the planning cycle for a $600 laptop with no interesting chassis design considerations is way shorter than for a top-end fancy design with a proprietary connector that probably needs a very custom motherboard design.
Because normal people only buy Intel laptops... it is hard to understand but most people buy computers, if there is Intel inside sticker, no matter how bad the cpu is.
Microsoft could have updated the ryzen series it already has available. Not just offering Intel, denying people the choice. There are many people who know what they buy and therefore what they are looking for in a product, in this case many people, and myself included, would buy AMD.
Only Surface Book could have it (there is no low power variant suitable for Surface Go). Designing a low volume flagship product around 2 product lines is a pointless expense that would never cover costs - there might be a handful of people that wouldn't buy SB3 without AMD and would buy it otherwise. 99% of comments are from people that will or won't buy SB3 no matter what chip it has.
Picking only AMD from the start in their premium flagship device is a too risky move given previous gen wasn't good enough and new gen coming very close to device release date. That is even ignoring the fact some companies wouldn't even consider AMD devices.
The only thing MS could have updated to Ryzen 4000 is the recently updated Surface Laptop, but that update will come later.
no lte, no tb3, no ryzen 4000... well fuck i'd really like that 15" surface capable talet screen but without lte it's practically dead. without tb3 & ryzen 4000 it'd definitely dead for me.
i'll be back in two years for the sb4 with usb4 and hopefully (fingers crossed!) lte/5g....
Unless the changed it (and it doesn't sound like they did) the dGPU on the SB3 does not "talk" to any of the external ports. So if you hook up external monitors, say to the dock, they are all driven by the Intel internal GPU. Mind you this is an extreme in the area of thin and light and has a wealth of usefulness and portability. But just realize that the dGPU services the internal screen only.
If you're suggesting that the dGPU cannot accelerate 3D content on external displays, that's incorrect. The iGPU is the only GPU connected to any display on the Surface Book line (internal or external) -- and the same is true of any laptop that include both an iGPU and dGPU and use technologies like Nvidia Optimus for power savings. The dGPU connects over PCIe and then displays on the internal screen or external ports through the iGPU. The alternative is to directly connect the displays to the dGPU -- but that means you can never power down the dGPU, which kills battery life and is thus found only on gaming laptops.
It was more of a problem back when Intel IGPs were limited to DP1.2 and HDMI 1.4 for a very, very long time. Some supported HDMI 2.0 with an internal DP1.2-HDMI2.0 adaptor. It even made TB3 more useful then it should have been, since it could mux two DP1.2 signals together, making up for the lack of bandwidth in DP1.2 itself.
Of course, it wasn't really too bad of an issue until HDR (10bit) 4k60 displays started becoming much more common, and Apple wanted to push 5k60+ displays.
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Teckk - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Surface Book 3 the 15" with 32GB RAM sooooo good. Too bad it's out of my budget.Any reason why Microsoft doesn't like TB3?
Ubiqutious - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
>Any reason why Microsoft doesn't like TB3?Ostensibly insecurity in TB3 but the rumor has it they will go USB4 which is based on TB3 anyway... soooo calling rubbish on that.
Holliday75 - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
How big is the TB3 market? I've never seen it used in my personal life or at work. I am sure there are a few people here and there that have a good need for it, but I've not seen it in my IT career.Having asked that my next question becomes what are the increased costs involved with adding it? Software, engineering, hardware, support, etc?
I've always wondered if many companies do not utilize it because money wise the ROI is not there.
Valantar - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
My employer (university) switched entirely to TB3 docks a couple of years back. Interoperability between docks and laptops is massively improved, and we no longer need the huge desk-eaters that you slot the entire laptop into, so it's a major boon IMO. Don't know if this was initiated by our IT staff or by Dell (main PC supplier) though.tipoo - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
I use it 5 days a week, or used to before all this. We have a mix of Lenovos and Dells with TB3 docks, so the Surface line needing their own docks would just mix things up more.flgt - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Can’t you still plug a USB 3.2 into a TB3 dock? Maybe just limits some screen resolutions or refresh rates? My dell monitor has a non-TB3 USB-C connection built-in and it performs great at 4K for office productivity.bernstein - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
at work everyone works on a laptop with a thunderbolt dock. that's 10K machines with tb3...phoenix_rizzen - Monday, May 11, 2020 - link
Several of our managers using MacBooks use TB3 docks for their office. Keyboard, mouse, and dual-monitors plugged into the laptop via single cable is very handy.For the Windows side of things, we use USB Type-C docks for the same purpose. It's still fairly rare to find TB3 on Windows laptops. The nice thing about getting the USB docks with Type-C now is that they can be used down the line with laptops that support TB3.
The TB3 docks seem to be less finicky, though. Not sure if that's due to TB3 vs USB, or MacOS drivers vs Windows drivers. Or possibly both.
Dug - Tuesday, May 12, 2020 - link
It's huge in most markets. Especially docks. Almost all our Lenovo's use it.All our content creators use it for external storage.
It's a do all that can provide ports and power. Not sure what market your in.
ROI? Almost all laptops come with it now. If you are going out of your way to save $15 compared to convenience, then I'm not sure what calculations you are using. Plus, most don't spend the time to ROI a laptop.
Mass ssd storage, yes. If you are paying a developer $50hr, don't you think a few hundred dollars is worth saving at least 30 minutes a day waiting for file transfers.
How about your IT dept not needing to worry about dock compatibility between all their laptops, and having only one cable to plug into laptop for power and all necessary ports.
tipoo - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
I don't buy the security angle, both for what you said and that all their Windows partners are already using it already. I think they just want to sell the Surface Dock, which is a shame for a way to gimp your own product.Almost everything else about the SB3 I like, I think it really perfected the hybrid form factor.
Teckk - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
What's the security angle? Macbook Pros come with only these TB3 ports right?bernstein - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
yeah, but apple has them locked down with their T2 arm chip/firmware combo.Teckk - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Also, what's the starting storage, 512 GB SSD on the 15" one?Microsoft announcement actually had *fastest ssd we ever shipped* ?? That's the RGB bling of the tables I guess.
brontes - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
I knew chances of a ryzen 4000 was slim to none given the timing but I was still hopeful. Was looking to replace my tab s2 with something with an equally or more square ratio. A larger form factor and even os switch is fine, but I don't think I can stomach paying for windows on 2 cores in CURRENT_YEAR.If anyone knows a high-mid to premium 8-10" 4:3 or 3:2 that's windows or android in I'm all ears.
tipoo - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
It's weird because the 12nm AMD APU in the 15" laptop was underwhelming but the hope was the partnership would make sense with 7nm AMD products. None of which have showed up in a Surface since.Retycint - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Probably released too late in the development cycle. Would have loved a 4900HS in the 15 inch, shame they went with a gimped 15W version even though there is more than enough space to accommodate a 35W/45W part like most other 15 incherstipoo - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
This isn't like most 15 inchers. The screen is a detachable tablet and all the cooling for the CPU has to be in there. So the 15W processor I'm more forgiving of, definitely wouldn't do to have a 45W part in there.tipoo - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
For something beefier that's closer to the MBP 16/XPS 15, the Surface Laptop 15 would probably be a more interesting target, add a dedicated GPU to that.Retycint - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Still, it is a 15" tablet after all. If they could fit a 15W cooling solution into a 13.5" tablet, they probably could have used the extra space in the 15" for a few more heatpipes or a bigger heatsink to accommodate 35W at leastbernstein - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
yeah considering the absence of tb3 & lte i was really hoping for a ryzen 4000 cpu...ArcadeEngineer - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
AMD don't make 5w chips anyway, they say it's one of the niche markets they don't currently see as worth pursuing.ingwe - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Hmm looks pretty good. The article says Type C gen 1 whereas the text says gen 2. Which is it?Also what is the Xbox wireless? Is that support for an Xbox wireless controller or something? Just have no idea.
crabperson - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Yea back when they last refreshed the Surface book (and introduced the Surface laptop?) they added compatibility with Xbox One controllers so you don't need a dongle.Of course, they also added bluetooth to Xbox controllers after the S, to cover all the bases.
ingwe - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Ah thank you for answering that. Kind of weird to only include it in one since it can't cost much.lmcd - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Yea Xbox wireless is basically just another wifi card on AP mode locked to controllers only, afaik. Protocol also supports sound to the headphone jack on the controller.Doesn't really matter for ~1-2 controllers but past that you benefit from using WiFi compared to Bluetooth.
Sivar - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Did Microsoft fix the failure-prone Surface Go charger?ilkhan - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Still no TB3, and they waited so long just to not deliver tiger lake.Nope, I love my original Book, but an XPS will be my go to when I buy a tiger lake replacement.
gagegfg - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
AMD has the Ryzen 7 4800U 8/16 cores with the IGPU more powerful than Ice Lake.Intel Core i7-1065G7 it has a little more power in single thread.
gagegfg - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Ryzen 7 4800U 8/16 15W = 15W Core i7-1065G7A Shame....
5080 - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Because of AMD we are in a place were a $600 notebook beats a "high end" notebook with an i7 in every way possible but build quality. No complains here, just wish we would see some higher end notebooks with Ryzen 4000 series APU's soon. I was really hoping to see a Surface device with a Ryzen 4800U or similar this spring, but it looks like that's not going to happen. Hopefully another manufacturer is releasing a 2-in-1 sooner than later.lmcd - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
AMD's Ryzen 2xxx series was bad enough that no one got experience using the platform. Ryzen 3xxx fixed the problems but massively underperformed. Ryzen 4xxx is obviously a big upgrade, but how are you supposed to know that during your planning cycle?Also, given Ryzen until recently lacked LPDDR4X support, it makes sense for Microsoft to hold off until their memory controller is more proven. Early Ryzen memory support was awful, a clear weak point of the platform.
lmcd - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Also worth remembering that the planning cycle for a $600 laptop with no interesting chassis design considerations is way shorter than for a top-end fancy design with a proprietary connector that probably needs a very custom motherboard design.Tams80 - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
All of which is and never should be of any concern to the end consumer.Kishoreshack - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
WHY NO RYZEN 4000 PROCESSORS?haukionkannel - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Because normal people only buy Intel laptops... it is hard to understand but most people buy computers, if there is Intel inside sticker, no matter how bad the cpu is.tipoo - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Most people don't give a crap about the sticker nor know the difference.gagegfg - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
Microsoft could have updated the ryzen series it already has available. Not just offering Intel, denying people the choice.
There are many people who know what they buy and therefore what they are looking for in a product, in this case many people, and myself included, would buy AMD.
Zizy - Thursday, May 7, 2020 - link
Only Surface Book could have it (there is no low power variant suitable for Surface Go). Designing a low volume flagship product around 2 product lines is a pointless expense that would never cover costs - there might be a handful of people that wouldn't buy SB3 without AMD and would buy it otherwise. 99% of comments are from people that will or won't buy SB3 no matter what chip it has.Picking only AMD from the start in their premium flagship device is a too risky move given previous gen wasn't good enough and new gen coming very close to device release date. That is even ignoring the fact some companies wouldn't even consider AMD devices.
The only thing MS could have updated to Ryzen 4000 is the recently updated Surface Laptop, but that update will come later.
Sailor23M - Sunday, May 17, 2020 - link
This would be on my list right now if it was Ryzen 4000bernstein - Wednesday, May 6, 2020 - link
no lte, no tb3, no ryzen 4000... well fuck i'd really like that 15" surface capable talet screen but without lte it's practically dead. without tb3 & ryzen 4000 it'd definitely dead for me.i'll be back in two years for the sb4 with usb4 and hopefully (fingers crossed!) lte/5g....
FXi - Friday, May 8, 2020 - link
Unless the changed it (and it doesn't sound like they did) the dGPU on the SB3 does not "talk" to any of the external ports. So if you hook up external monitors, say to the dock, they are all driven by the Intel internal GPU. Mind you this is an extreme in the area of thin and light and has a wealth of usefulness and portability. But just realize that the dGPU services the internal screen only.amb9800 - Friday, May 8, 2020 - link
If you're suggesting that the dGPU cannot accelerate 3D content on external displays, that's incorrect. The iGPU is the only GPU connected to any display on the Surface Book line (internal or external) -- and the same is true of any laptop that include both an iGPU and dGPU and use technologies like Nvidia Optimus for power savings. The dGPU connects over PCIe and then displays on the internal screen or external ports through the iGPU. The alternative is to directly connect the displays to the dGPU -- but that means you can never power down the dGPU, which kills battery life and is thus found only on gaming laptops.jeremyshaw - Saturday, May 9, 2020 - link
It was more of a problem back when Intel IGPs were limited to DP1.2 and HDMI 1.4 for a very, very long time. Some supported HDMI 2.0 with an internal DP1.2-HDMI2.0 adaptor. It even made TB3 more useful then it should have been, since it could mux two DP1.2 signals together, making up for the lack of bandwidth in DP1.2 itself.Of course, it wasn't really too bad of an issue until HDR (10bit) 4k60 displays started becoming much more common, and Apple wanted to push 5k60+ displays.