"Interesting" indeed. If the table is correct, Intel gets 8/16GB Dual-Channel LPDDR4X-3733 while AMD gets 8/16/32GB Dual-Channel DDR4-2400. Intel gets up to 1TB PCIe NVMe while AMD tops out at 512GB.
So you can choose a little bit of really fast RAM with more storage or lots of slow RAM and less storage?
LPDDR4X runs on a 32-bit bus, while DDR4-2400 runs on a 64-bit bus. a equivalent speed LPDDR4X would require it to be 4800mhz, the 3733 is basically DDR4-1866, which is quite slow. The LPDDR4X is actually slower in terms of bandwidth, but the latency are less, which compounds the additional latency that Zen has.
Sad that MS made the AMD models the same price (?) as the Intel models, used to see a Ryzen 7 3700U (MS does have a slightly better 3700U tho" at the same price as a i5-8265U, not the i7-1065G7
Intels memory controllers have been so good lately that the difference between LPDDR4X and DDR4 will likely be the difference between single channel and dual channel: virtually nothing.
You're wrong. In dual-channel, this 3733 memory is generating 57.6 Gbps of bandwidth for IceLake's iGPU. The AMD system has only 38.4 Gbps available. Plus, both are running at 128bits compatible with the DDR4 in dual-channel. (64bit x 2)
Let me quote JEDEC, which is the person who makes the memory standards: "LPDDR4 will eventually operate at an I/O rate of 4266 MT/s, twice that of LPDDR3. To achieve this performance, the committee completely redesigned the architecture, going from a one-channel die with 16 bits per channel to a two-channel die with 16 bits per channel, for a total of 32 bits." Last time I checked, 2x2x16 = 64, not 128. Please let me know if that has changed.
LPDDR4X works like GDDR5 when it comes to bus width the chip it connected to will decide bus width and the desired bus width is reached by using a set amount of LPDDR4X chips in this case the width is 128 so 4 32bit LPDDR4X chips are needed.
I think AMD royally screwed up here... I understand the regular parts are only rated for 2400MHz, but this is a semi-custom part in a top end product. If they were going to beef up the GPU anyway, then they absolutely should have verified the APU for higher RAM speed as well...like 2933MHz at the very least. With the overall lower specs this feels like a comparatively budget laptop. The pricing should not have been any higher than the 13" models (except the 32GB/1TB vs the 16GB/1TB for maybe $150 more). Microsoft also screwed up bad with a 128GB option, everything should have been moved down one price point with 256GB being the minimum option at $999. I also would've loved to have seen a 2TB option, but with the massive gouging between storage tiers ($800 more for a 1TB vs 256GB in the 16GB RAM class) it'd probably be cheaper to buy the factory and have them custom manufacture you a unit.
Very interesting, looking forward to reviews here. Not that another CU is likely to make much of a difference in GPU performance, but it's nice to have a fully enabled chip. Also interesting is that AnandTech manages to make such a giant error as saying there's a 15" Intel version - there isn't. Source: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-laptop-3...
Kind of disappointed that they didn’t offer a more high end configuration of the 15” version with a higher resolution display at least. Why are they insisting on saving the best stuff for their surface book and likes? I love that Microsoft gets the 3:2 aspect ratio and what it does for productivity, but I don’t want a convertible. If they’d offered this laptop with a 3000x2000 display or better I would have been sold!
Display and input are by far the most important criteria for me in a laptop nowadays. It’s not like the display is bad in this laptop, but it’s noticeably lower res than its competitors.
I’m not knocking on your preferences, and I’m sure there are plenty of people who will be completely happy with the included display. I just they wish they offered a slightly higher resolution one for people like my that love that extra sharpness in text which running 200% scaling on a higher DPI display gives you. Especially since Microsoft offers such a display in their convertibles.
It's hardly lacking at close to the old 2560x1600 @ 15". Give me a quality panel with high contrast and colours over an even higher resolution I can't see. Laptops graphics systems struggle enough even on the desktop once you plug 1/2 decent monitors in to them...
AMD hasn't said anything. But if Renoir was coming this year, it would already be out. You have to announce stuff by October to make the holiday shopping season.
1) Only "one leaked slide" this close to the supposed release would indicate it's fabricated.
2) If AMD was going to release Zen 2 -based APUs this year, they would not have bothered to put engineering into the Zen+ -based 3000 series APUs; only months after release, they'd be going from the "inexpensive" category into the "bargain bin" category. Never mind their partners would be mighty pissed for the same reason.
These numbers are garbage Mr. Intel Fanboy. Here in reality, the IPC difference is around 20%, and after Ryzen's clock advantage is taken into consideration (like 4GHz vs 3.7GHz), the per thread perfomance difference will only be around ≈10% or so. And you can also be sure that the Intel 15" models are going to cost significantly more than the AMD ones. Delusional fanboy is delusional.
pointing to IPC as the defining difference completely ignores that Intel CPU's TDP-up to achieve their full "IPC" advantage, which destroys battery, noise and thermal performance under the kinds of loads you'd actually notice the difference.
Then there is the elephant in the room: Intel graphics still suck watt for watt compared to AMD IGP's.
But yes, under many office tasks the ICL will surpass the older Zen architecture. It's nice to have options where one could purchase the laptop that is most appropriate for their task, and Microsoft should be commended for doing so.
Well, it has a direct affect in the aggregate. If one clock speed is 50% faster, but the IPC is 66% of another, they have the same number of instructions executed over time, and would probably appear to be similar in performance over time.
*Only* Microsoft could refuse to add TB3 support on a laptop that already has 1) lots of spare PCIe lanes, 2) an integrated TB3 controller that's now wasted silicon, and 3) a high-end laptop starting at $1,000.
Imagine if Windows was developed like this: "Here's Windows 10. We're disabling all CPU cores over the standard 4 cores. You can use our virtual, proprietary CPU accelerator: it's just the same."
TB is an Intel property. MS has just released AMD and Qualcomm Surfii. Having TB on one and not on the other would break consistency. Furthermore no one cares about TB in the real world.
An AMD notebook cannot yet have properly integrated TB such as Intel. Even intel only now is starting to integrate TB within its chipset. Are we going to penalize AMD as a viable market option due to the lack of an Intel proprietary tech?
TB is still a niche within a niche. Outside of Apple users that were forced to adopt the dongle life, in the windows world TB is still the port no one uses. And I bet MS has windows telemetry to prove it. USB-C is great, TB is a specialist option.
"Are we going to penalize AMD as a viable market option due to the lack of an Intel proprietary tech?" I don't see why not. Or are you banning x64 on Intel devices just because the ARM devices can't emulate x64?
Nice trolling but thunderbolt is an open standard. The reason it's not on these laptops is same reason all surfii before this only had a single fucking USB-A port. stupidity.
Thunderbolt is an "open" standard, not an open standard. Implementation requires pricey certification from Intel still, among many other hoops that must be jumped through. Stop talking out of your ass please.
Nothing Cooe said precludes a company like Asrock from jumping through said hoops and implementing TB on an AMD board. It's not 'open' in the sense that anyone is free to use it, no royalties, no certifications. There are requirements to make sure your device works with other Thunderbolt devices, but other than having your device certified, it is 'open' for anyone who wants to use it.
I don't actually see how TB can't be added back to the USB-C connection. It's like the firmware is nerfed or something. The USB-C Gen 2 controller in ICL is a native TB interface. It's all on the same circuit and there's nothing they could have electronically done to remove it.
thunderbolt support (even tho it exists in chipset) still requires a companion chip from intel. without that on the board, built in thunderbolt would be something equivalent to an Ethernet MAC being present on-chip but lacking PHY (the actual thing that sends/receives data).
Actually many do care about TB3 in the real world. You obviously don't work with a lot of external storage, networking, or external gpu's, but the rest of the editing world does.
That's why I said TB is a specialist option. Until TB is as agnostic to Intel's competitors as USB, it will be a niche. There are plenty of OEMs to choose if you specifically need TB. MS grew from aspirations of 1 bn revenues per year to almost 6 bn as of the last financial quarter. That without TB.
Once upon a time they actually sort of did that, it was one of the distinguishing characteristics between the Workstation and Server versions of Windows. And while not necessarily deliberate, Windows 10 did start out with problems when you threw umpteen cores at it like a Threadripper.
I just found this page on AMD's site that has the frequencies for the chips. The 3580U has a base of 2.1 and max boost of 3.7. The 3780U has a base of 2.3 and max boost of 4.0
What's the reason for two SF Laptop 3 15's? Ice-Lake shortage? Seems weird.
Regarding the Ryzen power consumption: the latest Ryzen-laptop tests on notebookcheck have shown very promising results. The Lenovo E495 and T495s consume about the same or even less than the E490 and T490s with Intel CPUs and same battery (simulating surfing over WiFi).
I have a Surface 2 laptop. I like it, no major complaints.
But the SSD/CPU upgrade prices Microsoft charges are absolutely ridiculous! $200 to upgrade from 128GB to 256GB! And since laptops are basically not upgrade-able (or even repaired for the most part) Microsoft knows some people will pay the outrageous upgrade prices. They should also realize most will not. I was for sure thinking the $999 "base" Surface 3 laptop would include a 256GB SSD... but I was wrong.
Completely agree. the upgrade prices are completely unreasonable as are the base configurations.
128 GB Core i5 8GB RAM: $999 ('Maybe' 128gb is reasonable for a minimum tablet configuration but it's not reasonable for a laptop, get rid of it.) 256 GB Intel Core i5 with 8GB of RAM: $1299 (should be the base option, at either 999 or 1099) 256 GB Intel Core i7 with 8GB of RAM: $1599 (pointless - get rid of this) 512 GB Intel Core i7 with 16GB of RAM: $2199 (should be 1299-1599) 1 TB Intel Core i7 with 16GB of RAM: $2699 (should be 1999 max)
I bought the 128 Gb version for $800 on black friday last year. Which is to say, I agree somewhat with you. For $1000, it's unreasonable. For $800, I'll make do with the low storage since it has incredible build, keyboard, screen, and battery. (Think about it, even when people are buying the $2500 version, they are getting the same thing in those areas).
Everyone says not enough - maybe not for YOUR use case, but for most people, actually it IS plenty. I am using less than 128GB of my 256GB C drive in my laptop, with a full Windows 10, Full Office install (including Access and Visio), SQL server, Visual Studio with VB and VC, applications for electronic design (schematic capture and PCB layout), CAD software for model railroads, cached data for both work and personal OneDrive accounts, and more. About 2GB is my Outlook local cache. If I took all personal stuff off this laptop and used it JUST for work - I'd be using MAYBE half of a 128GB SSD. In the end - no, 128GB is not enough for me, either. BUT - if this was for an office worker, who needs to work on Word documents, Excel spreadsheets, and email, plus maybe have a couple of alternative browsers installed (forgot those, I have Chrome and Opera installed too), 128GB is actually plenty, as is 8GB RAM. My main desktop at home has 16GB, but I have one at my workbench that I use to run electronic tools, write code, and do circuit design, and I bult that with an I3, and no discrete GPU and it handles 3D board views in the EDA program just fine. a measley 2 core/4 thread, and 8GB. A 7th gen I3 to boot, it's a couple years old now. No, it's not 'sexy', higher end hardware would make the system a lot 'cooler' but the thing is, it is properly sized to the task, not built as the ultimate in hardware that I could put together. OMG, it even uses the stock Intel cooler, because it's in no way overclocked or stressed. No, it does not play games, but that's what the 4c/8t other machine with 16GB and a discrete graphics card is for. Sometimes you have to take of the enthusiast hat and put on the realist hat. Not everyone, actually the majority, do not need double digit core counts and multiple TB of storage, or turbos that go to 5GHz. Those things are appealing - but simply not needed by most.
Microsoft has also confirmed that the M.2 SSD is replaceable.
Although they said they don't want people to do it, isn't going to stop anyone. I would get the lowest ssd choice and use it for a backup drive and put in a 2TB.
We'll have to see how easy it is change it. Is it a few regular screws? or more exotic torx screws? Or are we using a heatgun, suction cups and guitar picks....
The former is certainly going to cost significantly more, and be VASTLY more supply limited (Ice Lake shortages are VERY real), so it's really not that bizarre at all.
Even if they had the same number of nm, that would be meaningless, since numbers from different foundry companies aren't comparable.
Everyone uses the process node that makes sense to them. Just concentrate on the performance, power and cost. (Then maybe *explain* some of the results by the whole of the process node - not just the number before the nm.)
"Even if they had the same number of nm, that would be meaningless, since numbers from different foundry companies aren't comparable." ...Yeah, and TSMC's 10nm isn't even as dense as Intel's 10nm, maybe 14 with a few +'s.
Thanks for asking. As far as things go, Microsoft's own press material distinctly lists multiple Intel configurations for the 15-inch laptop. Their website has been kind of a mess today, so I suspect they're still trying to sort that out.
Overpriced and with unnecessary penny pinching in the design. At this price a full HD camera (if not 4k) should be included. More USB ports should also have been provided. If this follows previous surface laptops design then it will be very difficult or impossible to repair (even to replace the battery). This seems to be a posers laptop
Feels weird to almost defend Microsoft here, but it's really up to AMD to get a move on and get mobile Ryzen 2+ in 7 nm up and running already. Yes, MS is hedging against Intel's shortages here, but the Ryzen laptops would be a much more competitive (superior) alternative if both CPU and GPU would be mobile versions of AMD's newest and hottest offerings. As it is, not bad, but won't put Intel out to pasture in Surface land.
I think this is due to cost. They *are* inexpensive, after all.
Not concentrating huge manpower to the design (to get them out the door within a couple of months of the CPUs with the same CPU tech), then manufacturing on the previous process node, may allow considerable savings. This is especially true if they continue to manufacture monolithic dies, in which case yields with equally mature process node would be inferior to the more splintered CPUs, due to the larger size.
Also, AMD has plans to have APUs in laptops, and the design and engineering of those requires APU samples to be ready well in advance. This would require the APUs to be mostly ready *before* the CPUs, even if you were to release them slightly later.
I know this is the Surface laptop preview, but no mention of the Pro X ? As exciting as having a Surface laptop finally available with Ryzen is (!), the Pro X might just be the watershed moment for Windows on ARM. Time for Intel to get some real competition in the ultra-low power space. Looking forward to your review of that thing; maybe it'll surprise us, and shake Intel up.
My thoughts exactly. This Anandtech reader is most interested in the Surface Pro X, not the laptop. I'm hoping they're at least review it since they completely ignored it on launch day.
Ah, AMD smart move! This is not a custom APU at all, just a better binned old one with an extra CU enabled. This move is required to get a bit of oxygen to the custom & IP voice in Q4 results as it is probably going to punge to the minimum ever. As long as Ryzen good incomes manage to cover GPU black holes, there's room to make other milking financial maneuvers.
No Thunderbolt = my standard handout at work remains the X1 Carbon. We use thunderbolt docks and dual 27" screens - USB C doesn't work where those screens are 4K. Shame as i'd like to have got myself one to trial to see if they've (finally) sorted the firmware sleep issues I had on an SP4.
I like how the spec sheet is done, previously some cells with the exact same contents weren't merged, and were tiresome to look at having to read the same content more than once.
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mooninite - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
The Ryzen models are interesting. I'll need to find the perfect penguin sticker to cover that Windows logo on the lid.nathanddrews - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
"Interesting" indeed. If the table is correct, Intel gets 8/16GB Dual-Channel LPDDR4X-3733 while AMD gets 8/16/32GB Dual-Channel DDR4-2400. Intel gets up to 1TB PCIe NVMe while AMD tops out at 512GB.So you can choose a little bit of really fast RAM with more storage or lots of slow RAM and less storage?
firewrath9 - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
LPDDR4X runs on a 32-bit bus, while DDR4-2400 runs on a 64-bit bus.a equivalent speed LPDDR4X would require it to be 4800mhz, the 3733 is basically DDR4-1866, which is quite slow.
The LPDDR4X is actually slower in terms of bandwidth, but the latency are less, which compounds the additional latency that Zen has.
Sad that MS made the AMD models the same price (?) as the Intel models, used to see a Ryzen 7 3700U (MS does have a slightly better 3700U tho" at the same price as a i5-8265U, not the i7-1065G7
Samus - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Intels memory controllers have been so good lately that the difference between LPDDR4X and DDR4 will likely be the difference between single channel and dual channel: virtually nothing.Drake H. - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
You're wrong. In dual-channel, this 3733 memory is generating 57.6 Gbps of bandwidth for IceLake's iGPU. The AMD system has only 38.4 Gbps available. Plus, both are running at 128bits compatible with the DDR4 in dual-channel. (64bit x 2)Ice Lake: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/...
Vega: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/...
firewrath9 - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
Let me quote JEDEC, which is the person who makes the memory standards:"LPDDR4 will eventually operate at an I/O rate of 4266 MT/s, twice that of LPDDR3. To achieve this performance, the committee completely redesigned the architecture, going from a one-channel die with 16 bits per channel to a two-channel die with 16 bits per channel, for a total of 32 bits."
Last time I checked, 2x2x16 = 64, not 128. Please let me know if that has changed.
caqde - Saturday, October 5, 2019 - link
LPDDR4X works like GDDR5 when it comes to bus width the chip it connected to will decide bus width and the desired bus width is reached by using a set amount of LPDDR4X chips in this case the width is 128 so 4 32bit LPDDR4X chips are needed.EliteRetard - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
I think AMD royally screwed up here... I understand the regular parts are only rated for 2400MHz, but this is a semi-custom part in a top end product. If they were going to beef up the GPU anyway, then they absolutely should have verified the APU for higher RAM speed as well...like 2933MHz at the very least. With the overall lower specs this feels like a comparatively budget laptop. The pricing should not have been any higher than the 13" models (except the 32GB/1TB vs the 16GB/1TB for maybe $150 more). Microsoft also screwed up bad with a 128GB option, everything should have been moved down one price point with 256GB being the minimum option at $999. I also would've loved to have seen a 2TB option, but with the massive gouging between storage tiers ($800 more for a 1TB vs 256GB in the 16GB RAM class) it'd probably be cheaper to buy the factory and have them custom manufacture you a unit.Valantar - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Very interesting, looking forward to reviews here. Not that another CU is likely to make much of a difference in GPU performance, but it's nice to have a fully enabled chip. Also interesting is that AnandTech manages to make such a giant error as saying there's a 15" Intel version - there isn't. Source: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-laptop-3...MarcusMo - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Kind of disappointed that they didn’t offer a more high end configuration of the 15” version with a higher resolution display at least. Why are they insisting on saving the best stuff for their surface book and likes?I love that Microsoft gets the 3:2 aspect ratio and what it does for productivity, but I don’t want a convertible. If they’d offered this laptop with a 3000x2000 display or better I would have been sold!
MrSpadge - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Really, a 20% difference in DPI makes or brakes a laptop for you, even when starting with a fairly high-DPI screen? I definitely disagree.MarcusMo - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Display and input are by far the most important criteria for me in a laptop nowadays. It’s not like the display is bad in this laptop, but it’s noticeably lower res than its competitors.I’m not knocking on your preferences, and I’m sure there are plenty of people who will be completely happy with the included display. I just they wish they offered a slightly higher resolution one for people like my that love that extra sharpness in text which running 200% scaling on a higher DPI display gives you. Especially since Microsoft offers such a display in their convertibles.
danielfranklin - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
It's hardly lacking at close to the old 2560x1600 @ 15".Give me a quality panel with high contrast and colours over an even higher resolution I can't see.
Laptops graphics systems struggle enough even on the desktop once you plug 1/2 decent monitors in to them...
lilkwarrior - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
It’s not an either-or; many OLED screens offer high res & far better color production & contrastKishoreshack - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Why no ryzen zen 2 Architecture?Ryan Smith - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
That will be Renoir, which won't be until next year. It's too early for a Zen 2 APU.brakdoo - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
AMD never officially said Renoir is 2020, did they? Under NDA maybe?Raven Ridge was announced late 2017...
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
AMD hasn't said anything. But if Renoir was coming this year, it would already be out. You have to announce stuff by October to make the holiday shopping season.Death666Angel - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Well, there is that leaked slide that states exactly that and it looks pretty convincing. :)Hul8 - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Don't really know whether joking, but I'll bite.1) Only "one leaked slide" this close to the supposed release would indicate it's fabricated.
2) If AMD was going to release Zen 2 -based APUs this year, they would not have bothered to put engineering into the Zen+ -based 3000 series APUs; only months after release, they'd be going from the "inexpensive" category into the "bargain bin" category. Never mind their partners would be mighty pissed for the same reason.
Great_Scott - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
These Surface Laptops should make wonderful testing mules to see precise differences between CPUs as the specifications are near-identical otherwise.It's a shame the memory type is different, and Microsoft wasn't able to go with Zen2 cores.
Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
IPC difference between zen+ and icl are 1.3-1.4x plus frequencies, so they aren't even closeCooe - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
These numbers are garbage Mr. Intel Fanboy. Here in reality, the IPC difference is around 20%, and after Ryzen's clock advantage is taken into consideration (like 4GHz vs 3.7GHz), the per thread perfomance difference will only be around ≈10% or so. And you can also be sure that the Intel 15" models are going to cost significantly more than the AMD ones. Delusional fanboy is delusional.Phynaz - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
The preceding post was made by the idiot AMD fanboy of the day.Samus - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
pointing to IPC as the defining difference completely ignores that Intel CPU's TDP-up to achieve their full "IPC" advantage, which destroys battery, noise and thermal performance under the kinds of loads you'd actually notice the difference.Then there is the elephant in the room: Intel graphics still suck watt for watt compared to AMD IGP's.
But yes, under many office tasks the ICL will surpass the older Zen architecture. It's nice to have options where one could purchase the laptop that is most appropriate for their task, and Microsoft should be commended for doing so.
edzieba - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
TDP-up increases clock speed, but has no effect on IPC (being Instructions Per Clock).erple2 - Wednesday, October 16, 2019 - link
Well, it has a direct affect in the aggregate. If one clock speed is 50% faster, but the IPC is 66% of another, they have the same number of instructions executed over time, and would probably appear to be similar in performance over time.ikjadoon - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
*Only* Microsoft could refuse to add TB3 support on a laptop that already has 1) lots of spare PCIe lanes, 2) an integrated TB3 controller that's now wasted silicon, and 3) a high-end laptop starting at $1,000.Imagine if Windows was developed like this: "Here's Windows 10. We're disabling all CPU cores over the standard 4 cores. You can use our virtual, proprietary CPU accelerator: it's just the same."
ikjadoon - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
and, 4) already has a bloody type-C connector.danielfranklin - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
It's utterly discussing actually. They could have just done it, pretended it wasn't there for marketing and left it to people who want to use it.id4andrei - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
TB is an Intel property. MS has just released AMD and Qualcomm Surfii. Having TB on one and not on the other would break consistency. Furthermore no one cares about TB in the real world.diehardmacfan - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Break what consistency?Lots of people care about TB in the real world.
id4andrei - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
An AMD notebook cannot yet have properly integrated TB such as Intel. Even intel only now is starting to integrate TB within its chipset. Are we going to penalize AMD as a viable market option due to the lack of an Intel proprietary tech?TB is still a niche within a niche. Outside of Apple users that were forced to adopt the dongle life, in the windows world TB is still the port no one uses. And I bet MS has windows telemetry to prove it. USB-C is great, TB is a specialist option.
5080 - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
USB 4.0 will be TB4. So within a year you'll have both standards in one port anyway. I would wait if TB is important to you.s.yu - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
"Are we going to penalize AMD as a viable market option due to the lack of an Intel proprietary tech?"I don't see why not. Or are you banning x64 on Intel devices just because the ARM devices can't emulate x64?
timecop1818 - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Nice trolling but thunderbolt is an open standard. The reason it's not on these laptops is same reason all surfii before this only had a single fucking USB-A port. stupidity.Cooe - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Thunderbolt is an "open" standard, not an open standard. Implementation requires pricey certification from Intel still, among many other hoops that must be jumped through. Stop talking out of your ass please.Karmena - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
And yet, Asrock is selling AM4 (for Ryzen CPUs) mobos with thunderbolt3 built in them.rrinker - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Nothing Cooe said precludes a company like Asrock from jumping through said hoops and implementing TB on an AMD board. It's not 'open' in the sense that anyone is free to use it, no royalties, no certifications. There are requirements to make sure your device works with other Thunderbolt devices, but other than having your device certified, it is 'open' for anyone who wants to use it.Samus - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
I don't actually see how TB can't be added back to the USB-C connection. It's like the firmware is nerfed or something. The USB-C Gen 2 controller in ICL is a native TB interface. It's all on the same circuit and there's nothing they could have electronically done to remove it.timecop1818 - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
thunderbolt support (even tho it exists in chipset) still requires a companion chip from intel. without that on the board, built in thunderbolt would be something equivalent to an Ethernet MAC being present on-chip but lacking PHY (the actual thing that sends/receives data).s.yu - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Is this "surfii" a MS specific thing? Generally it's just surfaces...s.yu - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
lol, I actually looked it up thinking I might have been mistaken but the plural of surface is simply surfaces.Dug - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Actually many do care about TB3 in the real world. You obviously don't work with a lot of external storage, networking, or external gpu's, but the rest of the editing world does.Dug - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Forgot to mention all high end audio interfaces.id4andrei - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
That's why I said TB is a specialist option. Until TB is as agnostic to Intel's competitors as USB, it will be a niche. There are plenty of OEMs to choose if you specifically need TB. MS grew from aspirations of 1 bn revenues per year to almost 6 bn as of the last financial quarter. That without TB.rrinker - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Once upon a time they actually sort of did that, it was one of the distinguishing characteristics between the Workstation and Server versions of Windows. And while not necessarily deliberate, Windows 10 did start out with problems when you threw umpteen cores at it like a Threadripper.Lezmaka - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
I just found this page on AMD's site that has the frequencies for the chips. The 3580U has a base of 2.1 and max boost of 3.7. The 3780U has a base of 2.3 and max boost of 4.0https://www.amd.com/en/processors/ryzen-surface-ed...
And then individual pages for each with cache sizes, GPU frequencies, etc.
https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-37...
https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-35...
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Oh nice. They must have just put those up. Thanks!brakdoo - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
What's the reason for two SF Laptop 3 15's? Ice-Lake shortage? Seems weird.Regarding the Ryzen power consumption: the latest Ryzen-laptop tests on notebookcheck have shown very promising results. The Lenovo E495 and T495s consume about the same or even less than the E490 and T490s with Intel CPUs and same battery (simulating surfing over WiFi).
HelenJBurger - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
sherazHelenJBurger - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
The Ryzen models are interesting. I'll need to find the perfect penguin sticker to cover that Windows logo on the lid.Frenetic Pony - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Awful displays, as always. If I bought this to replace my SP3 it'd still be the only non hdr device I own.I guess I'll wait till this years iPad Pro, if that gets a good keyboard attachment then away to Apple it is.
Hulk - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
I have a Surface 2 laptop. I like it, no major complaints.But the SSD/CPU upgrade prices Microsoft charges are absolutely ridiculous! $200 to upgrade from 128GB to 256GB! And since laptops are basically not upgrade-able (or even repaired for the most part) Microsoft knows some people will pay the outrageous upgrade prices. They should also realize most will not.
I was for sure thinking the $999 "base" Surface 3 laptop would include a 256GB SSD... but I was wrong.
andrewaggb - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Completely agree. the upgrade prices are completely unreasonable as are the base configurations.128 GB Core i5 8GB RAM: $999 ('Maybe' 128gb is reasonable for a minimum tablet configuration but it's not reasonable for a laptop, get rid of it.)
256 GB Intel Core i5 with 8GB of RAM: $1299 (should be the base option, at either 999 or 1099)
256 GB Intel Core i7 with 8GB of RAM: $1599 (pointless - get rid of this)
512 GB Intel Core i7 with 16GB of RAM: $2199 (should be 1299-1599)
1 TB Intel Core i7 with 16GB of RAM: $2699 (should be 1999 max)
kenansadhu - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
I bought the 128 Gb version for $800 on black friday last year. Which is to say, I agree somewhat with you. For $1000, it's unreasonable. For $800, I'll make do with the low storage since it has incredible build, keyboard, screen, and battery. (Think about it, even when people are buying the $2500 version, they are getting the same thing in those areas).rrinker - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Everyone says not enough - maybe not for YOUR use case, but for most people, actually it IS plenty. I am using less than 128GB of my 256GB C drive in my laptop, with a full Windows 10, Full Office install (including Access and Visio), SQL server, Visual Studio with VB and VC, applications for electronic design (schematic capture and PCB layout), CAD software for model railroads, cached data for both work and personal OneDrive accounts, and more. About 2GB is my Outlook local cache. If I took all personal stuff off this laptop and used it JUST for work - I'd be using MAYBE half of a 128GB SSD.In the end - no, 128GB is not enough for me, either. BUT - if this was for an office worker, who needs to work on Word documents, Excel spreadsheets, and email, plus maybe have a couple of alternative browsers installed (forgot those, I have Chrome and Opera installed too), 128GB is actually plenty, as is 8GB RAM. My main desktop at home has 16GB, but I have one at my workbench that I use to run electronic tools, write code, and do circuit design, and I bult that with an I3, and no discrete GPU and it handles 3D board views in the EDA program just fine. a measley 2 core/4 thread, and 8GB. A 7th gen I3 to boot, it's a couple years old now. No, it's not 'sexy', higher end hardware would make the system a lot 'cooler' but the thing is, it is properly sized to the task, not built as the ultimate in hardware that I could put together. OMG, it even uses the stock Intel cooler, because it's in no way overclocked or stressed. No, it does not play games, but that's what the 4c/8t other machine with 16GB and a discrete graphics card is for.
Sometimes you have to take of the enthusiast hat and put on the realist hat. Not everyone, actually the majority, do not need double digit core counts and multiple TB of storage, or turbos that go to 5GHz. Those things are appealing - but simply not needed by most.
Dug - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Microsoft has also confirmed that the M.2 SSD is replaceable.Although they said they don't want people to do it, isn't going to stop anyone.
I would get the lowest ssd choice and use it for a backup drive and put in a 2TB.
andrewaggb - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
We'll have to see how easy it is change it. Is it a few regular screws? or more exotic torx screws? Or are we using a heatgun, suction cups and guitar picks....s.yu - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
I think the heatgun approach is worth it considering the premium they're asking.Sttm - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Wait so I can get a 10nm Intel part or a 12nm AMD? Laptops exist in bizzaro world.Cooe - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
The former is certainly going to cost significantly more, and be VASTLY more supply limited (Ice Lake shortages are VERY real), so it's really not that bizarre at all.Hul8 - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Even if they had the same number of nm, that would be meaningless, since numbers from different foundry companies aren't comparable.Everyone uses the process node that makes sense to them. Just concentrate on the performance, power and cost. (Then maybe *explain* some of the results by the whole of the process node - not just the number before the nm.)
s.yu - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
"Even if they had the same number of nm, that would be meaningless, since numbers from different foundry companies aren't comparable."...Yeah, and TSMC's 10nm isn't even as dense as Intel's 10nm, maybe 14 with a few +'s.
id4andrei - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Hey Ryan, other sites report that there is no 15" Intel option. Only AMD. Are you sure MS is offering a 15" Intel option?eva02langley - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Yeah, Ice Lake is the entry level model, Anandtech made a mistake.MS website is showing such.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/configure/Su...
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Thanks for asking. As far as things go, Microsoft's own press material distinctly lists multiple Intel configurations for the 15-inch laptop. Their website has been kind of a mess today, so I suspect they're still trying to sort that out.tecknohow - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Hey Ryan, from what I'm reading Intel on the 15" is for corporate SKUs and AMD is for consumer SKU.LarsBars - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
It's really unclear if there will be 15" Intel models. I wonder if there is going to be a delayed-release for 15" Intel models or something.Duncan Macdonald - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Overpriced and with unnecessary penny pinching in the design. At this price a full HD camera (if not 4k) should be included. More USB ports should also have been provided. If this follows previous surface laptops design then it will be very difficult or impossible to repair (even to replace the battery).This seems to be a posers laptop
s.yu - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Well, Surface has always been like this. Want more ports in an ultraportable? VAIO SX12. Still comes with RJ45 and VGA.https://www.notebookcheck.net/VAIO-launches-SX12-u...
flgt - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Can you charge through the USB-C port?eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Feels weird to almost defend Microsoft here, but it's really up to AMD to get a move on and get mobile Ryzen 2+ in 7 nm up and running already. Yes, MS is hedging against Intel's shortages here, but the Ryzen laptops would be a much more competitive (superior) alternative if both CPU and GPU would be mobile versions of AMD's newest and hottest offerings. As it is, not bad, but won't put Intel out to pasture in Surface land.Hul8 - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
I think this is due to cost. They *are* inexpensive, after all.Not concentrating huge manpower to the design (to get them out the door within a couple of months of the CPUs with the same CPU tech), then manufacturing on the previous process node, may allow considerable savings. This is especially true if they continue to manufacture monolithic dies, in which case yields with equally mature process node would be inferior to the more splintered CPUs, due to the larger size.
Also, AMD has plans to have APUs in laptops, and the design and engineering of those requires APU samples to be ready well in advance. This would require the APUs to be mostly ready *before* the CPUs, even if you were to release them slightly later.
eastcoast_pete - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
I know this is the Surface laptop preview, but no mention of the Pro X ? As exciting as having a Surface laptop finally available with Ryzen is (!), the Pro X might just be the watershed moment for Windows on ARM. Time for Intel to get some real competition in the ultra-low power space. Looking forward to your review of that thing; maybe it'll surprise us, and shake Intel up.s.yu - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Sounds like another...Chromebook or something.domboy - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
My thoughts exactly. This Anandtech reader is most interested in the Surface Pro X, not the laptop. I'm hoping they're at least review it since they completely ignored it on launch day.soliloquist - Thursday, October 10, 2019 - link
It was disappointing that there was no launch day coverage of the SPX or SP7. Just a quick concise recap would have been nice.isthisavailable - Wednesday, October 2, 2019 - link
Does the USB C port support charging!?mobutu - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
"the 15-inch laptop will top out at 512GB""32GB/1024GB/R7: $2799"
ofc the 15" laptop will have 1TB storage option.
CiccioB - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
Ah, AMD smart move!This is not a custom APU at all, just a better binned old one with an extra CU enabled.
This move is required to get a bit of oxygen to the custom & IP voice in Q4 results as it is probably going to punge to the minimum ever.
As long as Ryzen good incomes manage to cover GPU black holes, there's room to make other milking financial maneuvers.
lilkwarrior - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
No 32GB Ram option is extremely disappointingdontlistentome - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
No Thunderbolt = my standard handout at work remains the X1 Carbon. We use thunderbolt docks and dual 27" screens - USB C doesn't work where those screens are 4K. Shame as i'd like to have got myself one to trial to see if they've (finally) sorted the firmware sleep issues I had on an SP4.s.yu - Thursday, October 3, 2019 - link
I like how the spec sheet is done, previously some cells with the exact same contents weren't merged, and were tiresome to look at having to read the same content more than once.francescop1 - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
Give me the surface pro with an integrated thunderbolt 3 chip and i'm game.Sonnyshogun - Friday, October 4, 2019 - link
I have two questions:1. Why is it that the AMD versions of the Laptop 3 does not have WiFi6?
2. Will the surface dock be upgraded to support USB-C?
Thanks in advance for any answers or thoughts to these questions
Butterfish - Saturday, October 12, 2019 - link
The answer to the first question is pretty easy. Ice Lake has Integrated support for Wi-Fi 6 while the Ryzen APU didn’t.Emmonstein - Thursday, October 10, 2019 - link
If I can't seamlessly stream my Microsoft Windows Desktop to my Surface Pro X wherever I might be, I will be severely disappointed.