Nothing wrong with Intel Icelake, particularly with their new graphics which closes the gap anyway. I really fail to see the purpose of this first gen "semi custom" design from MS/AMD. There is no doubt this is ALL about future products, this is just a pipe cleaner for the relationship. Im sure there are some great firmware customisations which cant be understated in their importance, but these Zen+ APUs are seriously lacking in the CPU dept. Their 2nd gen, probably even with a higher level of customisation, 7nm Zen2 cores and even better graphics (and MUCH higher memory speeds) will be something special and given Intel's Icelake CPU performance seems to be somewhat lacking due to the clock speeds (its going to take Intel at least another year of optimisations to get their new chips to offer real next generation CPU performance), a highly optimised AMD 7nm APU is going to offer fantastic across the board performance, though the 35w parts will be best. All that said, i feel that Intel's biggest problem has been their integrated graphics up until now. Nothing at all to do with games, but any Intel laptop running multiple monitors has serious frame rate and general performance issues that cant be fixed with Optimus Nvidia GPUs AT ALL. I suspect this will be solved with the Gen11 graphics, unfortunately its only available in U series at the moment and anyone looking for a real workhorse is after H series, otherwise the "Upgrade" will be lacking under extended load. Then there is AMD's 4 core mobile parts that offer 2 gen old equivalent CPU performance under a 35w TDP, im really not expecting magic from 15w parts, regardless of how many man hours went into the firmware. Anyway, all its good for the industry and there are great performance upgrades coming for all mobile PCs in all departments, some available now. I think you would be pretty crazy to go for the AMD APU over the Intel Icelake option in the 15” surface though. That said, MS don’t seem to be offering the Intel version yet… Cant wait for an Anandtech deep dive into the Surface Laptop 3 range performance and power use! PLEASE AT, make it a priority, not something that pops up in 6 months like sometimes happens!
Depends on what you want. Intel's CPUs are still great chips and are suitable for many people. Given these APU's are not probs Zen 2, they won't quite be as strong on the CPU side. That being said I am glad they are switching to Ryzen/Vega 11. Would love to pick one up. AMD have been miles ahead in iGPU performance for a long time. Even back in the Steam(ing pile of feces) roller chips they were way a head. Problem is you had to sacrifice CPU performance. Now AMD finally have some CPU horsepower to take some contracts away. Loving the competition. This will only make Intel fight harder in the GPU department. As a gamer I can see why a stronger iGPU is better, as someone who will do work I can also see why a stronger CPU is better.
It’s not really a full 20% different. The raw flops numbers may be. Translating it into real world performance can be as low as 4% differences in 3DMark TimeSpy and 18% in 3DMark 11 according to the results AMD provided which still remain to be verified by 3rd parties.
You are also sacrificing WiFi 6, and possibilities of implementing Thunderbolt 3 for the lineup. CPU is also supposedly better on Ice Lake chip. I failed to see why Intel is worse of a product.
Intel WiFi has been pretty bad ever since the 2200BG.
They're so focused on battery life that the performance and range is half what it should be.
I have tested them thoroughly, if you can get past the driver issues the receive sensitivity is amazing. The transmit power is insanely low, so it doesn't matter what kind of range you can get receive if you can't request data.
Swap a Realtek or Broadcom and you're far better off. Swap a Qualcomm/Atheros and you're completely outclassing the Intel WiFi. Even single chain Realtek has better range.
We've made a decent amount of money swapping out Intel cards for *anything* else and had very happy customers. We typically use Atheros, some of the best in the business.
It's downright sad that a company that big can't get WiFi right.
They did sell their 5G off, could be they just don't have the talent to handle RF properly.
I have to disagree with that. I had Broadcom and it was a piece of crap. Disconnecting all the time or even worse, turning off and requiring a restart to work again. Had the latest drivers for it. Speeds weren't very good either and the reception was not better compared to the current Intel 9260. I don't know how you reached your conclusion, but if you look on profile forums you will see intel is the way to go when Wifi on laptops is concerned.
25 years in IT, last 15 specializing in wireless, including long range (20+ mile) links, covering 2500 sq miles.
Intel's hardware is good. Intel's wireless drivers suck something awful. Broadcom is *not* my favorite but I have yet to actually own an Intel card that can even carry Broadcom's water, much less compete with Atheros.
I've made a hell of a lot of money throwing away Intel wireless cards over the last 15 years. The 2200BG was when everything started going down hill. The 2100 was excellent. Once they moved to OFDM and Intel got worried about power management their wireless went to pot.
Almost every wireless complaint we get, hotels, home WiFi, whatever, comes down to a crappy, single chain Intel wireless card trying to save power.
Swap in a $30 Atheros card and they more than double their range. Intel's WiFi barely puts out 10dBm when it says the max is 14dBm or 17dBm. Just poorly managed cards.
Although off topic conversation, comapring laptops from my friends' with intel wifi, mine qualcomm's is far better in reception/range and download speeds.
Ice Lake, has anyone gotten one yet? Sunny Cove looks damn nice, but so far it's vaporware.
I'd hardly call Zen+ "lacking" in the CPU department. Worst case it's on par with Skylake, which is virtually every chip Intel is selling today. You can't convince me that if you sat down to a Zen+ and a Skylake that you could tell the difference without benchmarks.
Err, my Zen+ (R7 2700X) is generally slower than my Skylake (i7 6700K) on a clock for clock basis in single threaded to 4 thread applications. That said, the difference isn't that big. It is certainly measurable and you can feel it going back and forth if you look for it. However, the difference isn't that noticeable. I estimate it is just a little faster than Haswell clock for clock. Definitely not lacking, but also not quite equal to Skylake in low thread applications.
Laptops aren't manufactured "clock for clock", though. If you can run higher frequency within the power and thermal limits, you can get more performance.
Yeah Intel lappies are great still. It is funny to see people think Intel is in a bad position. They are losing market share sure but people need to remember how far AMD were behind during the Bulldozer days. IPC was over 40% behind before AMD finally bought Ryzen out. Intel aren't going anywhere. Ryzen laptops would be great though. You can get that little bit extra iGPU performance and now that we don't have to sacrifice CPU performance to get it like we did a few years ago with Steamroller and Excavator based APUs. But anyone who thinks Intel aren't competitive are kidding themselves.
I don't think Intel is losing any market share on mobiles, at least not yet anyway.
Skylake is old, but dammit it is good.
People dog on Intel for 14nm, I'll be honest, I'll get them for screwing up 10nm all day long, but my Skylake i5 is running about 1.4W while I'm typing this. i5 6300HQ 45W model. Doesn't come close to 45W.
Even with 7nm AMD is going to have to be on their A game to compete with even Skylake as far as battery life goes. They've got better performance per watt, even on 12nm, but low usage power draw is killing them.
I haven't seen any reviews of the Ryzen 3000 mobile series tho. Plenty of announcements, but no real reviews. Not sure if they got the idle power fixed or not.
It won't matter if the Ryzen 4000 is 7nm or 7nm EUV if they can't get that idle power usage down. That kills battery life and puts AMD's battery life more like Ivy Bridge or possibly even Sandy Bridge.
To answer some of your questions: AMD is gaining laptop market share, so Intel is losing. Big part of the reason in 1H was shortage of Intel chips. Power raw was usually bad laptop design even for first generation (Raven Ridge), as proven by good battery life of Huawei MatebookD with 2500U. Several things were improved in Picasso: clock can go up/down much faster, which helps battery life and many benchmarks. Latencies improved, so CPU is more capable, as seen when coupled with a dGPU. And power balance was fixed, so iGPU gets higher share of the power in games at the expense of CPU (so no need to artificially limit the CPUto get the best result, as was in RR). Also, at this point unlocking TDP/STAPM works on both RRand Picasso, allowing to get much better performance from laptops artificially limited by silly manufacturers.
Again, about the power I believe there is a Lenovo 495 with Picasso, or similar (review on Notebookcheck), that offers better battery life than Intel version of the same laptop.
It looks like the 'casual gaming laptop' is going to be a thing, now, and these laptops look aimed squarely at that, and it plays to AMD's strengths. But, of course, we'll have to see shipping products and tests to know for sure. Right now it's all speculation.
This Ryzen platform is meeting and beating the Intel chips on every level especially low power....It doesn't state the alternative Intel chip but on the Microsoft website its the Intel Intel® Core™ i7-1065G7 Processor, which has a base clock of 1GHz, competing against the Ryzen's baseclock of 1.8GHz, its a no brainer Ryzen is faster, cooler and more efficient at lower clock speeds than Intel, even these last generation Zen+ chips.
Same scene as the server space, Intel chips are more expensive but provide under half the performance at twice the power...
I really like this bit: "AMD stated that 1.8 TF is a theoretical 32-bit peak value, whereas the 1.2-1.3 TF value being quoted is more of an actual sustained throughput of the machine."
It's good to see them quoting actual realistic numbers instead of theoretical maximums even if the numbers are lower. I like seeing that mind set -- it means that they are focusing on delivering the best product and not just putting the biggest numbers into the advertising material.
Its useful in understanding and comparing architecture that we already have a good understanding of though. From that we can work out exactly the core/clocks setup. Its going to be harder and harder moving forward to be able to quote performance metrics in a architecture & OS agnostic world. While we need to take these numbers with a grain of salt, its more helpful then the numbers used to be.
This seems like a fruitful partner ship but it comes at a time where you know fairly well what the second generation will entail: Zen 2 CPU cores and Navi GPU cores plus maybe USB4/TB3. Here I would fathom that the IO die might be more custom but I'd expect the CPU and GPU dies to be copies of what AMD offers in commodity PC chips.
I think they'll need to kill pcie 4.0 compatibility in laptops for power consumption reasons until they get a wildly more power efficiency option than what's available now, otherwise yeah, I'm definitely looking for that next generation and will just sit tight with my XPS laptop for now.
I think that PCIe 4.0 is certain for the silicon in Renoir. What isn't certain is how they will run it on mobile devices. This means that, for the desktop 4400g, the PCIe to the first slot will likely be capable of x8 v4, the I/O link will be capable of x4 v4, and the NVME link will be capable of x4 v4, but it's up to the board to expose and run it all at that config. Mobile can be implemented on a per-vendor basis, using the NVME at x2 v4 to save energy over x4 v3, and not using any of the other links at all. On higher end SKUs, mobile NAVI can use x8 v4 to have a no restrictions link to the CPU, as compared to Picasso.
There's not much point putting a more powerful GPU architecture into a memory bandwidth constrained APU. AMD can still take the best parts of Navi (like DCC algorithms) and integrate them into Vega.
So, if a laptop ships with DDR4-2400 RAM, are you likely to see any real benefit from Vega vs Navi?
That's right. However if Zen 2 APUs are paired with LPDDR5 Navi would clearly provide an advantage. JEDEC finalized the LPDDR5 standard in February 2019 while Samsung started mass production of LPDDR5 in July 2019. I have no idea if that's enough time for AMD to revise the memory controller of their Zen 2 APUs (assuming it supports only DDR4) or if the design of Zen 2 APUs is "fixed in stone". At the very least AMD should support LPDDR4X-4266 memory.
Intel in the past have used wider older generation ~DMI equiv links in their lowest TDP platforms, apparently was better on power to use 8x v2 then 4x v3. I cant see PCIe 4.0 on 15w platforms anytime soon. 35/45w platforms will likley get it, at least for NVME & chipset/DMI equiv links where its most useful. I also think AMD will wait for USB 4.0 to implement thunderbolt, i cant see them using parts with intels names all over them when they will be able to do their own versions very soon, just might take a year longer than we would hope for.
At least Intel are offering Thunderbolt now at next to nothing and with greatly less complicated implementations. Microsoft not adding it to the new Surface line was one of the worst moves ive seen from them in a long time, it cannot be forgiven IMO. Yes a good USBC implementation is most of what we needed, but for people who have thunderbolt docks and other parts they want to use on their new devices, its a kick in the face.
I doubt the diff between nvme @ x2 vs x4 would be anything but neglible . Would be nice if they released the laptop chips in desktop format for mini-pc's. I am sticking with a 10W n3450 till I can get something better, both gfx and CPU (for 24/7 NAS/HTPC) . I like the g200E but not sure its worth it ..
We saw Intel do that recently, using a PCIe x8 link at 2.0 speeds (though not 2.0 signaling) for their mobile chipsets, compared to PCIe 3.0 x4 link at 3.0 speeds. Apparently, there is enough power savings to justify doubling the used PHYs.
Intel's been doing that for years, it's not something new.
I expect PCIe4 will be available on high performance next gen laptops; they can compensate for a decent chunk of the higher power consumption by laying out the board so the SSD/GPU connectors are extremely close to the CPU limiting trace length (vs desktop boards pushing maximum length specs). For the GPU it'll probably be pointless; but it's not like gaming laptops have ever concerned themselves with power efficiency.
boring news and rehash of old tech. Who would even consider this at the price point when the next one in the works is going to be based on Zen2, Navi, and potentially even HBM2 vs similar parts already found in budget notebooks.
No, this is the latest. It is normal for MS to take ~half a year more than others, but also to fine-tune the CPU to work better than others. And if you are talking next gen APU- that will be Renoir , a 7nm monolithic 4c Zen2 with Vega, and it seems we will finally get LPDDR4X support for it, which could allow improved bandwidth. As for HBM memory- we will probably get it only a few generations down the line, when it gets done directly on top of the mobile APU chip, like AMD's patents indicate.
Better not buy anything 7nm (or even, god forbid, 14nm), since that is old tech. 5nm is right around the corner, but what is the point in even buying that when 3nm will be right around the corner once 5nm launches....
I guess it's nice to see what mobile Zen+ can do at its full potential. What would be an interesting comparison? Thinkpad T495? As for the next-gen Surface/AMD laptop, it would be nice to see Zen 2 + Vega 24, LPDDR4 4266
To let the editors and publishers of this article and several others know, when I see spelling errors for words that are common knowledge since about the 1st grade of education in the articles, I stop reading them. I would really like to read them, however, not taking care of simple spell checking and grammatical linguistics errors shows a lack of professionalism and lack of paying attention to details. Please, work on this to be taken more seriously. My username is an oxymoron if you want to come at me with that. Did not read the rest of the article because of these issues.
As I don't make excuses for our actions, that's on us. Copy editors in this industry died a decade ago - there's no money for them, let alone time - so we try to do what we can to not make mistakes in the first place. But if you see any errors, please don't hesitate to let us know.
Purely your loss. Sure, it's nicer to read articles without typos or other mistakes, but if you're coming to a tech website and not reading it because of English mistakes, you're missing up on what you came in for because you're uptight.
Fragmentary sentences; commas used for a clause which should've had a semicolon or a pair of dashes; 'grammatical linguistics errors' makes no sense. I'm giving this comment a failing grade, see me after class.
This sounds like a well-balanced approach and makes me curious what AMD + MS could do with a 13" - 13.5" device in the next generation. Apart from being curious what they achieved now :)
Curious if these "sort-of custom" APUs are fabbed on GloFo's recently announced 12 nm LP+ process. GloFo claims significant power/performance improvement over their 12 nm LPP. I'm wondering due to the 15 Wh TdP of even the 11 Vega core APU. Any words?
Played with a Surface Laptop 3 15” in the Microsoft store. It was the silver AMD model. What surprised me was how much lighter it was than the Surface Book 2 15” side by side. Seemed that they had the same keyboard feel and size. Didn’t get a chance to do anything than type some stuff into Word but overall it was a nice device.
Any idea when will the 7nm Zen2 mobile/APU will show up. Will that be the Ryzen 4*** mobile series? It looks like mobile is one fab gen behind desktop and servers. A 7nm mobile device with Intel still stuck at 14nm should be interesting - although it seems that next year we'll get 10nm parts.
"Firstly, AMD and Microsoft are not just doing a single generation of hardware. In our call we were told that both companies are looking at the next generation of product for this market." Several: "Firstly, AMD and Microsoft is not just doing a single generation of hardware. In our call, we were told that both companies are looking at the next generation of products for this market."
"A number of comments was made to the effect of Microsoft using one of AMD's 12nm Zen+ Ryzen Mobile processors, rather than something built with the higher performance Zen2 microarchitecture on 7nm, which would have afforded power gains." "Were" no "was": "A number of comments were made to the effect of Microsoft using one of AMD's 12nm Zen+ Ryzen Mobile processors, rather than something built with the higher performance Zen2 microarchitecture on 7nm, which would have afforded power gains."
"On top of that, Microsoft gets a great deal of care and attention with the design to ensure that the firmware, security, drivers, and software meet expectations." I'm uncertain what you mean. Try: "On top of that, Microsoft pays a great deal of care and attention to the design to ensure that the firmware, security, drivers, and software meet expectations."
I just hope Microsoft refreshes these laptops with zen 2 Architecture Mobile processor chips I also feel Microsoft should have launched them with zen 2 chips only
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SharpEars - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
So, conclusion:It's not a Zen 2 CPU/APU which means that I will chose another vendor for my laptop...
jordanclock - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
There are no Zen 2 APUs or mobile CPUs yet, so no other vendor will have anything different or better.Unless you mean going with Intel?
yeeeeman - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Intel is still very good in laptops. Don't see anything wrong with choosing them.danielfranklin - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Nothing wrong with Intel Icelake, particularly with their new graphics which closes the gap anyway.I really fail to see the purpose of this first gen "semi custom" design from MS/AMD.
There is no doubt this is ALL about future products, this is just a pipe cleaner for the relationship.
Im sure there are some great firmware customisations which cant be understated in their importance, but these Zen+ APUs are seriously lacking in the CPU dept.
Their 2nd gen, probably even with a higher level of customisation, 7nm Zen2 cores and even better graphics (and MUCH higher memory speeds) will be something special and given Intel's Icelake CPU performance seems to be somewhat lacking due to the clock speeds (its going to take Intel at least another year of optimisations to get their new chips to offer real next generation CPU performance), a highly optimised AMD 7nm APU is going to offer fantastic across the board performance, though the 35w parts will be best.
All that said, i feel that Intel's biggest problem has been their integrated graphics up until now.
Nothing at all to do with games, but any Intel laptop running multiple monitors has serious frame rate and general performance issues that cant be fixed with Optimus Nvidia GPUs AT ALL. I suspect this will be solved with the Gen11 graphics, unfortunately its only available in U series at the moment and anyone looking for a real workhorse is after H series, otherwise the "Upgrade" will be lacking under extended load.
Then there is AMD's 4 core mobile parts that offer 2 gen old equivalent CPU performance under a 35w TDP, im really not expecting magic from 15w parts, regardless of how many man hours went into the firmware.
Anyway, all its good for the industry and there are great performance upgrades coming for all mobile PCs in all departments, some available now. I think you would be pretty crazy to go for the AMD APU over the Intel Icelake option in the 15” surface though. That said, MS don’t seem to be offering the Intel version yet…
Cant wait for an Anandtech deep dive into the Surface Laptop 3 range performance and power use! PLEASE AT, make it a priority, not something that pops up in 6 months like sometimes happens!
WinterCharm - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
> their new graphics which closes the gap anyway.Their new graphics are still about 20% slower than Vega 11.
Closes the gap here does not mean they're equivalent... it's more like instead of being 80% behind they're now 20% behind.
Sure, if you want to pay more for something objectively worse, then go for it. It's very telling Microsoft picked AMD for the higher end Surface.
And if you want Zen 2 / 7nm cores, wait until next year for Surface Book 4.
CPT_Useless - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
Depends on what you want. Intel's CPUs are still great chips and are suitable for many people. Given these APU's are not probs Zen 2, they won't quite be as strong on the CPU side. That being said I am glad they are switching to Ryzen/Vega 11. Would love to pick one up. AMD have been miles ahead in iGPU performance for a long time. Even back in the Steam(ing pile of feces) roller chips they were way a head. Problem is you had to sacrifice CPU performance. Now AMD finally have some CPU horsepower to take some contracts away. Loving the competition. This will only make Intel fight harder in the GPU department. As a gamer I can see why a stronger iGPU is better, as someone who will do work I can also see why a stronger CPU is better.CPT_Useless - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
To add,Granted there is probably a bigger difference between the iGPUs on both chips than the difference in CPU performance on both chips.
Butterfish - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
It’s not really a full 20% different. The raw flops numbers may be. Translating it into real world performance can be as low as 4% differences in 3DMark TimeSpy and 18% in 3DMark 11 according to the results AMD provided which still remain to be verified by 3rd parties.You are also sacrificing WiFi 6, and possibilities of implementing Thunderbolt 3 for the lineup. CPU is also supposedly better on Ice Lake chip. I failed to see why Intel is worse of a product.
0ldman79 - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
Sacrifice Intel WiFi?Deal.
Intel WiFi has been pretty bad ever since the 2200BG.
They're so focused on battery life that the performance and range is half what it should be.
I have tested them thoroughly, if you can get past the driver issues the receive sensitivity is amazing. The transmit power is insanely low, so it doesn't matter what kind of range you can get receive if you can't request data.
Swap a Realtek or Broadcom and you're far better off. Swap a Qualcomm/Atheros and you're completely outclassing the Intel WiFi. Even single chain Realtek has better range.
We've made a decent amount of money swapping out Intel cards for *anything* else and had very happy customers. We typically use Atheros, some of the best in the business.
It's downright sad that a company that big can't get WiFi right.
They did sell their 5G off, could be they just don't have the talent to handle RF properly.
yeeeeman - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
I have to disagree with that. I had Broadcom and it was a piece of crap. Disconnecting all the time or even worse, turning off and requiring a restart to work again. Had the latest drivers for it. Speeds weren't very good either and the reception was not better compared to the current Intel 9260.I don't know how you reached your conclusion, but if you look on profile forums you will see intel is the way to go when Wifi on laptops is concerned.
0ldman79 - Friday, October 18, 2019 - link
25 years in IT, last 15 specializing in wireless, including long range (20+ mile) links, covering 2500 sq miles.Intel's hardware is good. Intel's wireless drivers suck something awful. Broadcom is *not* my favorite but I have yet to actually own an Intel card that can even carry Broadcom's water, much less compete with Atheros.
I've made a hell of a lot of money throwing away Intel wireless cards over the last 15 years. The 2200BG was when everything started going down hill. The 2100 was excellent. Once they moved to OFDM and Intel got worried about power management their wireless went to pot.
Almost every wireless complaint we get, hotels, home WiFi, whatever, comes down to a crappy, single chain Intel wireless card trying to save power.
Swap in a $30 Atheros card and they more than double their range. Intel's WiFi barely puts out 10dBm when it says the max is 14dBm or 17dBm. Just poorly managed cards.
Sharma_Ji - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
Although off topic conversation, comapring laptops from my friends' with intel wifi, mine qualcomm's is far better in reception/range and download speeds.Sharma_Ji - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
Comparing*5080 - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
Terrible security record on the Intel Chips and patches that slow down the CPU.0ldman79 - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
Zen 2 is about 10% faster, part of that is clock.Ice Lake, has anyone gotten one yet? Sunny Cove looks damn nice, but so far it's vaporware.
I'd hardly call Zen+ "lacking" in the CPU department. Worst case it's on par with Skylake, which is virtually every chip Intel is selling today. You can't convince me that if you sat down to a Zen+ and a Skylake that you could tell the difference without benchmarks.
For the integrated GPU...
https://youtu.be/KT3SkVXaVEM?t=419
BurntMyBacon - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
Err, my Zen+ (R7 2700X) is generally slower than my Skylake (i7 6700K) on a clock for clock basis in single threaded to 4 thread applications. That said, the difference isn't that big. It is certainly measurable and you can feel it going back and forth if you look for it. However, the difference isn't that noticeable. I estimate it is just a little faster than Haswell clock for clock. Definitely not lacking, but also not quite equal to Skylake in low thread applications.Hul8 - Friday, October 11, 2019 - link
Laptops aren't manufactured "clock for clock", though. If you can run higher frequency within the power and thermal limits, you can get more performance.CPT_Useless - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
Yeah Intel lappies are great still. It is funny to see people think Intel is in a bad position. They are losing market share sure but people need to remember how far AMD were behind during the Bulldozer days. IPC was over 40% behind before AMD finally bought Ryzen out. Intel aren't going anywhere.Ryzen laptops would be great though. You can get that little bit extra iGPU performance and now that we don't have to sacrifice CPU performance to get it like we did a few years ago with Steamroller and Excavator based APUs. But anyone who thinks Intel aren't competitive are kidding themselves.
CPT_Useless - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
And just to be clear I am agreeing with you about Intel laptops not trying to say you think they are crap.0ldman79 - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
I don't think Intel is losing any market share on mobiles, at least not yet anyway.Skylake is old, but dammit it is good.
People dog on Intel for 14nm, I'll be honest, I'll get them for screwing up 10nm all day long, but my Skylake i5 is running about 1.4W while I'm typing this. i5 6300HQ 45W model. Doesn't come close to 45W.
Even with 7nm AMD is going to have to be on their A game to compete with even Skylake as far as battery life goes. They've got better performance per watt, even on 12nm, but low usage power draw is killing them.
I haven't seen any reviews of the Ryzen 3000 mobile series tho. Plenty of announcements, but no real reviews. Not sure if they got the idle power fixed or not.
It won't matter if the Ryzen 4000 is 7nm or 7nm EUV if they can't get that idle power usage down. That kills battery life and puts AMD's battery life more like Ivy Bridge or possibly even Sandy Bridge.
neblogai - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
To answer some of your questions:AMD is gaining laptop market share, so Intel is losing. Big part of the reason in 1H was shortage of Intel chips.
Power raw was usually bad laptop design even for first generation (Raven Ridge), as proven by good battery life of Huawei MatebookD with 2500U.
Several things were improved in Picasso: clock can go up/down much faster, which helps battery life and many benchmarks. Latencies improved, so CPU is more capable, as seen when coupled with a dGPU. And power balance was fixed, so iGPU gets higher share of the power in games at the expense of CPU (so no need to artificially limit the CPUto get the best result, as was in RR).
Also, at this point unlocking TDP/STAPM works on both RRand Picasso, allowing to get much better performance from laptops artificially limited by silly manufacturers.
Again, about the power I believe there is a Lenovo 495 with Picasso, or similar (review on Notebookcheck), that offers better battery life than Intel version of the same laptop.
nico_mach - Friday, October 11, 2019 - link
It looks like the 'casual gaming laptop' is going to be a thing, now, and these laptops look aimed squarely at that, and it plays to AMD's strengths. But, of course, we'll have to see shipping products and tests to know for sure. Right now it's all speculation.jgraham11 - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
This Ryzen platform is meeting and beating the Intel chips on every level especially low power....It doesn't state the alternative Intel chip but on the Microsoft website its the Intel Intel® Core™ i7-1065G7 Processor, which has a base clock of 1GHz, competing against the Ryzen's baseclock of 1.8GHz, its a no brainer Ryzen is faster, cooler and more efficient at lower clock speeds than Intel, even these last generation Zen+ chips.Same scene as the server space, Intel chips are more expensive but provide under half the performance at twice the power...
extide - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
Which we already knew.cwolf78 - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
/facepalmJaxidian - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
No. That was a premise, not a conclusion.Cullinaire - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Sharp ears maybe, but not much else...Santoval - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Devices with Zen 2 APUs will be released in Q1 2020 at the earliest, maybe even Q2 2020.extide - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
I really like this bit:"AMD stated that 1.8 TF is a theoretical 32-bit peak value, whereas the 1.2-1.3 TF value being quoted is more of an actual sustained throughput of the machine."
It's good to see them quoting actual realistic numbers instead of theoretical maximums even if the numbers are lower. I like seeing that mind set -- it means that they are focusing on delivering the best product and not just putting the biggest numbers into the advertising material.
danielfranklin - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Its useful in understanding and comparing architecture that we already have a good understanding of though. From that we can work out exactly the core/clocks setup. Its going to be harder and harder moving forward to be able to quote performance metrics in a architecture & OS agnostic world. While we need to take these numbers with a grain of salt, its more helpful then the numbers used to be.Kevin G - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
This seems like a fruitful partner ship but it comes at a time where you know fairly well what the second generation will entail: Zen 2 CPU cores and Navi GPU cores plus maybe USB4/TB3. Here I would fathom that the IO die might be more custom but I'd expect the CPU and GPU dies to be copies of what AMD offers in commodity PC chips.Jaxidian - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
I think they'll need to kill pcie 4.0 compatibility in laptops for power consumption reasons until they get a wildly more power efficiency option than what's available now, otherwise yeah, I'm definitely looking for that next generation and will just sit tight with my XPS laptop for now.lightningz71 - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
I think that PCIe 4.0 is certain for the silicon in Renoir. What isn't certain is how they will run it on mobile devices. This means that, for the desktop 4400g, the PCIe to the first slot will likely be capable of x8 v4, the I/O link will be capable of x4 v4, and the NVME link will be capable of x4 v4, but it's up to the board to expose and run it all at that config. Mobile can be implemented on a per-vendor basis, using the NVME at x2 v4 to save energy over x4 v3, and not using any of the other links at all. On higher end SKUs, mobile NAVI can use x8 v4 to have a no restrictions link to the CPU, as compared to Picasso.scineram - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
Renoir is still Vega.Cooe - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
According to some ridiculously early rumors with no accompanying evidence... Don't spread hearsay FUD.ET - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Actually, it's according to Linux source code, which I think is pretty good evidence.Santoval - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
If that's really the case it will be extremely disappointing. A 2020 APU release still based on Vega iGPUs? Wtf?JasonMZW20 - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
There's not much point putting a more powerful GPU architecture into a memory bandwidth constrained APU. AMD can still take the best parts of Navi (like DCC algorithms) and integrate them into Vega.So, if a laptop ships with DDR4-2400 RAM, are you likely to see any real benefit from Vega vs Navi?
No.
Santoval - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
That's right. However if Zen 2 APUs are paired with LPDDR5 Navi would clearly provide an advantage. JEDEC finalized the LPDDR5 standard in February 2019 while Samsung started mass production of LPDDR5 in July 2019. I have no idea if that's enough time for AMD to revise the memory controller of their Zen 2 APUs (assuming it supports only DDR4) or if the design of Zen 2 APUs is "fixed in stone".At the very least AMD should support LPDDR4X-4266 memory.
scineram - Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - link
They do "support LPDDR4X-4266 memory".scineram - Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - link
Idiot.danielfranklin - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Intel in the past have used wider older generation ~DMI equiv links in their lowest TDP platforms, apparently was better on power to use 8x v2 then 4x v3.I cant see PCIe 4.0 on 15w platforms anytime soon.
35/45w platforms will likley get it, at least for NVME & chipset/DMI equiv links where its most useful.
I also think AMD will wait for USB 4.0 to implement thunderbolt, i cant see them using parts with intels names all over them when they will be able to do their own versions very soon, just might take a year longer than we would hope for.
At least Intel are offering Thunderbolt now at next to nothing and with greatly less complicated implementations. Microsoft not adding it to the new Surface line was one of the worst moves ive seen from them in a long time, it cannot be forgiven IMO.
Yes a good USBC implementation is most of what we needed, but for people who have thunderbolt docks and other parts they want to use on their new devices, its a kick in the face.
MASSAMKULABOX - Wednesday, October 23, 2019 - link
I doubt the diff between nvme @ x2 vs x4 would be anything but neglible . Would be nice if they released the laptop chips in desktop format for mini-pc's. I am sticking with a 10W n3450 till I can get something better, both gfx and CPU (for 24/7 NAS/HTPC) . I like the g200E but not sure its worth it ..jeremyshaw - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
We saw Intel do that recently, using a PCIe x8 link at 2.0 speeds (though not 2.0 signaling) for their mobile chipsets, compared to PCIe 3.0 x4 link at 3.0 speeds. Apparently, there is enough power savings to justify doubling the used PHYs.DanNeely - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
Intel's been doing that for years, it's not something new.I expect PCIe4 will be available on high performance next gen laptops; they can compensate for a decent chunk of the higher power consumption by laying out the board so the SSD/GPU connectors are extremely close to the CPU limiting trace length (vs desktop boards pushing maximum length specs). For the GPU it'll probably be pointless; but it's not like gaming laptops have ever concerned themselves with power efficiency.
scineram - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
There is no Zen 2 + Navi.scineram - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
Come on! We have known for months that Renoir is Vega.gglaw - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
boring news and rehash of old tech. Who would even consider this at the price point when the next one in the works is going to be based on Zen2, Navi, and potentially even HBM2 vs similar parts already found in budget notebooks.neblogai - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
No, this is the latest. It is normal for MS to take ~half a year more than others, but also to fine-tune the CPU to work better than others.And if you are talking next gen APU- that will be Renoir , a 7nm monolithic 4c Zen2 with Vega, and it seems we will finally get LPDDR4X support for it, which could allow improved bandwidth. As for HBM memory- we will probably get it only a few generations down the line, when it gets done directly on top of the mobile APU chip, like AMD's patents indicate.
Death666Angel - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Better not buy anything 7nm (or even, god forbid, 14nm), since that is old tech. 5nm is right around the corner, but what is the point in even buying that when 3nm will be right around the corner once 5nm launches....NICOXIS - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
I guess it's nice to see what mobile Zen+ can do at its full potential. What would be an interesting comparison? Thinkpad T495?As for the next-gen Surface/AMD laptop, it would be nice to see Zen 2 + Vega 24, LPDDR4 4266
lejeczek - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
Similar chips are in HP Elitebook 745 g6Know Theyself - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
To let the editors and publishers of this article and several others know, when I see spelling errors for words that are common knowledge since about the 1st grade of education in the articles, I stop reading them. I would really like to read them, however, not taking care of simple spell checking and grammatical linguistics errors shows a lack of professionalism and lack of paying attention to details. Please, work on this to be taken more seriously. My username is an oxymoron if you want to come at me with that. Did not read the rest of the article because of these issues.webdoctors - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
Its a free website and English might not be their first language...Ryan Smith - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
The feedback is appreciated.As I don't make excuses for our actions, that's on us. Copy editors in this industry died a decade ago - there's no money for them, let alone time - so we try to do what we can to not make mistakes in the first place. But if you see any errors, please don't hesitate to let us know.
ET - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Purely your loss. Sure, it's nicer to read articles without typos or other mistakes, but if you're coming to a tech website and not reading it because of English mistakes, you're missing up on what you came in for because you're uptight.ArcadeEngineer - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Fragmentary sentences; commas used for a clause which should've had a semicolon or a pair of dashes; 'grammatical linguistics errors' makes no sense. I'm giving this comment a failing grade, see me after class.Korguz - Tuesday, October 15, 2019 - link
the resident English teachers have spoken !!!!if thats your view know theyself and arcade engineer.. good for you..
Tams80 - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
It has a rather lame selection of ports for a 15" touch. And that's on Microsoft.Hul8 - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Maybe they're trying to push dongles. Like have a couple of SKUs, that are both compatible *and* useful on any Surface device?GreenReaper - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
And let's not forget the rather painfully-priced Surface Dock:https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/surface-dock/8qr...
ksec - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Zen 2 + Navi, I hope Apple look into it as well for their MacBook. But right now fixing the keyboard and trackpad issues is way more important.scineram - Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - link
No.MrSpadge - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
This sounds like a well-balanced approach and makes me curious what AMD + MS could do with a 13" - 13.5" device in the next generation. Apart from being curious what they achieved now :)eastcoast_pete - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Curious if these "sort-of custom" APUs are fabbed on GloFo's recently announced 12 nm LP+ process. GloFo claims significant power/performance improvement over their 12 nm LPP. I'm wondering due to the 15 Wh TdP of even the 11 Vega core APU. Any words?scineram - Tuesday, October 22, 2019 - link
No.Lord 666 - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
Played with a Surface Laptop 3 15” in the Microsoft store. It was the silver AMD model. What surprised me was how much lighter it was than the Surface Book 2 15” side by side. Seemed that they had the same keyboard feel and size. Didn’t get a chance to do anything than type some stuff into Word but overall it was a nice device.yankeeDDL - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
Any idea when will the 7nm Zen2 mobile/APU will show up.Will that be the Ryzen 4*** mobile series? It looks like mobile is one fab gen behind desktop and servers.
A 7nm mobile device with Intel still stuck at 14nm should be interesting - although it seems that next year we'll get 10nm parts.
0iron - Sunday, October 6, 2019 - link
"Unfortunately the call recording failed..."This is when Xiaomi phone with MIUI come in handy. It has built-in call recording app, you can set to auto-record.
neblogai - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
Or just ask the Chinese government for the transcript /jdomboy - Monday, October 7, 2019 - link
I'd be very interested in seeing a similar article discussing what's custom about the Qualcomm chip (SQ1) in the Surface Pro X...ballsystemlord - Tuesday, October 8, 2019 - link
Spelling and grammar errors:"Firstly, AMD and Microsoft are not just doing a single generation of hardware. In our call we were told that both companies are looking at the next generation of product for this market."
Several:
"Firstly, AMD and Microsoft is not just doing a single generation of hardware. In our call, we were told that both companies are looking at the next generation of products for this market."
"A number of comments was made to the effect of Microsoft using one of AMD's 12nm Zen+ Ryzen Mobile processors, rather than something built with the higher performance Zen2 microarchitecture on 7nm, which would have afforded power gains."
"Were" no "was":
"A number of comments were made to the effect of Microsoft using one of AMD's 12nm Zen+ Ryzen Mobile processors, rather than something built with the higher performance Zen2 microarchitecture on 7nm, which would have afforded power gains."
"On top of that, Microsoft gets a great deal of care and attention with the design to ensure that the firmware, security, drivers, and software meet expectations."
I'm uncertain what you mean. Try:
"On top of that, Microsoft pays a great deal of care and attention to the design to ensure that the firmware, security, drivers, and software meet expectations."
Kishoreshack - Tuesday, November 12, 2019 - link
I just hope Microsoft refreshes these laptops with zen 2 Architecture Mobile processor chipsI also feel Microsoft should have launched them with zen 2 chips only