Genuinely user's do want lag solved wired and wirelessly on both ends and from all tips of users even in areas where it's not really important (like using ASIO for playback on Windows). Things with lag do know to get problatic when it adds from both ends and into something that should be a (almost) real-time as video. But this is not a solution (just marketing), solution would be using lo latency high quality codec like Opus for instance.
Audio lag is a big problem with wireless headsets, even these with "down to 60ms" (meaning real world will likely be higher) will have a perceptible lag vs whatever you're watching.
Two clicks separated by milliseconds with a ramping delay. It's a little harder to discern audio vs image delay, but personally I can tell with just about anything over 30ms.
I'd be willing to be these are using the exact same low-latency codec variants (e.g. aptX-LL) as everyone else is using. Trades decode time for bandwidth & copdec complexity (and thus audio quality), no magic involved. Either it's just standard Bluetooth, or Razer would need to be curating a list of devices that implement whatever proprietary variant they have developed (which they have not).
aptx-LL is mostly vaporware. It requires a dongle on the transmitter side to work. This means it is completely unsupported on Android, iOS, Windows, Mac, Linux... etc. without connecting a dedicated dongle that behaves as a USB generic soundcard and is invisible to the OS, not using its native Bluetooth stack.
aptx-adaptive is supposed to be the next gen version, but only 2 Asus phones support it .. and 1 pair of headphones. It was supposed to be included in Android 9 but once again, after the press release, we heard nothing.
In the last 10 years whenever someone has made a uniquely good wireless product, it's been dongle based or proprietary
this is a misconception. Android and iOS compensate for the 200ms+ lag that Bluetooth audio has by delaying the video by exactly the right amount. This trick works, but only for compatible video playback applications, and never in games.
To see the problem in action, try to play beat stomper or sonic 2.
That's really not a bad price point when compared to that fruit-branded alternative. I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of wireless earbuds. It seems like a sloppy solution to the bad idea of omitting a headphone jack on mobile devices.
When I'm serious, gaming or watching a movie I use my actual earbuds.
When I listen to Youtube tech videos, movie rumors, etc, where audio quality or sync isn't an issue I use one Bluetooth earbud and don't have to worry about the wire snagging on anything.
It's a convenience thing, but mine are also like $10 Bluetooth. My wired earbuds are like $30 Samsung units.
I have almost no lag on my truly wireless Samsung buds, and there's no catch that I notice. They work best with a Samsung phones, work well with most Android phones, and have pretty much normal lag on iPhone. So I think the catch is needing the right hardware and firmware cooperation. I assume the issue here is that BT is a general purpose spec; it badly needs an improved audio-only mode. I'd bet it gets one before long, now that several manufacturers seem to have solutions.
AptX does LL with sub 320Kbps. AptXHD does with Sub 500kbps. LDAC does at 900kbps.
The AptX license is cheap so many devices get that HD one isn't and we know LDAC does ship only with Sony 1000MX series.
Plus all of these need Android to recognize the codec and support it over BT protocol. And all of these use BT connection but not LE mode (Low Energy) thus need higher battery and the fallback option if the connection is not able to keep up will deteriorate the quality of the datarate.
So many unknown bs problems for more price. Vs a regulat Hi Fi Implementation allowing for Studio class processing for instance my V30 has ESS9218P SoC DAC processor which allows user control for Filters and does all Input and Output audio processing upto 192KHz and pristine 24Bit Audio.
These BT sets have Li Ion tech which is planned obsolescence causing them to die after 1-1.5 years if you add IPx rating and seal them in repair is anyways impossible. But it will make them consumables like battery and fast charging them will further ruin them. Look at Tesla technology they have huge racks od batteries and high density thus having long life.
Apple of all fucking crony corporatism did this abomination instead of putting user at control with inbuilt Highly capable DACs like LG with ESS (ships on all high end PC motherboards) or AKM DACs found in Vivo took away and added junk BT audio, Apple latest trash has a garbage driver with sub 200kbps Audio with AAC. No FLAC at all and no control so much price.
Add DRM layer, Licensed for Google junk which was a copy of Made for iPeen by Apple adds more cost like Audeze Cypher Lighting for instance vs an inbuilt superior Audio solution without any bs of Digital DRM..since 3.5mm is pure Analog.
Its a shame that consumer is kept in dark by the press and shills and fanboys thus making the brilliant audio market riddle with half cookef garbage like this.
Going back in advancement... Sad however the Hi Fi Audio will flourish despite this junk. Of all Sony removed the jack while boasting a fat lineup of Hi Fi Audio gear esp when they have in house DACs in WM1Z..
Not to even mention how the Funcl AI released for $49, using aptX for 60ms of latency. I imagine the same method used in these new Razer Hammerheads, considering both have the exact same delay amount. Only difference is Razer's marketing and tax.
Actually all codecs you mentioned go a bit more up with bit rate but never mind that. Answer is Opus. Unfortunately their is no easy solution wired or wireless to get a decent sound quality & loud enough. LG does use Sabre DAC on it's ThinQ series paird with OPA dual AMP but unfortunately severly limited in where you need it most a 32 Ohm's output. Things get better with small BT receivers neck bands (from 22 to 35 mV) better one's do came with good DAC's (Sabre, Cirius, AKM...) but that's still sub pair to target of 50 mV. On the other hand decent portable USB DAC only solution are not that much popular & usually heavily overpriced like DragonFly Cobalt. Increasingly popular "HiFi" USB dongles are uther garbage. So there isn't an easy or cheap satisfactory solution. I will try to give some but remember that they all also have their down sides. Solution one buy good modular earphones with detachable cables and a decent neckband BT receiver. The Tin Audio T2 (around 40$ can get one for 32$ on 11.11)+ ZK BT neckband BT AptX HD QCC with MMCX connectors around 20$ all together around 60$. The BT transceiver (LDAC suport) & DAC Shanling UP2 around 75$, 35 mV at 32 Ohm's use what ever earbuds you like. The USB dac only the TempoTec Sonata iDSD around 70$ (can get one for 49$ on 11.11) has an older Sabre DAC but still capable enough, great Sabre AMP 75 mV @ 32 Ohm's built as a tank Stanles Steel but heavy & bulky for a portable AMP. Small DAP Shanling M0 around 100$, save your phone entirely or use it as BT transceiver or USB DAC. Those are a budget proposals in whatever better fits your needs from me.
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ingwe - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
This product isn't for me. But I am curious, is lag actually a problem that users want solved or is this a marketing grab? Genuinely asking.ZolaIII - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
Genuinely user's do want lag solved wired and wirelessly on both ends and from all tips of users even in areas where it's not really important (like using ASIO for playback on Windows). Things with lag do know to get problatic when it adds from both ends and into something that should be a (almost) real-time as video. But this is not a solution (just marketing), solution would be using lo latency high quality codec like Opus for instance.EliteRetard - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
Audio lag is a big problem with wireless headsets, even these with "down to 60ms" (meaning real world will likely be higher) will have a perceptible lag vs whatever you're watching.Here's an example of audio lag:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zZRy-UArXM
Two clicks separated by milliseconds with a ramping delay.
It's a little harder to discern audio vs image delay, but personally I can tell with just about anything over 30ms.
edzieba - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
I'd be willing to be these are using the exact same low-latency codec variants (e.g. aptX-LL) as everyone else is using. Trades decode time for bandwidth & copdec complexity (and thus audio quality), no magic involved. Either it's just standard Bluetooth, or Razer would need to be curating a list of devices that implement whatever proprietary variant they have developed (which they have not).cloneman - Friday, November 1, 2019 - link
aptx-LL is mostly vaporware. It requires a dongle on the transmitter side to work. This means it is completely unsupported on Android, iOS, Windows, Mac, Linux... etc. without connecting a dedicated dongle that behaves as a USB generic soundcard and is invisible to the OS, not using its native Bluetooth stack.aptx-adaptive is supposed to be the next gen version, but only 2 Asus phones support it
.. and 1 pair of headphones. It was supposed to be included in Android 9 but once again, after the press release, we heard nothing.
In the last 10 years whenever someone has made a uniquely good wireless product, it's been dongle based or proprietary
wr3zzz - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
Only for gamers of fast twitch games. Lag for video on BT hasn't been a problem since Android 7, I think.cloneman - Friday, November 1, 2019 - link
this is a misconception. Android and iOS compensate for the 200ms+ lag that Bluetooth audio has by delaying the video by exactly the right amount. This trick works, but only for compatible video playback applications, and never in games.To see the problem in action, try to play beat stomper or sonic 2.
0ldman79 - Sunday, November 3, 2019 - link
Exactly.Android adjusts for it.
Try watching a movie on a Windows laptop with Bluetooth earbuds. It's almost a half second behind. It's pretty bad.
On MPC-HC I can adjust the audio stream vs the video stream, but by default Windows is just busted. No fix for gaming that I'm aware of.
PeachNCream - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
That's really not a bad price point when compared to that fruit-branded alternative. I'm still not entirely sold on the idea of wireless earbuds. It seems like a sloppy solution to the bad idea of omitting a headphone jack on mobile devices.0ldman79 - Sunday, November 3, 2019 - link
When I'm serious, gaming or watching a movie I use my actual earbuds.When I listen to Youtube tech videos, movie rumors, etc, where audio quality or sync isn't an issue I use one Bluetooth earbud and don't have to worry about the wire snagging on anything.
It's a convenience thing, but mine are also like $10 Bluetooth. My wired earbuds are like $30 Samsung units.
p1esk - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
So what’s the catch behind the reduced latency? I mean if there wasn’t any the official Bluetooth would have implemented it, right?bloodgain - Thursday, October 31, 2019 - link
I have almost no lag on my truly wireless Samsung buds, and there's no catch that I notice. They work best with a Samsung phones, work well with most Android phones, and have pretty much normal lag on iPhone. So I think the catch is needing the right hardware and firmware cooperation. I assume the issue here is that BT is a general purpose spec; it badly needs an improved audio-only mode. I'd bet it gets one before long, now that several manufacturers seem to have solutions.boozed - Friday, November 1, 2019 - link
Did they do it with blockchain™?Agent Smith - Friday, November 1, 2019 - link
I’m wondering if their customised BT driver can be used elsewhere for obvious benefits?Quantumz0d - Friday, November 1, 2019 - link
I'm calling BS on Razer.AptX does LL with sub 320Kbps.
AptXHD does with Sub 500kbps.
LDAC does at 900kbps.
The AptX license is cheap so many devices get that HD one isn't and we know LDAC does ship only with Sony 1000MX series.
Plus all of these need Android to recognize the codec and support it over BT protocol. And all of these use BT connection but not LE mode (Low Energy) thus need higher battery and the fallback option if the connection is not able to keep up will deteriorate the quality of the datarate.
So many unknown bs problems for more price. Vs a regulat Hi Fi Implementation allowing for Studio class processing for instance my V30 has ESS9218P SoC DAC processor which allows user control for Filters and does all Input and Output audio processing upto 192KHz and pristine 24Bit Audio.
These BT sets have Li Ion tech which is planned obsolescence causing them to die after 1-1.5 years if you add IPx rating and seal them in repair is anyways impossible. But it will make them consumables like battery and fast charging them will further ruin them. Look at Tesla technology they have huge racks od batteries and high density thus having long life.
Apple of all fucking crony corporatism did this abomination instead of putting user at control with inbuilt Highly capable DACs like LG with ESS (ships on all high end PC motherboards) or AKM DACs found in Vivo took away and added junk BT audio, Apple latest trash has a garbage driver with sub 200kbps Audio with AAC. No FLAC at all and no control so much price.
Add DRM layer, Licensed for Google junk which was a copy of Made for iPeen by Apple adds more cost like Audeze Cypher Lighting for instance vs an inbuilt superior Audio solution without any bs of Digital DRM..since 3.5mm is pure Analog.
Its a shame that consumer is kept in dark by the press and shills and fanboys thus making the brilliant audio market riddle with half cookef garbage like this.
Going back in advancement... Sad however the Hi Fi Audio will flourish despite this junk. Of all Sony removed the jack while boasting a fat lineup of Hi Fi Audio gear esp when they have in house DACs in WM1Z..
Quantumz0d - Friday, November 1, 2019 - link
Oh also all of these have lag. Except AptXLL.So you pay for all these and still have mediocre junk datarate and lag as well.
Obliterated by dedicated DAC processor.
Now ask the questions to yourself.
TheSaltiestNut - Friday, November 1, 2019 - link
Absolutely beautifully said my friend.Not to even mention how the Funcl AI released for $49, using aptX for 60ms of latency. I imagine the same method used in these new Razer Hammerheads, considering both have the exact same delay amount. Only difference is Razer's marketing and tax.
ZolaIII - Saturday, November 2, 2019 - link
Actually all codecs you mentioned go a bit more up with bit rate but never mind that. Answer is Opus. Unfortunately their is no easy solution wired or wireless to get a decent sound quality & loud enough. LG does use Sabre DAC on it's ThinQ series paird with OPA dual AMP but unfortunately severly limited in where you need it most a 32 Ohm's output. Things get better with small BT receivers neck bands (from 22 to 35 mV) better one's do came with good DAC's (Sabre, Cirius, AKM...) but that's still sub pair to target of 50 mV. On the other hand decent portable USB DAC only solution are not that much popular & usually heavily overpriced like DragonFly Cobalt. Increasingly popular "HiFi" USB dongles are uther garbage. So there isn't an easy or cheap satisfactory solution. I will try to give some but remember that they all also have their down sides. Solution one buy good modular earphones with detachable cables and a decent neckband BT receiver. The Tin Audio T2 (around 40$ can get one for 32$ on 11.11)+ ZK BT neckband BT AptX HD QCC with MMCX connectors around 20$ all together around 60$. The BT transceiver (LDAC suport) & DAC Shanling UP2 around 75$, 35 mV at 32 Ohm's use what ever earbuds you like. The USB dac only the TempoTec Sonata iDSD around 70$ (can get one for 49$ on 11.11) has an older Sabre DAC but still capable enough, great Sabre AMP 75 mV @ 32 Ohm's built as a tank Stanles Steel but heavy & bulky for a portable AMP. Small DAP Shanling M0 around 100$, save your phone entirely or use it as BT transceiver or USB DAC. Those are a budget proposals in whatever better fits your needs from me.