Ian, is there a possibility of you making an efficiency chart based on spec like Andrei does on its mobile reviews for ice lake? Maybe include also Renoir when it appears?
In a little under a year Louis Rossman is going to be creating new videos swearing at Apple for pricing up sub-standard parts with these I7-1060NG7 chips having failed due to thermal stresses breaking the solder balls, lol
no need to hate on him, apple isn’t friendly for repair shops like his, and he does discover faults like cheaping out on power modules and concerns about thermal stresses. Still, he definitely overgeneralise a lot of things, like saying all seagate drive must fail eventually, which is quite a stupid comment, every drive will fail right? At the end of the day he hate apple with legit reasons and still applaud apple for things like putting good screens in their laptops, so he is not completely insensible.
The massive thermal stresses from a 9-10W MCP? Why does anyone think that thermals are going to be a problem with these chips? Apple used to sell an 11-inch MacBook Air with 15W CPUs.
The 15W MBA wasn't fanless, for one. Yes I know technically the new MBA also has a fan, but its not connected to the heatsink (only used to blow air over the MB) so it might as well be fanless
Yeah, and I always forget which laws of thermodynamics apply to desktop PCs and which ones are for notebooks. I mean, they’re totally different, right?
TIL laptops live in another universe with different laws of physics. Jokes aside you should also check out server computers, fans also don’t connect to heat sink. If you wish you can make an air duct from the case fan to the cpu heat sink, and remove the heatsink fan, as long as little air leak out, it basically works the same. No one said fans need to be connected to heat sinks, heat sinks cools by having air flow pass through it, as long as there is airflow, it cools. And as long as their is fan in an air duct, no matter how far it is, there are airflow. And as a plus removing heatpipes and directly connecting heatsink to cpu, there is no medium for heat transfer inefficiencies, I.e. the heat sink temperature is closer than the cpu itself, resulting in a more efficient cooling,
The issue is that in a laptop where the heatsink is directly connected to the CPU, the heatsink is stacked on top of the CPU package. Given the slim profile of the MBA, this results in a significant loss in surface area due to lower maximum vertical height (vs using conventional heatpipe + heatsink elsewhere). Basically, in the MBA the heatsink onyl has the space between the CPU die and the bottom cover, whereas a separated heatsink usually has more space, such as between the unsderside of the keyboard cover and the bottom cover.
This is very different from server computers where space (and vertical height) is not as crucial.
Stephen_L seems to be unaware that the cooling layout in servers only works because of the sheer volume and pressure of air being forced through the system. Absent both of those characteristics, disconnecting the fan from the heatsink will increase resistance and decrease the focus of the airflow, reducing performance compared with an equivalent system with a directly attached fan.
It's not the absolute wattage that matters so much as the thermal expansion and how it's handled. If it's not kept sufficiently cool then it could indeed become an issue; "could" being the operative term.
The more likely problem they'll have is getting the things to run anywhere near their boost speed after more than 5 minutes of load.
The custom package is a bit strange given that the chassis dimensions are the same as last years Air. Only thing that seems different with the bottom panel removed is that the heatsink got even weirder, rather than fins there's strange chambers drilled into it.
Maybe this is just building the groundwork for a redesign to take advantage of the smaller size, though this would be far faster than Apple usually sticking to a chassis for a good 5 years.
The Core i5-8210Y in the 2018 MacBook Air was only 20mm x 16.5mm. These ICL-YN parts are 22mm x 16.5mm. They’re bigger than the previous generation, not smaller.
The keyboard in the 2020 MacBook Air is also larger. Overall the device gained 40 g and is 0.5 mm thicker as a result of that.
Hm, if you look at the Ifixit teardown vs the Max Tech comparison to last years Air, there's two different heatsinks on the 2020 model, Ifixit's was just this standard fin type that was a bit bigger than last years, but Max's was this strange block with chambers drilled into it from the vertical orientation. Wonder if there's different heat blocks based on the processor?
Nobody tell him about the entire 128GB surface line or most of Lenovo's lineup. I think he'd have an aneurysm leaning about the xps 13 2in1 with 4GBs of ram.
I've always felt Dell is overrated but 128GB is... the equivalent of their abysmal optical mice that were apparently designed to quickly cause carpal tunnel.
I criticize Apple when they're wrong, and they're wrong often, but this is just blind bashing.
Show me one comparable premium Ultrabook around $1000 that comes with more than 256GB base storage. I think the new MBA is very well priced for a premium thin and light laptop.
All comparable ultrabooks start with a proper 15W CPU. Apple sells a 1000$ compromise with Y chips. They are doing it to protect the 13" mbp. That's the sole purpose of the air. A dual core 9w i3 for a grand is a joke.
The lower wattage processor also offsets the move to the retina screen though. If you want 15W + this weight/battery size, you're probably looking at 1080p.
Does Apple give the most for the money, absolutely not, no one here would argue that, but it is, finally, a well rounded package.
Not at all. Dell's XPS 13 is available with even the 6-core Comet Lake chips in a lighter form factor, with a bigger battery and much higher resolution screen to boot. MS has been shipping the Surface Pro for the last 7 years with 15W chips in a much lighter package and higher res screen. Lots of other examples around.
Tipoo, like amb said.... Surface is giving u a 15W fanless i5 that was praised on this website. Stop defending Apple on this. Apple should've kept the 15W setup that made their past air the best ultrabook. Now it is a joke. A 9W CPU for a grand doesn't cut it.
A video from Austin on YouTube showed that the chip initially draws higher wattage like most intel chips then after a few seconds starts throttling it’s power and frequency to stay near the 10W mark. An old Linus video shows that sufficiently cooling the 12 inch MacBook made it perform better. I wonder if doing something similar like putting a chunk of aluminium heat sink connected might show better performance on the new air such that it can close the gap between a 15w chip and an 10-11w chip (it draws 11w stable) and people might consider the cheaper Air over Pro since they perform very similar so Apple is artificially throttling the air by giving it just enough but poor cooling to keep that gap wide enough. Apple is capable of this.
Apple has been getting custom chips from intel for YEARS. Had a professor back in engineering undergrad who worked for Dell (or HP or someone, can't remember), and he complained that Apple would always buy Intel's top binned chips, and that they weren't selectable by him. It is funny that Apple is considered a "small" PC maker yet Intel will make them custom chips for laptops and desktop, when no other OEMs seem to get anything custom.
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repoman27 - Wednesday, March 25, 2020 - link
So these are the BGA1044 ICL-YN parts then. I was wondering what those were intended for. https://i.imgur.com/9OcJ5CW.pngIn the end, these packages are still slightly larger than BGA1515 SKL-Y at 20mm x 16.5mm.
yeeeeman - Wednesday, March 25, 2020 - link
Ian, is there a possibility of you making an efficiency chart based on spec like Andrei does on its mobile reviews for ice lake? Maybe include also Renoir when it appears?linuxgeex - Wednesday, March 25, 2020 - link
In a little under a year Louis Rossman is going to be creating new videos swearing at Apple for pricing up sub-standard parts with these I7-1060NG7 chips having failed due to thermal stresses breaking the solder balls, loltimecop1818 - Wednesday, March 25, 2020 - link
Fuck rossmanStephen_L - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
no need to hate on him, apple isn’t friendly for repair shops like his, and he does discover faults like cheaping out on power modules and concerns about thermal stresses. Still, he definitely overgeneralise a lot of things, like saying all seagate drive must fail eventually, which is quite a stupid comment, every drive will fail right? At the end of the day he hate apple with legit reasons and still applaud apple for things like putting good screens in their laptops, so he is not completely insensible.Samus - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Big man, insulting someone behind a keyboard.repoman27 - Wednesday, March 25, 2020 - link
The massive thermal stresses from a 9-10W MCP? Why does anyone think that thermals are going to be a problem with these chips? Apple used to sell an 11-inch MacBook Air with 15W CPUs.Retycint - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
The 15W MBA wasn't fanless, for one. Yes I know technically the new MBA also has a fan, but its not connected to the heatsink (only used to blow air over the MB) so it might as well be fanlessrepoman27 - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
It draws fresh air in, through the channels in the CPU heatsink, and then exhausts it out the back of the device.Dissipating 10 W really isn’t that hard. There are chassis designs that can manage 355 W with no fans at all: https://www.anandtech.com/show/15261/turemetal-fan...
Qasar - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
too bad desktop and notebook/portable comps, are 2 different things :-)yeeeeman - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
I don't apple is so stupid that it would need anandtech forum comments to tell them about this. I am pretty sure they tested it.yeeeeman - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Also, if these chips have a 80 degree threshold then nothing will break lose from the motherboard.Retycint - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Narrator: They don't.https://youtu.be/u3JVxraJNdI?t=637
The CPU jumps to 99C and then starts throttling.
repoman27 - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Yeah, and I always forget which laws of thermodynamics apply to desktop PCs and which ones are for notebooks. I mean, they’re totally different, right?Stephen_L - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
TIL laptops live in another universe with different laws of physics.Jokes aside you should also check out server computers, fans also don’t connect to heat sink.
If you wish you can make an air duct from the case fan to the cpu heat sink, and remove the heatsink fan, as long as little air leak out, it basically works the same.
No one said fans need to be connected to heat sinks, heat sinks cools by having air flow pass through it, as long as there is airflow, it cools. And as long as their is fan in an air duct, no matter how far it is, there are airflow.
And as a plus removing heatpipes and directly connecting heatsink to cpu, there is no medium for heat transfer inefficiencies, I.e. the heat sink temperature is closer than the cpu itself, resulting in a more efficient cooling,
Retycint - Friday, March 27, 2020 - link
The issue is that in a laptop where the heatsink is directly connected to the CPU, the heatsink is stacked on top of the CPU package. Given the slim profile of the MBA, this results in a significant loss in surface area due to lower maximum vertical height (vs using conventional heatpipe + heatsink elsewhere). Basically, in the MBA the heatsink onyl has the space between the CPU die and the bottom cover, whereas a separated heatsink usually has more space, such as between the unsderside of the keyboard cover and the bottom cover.This is very different from server computers where space (and vertical height) is not as crucial.
Spunjji - Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - link
Stephen_L seems to be unaware that the cooling layout in servers only works because of the sheer volume and pressure of air being forced through the system. Absent both of those characteristics, disconnecting the fan from the heatsink will increase resistance and decrease the focus of the airflow, reducing performance compared with an equivalent system with a directly attached fan.tipoo - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Just like 10W and 355W are two different things...The MBA can sustain the 10W TDP and a bit into boosts under load, we know that.Spunjji - Tuesday, March 31, 2020 - link
It's not the absolute wattage that matters so much as the thermal expansion and how it's handled. If it's not kept sufficiently cool then it could indeed become an issue; "could" being the operative term.The more likely problem they'll have is getting the things to run anywhere near their boost speed after more than 5 minutes of load.
tipoo - Wednesday, March 25, 2020 - link
The custom package is a bit strange given that the chassis dimensions are the same as last years Air. Only thing that seems different with the bottom panel removed is that the heatsink got even weirder, rather than fins there's strange chambers drilled into it.Maybe this is just building the groundwork for a redesign to take advantage of the smaller size, though this would be far faster than Apple usually sticking to a chassis for a good 5 years.
repoman27 - Wednesday, March 25, 2020 - link
The Core i5-8210Y in the 2018 MacBook Air was only 20mm x 16.5mm. These ICL-YN parts are 22mm x 16.5mm. They’re bigger than the previous generation, not smaller.The keyboard in the 2020 MacBook Air is also larger. Overall the device gained 40 g and is 0.5 mm thicker as a result of that.
tipoo - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
I see, that makes sense then.tipoo - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Hm, if you look at the Ifixit teardown vs the Max Tech comparison to last years Air, there's two different heatsinks on the 2020 model, Ifixit's was just this standard fin type that was a bit bigger than last years, but Max's was this strange block with chambers drilled into it from the vertical orientation. Wonder if there's different heat blocks based on the processor?Oxford Guy - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
256 GB SSD. In 2020. For a premium-grade computer.Only in Appleland™
JMaca - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Nobody tell him about the entire 128GB surface line or most of Lenovo's lineup. I think he'd have an aneurysm leaning about the xps 13 2in1 with 4GBs of ram.diehardmacfan - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Don't forget the Latitude 7000 series that start with 128GB! (for nearly $1600)Stephen_L - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
And we haven’t even started on the surface lineup yet lol.tipoo - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Once you start upgrading the RAM and storage, some of the Surface line looks even worse than Macbook upgrade pricing.At least they moved to an M.2 removable SSD, even if it's a less common subtype.
Oxford Guy - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
I've always felt Dell is overrated but 128GB is... the equivalent of their abysmal optical mice that were apparently designed to quickly cause carpal tunnel.Oxford Guy - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Once again the industry appears to be learning from Apple.MarcusMo - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Isn’t the base spec for the X1 Carbon or the XPS13 also 256GB? So perhaps some other lands as well.Adi_Nemesis - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
I criticize Apple when they're wrong, and they're wrong often, but this is just blind bashing.Show me one comparable premium Ultrabook around $1000 that comes with more than 256GB base storage. I think the new MBA is very well priced for a premium thin and light laptop.
id4andrei - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
All comparable ultrabooks start with a proper 15W CPU. Apple sells a 1000$ compromise with Y chips. They are doing it to protect the 13" mbp. That's the sole purpose of the air. A dual core 9w i3 for a grand is a joke.tipoo - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
The lower wattage processor also offsets the move to the retina screen though. If you want 15W + this weight/battery size, you're probably looking at 1080p.Does Apple give the most for the money, absolutely not, no one here would argue that, but it is, finally, a well rounded package.
amb9800 - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Not at all. Dell's XPS 13 is available with even the 6-core Comet Lake chips in a lighter form factor, with a bigger battery and much higher resolution screen to boot. MS has been shipping the Surface Pro for the last 7 years with 15W chips in a much lighter package and higher res screen. Lots of other examples around.id4andrei - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
Tipoo, like amb said.... Surface is giving u a 15W fanless i5 that was praised on this website. Stop defending Apple on this. Apple should've kept the 15W setup that made their past air the best ultrabook. Now it is a joke. A 9W CPU for a grand doesn't cut it.coreai - Thursday, March 26, 2020 - link
A video from Austin on YouTube showed that the chip initially draws higher wattage like most intel chips then after a few seconds starts throttling it’s power and frequency to stay near the 10W mark. An old Linus video shows that sufficiently cooling the 12 inch MacBook made it perform better. I wonder if doing something similar like putting a chunk of aluminium heat sink connected might show better performance on the new air such that it can close the gap between a 15w chip and an 10-11w chip (it draws 11w stable) and people might consider the cheaper Air over Pro since they perform very similar so Apple is artificially throttling the air by giving it just enough but poor cooling to keep that gap wide enough. Apple is capable of this.colinstalter - Friday, March 27, 2020 - link
Apple has been getting custom chips from intel for YEARS. Had a professor back in engineering undergrad who worked for Dell (or HP or someone, can't remember), and he complained that Apple would always buy Intel's top binned chips, and that they weren't selectable by him. It is funny that Apple is considered a "small" PC maker yet Intel will make them custom chips for laptops and desktop, when no other OEMs seem to get anything custom.