That's assuming that Intel's mobile line gets around to supporting LPDDR5 by next year. Given how long it took to get entirely off LPDDR3, I think we're more likely to see Dell get trickle down sometime in 2022 at which time they might decide we really only need 2GB of RAM at $1200 which is due to inflation of course.
Specifically simulation type of games like Civilization, Cities Skylines, etc. Ones that tend to prefer higher frequencies (both CPU and memory, and lots of cache).
In before OEMs ask "can't you make 4gb dimms" so we can screw over our customers for a other couple of years. The artificial segmentation these days is beyond ridicules,hopeless and sometimes just sad in many industries.
Yup. Even if you don't need a faster cpu or the 4k screen, getting more ram on these ultra lights mean spending almost $2000 just for 16gb ram version compared to the 4gb base $1000 xps 13. And the eco friendly fun part - ram is not user upgradable so you can throw it out in the trash on a few years when it won't run heavier apps / os.
Yes, polpke and milkywayer, it must me saddening and souring to see through like that in those many industries, more so if it includes the ecology angle...
So, here is an invigorating advice from Vandana Shiva, that might help you (as it did with me). Surprisingly, even if she is talking about terrible situations on the many interviews where she is denouncing unknown state of things, she is always talking with a rather a gentle tone and a smile in her face. So once, the interviewer directly asked her about that, and she said something like this: "when I talk, I focus on the awareness and good I try to divulge. I am happy to be able to do this part, and it's better than being angry and sad every time there is something to denounce."
That single piece of wisdom meant hard homework, that I am yet to happily complete. Cheers
The surface pro is a particular egregious offender of this - you pay $300 just to upgrade from 128GB to 256GB (that's a whopping $2400 for 1TB when scaled up), and another $200 to upgrade from 8GB to 16GB of RAM.
Meanwhile, if you bought a laptop with upgradeable ram, you can easily buy a 1TB NVMe SSD for $130, and 8GB of extra RAM for $40. Shocking difference from Microsoft prices
Isn't LPDDR the stuff they put in phones/tablets? it's a different form factor than what is used for laptop/desktop computers. I have a hope that AMD is already working with Samsung/Hynix/Corsair to coordinate a release of consumer DDR5 memory modules for when AMD launches the AM5 socket with DDR5 memory support. RAM before a platform wouldn't sell, and a platform without RAM won't sell, so both sides need to launch at around the same time.
When AMD wasn't seen as a major player, AMD wouldn't be seen as a company to drive a major shift to a new type of memory, but at this point, AMD is dominating the DIY market, so a new generation of processors with DDR5 support with a new socket would probably work. Since it would start with AMD as well, the memory makers wouldn't feel quite as stressed about making 50,000,000 modules available at launch as well(since the OEM computer makers are still getting paid not to offer as many AMD options as Intel options, or to sabotage the AMD based solutions by putting only a single memory module in the machine to go single-channel mode for RAM). So, it could work well.
I don't anticipate Intel really pushing the shift to DDR5 since Intel chips don't benefit nearly as much from higher memory speeds compared to AMD. DDR5 with Zen3(or Zen4) would give at least a 10% performance boost due to the switch from a two channel memory controller to a 4 or even 8 channel memory controller(each DDR5 memory module supports two memory channels, so 4 sticks would allow for 8 channels if supported).
LPDDR4/LPDDR4X is common in laptops, tablets, phones, and other mobile devices. Intel has supported it for quite awhile now.
AMD Ryzen Mobile 3000 was limited to DDR4 (no support for LPDDR4) which is why their power usage was higher, and throughput lower, than Intel-based laptops. AMD Ryzen Mobile 4000 supports LPDDR4.
At least that'll be upgradable! It's ridiculous a lot of these machines like the HP Elitebook's and Dell XPS's have soldered down RAM but an M.2 slot for an NVMe drive, when conventionally we had it the other way around for so long (looking at you Apple)
A pre-emptive question... given what we know about LPDDR5, would it likely be worth waiting for DDR5 (or LP) in a laptop instead of just DDR4, all other components being equal and assuming a game heavy use-case.
Specifically simulation type of games like Civilization, Cities Skylines, etc. Ones that tend to prefer higher frequencies (both CPU and memory, and lots of cache). (duplicate comment, sorry).
With the memory controller being on the CPU, it's not just about the motherboard in the desktop/laptop, it would require a new socket type to support it. For AMD, Ryzen benefits more from faster RAM compared to Intel, so AMD would stand to gain a lot more from the move to DDR5 than Intel would. I don't expect to see DDR5 based laptops until at least late 2021, though I would be happy if it came sooner.
I want a desktop CPU package with 4 slots for 4 channels of SODIMMs with LPDDR5 on 4 sides of it. Short wires would enable both low power consumption (both by memory and memory controllers) and low latencies, and 4 64-bit channels would finally provide enough bandwidth for a half-decent GPU on the package. And such packaging would enable much cheaper motherboards with very few layers.
That would be a challenge for sure. Either you'd occupy an extreme amount of board space with flat SODIMMs on all sides or you'd make the socket incompatible with pretty much every single cooler design on the market if you want traces that short/slots that close to the socket. Not to mention the difficulty of routing other I/O out of a die with RAM traces on four sides.
It would nonetheless be a rather attractive proposition if possible, yes.
The other problem with that surrounded socket design is that wiring to the chipset and other system components like power delivery have fewer ways to reach the CPU package, possibly offsetting some or all of the advantages shorter traces to memory might provide.
Basically something like whats below but DDR5 and 4 sockets instead of 2? Talk to an oem and give them a high enough order count, they'll make something work. Oh, also be ready to fork over a few million dollars.
This sentence is poorly worded "Micron will also soon be offering multi-chip packages pairing LPDDR5 with UFS-based flash storage; these products will be available sometime during the first half of the year." It seems to be Micron own words. The true meaning is: Micron will be offering a storage subsystem to be soldered that'll include an UFS controler, and a stacked NAND die and LPDDR5 DRAM cache die.
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milkywayer - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
And dell will be buying this and putting a whole total of 4GB ram again in their $1000 xps laptops next year.haukionkannel - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Waste not want not!PeachNCream - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
That's assuming that Intel's mobile line gets around to supporting LPDDR5 by next year. Given how long it took to get entirely off LPDDR3, I think we're more likely to see Dell get trickle down sometime in 2022 at which time they might decide we really only need 2GB of RAM at $1200 which is due to inflation of course.Techtree101 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Specifically simulation type of games like Civilization, Cities Skylines, etc. Ones that tend to prefer higher frequencies (both CPU and memory, and lots of cache).milkywayer - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
This is gonna give me nightmares and I won't be surprised if they do it. Cheap fewksvalinor89 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
"Micron's LPDDR5 is available in 6GB, 8GB and 12GB packages"Would'nt the minimum be 6GB?
plopke - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
In before OEMs ask "can't you make 4gb dimms" so we can screw over our customers for a other couple of years. The artificial segmentation these days is beyond ridicules,hopeless and sometimes just sad in many industries.milkywayer - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Yup. Even if you don't need a faster cpu or the 4k screen, getting more ram on these ultra lights mean spending almost $2000 just for 16gb ram version compared to the 4gb base $1000 xps 13. And the eco friendly fun part - ram is not user upgradable so you can throw it out in the trash on a few years when it won't run heavier apps / os.Nexing - Saturday, February 8, 2020 - link
Yes, polpke and milkywayer, it must me saddening and souring to see through like that in those many industries, more so if it includes the ecology angle...So, here is an invigorating advice from Vandana Shiva, that might help you (as it did with me). Surprisingly, even if she is talking about terrible situations on the many interviews where she is denouncing unknown state of things, she is always talking with a rather a gentle tone and a smile in her face.
So once, the interviewer directly asked her about that, and she said something like this: "when I talk, I focus on the awareness and good I try to divulge. I am happy to be able to do this part, and it's better than being angry and sad every time there is something to denounce."
That single piece of wisdom meant hard homework, that I am yet to happily complete.
Cheers
Retycint - Wednesday, February 12, 2020 - link
The surface pro is a particular egregious offender of this - you pay $300 just to upgrade from 128GB to 256GB (that's a whopping $2400 for 1TB when scaled up), and another $200 to upgrade from 8GB to 16GB of RAM.Meanwhile, if you bought a laptop with upgradeable ram, you can easily buy a 1TB NVMe SSD for $130, and 8GB of extra RAM for $40. Shocking difference from Microsoft prices
Targon - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Isn't LPDDR the stuff they put in phones/tablets? it's a different form factor than what is used for laptop/desktop computers. I have a hope that AMD is already working with Samsung/Hynix/Corsair to coordinate a release of consumer DDR5 memory modules for when AMD launches the AM5 socket with DDR5 memory support. RAM before a platform wouldn't sell, and a platform without RAM won't sell, so both sides need to launch at around the same time.When AMD wasn't seen as a major player, AMD wouldn't be seen as a company to drive a major shift to a new type of memory, but at this point, AMD is dominating the DIY market, so a new generation of processors with DDR5 support with a new socket would probably work. Since it would start with AMD as well, the memory makers wouldn't feel quite as stressed about making 50,000,000 modules available at launch as well(since the OEM computer makers are still getting paid not to offer as many AMD options as Intel options, or to sabotage the AMD based solutions by putting only a single memory module in the machine to go single-channel mode for RAM). So, it could work well.
I don't anticipate Intel really pushing the shift to DDR5 since Intel chips don't benefit nearly as much from higher memory speeds compared to AMD. DDR5 with Zen3(or Zen4) would give at least a 10% performance boost due to the switch from a two channel memory controller to a 4 or even 8 channel memory controller(each DDR5 memory module supports two memory channels, so 4 sticks would allow for 8 channels if supported).
phoenix_rizzen - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
LPDDR4/LPDDR4X is common in laptops, tablets, phones, and other mobile devices. Intel has supported it for quite awhile now.AMD Ryzen Mobile 3000 was limited to DDR4 (no support for LPDDR4) which is why their power usage was higher, and throughput lower, than Intel-based laptops. AMD Ryzen Mobile 4000 supports LPDDR4.
Santoval - Friday, February 7, 2020 - link
No, LPDDR memory is used in everything up to laptops.crimson117 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Don't forget the 1TB 5400RPM HDD!Samus - Friday, February 7, 2020 - link
At least that'll be upgradable! It's ridiculous a lot of these machines like the HP Elitebook's and Dell XPS's have soldered down RAM but an M.2 slot for an NVMe drive, when conventionally we had it the other way around for so long (looking at you Apple)Cliff34 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
There is no cpu AMD or Intel that takes DDR5 right now, right?PeachNCream - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Correct. And Micron's own announcement does not really tie LPDDR5 to PC products either. The focus is more on automotive tech and mobile handsets.https://www.micron.com/about/blog/2020/february/ne...
lmcd - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Just a reminder, LP-series DDR versions don't necessarily have that much to do with same-numbered standard DDR series.DDRxL tends to be a low-voltage version of a given DDR version, which is quite different.
Frenetic Pony - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Correct! Though I think Intel's upcoming Tiger Lake might.Techtree101 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
A pre-emptive question... given what we know about LPDDR5, would it likely be worth waiting for DDR5 (or LP) in a laptop instead of just DDR4, all other components being equal and assuming a game heavy use-case.Techtree101 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Specifically simulation type of games like Civilization, Cities Skylines, etc. Ones that tend to prefer higher frequencies (both CPU and memory, and lots of cache). (duplicate comment, sorry).Targon - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
With the memory controller being on the CPU, it's not just about the motherboard in the desktop/laptop, it would require a new socket type to support it. For AMD, Ryzen benefits more from faster RAM compared to Intel, so AMD would stand to gain a lot more from the move to DDR5 than Intel would. I don't expect to see DDR5 based laptops until at least late 2021, though I would be happy if it came sooner.peevee - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
I want a desktop CPU package with 4 slots for 4 channels of SODIMMs with LPDDR5 on 4 sides of it. Short wires would enable both low power consumption (both by memory and memory controllers) and low latencies, and 4 64-bit channels would finally provide enough bandwidth for a half-decent GPU on the package. And such packaging would enable much cheaper motherboards with very few layers.Valantar - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
That would be a challenge for sure. Either you'd occupy an extreme amount of board space with flat SODIMMs on all sides or you'd make the socket incompatible with pretty much every single cooler design on the market if you want traces that short/slots that close to the socket. Not to mention the difficulty of routing other I/O out of a die with RAM traces on four sides.It would nonetheless be a rather attractive proposition if possible, yes.
PeachNCream - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
The other problem with that surrounded socket design is that wiring to the chipset and other system components like power delivery have fewer ways to reach the CPU package, possibly offsetting some or all of the advantages shorter traces to memory might provide.artk2219 - Friday, February 7, 2020 - link
Basically something like whats below but DDR5 and 4 sockets instead of 2? Talk to an oem and give them a high enough order count, they'll make something work. Oh, also be ready to fork over a few million dollars.https://www.asrockind.com/overview.us.asp?Model=IM...
Dolda2000 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
What is the reason why LPDDR is so much faster than ordinary non-LP DDR? Is it because LPDDR needs to be soldered?name99 - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Yes. Direct attachment rather than DIMMs allows for higher speed and lower power. But prevents user modification of DRAM size...Expect the same level of whining as we saw around replaceable batteries, or loss of 3.5” jack, as this reality starts to impact PCs...
ksec - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
Nice, At least iPhone will get another memory bump with the minimum being 6GB.Tuna-Fish - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
> Micron's LPDDR5 is available in 6GB, 8GB and 12GB packagesIsn't that a typo? Aren't the capacities 6Gb, 8Gb and 12Gb?
Billy Tallis - Thursday, February 6, 2020 - link
6-12GBytes are the capacities of the multi-chip packages. Per-die capacities haven't been announced but are likely 12Gbit and 16Gbit.MarionGrandJ - Wednesday, February 12, 2020 - link
This sentence is poorly worded "Micron will also soon be offering multi-chip packages pairing LPDDR5 with UFS-based flash storage; these products will be available sometime during the first half of the year." It seems to be Micron own words. The true meaning is: Micron will be offering a storage subsystem to be soldered that'll include an UFS controler, and a stacked NAND die and LPDDR5 DRAM cache die.Billy Tallis - Monday, June 29, 2020 - link
Not cache. They actually put flash and DRAM both in the same package to both be used by the host SoC.